Kellerdad,
I enjoyed your post very much! I got your pm, but got stuck at blue 4 with jerseydad! When I went to red field I bumped into the Clemson guys, who I think were watching your team but game was over.
I know a lot of players in our local area who were relatively unkown and seen there and got great opportunities.
Schools from everywhere attend, from the big powerhouses to the smaller schools to the Ivy's.
If they are not there, they have a scout wathcign for them. I met scouts from several different organizations and top advisors were there as well.
Not every pitcher (in fact very few) throw 90+, so do not say if you do not hit 90, that you won't get noticed.
The object is to win, but do know that if that doesn't happen you get noticed anyway. One HSBBW parent told me his son was taking batting practice and being watched by a recruiter.
For us, it was local, so we did not have the expenses most incur. The second year son played there, as an already committed player, played a smaller role while the unsigned pitchers got a chance to show their stuff. And beleive it or not, a lessor known pitcher stole the show and is now a top ranked SEC pitcher.
FO,
Good post. We were fortunate to have been there twice and both times were great, and an experience we or our son will never forget.
Just so everybody knows, my son's team went to win games, but I believe they were realistic that they weren't going to win it all.
My son is the type of player that wants to win at anything he does, doesn't matter if it's bowling or baseball.
The event is a "must do" if you have a truely talented kid. I must say that if he isn't over 6', he may blend in. (My son is 5'10" in cleats)
Although, as FO says, it's a long haul process. A coach came to watch my son play two games this weekend, he wanted to confirm what his recruiting cordinator told him....and will probably get an offer from them.
My "other son" was watched all four games by a school that he attended their summer camp. The head coach watched 2 games and then their assistant came and watched the other two.
It's all about making them feel comfortable with their initial skill review. It could also work the other way and you could show them something that they didn't want to see.
My son is the type of player that wants to win at anything he does, doesn't matter if it's bowling or baseball.
The event is a "must do" if you have a truely talented kid. I must say that if he isn't over 6', he may blend in. (My son is 5'10" in cleats)
Although, as FO says, it's a long haul process. A coach came to watch my son play two games this weekend, he wanted to confirm what his recruiting cordinator told him....and will probably get an offer from them.
My "other son" was watched all four games by a school that he attended their summer camp. The head coach watched 2 games and then their assistant came and watched the other two.
It's all about making them feel comfortable with their initial skill review. It could also work the other way and you could show them something that they didn't want to see.
quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
If you have the academic qaulifications for an Ivy League school, you will recieve a letter of recognization long before they see you on the field.
My son is in his junior year at Dartmouth (an Ivy League school), on the baseball roster, and was recruited by the head baseball coach. I can categorically refute KG's statement. My son never received any publications or letters of interest from Dartmouth admissions prior to being seen on the playing field by the Dartmouth coach. Caoch saw my son play at the Stanford camp.
Contrary to KG's theme of posts here, Jupiter, the Stanford camp, etc... offer excellent opportunities to be seen by college coaches who otherwise would not see you play. It is not JUST the local connections you make through DBAT or Sam Carpenter, although those connections are extremely valuable. It CAN happen on the field at a showcase event.
Gotta agree with dbg_fan on this one.
Son's first contact was after the AZ Fall Showcase.
Course we are out here in the "boonies".
As for showcase/tournament mentalities, I wasn't knowledgable way back when about PG and their organization otherwise I would have made every attempt to get son there.
Their showcase is a tournament format which lends itself to winning which gets anyone playing a lot more visibility with the scouts/coaches. The AZ showcase is a set game format where X number of games are guaranteed. The coaches of course love to win, but the better ones also realize it's about showcasing the players.
I think I've told this story before. We had a LHP from Denver who had only played on his HS summer team and never traveled. This was his first time to a showcase. He's about 6'3" and threw 88-92. Once he set foot on the mound the scouts were all over themselves, walkie talkies and cell phones going trying to get their cohorts there to see him. He begins by throwing change-ups and curves and sliders trying to get outs which he did, 3 up, 3 down. In between innings one scout goes to their dugout and tells him they (the scouts) could care less who wins, they are there to see his FB and he better start throwing it! Coach was a little put out, but in the end realized it is more about the kids and not their won-loss record. Had it been a true tournament, I'm sure things may have been different.
BTW, no offers before showcase, after showcase he was drafted in the later rounds and after many offers ended up at TN.
So, while I can see both sides, ultimately it is about the kids. Don't know of any scouts who were there to see the coaches coach.
Son's first contact was after the AZ Fall Showcase.
Course we are out here in the "boonies".
As for showcase/tournament mentalities, I wasn't knowledgable way back when about PG and their organization otherwise I would have made every attempt to get son there.
Their showcase is a tournament format which lends itself to winning which gets anyone playing a lot more visibility with the scouts/coaches. The AZ showcase is a set game format where X number of games are guaranteed. The coaches of course love to win, but the better ones also realize it's about showcasing the players.
I think I've told this story before. We had a LHP from Denver who had only played on his HS summer team and never traveled. This was his first time to a showcase. He's about 6'3" and threw 88-92. Once he set foot on the mound the scouts were all over themselves, walkie talkies and cell phones going trying to get their cohorts there to see him. He begins by throwing change-ups and curves and sliders trying to get outs which he did, 3 up, 3 down. In between innings one scout goes to their dugout and tells him they (the scouts) could care less who wins, they are there to see his FB and he better start throwing it! Coach was a little put out, but in the end realized it is more about the kids and not their won-loss record. Had it been a true tournament, I'm sure things may have been different.
BTW, no offers before showcase, after showcase he was drafted in the later rounds and after many offers ended up at TN.
So, while I can see both sides, ultimately it is about the kids. Don't know of any scouts who were there to see the coaches coach.
We had a number of our boys talked to by college coaches while at Jupiter and in some cases offers were made---in fact I hear, I have not confirmed it yet, one committed to a major Big East program today
I agree with dbg, my son received letters from Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, etc after Jupiter.
All very falttering but he was not Ivy League material, but he DID get noticed.
Also regarding the comment made if your son is a pitcher, going to such an event is the wrong approach..wrong, my son, pitcher only, was noticed. Although noticed as a local talented player since early HS, Jupiter allowed him to be sen by many out of state schools that may not have seen him otherwise. I am not sure where you get your information from, or why you have come to this conclusion.
Getting noticed CAN happen in ONE outing, right time, right place, if you choose those places wisely, it works.
And the comment about roster fillers, are you saying there exists only two type of players, studs and fillers?
Do you think that a coach is just looking for one or two players to fill up his roster? I don't get your logic or your attitude. 
All very falttering but he was not Ivy League material, but he DID get noticed.
Also regarding the comment made if your son is a pitcher, going to such an event is the wrong approach..wrong, my son, pitcher only, was noticed. Although noticed as a local talented player since early HS, Jupiter allowed him to be sen by many out of state schools that may not have seen him otherwise. I am not sure where you get your information from, or why you have come to this conclusion.
Getting noticed CAN happen in ONE outing, right time, right place, if you choose those places wisely, it works.
And the comment about roster fillers, are you saying there exists only two type of players, studs and fillers?
Thought about trying to discuss this but I will sit this one out.
On my way to Illinois for a hunting trip with some guys who kinda got noticed.
You all need to re read my posts. Some have taken my words in a different direction.
On my way to Illinois for a hunting trip with some guys who kinda got noticed.
You all need to re read my posts. Some have taken my words in a different direction.
PG STAFF
You have a P.M.
You have a P.M.
Congratulations Texas Forum -- posters visit from other states to send alerts to PG STAFF because they know he will be watching here. 
Out-of-state posters -- you're always welcome!
Out-of-state posters -- you're always welcome!
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Congratulations Texas Forum -- posters visit from other states to send alerts to PG STAFF because they know he will be watching here.
Out-of-state posters -- you're always welcome!
No offense TPM, just joking about sulltiger's post to PG STAFF.
Texan, got your PM and appreciate your thoughts. Tried to reply but I am new and not sure how that works.
From a lot of the post's here I see some agree that Showcases are a great platform to be seen which re emphasizes my point about teams carrying 18 to 20 guys and 8 or 10 pitchers diluting all of their opportunities to be seen playing.
My son did go to the WWBA Atlanta last year as I stated and only got 4 innings and for that being his first time I am fine with that. This year he will be there as a 17 yr old and my point is the team we are with may be planning the same type of "guess who gets to pitch today" and my hope is he gets more of an opportunity at all the showcase events and not just a couple of innings now and again because we have to pitch 8 guys in 4 or 5 games.
My whole reasoning for bouncing this topic around is to see how many players are on teams who have real rotations for their pitchers and don't bring on a bunch of "guest pitchers" compared to teams who really have no rotation, don't communicate well how they handle pitching opportunities thereby leaving the player always wondering when and how long they get to pitch.
Again I feel in this particular year it should be more about getting players a fair amount of time to be seen at all showcase events compared to loading up and just going to get W's and forget about players and their need for some exposure and especially for those who are primarily there to pitch. You only get this opportunity in your junior to senior summer and maybe that fall if your son is not also a football player so this is a very important period in your son's life for his future opportunities in college.
From a lot of the post's here I see some agree that Showcases are a great platform to be seen which re emphasizes my point about teams carrying 18 to 20 guys and 8 or 10 pitchers diluting all of their opportunities to be seen playing.
My son did go to the WWBA Atlanta last year as I stated and only got 4 innings and for that being his first time I am fine with that. This year he will be there as a 17 yr old and my point is the team we are with may be planning the same type of "guess who gets to pitch today" and my hope is he gets more of an opportunity at all the showcase events and not just a couple of innings now and again because we have to pitch 8 guys in 4 or 5 games.
My whole reasoning for bouncing this topic around is to see how many players are on teams who have real rotations for their pitchers and don't bring on a bunch of "guest pitchers" compared to teams who really have no rotation, don't communicate well how they handle pitching opportunities thereby leaving the player always wondering when and how long they get to pitch.
Again I feel in this particular year it should be more about getting players a fair amount of time to be seen at all showcase events compared to loading up and just going to get W's and forget about players and their need for some exposure and especially for those who are primarily there to pitch. You only get this opportunity in your junior to senior summer and maybe that fall if your son is not also a football player so this is a very important period in your son's life for his future opportunities in college.
Pantherdad,
I didn't see that.
planoball,
You bring up some good points.
Just my two cents. All coaches want to win at these showcase/tournaments. Like any other game, they will most likely match their best pitchers against the best teams they have to play, same as they would do in any other game situation. I see that on the schedule in Jupiter, pitchers are announced in advance. This is for the benefit, I assume for the scouts and coaches. And for the tournament directors as well, so they will not have to take many calls asking who is pitching when, where, etc.
Like any other game, if a pitcher is doing well he might be kept in the game, if not he is out. I remember going to Jupiter and bringing lots of arms, because you just never know when you need them, especially towards the end.
As a parent, before one decides to send their son, I would not be afraid to ask how they plan to use your pitcher or pitchers. I remember that sons coaches told us in A MEETING PROIR to large fall tournaments, 3-4 innings would be the max. One, because many have to go home to pitch in fall ball and two, because of summer schedule some need to cut down on their work load and three, so everyone got a chance to be seen.
Another thing, our pitchers were always told, you must be there as a team everyday, whether you pitch or not. Coach was pretty strict aobut that stuff.
I didn't see that.
planoball,
You bring up some good points.
Just my two cents. All coaches want to win at these showcase/tournaments. Like any other game, they will most likely match their best pitchers against the best teams they have to play, same as they would do in any other game situation. I see that on the schedule in Jupiter, pitchers are announced in advance. This is for the benefit, I assume for the scouts and coaches. And for the tournament directors as well, so they will not have to take many calls asking who is pitching when, where, etc.
Like any other game, if a pitcher is doing well he might be kept in the game, if not he is out. I remember going to Jupiter and bringing lots of arms, because you just never know when you need them, especially towards the end.
As a parent, before one decides to send their son, I would not be afraid to ask how they plan to use your pitcher or pitchers. I remember that sons coaches told us in A MEETING PROIR to large fall tournaments, 3-4 innings would be the max. One, because many have to go home to pitch in fall ball and two, because of summer schedule some need to cut down on their work load and three, so everyone got a chance to be seen.
Another thing, our pitchers were always told, you must be there as a team everyday, whether you pitch or not. Coach was pretty strict aobut that stuff.
Thanks TP Mom, appreciate your feedback. I understand on the less amount of innings pitched deal when other games are coming up or to save an arm from overpitching. My son is in football right now so we pull out of all fall ball showcases right now.
Next year I guess son will have to decide which way he is going so fall ball may come into play. He is planning a much more involved off season baseball program though and should come into HS ball better prepared which would hopefully carry over to summer ball.
If our team coaches would post when pitchers would pitch or be more predictable on a rotation like you mentioned it would make it easier to plan and prepare.
Also, I know what the coaches want in a team member being at all games and my son knows how to be a "role" player. However again as the earlier post's state about pitchers, they and their parents pay the same as position players, pay for hotel days, flights, drives etc etc so they are at least owed time on the field top pitch as long as they are "in the game" holding their own and not have that time given to either "guest" pitchers or PT pitchers who really play another position better and just pitch ok ball.
As for the win being most important I still say a 14 player team that plays well together, made up of top notch players can hold their own and play very well, they may just not win it all because of the teams that come with 20 only to win and not let some of their players get an opportunity to shime and be seen.
Next year I guess son will have to decide which way he is going so fall ball may come into play. He is planning a much more involved off season baseball program though and should come into HS ball better prepared which would hopefully carry over to summer ball.
If our team coaches would post when pitchers would pitch or be more predictable on a rotation like you mentioned it would make it easier to plan and prepare.
Also, I know what the coaches want in a team member being at all games and my son knows how to be a "role" player. However again as the earlier post's state about pitchers, they and their parents pay the same as position players, pay for hotel days, flights, drives etc etc so they are at least owed time on the field top pitch as long as they are "in the game" holding their own and not have that time given to either "guest" pitchers or PT pitchers who really play another position better and just pitch ok ball.
As for the win being most important I still say a 14 player team that plays well together, made up of top notch players can hold their own and play very well, they may just not win it all because of the teams that come with 20 only to win and not let some of their players get an opportunity to shime and be seen.
planoball34,
You bring up some very good points. I'd like to respond to you regarding the pitchers at Showcase type events. Unfortunately I don't have time to do it right now. Maybe tomorrow.
You bring up some very good points. I'd like to respond to you regarding the pitchers at Showcase type events. Unfortunately I don't have time to do it right now. Maybe tomorrow.
This is a complex subject. The key thing at the East Cobb or Jupiter tournaments -- to maximize the opportunities for your team -- is to make it to the championship bracket. That's when you play at the "premier" fields in front of the most scouts/coaches. We certainly learned that in Georgia. So, you have to have the depth to win early in the week while saving pitching for 4-5 games in 2 or possibly 3 championship days. But it's even more complicated than that --- you have to take players that put your team on the radar screen....kids that the coaches want to see. When 12 guys come to see Matt Lackey pitch (an example), there are 12 guys there to see my son play. It was my observation that the best teams in East Cobb last summer (at 17U) pitched 2-3 guys in each game early in the week to save innings. Their depth allowed it. They rolled the dice on the "continuity" of each game. Dirtbags, for instance --- pitched 3-4 guys in the 3rd pool game as it got closer to the 2nd weekend. Oh, and if your team is 16, playing up ---- don't refer to yourselves as HOTGUYS16! <-- let them figure it out.
It's a thrill for the kids to play against the best, and one of the reasons we do this summer thing, eh? Playing against the best at the PG events requires an extended stay. To extend your stay, you have to win. These kids want to win every game anyway, most are willing to sacrifice their "opportunities" to win.
Having typed all this...I certainly do not disagree with a pitching schedule whenever possible. There are certainly ways to approach the tournaments with a plan (probably good to have plans B and C ready also). How many pitchers does a team need to play 50 innings in the course of a week, with the multi-game days stacked at the end and no days off? The teams that win these things find the right formula.
It's a thrill for the kids to play against the best, and one of the reasons we do this summer thing, eh? Playing against the best at the PG events requires an extended stay. To extend your stay, you have to win. These kids want to win every game anyway, most are willing to sacrifice their "opportunities" to win.
Having typed all this...I certainly do not disagree with a pitching schedule whenever possible. There are certainly ways to approach the tournaments with a plan (probably good to have plans B and C ready also). How many pitchers does a team need to play 50 innings in the course of a week, with the multi-game days stacked at the end and no days off? The teams that win these things find the right formula.
I take my teams to places that have the most exposure. We take our 15 year olds the Junior Olympics every year knowing that there is a chance that we may have a player or two selected to the Olympic trials team. If you look on our Alumni list (www.dallastigers.org), you will see several of our players on the USA team. One year, two of my three catchers were selected. Did we hate losing them for part of the summer? Of course. When asked if they could take one or both players I said take them both. That was best for the kid. We will never, ever hold any player back from opening doors to better their careers. We have had great success and have a great relationship with every college coach in the country that I have come in contact with because they know we will do everything in our power to push our players. As for perfect game, it is the top showcase tournament in the country. We take Tiger players. My goal is to help every kid in the club. If we need a position player for that tournament, we do not go outside the club. We will send a sophmore or freshman if we have to. For example, Jonathan Walsh, catcher at Coppell H.S., went to Jupiter as an 8th grader. He started one game, played three innings and received letters from couple different colleges a week later. That's what it's all about. As for carrying a big roster, the Dallas Tigers made it to the final game in Jupiter one year with 12 players. Enough said. Many clubs do not enter the Junior Olymic tournament fearing that they may lose their better players. That's all I've got. Get your kid with a group that is going to do what's best for your child.
Have a nice day.
Have a nice day.
quote:Originally posted by hernandez:
I take my teams to places that have the most exposure. We take our 15 year olds the Junior Olympics every year knowing that there is a chance that we may have a player or two selected to the Olympic trials team. If you look on our Alumni list (www.dallastigers.org), you will see several of our players on the USA team. One year, two of my three catchers were selected. Did we hate losing them for part of the summer? Of course. When asked if they could take one or both players I said take them both. That was best for the kid. We will never, ever hold any player back from opening doors to better their careers. We have had great success and have a great relationship with every college coach in the country that I have come in contact with because they know we will do everything in our power to push our players. As for perfect game, it is the top showcase tournament in the country. We take Tiger players. My goal is to help every kid in the club. If we need a position player for that tournament, we do not go outside the club. We will send a sophmore or freshman if we have to. For example, Jonathan Walsh, catcher at Coppell H.S., went to Jupiter as an 8th grader. He started one game, played three innings and received letters from couple different colleges a week later. That's what it's all about. As for carrying a big roster, the Dallas Tigers made it to the final game in Jupiter one year with 12 players. Enough said. Many clubs do not enter the Junior Olymic tournament fearing that they may lose their better players. That's all I've got. Get your kid with a group that is going to do what's best for your child.
Have a nice day.
Good stuff PD and hernadez, duly noted. From all I read here the very big events such as Jupiter and Cobb seem to require a lot of players, the college events and smaller venues may be a better target for exposure if your main team is one who gives little time to its pitchers and the pitcher development over a season.
In the year of exposure (upcoming seniors) I cannot get away from the mentality that I need to insure my son has opportunities to be seen. Hopefully the summer team he plays for will communicate better as to their plans so we can make an educated decision on how to supplement his exposure if they plan to do what they did last season.
Even the pro teams have about 5 starters and good bull pen's to back them up, I just don't get this dilution theory in such critical years for recruiting.
I will say this, the Cobb WWBA event was one of the best I have seen and I am sure it is one of the best venues for your son to be a part of. Look forward to seeing it again.
In the year of exposure (upcoming seniors) I cannot get away from the mentality that I need to insure my son has opportunities to be seen. Hopefully the summer team he plays for will communicate better as to their plans so we can make an educated decision on how to supplement his exposure if they plan to do what they did last season.
Even the pro teams have about 5 starters and good bull pen's to back them up, I just don't get this dilution theory in such critical years for recruiting.
I will say this, the Cobb WWBA event was one of the best I have seen and I am sure it is one of the best venues for your son to be a part of. Look forward to seeing it again.
It's a long ride, plano.
Keep your arms inside the car and hold on.
It'll all work out.
Play high school ball.
Play on a reputable summer team.
Make at least one PG showcase.
And, maybe other regional showcases at the colleges, etc.
Follow the timeline on this website.
Their are many more things that can hold your son back than innings pitched at one showcase in the summer.
Most of the recruiting an signing goes on right here in our backyard.
Look at the rosters around our state and in other states.
Most ballplayers don't stray out of state.
Not many better places to play than right here in Texas.
You don't have to go to Florida to get recruited to play in Texas.
Keep your arms inside the car and hold on.
It'll all work out.
Play high school ball.
Play on a reputable summer team.
Make at least one PG showcase.
And, maybe other regional showcases at the colleges, etc.
Follow the timeline on this website.
Their are many more things that can hold your son back than innings pitched at one showcase in the summer.
Most of the recruiting an signing goes on right here in our backyard.
Look at the rosters around our state and in other states.
Most ballplayers don't stray out of state.
Not many better places to play than right here in Texas.
You don't have to go to Florida to get recruited to play in Texas.
I have been reading this topic for the past few days now with much interest. Although in Texas forum, very valuable input for EVERYONE. I know most of this discussion has been in regards to pitchers, however, in large tournaments (Jupiter)this scenario can happen to position players as well. It's a very delicate balance between having enough players to make it through the tournament and being fair to all involved (with the amount of time and money involved, not to mention that a player may be asked to play on a few different teams, only to choose one and sit the bench). I feel as if I have alot of experience with communication with coaches, and asking the right questions. But all of that means nothing once you're at the tournament.
I think this a a VERY difficult position for a coach to be in, but I truly believe the best way to handle it is by the coaches being up front with intentions. Maybe that's asking too much? Maybe they feel they have to say certain things to get players? My son plays 3 positions, bats 3rd/4th and pitches and usually plays every inning on whatever team he's on HOWEVER I know there are tournaments that my son would still go to even if told he'd be a "back up" player. He's young and would still get experience by watching, who knows... maybe get a chance to prove himself. However, if a player is told he'll play, has expectations, then doesn't - it's MISERABLE. Nothing like sitting on the bench watching the Starters make error after error, knowing they will play no matter what. And the coach touting that everyone got playing time, when alot of kids played in consolation game (no scouts present, but hey, it's counted as playing time.)Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but I do believe there are some situations that teams with fees may bring along extra players in order to collect more money. I hate to think that, but I have heard that on more than one occasion.
In Wisconsin, there aren't alot of choices, so players must often fill in on other teams. I've learned the hard way that no matter what's said ahead of time, it really doesn't matter. And joining a team where the majority already plays together may not lead to the best kids being put on the field. I think even the best, most respected coaches may at times fall into this scenario. It's hard for a coach to see both sides and easy for a coach to claim the player just has "sour grape" syndrome over the entire matter. When things fall apart, there's ALOT of finger pointing.
I've heard of parents "demanding" a "guarantee" of innings played. I thought this was ludricous, the coach should make ALL decisions, depending on the circumstances. I wouldn't want to be "that kind" of parent, I thought, let my kid earn it. But now looking back I wonder if that parent was the smart one.
I don't have much advice to everyone on this because I thought I had this dilemma "handled". I do think, if possible, that it's best to play with a team you've played with before and are confident in your role. Other than that, don't have high expectations and if you get a chance, take advantage of it. While true that EVERY PLAYER there will contribute, even if by being there "just in case" or cheering from the bench, it's easier to play your role if you TRULY know what your role will be.
I expect some backlash from this post, but I think it's important for people to consider ALL sides. My experience may help someone else.
I think this a a VERY difficult position for a coach to be in, but I truly believe the best way to handle it is by the coaches being up front with intentions. Maybe that's asking too much? Maybe they feel they have to say certain things to get players? My son plays 3 positions, bats 3rd/4th and pitches and usually plays every inning on whatever team he's on HOWEVER I know there are tournaments that my son would still go to even if told he'd be a "back up" player. He's young and would still get experience by watching, who knows... maybe get a chance to prove himself. However, if a player is told he'll play, has expectations, then doesn't - it's MISERABLE. Nothing like sitting on the bench watching the Starters make error after error, knowing they will play no matter what. And the coach touting that everyone got playing time, when alot of kids played in consolation game (no scouts present, but hey, it's counted as playing time.)Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but I do believe there are some situations that teams with fees may bring along extra players in order to collect more money. I hate to think that, but I have heard that on more than one occasion.
In Wisconsin, there aren't alot of choices, so players must often fill in on other teams. I've learned the hard way that no matter what's said ahead of time, it really doesn't matter. And joining a team where the majority already plays together may not lead to the best kids being put on the field. I think even the best, most respected coaches may at times fall into this scenario. It's hard for a coach to see both sides and easy for a coach to claim the player just has "sour grape" syndrome over the entire matter. When things fall apart, there's ALOT of finger pointing.
I've heard of parents "demanding" a "guarantee" of innings played. I thought this was ludricous, the coach should make ALL decisions, depending on the circumstances. I wouldn't want to be "that kind" of parent, I thought, let my kid earn it. But now looking back I wonder if that parent was the smart one.
I don't have much advice to everyone on this because I thought I had this dilemma "handled". I do think, if possible, that it's best to play with a team you've played with before and are confident in your role. Other than that, don't have high expectations and if you get a chance, take advantage of it. While true that EVERY PLAYER there will contribute, even if by being there "just in case" or cheering from the bench, it's easier to play your role if you TRULY know what your role will be.
I expect some backlash from this post, but I think it's important for people to consider ALL sides. My experience may help someone else.
Here is a reply to an earlier post in this thread by “planoball34. This is just my opinion and I sure don’t expect everyone to agree. I think “planoball has some very valid points, just thought I’d give another perspective. FWIW
This is more about the normal Showcase type events than something like a big tournament. I sure do expect to see kids who have the major interest be winning at the tournaments. Winning seems to create the very most interest in the individual players IMO
Note: Good posts by “hernandez” and everyone else! Tommie Hernandez has a well deserved, long standing, great reputation for helping young players.
Here is the post by planoball
My opinion FWIW
Pitchers at Showcase type events…
Often we hear parents concerns over the lack of time pitchers get at showcases compared to position players.
In order to compare the two there are a couple things to consider. First, the time pitchers throw at these events they are the absolute most visible player on the field. Second, pitchers receive more recruiting and scouting interest than any position on the field. Third, other than testing endurance, what can a pitcher show after a couple of innings on the mound?
You could play an entire game without seeing the Shortstop or Centerfielder have a play. The pitcher is involved in the play each and every pitch. So we might see the shortstop do nothing but get a few at bats in a game, while we see a pitcher throw 30-40 pitches. Which of these two is getting the most exposure and opportunity?
Yes, they pay the same as position players, but many argue that the showcase events are geared for pitchers more than position players. Of course all of this stuff revolves around the player or pitchers talent. We have seen pitchers warm up and before they even throw a pitch, everyone knows that pitcher is a prospect. That is because of all the players on the field, the easiest guy to evaluate is the pitcher. Once a pitcher has shown his ability, he creates lots of interest and is followed very closely. So all the other things that a scout or recruiter might be looking for… endurance, poise, toughness, will be observed at some point. However, everything starts with that first look at the first pitch and how much talent a pitcher shows. IMO and many many others, if we are talking about a top prospect, the interest can be created or lost in the first inning on the mound. Yes it’s true that the finesse guys show much better over a whole game, but the goal of any player at a showcase event should be to create enough interest to be followed up on. Sometimes that interest he creates can be so high that the wheels turn quickly and he could receive immediate contact from recruiters and/or MLB scouts. Sometimes the player/pitcher just ends up on someone’s follow list and that is a good thing, too.
Do pitchers play as many innings as the others?.... NO
Are pitchers involved in more plays than the others? YES
Are pitchers on the center stage more than the others? YES
Do pitchers create more recruiting and scouting interest than others? YES
Do pitchers have more opportunity to be evaluated than others? YES
Do pitchers need to pitch an entire game to create interest? NO
Can a pitcher throw one inning and be the top prospect at an event? YES
The #1 prospect (named by us) at this year’s WWBA Championship in Jupiter threw 2 1/3 innings over two games. He only needed about half of that to show his talent.
We have discovered over the years that some position player parents think these showcase events are set up to benefit pitchers the most. At the same time we have noticed that some pitchers parents think the pitchers don’t get the opportunity that the position players get.
The bottom line when it comes to money paid… If your son has talent, it could be a bargain! If your son does not have the required talent and is already physically mature, you might be throwing your money out the window. It doesn’t take very long for a good scout or college recruiter to notice those with the most talent! So the value of attending most any event is determined by the player’s talent and projection.
Paying to attend an event only gets you the opportunity to create interest, it does not guarantee any specific results. The most talented players stick out like a sore thumb. For some it doesn’t work out that well. In the end that darn “game” gets in a lot of players way!
Finally, I’ve not once heard a player or parent complain about pitching more innings when their son just struck out the side using a live fastball and good breaking ball in front of those who evaluate players. Usually the concerns come from someone who has struggled in those two innings and didn’t show any promising pitch. I do understand the desire for another chance, but the pitcher who struggles has more chances than the pitcher who is very successful (more pitches).
Remember that a hitter playing the entire game could get 3 at bats and no balls hit to him. His “exposure” involves those three at bats for the most part and how he looks between innings. The pitcher will throw 40 pitches or more most often, those most successful less, those who struggle more. Every pitch is an opportunity to create interest. No one on the field other than the pitcher and possible the catcher will get that many opportunities to create interest.
Those with different view... Please take it easy.
This is more about the normal Showcase type events than something like a big tournament. I sure do expect to see kids who have the major interest be winning at the tournaments. Winning seems to create the very most interest in the individual players IMO
Note: Good posts by “hernandez” and everyone else! Tommie Hernandez has a well deserved, long standing, great reputation for helping young players.
Here is the post by planoball
quote:Thanks TP Mom, appreciate your feedback. I understand on the less amount of innings pitched deal when other games are coming up or to save an arm from overpitching. My son is in football right now so we pull out of all fall ball showcases right now.
Next year I guess son will have to decide which way he is going so fall ball may come into play. He is planning a much more involved off season baseball program though and should come into HS ball better prepared which would hopefully carry over to summer ball.
If our team coaches would post when pitchers would pitch or be more predictable on a rotation like you mentioned it would make it easier to plan and prepare.
Also, I know what the coaches want in a team member being at all games and my son knows how to be a "role" player. However again as the earlier post's state about pitchers, they and their parents pay the same as position players, pay for hotel days, flights, drives etc etc so they are at least owed time on the field top pitch as long as they are "in the game" holding their own and not have that time given to either "guest" pitchers or PT pitchers who really play another position better and just pitch ok ball.
As for the win being most important I still say a 14 player team that plays well together, made up of top notch players can hold their own and play very well, they may just not win it all because of the teams that come with 20 only to win and not let some of their players get an opportunity to shime and be seen.
My opinion FWIW
Pitchers at Showcase type events…
Often we hear parents concerns over the lack of time pitchers get at showcases compared to position players.
In order to compare the two there are a couple things to consider. First, the time pitchers throw at these events they are the absolute most visible player on the field. Second, pitchers receive more recruiting and scouting interest than any position on the field. Third, other than testing endurance, what can a pitcher show after a couple of innings on the mound?
You could play an entire game without seeing the Shortstop or Centerfielder have a play. The pitcher is involved in the play each and every pitch. So we might see the shortstop do nothing but get a few at bats in a game, while we see a pitcher throw 30-40 pitches. Which of these two is getting the most exposure and opportunity?
Yes, they pay the same as position players, but many argue that the showcase events are geared for pitchers more than position players. Of course all of this stuff revolves around the player or pitchers talent. We have seen pitchers warm up and before they even throw a pitch, everyone knows that pitcher is a prospect. That is because of all the players on the field, the easiest guy to evaluate is the pitcher. Once a pitcher has shown his ability, he creates lots of interest and is followed very closely. So all the other things that a scout or recruiter might be looking for… endurance, poise, toughness, will be observed at some point. However, everything starts with that first look at the first pitch and how much talent a pitcher shows. IMO and many many others, if we are talking about a top prospect, the interest can be created or lost in the first inning on the mound. Yes it’s true that the finesse guys show much better over a whole game, but the goal of any player at a showcase event should be to create enough interest to be followed up on. Sometimes that interest he creates can be so high that the wheels turn quickly and he could receive immediate contact from recruiters and/or MLB scouts. Sometimes the player/pitcher just ends up on someone’s follow list and that is a good thing, too.
Do pitchers play as many innings as the others?.... NO
Are pitchers involved in more plays than the others? YES
Are pitchers on the center stage more than the others? YES
Do pitchers create more recruiting and scouting interest than others? YES
Do pitchers have more opportunity to be evaluated than others? YES
Do pitchers need to pitch an entire game to create interest? NO
Can a pitcher throw one inning and be the top prospect at an event? YES
The #1 prospect (named by us) at this year’s WWBA Championship in Jupiter threw 2 1/3 innings over two games. He only needed about half of that to show his talent.
We have discovered over the years that some position player parents think these showcase events are set up to benefit pitchers the most. At the same time we have noticed that some pitchers parents think the pitchers don’t get the opportunity that the position players get.
The bottom line when it comes to money paid… If your son has talent, it could be a bargain! If your son does not have the required talent and is already physically mature, you might be throwing your money out the window. It doesn’t take very long for a good scout or college recruiter to notice those with the most talent! So the value of attending most any event is determined by the player’s talent and projection.
Paying to attend an event only gets you the opportunity to create interest, it does not guarantee any specific results. The most talented players stick out like a sore thumb. For some it doesn’t work out that well. In the end that darn “game” gets in a lot of players way!
Finally, I’ve not once heard a player or parent complain about pitching more innings when their son just struck out the side using a live fastball and good breaking ball in front of those who evaluate players. Usually the concerns come from someone who has struggled in those two innings and didn’t show any promising pitch. I do understand the desire for another chance, but the pitcher who struggles has more chances than the pitcher who is very successful (more pitches).
Remember that a hitter playing the entire game could get 3 at bats and no balls hit to him. His “exposure” involves those three at bats for the most part and how he looks between innings. The pitcher will throw 40 pitches or more most often, those most successful less, those who struggle more. Every pitch is an opportunity to create interest. No one on the field other than the pitcher and possible the catcher will get that many opportunities to create interest.
Those with different view... Please take it easy.
Hunt I think anyone who has gone through the baseball experience for several years has seen all that you talk about. This stuff happens everywhere to almost everyone. A big part of baseball is learning to handle all of the things you are experiencing.
Showcasing is a whole different experience. Most teams bring in extra players and I have seen this cause a lot of problems. Not all showcases have a win loss format but just play to show players skills. The Diamond Devils Showcase in Charleston SC is one that doesn't have a champion ship round for the reasons you state. They feel that if it is settup as a tournament players may not get a chance to play. I personally like the tournament style showcase but most of the teams are bolstered with extra players. I looked at the roster of the 18U Ontario Blue Jays who played in Jupiter and only recognized a couple players. That team won at East Cobb and I would bet it was a different roster.
It only gets worse in college ball.
Showcasing is a whole different experience. Most teams bring in extra players and I have seen this cause a lot of problems. Not all showcases have a win loss format but just play to show players skills. The Diamond Devils Showcase in Charleston SC is one that doesn't have a champion ship round for the reasons you state. They feel that if it is settup as a tournament players may not get a chance to play. I personally like the tournament style showcase but most of the teams are bolstered with extra players. I looked at the roster of the 18U Ontario Blue Jays who played in Jupiter and only recognized a couple players. That team won at East Cobb and I would bet it was a different roster.
It only gets worse in college ball.
quote:Those with different view... Please take it easy.
Even though my son is one of the "pitchers" you talk about, no differing view here. I think you are 100% right on.
PG Staff, that is some of the best perspective I have heard and adds encouragement to the process we are going through.
Hunt 19 your comments are well thought out also. This has been great feedback to a dilemma that I am sure hits a lot of folks during their ride down baseball avenue.
I've learned a lot from all the responses here and can use a lot of it to work with.
Last suggestion I would still make to the coaches on my son's team would be to better plan pitching outings and let the players know when they will pitch instead of guessing, use the primary pitchers more than 2 innings a game during the season and early tournaments so they can build skill and strength quicker and finally coach more pitching to the pitchers and provide feedback for them to work on. I can swallow this big tournament play time a lot more if I know that my son has at least been given coaching and enough pitching time to be at his best when his chance comes no matter how many innings he gets to pitch in 8 days.
Thanks again to you all for your input, this is a great site!!
Hunt 19 your comments are well thought out also. This has been great feedback to a dilemma that I am sure hits a lot of folks during their ride down baseball avenue.
I've learned a lot from all the responses here and can use a lot of it to work with.
Last suggestion I would still make to the coaches on my son's team would be to better plan pitching outings and let the players know when they will pitch instead of guessing, use the primary pitchers more than 2 innings a game during the season and early tournaments so they can build skill and strength quicker and finally coach more pitching to the pitchers and provide feedback for them to work on. I can swallow this big tournament play time a lot more if I know that my son has at least been given coaching and enough pitching time to be at his best when his chance comes no matter how many innings he gets to pitch in 8 days.
Thanks again to you all for your input, this is a great site!!
It's probably gonna cost more than you would ever spend to send a kid to college.
Don't even try to figure out how much it costs, much less on a per inning basis.
It'll drive you nuts.
On that college roster of 35, 15-20 of them are pitchers. Only about 3-5 pitch the majority of the innings. The rest of them run, throw bull pens, and stay home a lot on travel days. They usually annouce the weekend rotation about Wednesday, and it rarely works out that way.
Has to be brutal for family trying to catch a game.
Paying now for innings pitched.
Later might be paid for innings pitched.
Peformance eventually decides what's fair.......
Don't even try to figure out how much it costs, much less on a per inning basis.
It'll drive you nuts.
On that college roster of 35, 15-20 of them are pitchers. Only about 3-5 pitch the majority of the innings. The rest of them run, throw bull pens, and stay home a lot on travel days. They usually annouce the weekend rotation about Wednesday, and it rarely works out that way.
Has to be brutal for family trying to catch a game.
Paying now for innings pitched.
Later might be paid for innings pitched.
Peformance eventually decides what's fair.......
Periodically kids end up at showcase type events and there parents spend a lot of money and we don’t understand why. Obviously we don’t always see each player before he attends.
It doesn’t happen often, but sometimes a player or parent who attended our stuff is only trying to help someone else in his community and calls us, asking to let a certain player in to such and such event. Then we see the player and he really has no business spending money to attend the event he is at. We’ve seen pitchers who are seniors in high school topping out at 68-70 mph. People need to understand that we can’t help that player get a college scholarship let alone get drafted. It’s not the end of the world, but he might as well be at an NFL Combine. In reality his parents should be spending money allowing him a chance to improve his game rather than proving he is not ready. But US parents are not always very smart when it comes to accepting our sons true ability.
I really feel sorry for some of these kids who are put in these situations. I’ve talked to some of them and they’re no different than the projected first round kids except they lack the necessary ability! Not having the baseball talent of others means nothing in life, but it means everything at a baseball showcase. You can’t help but feel sorry for these players, but surprisingly, sometimes they will throw 2 or 3 no hit innings and mom and dad are all excited thinking they now have a super star son. I’m not saying this is all a bad thing, (lots of great memories) but it’s sad when you know they will end up being disappointed in the long run. It’s difficult explaining to them why they got such a low grade after having such successful results.
Our goal is always to have the most possible talent at these events. We understand that some of that talent might end up playing at a small college rather than DI. Not every player is going to get drafted or even receive a scholarship offer. We place more emphasis on projection than anyone, but you have to see something that you can project. We understand “late bloomers”, but most all “late bloomers” had something you could project on. We do respect each and every young player we see no matter what his ability level might be. But I would recommend that everyone get a good idea of their son’s true ability before spending a lot of money going to showcases. Especially our showcase events.
On the other hand, I can think of some examples where the parents had no idea how good their son was. One most recent example this year was a dad who called saying he didn’t think his son is ready for a certain event. We asked some questions and told him if you’re real uncomfortable, don’t go. In the end the dad said “Oh what the h-ll, we gotta find out sooner or later. His son ended up being ranked the third best prospect at that event and has since committed to a major university. In fact, he might end up being a pretty high draft pick next June. His dad didn’t even realize how good his son was before or after the event. Of course, we did! And so did everyone else who saw him.
So it works both ways, but if you have any doubts, find a pro tryout or someone very knowledgable and ask them for a totally honest opinion of your sons ability. Then you are a lot less likely to be wasting a bunch of money on people like us. It works better for everybody that way!
It doesn’t happen often, but sometimes a player or parent who attended our stuff is only trying to help someone else in his community and calls us, asking to let a certain player in to such and such event. Then we see the player and he really has no business spending money to attend the event he is at. We’ve seen pitchers who are seniors in high school topping out at 68-70 mph. People need to understand that we can’t help that player get a college scholarship let alone get drafted. It’s not the end of the world, but he might as well be at an NFL Combine. In reality his parents should be spending money allowing him a chance to improve his game rather than proving he is not ready. But US parents are not always very smart when it comes to accepting our sons true ability.
I really feel sorry for some of these kids who are put in these situations. I’ve talked to some of them and they’re no different than the projected first round kids except they lack the necessary ability! Not having the baseball talent of others means nothing in life, but it means everything at a baseball showcase. You can’t help but feel sorry for these players, but surprisingly, sometimes they will throw 2 or 3 no hit innings and mom and dad are all excited thinking they now have a super star son. I’m not saying this is all a bad thing, (lots of great memories) but it’s sad when you know they will end up being disappointed in the long run. It’s difficult explaining to them why they got such a low grade after having such successful results.
Our goal is always to have the most possible talent at these events. We understand that some of that talent might end up playing at a small college rather than DI. Not every player is going to get drafted or even receive a scholarship offer. We place more emphasis on projection than anyone, but you have to see something that you can project. We understand “late bloomers”, but most all “late bloomers” had something you could project on. We do respect each and every young player we see no matter what his ability level might be. But I would recommend that everyone get a good idea of their son’s true ability before spending a lot of money going to showcases. Especially our showcase events.
On the other hand, I can think of some examples where the parents had no idea how good their son was. One most recent example this year was a dad who called saying he didn’t think his son is ready for a certain event. We asked some questions and told him if you’re real uncomfortable, don’t go. In the end the dad said “Oh what the h-ll, we gotta find out sooner or later. His son ended up being ranked the third best prospect at that event and has since committed to a major university. In fact, he might end up being a pretty high draft pick next June. His dad didn’t even realize how good his son was before or after the event. Of course, we did! And so did everyone else who saw him.
So it works both ways, but if you have any doubts, find a pro tryout or someone very knowledgable and ask them for a totally honest opinion of your sons ability. Then you are a lot less likely to be wasting a bunch of money on people like us. It works better for everybody that way!
If anyone ever asks you for an honest opinion on their son's ability, maybe you'd better ask them to call you later. That way you'll be out of arm's reach if they decide to take a swing at you!
"Those with different view... Please take it easy".
I am in agreement 100% also.
Pitchers do have to pay the same amount as position players and play far less than them.
The payoff usually comes in the form of a bigger scholarship or a better draft position.
Parents of pitchers need to not look at their player as an individual, but as a team member. Put the money thing aside.
You might not really understand until your son goes off to play after HS and you spend a grand for the weekend and he pitches one or two innings. Things remain teh same for pitchers on every level.
The best part though, one inning or 6, all eyes on your player!
I am in agreement 100% also.
Pitchers do have to pay the same amount as position players and play far less than them.
The payoff usually comes in the form of a bigger scholarship or a better draft position.
Parents of pitchers need to not look at their player as an individual, but as a team member. Put the money thing aside.
You might not really understand until your son goes off to play after HS and you spend a grand for the weekend and he pitches one or two innings.
Things remain teh same for pitchers on every level.The best part though, one inning or 6, all eyes on your player!
quote:We’ve seen pitchers who are seniors in high school topping out at 68-70 mph. People need to understand that we can’t help that player get a college scholarship let alone get drafted.
So you are saying that velocity is the key? Not to be too simplistic, but what is the velocity that a player must have in order to attract attention?
My son is only a 9th grader, so I am kind of "looking down the road" if you know what I mean.
From a player's perspective the big number is...... 90. Nothing new there, BUT obviously one must consider it can be slightly lower for lefties... some even claim that it is as low as 86 for lefties. I'll just say this, scouts like a "live-arm", good mound presence, poise, location, and movement. Now if everything was that easy, we'd all be number 1 picks. Focus on what you (or your son) can do to improve. Good solid core strengthening program-never too early to start, good overall strength program of course, learn the game, study the game, understand why, how, when, where, what, and who. Oh, and act like a brick wall while on the mound-no emotion. See it isn't THAT hard .
.
90+ will get you notice
I think 90+ is key if we are discussing pro prospects -- many kids have nice college careers throwing in the 80's.
quote:pitchers who are seniors in high school topping out at 68-70 mph.
Are not gonna get drafted or get a baseball scholarship.
An important purpose of the WWBA is that it is one of the last showcases in the fall prior to being signed to a NLI or being drafted the next summer.
Seniors will get the most looks there for that reason.
Getting back on the subject of attending showcases.....My son is one of only about two baseball prospects that attend showcase type events from our city. I've submitted recommendations for others to attend PG events in the past only to find out that the player’s parents have declined citing misgivings on either the price or distance to the event. When I've talked to the player later they tell me the truth, in that their parent/s felt that they were not ready to get an evaluation. What makes this honestly hard to believe is the fact that not two days ago the parent/s were talking about their son as the next superstar to come out of Virginia. My thought on that is that there are many parents out there that truly don't want to know the honest opinion, from anyone, on their son's true ability. I believe they are scared to get one because it may confirm what they already know in the back of their minds. I've even egged on guys that come up to me and start reveling about their son's abilities and the scholarships they are going after, even so far as to pick draft rounds they think their player will fall into. I turn to them and ask them if their son has been to a showcase event. I tell them about a PG type event that will afford them the opportunity to be evaluated....the look on their faces is priceless when they come up with x-amount of excuses of why they can't go....I have nothing against a parent’s use of rose colored glasses to view their player, in fact I think it’s normal and I’d expect it to a degree. I do however, have something against the town braggarts that won't step up to the plate and give their player a chance to prove his true talent level.
quote:give their player a chance to prove his true talent level
Landing the Job of Your Dreams
quote:People with these jobs often share the same key traits: talent, passion, drive, and discipline. But they also share another key characteristic that's often overlooked: courage.
The article is not about baseball, but it is about achieving the upper levels in any field.
Baseball is really no different.
You can't steal second base with one foot on first.........