YOU make the call....

Nope. 10.04(b)1 states specifically that an RBI is not credited in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:
Nope. 10.04(b)1 states specifically that an RBI is not credited in this case.

No knock on GMD specifically because he’s certainly not alone, but sometimes I wonder how many people who score games have ever read the scoring rules! In my experience, it’s a very very small percentage, and obviously GMD isn’t in that group.

Most “EXPERIENCED” scorers wouldn’t have hesitated for a second on that one because its about as basic a scoring tenet as there is. But, I suppose that how INexperienced scorers get experience.

Dang.... Good thing I'm not an official scorer! LOL

GED10DaD

Yup, 10.4(b) specifically identifies a reverse force double play as being a "no RBI" situation.

quote:

Originally posted by GunEmDown10:
Dang.... Good thing I'm not an official scorer! LOL

GED10DaD

Don’t let it get you down! Each of us who claim to be a good SK have been wrong a whole lot of times before we learned how to do it right. The trick is, learn Rule 10.00 inside and out, but make darn sure you know the other 9 rules well enough to find things you need for clarification.

Welcome to the club!

I have to confess...rule 10 is not important to umpires. I was just sick of hearing questions of my opinion of the Phillies' protest, so I ventured to the back of the book to clear my head.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:
I have to confess...rule 10 is not important to umpires. I was just sick of hearing questions of my opinion of the Phillies' protest, so I ventured to the back of the book to clear my head.

Rule 10 isn’t supposed to mean anything to umpires because it hasn’t got a thing to do with game conduct, and I seriously doubt may umpire classes or schools teach much about it. Unfortunately, it contains information about what information will be kept about the game, and how to compute it, so scorers have to use it as their bible, the same way umpires use the other rules as theirs.

The sad thing is, because rule 10 means little or nothing to umpires, they fail to pass information on to scorers that they need to do their jobs, and because of that, it hurts the validity of the numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The sad thing is, because rule 10 means little or nothing to umpires, they fail to pass information on to scorers that they need to do their jobs, and because of that, it hurts the validity of the numbers.

What kinds of information are not being passed on?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:
What kinds of information are not being passed on?

Not often, but there are times on plays that happen on the field that as a scorer I’m not told why something took place. But subs are the worst! Coring at a HS game is a far cry from a ML game where the scorers have spotters, and are given ever change, no matter how minor. It’s a very strange event when an umpire gives me defensive changes.

This may be only my perception, but it seems that every year it becomes more and more difficult to get a count from the umpire. It wouldn’t be such a big deal, but some of them make it difficult to know what they called for someone directly behind them. Most of the time I try to pick up the “finger” indication, but again, some of them don’t raise the fingers high enough to see.

Now I’m not saying what they’re doing isn’t very plain to the players! But that’s not me, sitting behind the backstop, usually at ground level, with several people gabbing about everything from their son’s great swing or terrific change-up, to their daughter’s first period or their next door neighbor’s affair with pool cleaner.

If you’re an ump, and I assume you are, if you do HS games, when’s the last time you made sure the official scorer had his/her own copies of both lineups, before the game? A lot of that’s on coaches, but the umpires could make whole thing one heck of a lot easier. Maybe HS umpires think every book is kept in the dugout, so if they give changes to the coaches they’ve met their obligation.

I don’t know what it is, but it sure bothers me when I’m the OSK and have to hunt down lineups and changes, then get e-mails or phone calls because I missed getting some kids double in the paper, or his name was spelled wrong.

This is a generalisation but umpires don't care about defensive position with the exception of if it impacts the DH spot. So if there is a pitching change and the pitcher goes to RF and the RF goes to LF and the LF goes to the mound - Blue doesn't realy care about that becasue the batting order and substitution pattern is undisturbed.

Beyond the DH spot what umpires do try to manage is the reentry of players and curtesy runners to make sure that the substitution rules are followed.

I also suspect that most of the guys calling the games aren't worried about the statistics but are worried about making sure both sides know what the batting order is.

Interesting commentary...

From my perspective, in HS, if there is an official book kept separately from the home book, they are more on top of things than the managers themselves. The main times where I do have to report to an official scorer are levels above HS.

Many times, I don't even get reports of defensive switches (unless, as has been mentioned, it impacts the DH.)

As for the count, our association has it as one of the points of our evaluations--making sure that it is visible to the front and rear, at a minimum.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
This is a generalisation but umpires don't care about defensive position with the exception of if it impacts the DH spot. So if there is a pitching change and the pitcher goes to RF and the RF goes to LF and the LF goes to the mound - Blue doesn't realy care about that becasue the batting order and substitution pattern is undisturbed.

Beyond the DH spot what umpires do try to manage is the reentry of players and curtesy runners to make sure that the substitution rules are followed.

I also suspect that most of the guys calling the games aren't worried about the statistics but are worried about making sure both sides know what the batting order is.

I get all that and understand it. What you’re saying is, it ain’t the umpire’s job to do all that, and its true! Its because unlike ML and Mil ball, there’s seldom an “official scorer” in more than name only at amateur games. That being said, Rule 10 or something like it is in the rule book, whether the umpires care about it or not.

Like everything else in life, the whole thing boils down to kingdoms. Other than fans or other interested non-participating parties, the person good statistics benefits most, is the team manager. Organizations like NFHS make the determination that certain data will be kept, then codify it by putting it in the rule book. But, that’s it! There’s no national database for any level other than ML/Mil baseball, and no person or guideline other than the book to make sure there’s some kind of commonality and continuity. So what happens is, every manager/coach makes the determination as to how statistics will be handled for his team, and the gamut of philosophies runs all over the board, then changes all the time.

Umpires in general take the position as you noted above, that it really ain’t their job, and if the manager/coach is worried about it, its entirely within his purview to do with it as he pleases. Managers generally take the position that he’ll take care of any “really” important data, and the rest is just eyewash and doesn’t mean anything. So really the SK/statistician turns out to be someone just trying to help, with no authority or power, and certainly no pay, because after all, what they do means very little.

That would be ok, but then I have to endure all the talk about how worthless HS stats are, and the main reason being that the scorekeeping is so poor in general.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:
Interesting commentary...

From my perspective, in HS, if there is an official book kept separately from the home book, they are more on top of things than the managers themselves. The main times where I do have to report to an official scorer are levels above HS.

Many times, I don't even get reports of defensive switches (unless, as has been mentioned, it impacts the DH.)

As for the count, our association has it as one of the points of our evaluations--making sure that it is visible to the front and rear, at a minimum.

I wouldn’t doubt that what you say about an official book separate from the home book being on top of things is true the vast majority of the time it happens. Unfortunately, here, the only tome there’s an official book other than the home book, it’s a playoff game.

I know what you say about defensive switches is true as well, and its because while the game is going on, very few participants are thing about statistics. But in practice the next day or when the manager’s trying to determine who should be on the field, suddenly those stats become much more important. But then the thought is, the numbers I’m getting stink. And who gets blamed?

My only point here is to say if both the umpires and the managers did a better job of working together with the scorers, the numbers would get a lot better, and that would benefit everyone.

Ah the count. I believe what you say about the umpire’s assn. making it a point of interest. We have a huge assn. here, and they do the same thing. Sadly though, there’s a reason there are old sayings like: ”The best-laid schemes of mice and men gang aft agley”, and “The road to perdition is paved with good intentions”.

And I don’t blame the umps, because really, as long as the players know what’s going on, the rest is inconsequential. But its just another one of those things that makes the game more enjoyable to watch, and makes the SK’s job a bit easier. Its pretty simple to get what a call was when there’s 11 cameras plus replay, but like I said, at the typical HS game, there’s only a couple guys or gals trying to get the count so they can record it, and lots of times they’re trying to do something else and will miss a call.

When that used to happen, it was pretty standard for the SK to just yell, “COUNT BLUE”, and the ump would immediately show the count. But I’ve noticed that in the last couple of years, umpires aren’t as willing to assist. I’m thinking it has more to do with people other than the SK going crazy asking on pitch after pitch.