YOUNG 2010...how does this figure?

Don't worry about it---coaches and scouts look at "will be" when it comes to a HS player maturing physically

Same situation with Texan Son. It is a disadvantage. There is nothing to be done.

Work harder, play harder.

Thanks, TRHit.

Your answer confirms my thoughts. The problem I foresee is when he goes to events, etc. where he is compared to other 2010's and the coaches, scouts, etc. have no way of knowing that he is that much younger than most of the others. He is getting to the age/grade that he is attending college events and while his abilities are right there his size is not...but won't colleges view a 2010 as a 2010 for potential recruiting...not considering actual age? I hope this makes sense. Thanks.

My son was old for his grade but was still a late bloomer (fairly tall but extremely thin). I'll be honest with you -- it put many programs off. Here are comments from a college showcase he attended:

"Solid overall player that knows how to play the game of baseball. Good defender with flare for big time play. Runs slightly above average. Arm strength needs to improve but with maturity and strength probably will happen naturally over time... Solid actions, moves around well. Offensively: Frame is a little weak, needs to get stronger physically. Great setup and idea of how to hit... just needs to get more physical."

See a pattern?

It seems like many programs were looking for beefy bodies and big bats, the two things my son lacked (at least for the moment). Thankfully, a few programs saw past his slight frame, recognized his potential, and gave him a chance.

My advice? Market your son heavily to all levels of programs. The more programs that know about your son, the better chance he has of attracting at least one school's attention. If you want some marketing ideas, look on this site or PM me and I'll be happy to share what we did.

Thanks, Infield,

Those are EXACTLY the same type of comments my son received...and the things he cannot control. It's good to know that we are not alone! I will be PMing you for more info.

quote:

He is an excellent student (honors) and a strong baseball player.

That's EXACTLY what colleges are looking for. They are not looking for OLD baseball players; they are looking for strong baseball players that can make it academically.

My son was always the youngest on his teams having a July 3rd birthday. I always looked at it as an advantage and being the youngest provided an additional challenge. I just pulled a showcase evaluation of his when he had just turned 15. In the "general comments" section of the evaluation it said ---- Arm! Very young ---- I took both comments as positive comments.
Fungo

my 2010 is also a very young one...april 30...he just recently attended a showcase at a local university...one of the coaches took the time to ask about his age...his evaluation was great...i think having to compete with the older boys just makes him that much better!

It is a disadvantage now both in HS in terms of playing time and with scout and college recruiting coordinators. It gets to be less and less of an issue as they get closer to graduation. The reality is that only a few coaches/scouts are smart enough to look at age along with grade and take chances with projection and even the ones who are willing to take a chance will, correctly, take a bird in hand over two in the bush. Unfortunately, Perfect Game no longer publishes ages with the player profiles (probably some sort of privacy issue) so one doesn't know if one is seeing the result for a 18yo junior vs a 16yo junior or not and there are that big of age differences, especially when you include some of the football crazy states where kids are routinely held back to give them an advantage in football. Believe me, there's a big, big difference between a good 18yo and a good 16yo.

For now all he can do is work hard. Eventually, if he's just as good as the older players going into and during his senior season he'll have a slight advantage with some college coaches.

The age difference doesn't mean anything if your kid has the talent of a Delmon Young or a Robert Stock who were both young players, but if your player has the talent to eventually play in college but not the talent to start as a freshman then it is a disadvantage and he may have to go the JC route or play at a bit weaker school, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. (Or redshirt, like TR notes below, but gaining 40 lbs in a year at that age without a big height gain is extremely unusual no matter how much hard work one puts in, unless like TR's son they make a big jump in physical maturity.)

Many times the biggest disadvantage is at the HS level where the younger kids get fewer opportunities for playing time and advancement than kids the same age who are going to be in the program for another season.

Osage,
If he turned 15 in April that is very typical, neither young nor old. I'll use Robert Stock as an example because he was so good it didn't make any difference to him, but he turned 15 in November or December of his sophmore season. I kind of put August and beyond as young. May to July is fairly normal.

Fungo,
Was he young in HS or in youth ball? I ask this because you used the July 3rd birthday. He'd be one of the oldest of our "young" players with a July 3rd birthday. I tend to use the old age cutoff for youth ball so actually he would have been one of the youngest of the "old" players. We've got 6 or 7, 16yo juniors with birthdays between August and December. Last season, one of the freshman, who is now a 16yo sophmore with a November birthday, was pulled up to JV and started at shortstop where he was a liability in the field and at the plate. That only happened because he was an older player for his grade. It is an advantage to be the older player.

My guy was a young grad from hs and 5-9/150 if that

He was scouted et al and went major D-I , redshirted, began to mature physically---came out of college 5-10 plus 190 and solid and after the redshirt year started for 4 years

He also came out of college with a better GPA than he had in HS

pudgemom31 - I have some good news and some bad news, CADad made some really good points in his original post, but the reality is that colleges recruit by grad year and pro scouts draft by when they are available, it does not matter to them what his age is other than for projection. If he is good enough for them now and he is young, they will project him even getting stronger and better. That is one possible reason Perfect Game puts so much emphasis on Grad Year.

With the changing times and college roster size limits and the compressed schedule putting more emphasis on the need for pitching, it will become more difficult for 4 year schools to count on projection and red shirting like they had in the past, they will be looking for early contributors to the line up.

Good news is that if your son has the skills, he will be evaluated on that.

CADad, young in both. For instance he would be slotted to play 12yo ball when in reality he wouldn't turn 12 until July (the last weeks of the youth baseball season). He started HS at 14 and graduated HS at 17. He was drafted at age 17 and then again at 20 after 3 years of college. If I remember right both he and I had to sign the papers after the draft because he wasn't 21. Youth baseball had an Aug 1 birthday as the reference date (you played in the age group of the age you were on Aug 1 of that year) I think they have since chhanged that date to sometime in April. The schools here use the students age in September as their date.
Fungo.

quote:

by CaDad: he'd be one of the oldest of our "young" players with a July 3rd birthday. I tend to use the old age cutoff for youth ball so actually he would have been one of the youngest of the "old" players.

the old cutoff was August 1, so ya better walk me thru that math .. mine math says only players between Jul 4 - Jul 31 would be younger - as the previous yrs Aug 2 thru (current yr) Jul 2 are all in his age group, some 11 1/2 months older ... where did I go wrong?

oops, the Fungo was typing as I was, but not w/1 finger & much faster

Bee,
He would have been one of the younger 12yo in LL. Then in HS as a freshman even though he was actually 14yo, he would have been a league age 15yo (i.e one of the "old" kids, but as I said one of the youngest of the old kids.) playing against league age 14yo. It sounds like perhaps where he was from there weren't many younger kids in his grade. When CASon was a freshman there were 8 or 9 freshmen who were league age 14yo by the old cutoff rules and on average they were 4 or 5 months younger than Fungo's son was as a freshman with the youngest being a full 6 months younger. In other words, Fungo's son would have been right in the middle age wise on our freshman team with neither an advantage nor a disadvantage. Osage's son would have been among the older third on our freshman team. Now when you compare our kids with their August through December birthdays, mostly late September through December to the rest of the country they are significantly younger for their grade and are at a bit of a disadvantage. Now if we look at Pudgemom's kid he's probably a September or October birthday and at a bit of a disadvantage in showcases, HS, etc.

Sometimes, one wonders with the weather and the number of players there are in California how teams in other parts of the country can be just as good and sometimes better. Well in some parts of the country the teams on average are older than the HS teams from California.

quote:

Then in HS as a freshman even though he was actually 14yo, he would have been a league age 15yo

??

tho most would play up a yr or two, a player w/a Jul birthday entering his fresh yr at 14 yrs old COULD have played 15U the summer after his fresh yr (his proper age group - Aug 1 cutoff then)

edited by Bee

We've been through this before and in reality Texan said all that needs to be said. He was right, it is a disadvantage, there's nothing you can do about it but try to be better. Such is life.

BOTTOM LINE:


If you have talent it is not a disadvantage ---get real folks---"a player is a player"

My son is young also. He has a November birthday. He just turned 15 and his teamates that are in the same grade as him on his high school team will be turning 16. Size/age didn't make much of a difference in high school. He will be attending two showcases this year so it will be interesting to see what feedback we get. I think he would be considered average size at 5'10" 185 lbs.

quote:

If you have talent it is not a disadvantage ---get real folks---"a player is a player"

Have to agree!!

quote:

Does age make a difference? You'd better believe it

valid points for 22 HS games I guess, but across the US your "player A" & "player B" would EACH start & play 80-100 summer league games (for 4 yrs) w/better exposure & and plenty of opportunity for development

during summer "player B" would not be ahead of him or anywhere in sight

And given that I've said that player A is the better player by the time they are seniors what does that do other than reinforce my point? The reality is that they'd both be in sight but player B would have a bit of an advantage because at that age they'd both be playing in the same leagues since they're in the same grade.

I go back to what Texan said.

How can anyone deny that given a 16yo and a 17yo who will end up with the same ability when they are fully mature that the 17yo will have the advantage? Pitchers typically pick up 2 to 4 mph between 16yo and 17yo. That's huge. Hey, if I'm a HS coach given two kids of near equal ability I'm going with the kid who can help me for more years.

quote:

The reality is that they'd both be in sight but player B would have a bit of an advantage because at that age they'd both be playing in the same leagues since they're in the same grade.

so, you're saying the "better player" will have an advantage being scouted & recruited?

I guess we agree

CADad...started high school varsity team every game as a 14 year old...lefty pitcher/1st baseman...got lots of innings in relief and pitched one complete game giving up 3 hits...his age never really mattered much and he is a big kid...but it is fun to watch him play the older kids and hold his own!

I understand how age can be a factor when we are talking about Freshman and maybe even Sophomores because of the huge differences in physical maturity. But seriously, why would a HS coach care who is a "young" JR vs an "older" JR? Isn't he going to play the most talented player? (usual politics aside).

Who gives you the best chance to win the game? Thats who should be playing. If a program is playing guys in front of other guys because they have more projection instead of who is the better player that sounds crazy to me. Maybe this is not what you are saying.

rhp18mom,
The differences are often a full year and the difference between a 17yo and a 16yo can be significant. When you start talking about showcases I've seen differences of almost 2 years in the same grade. 18yo rising seniors vs 16yo rising seniors.

For pitchers the difference due to 1 year of age can be up to 4 mph in the junior season and 2 mph in the senior season. Both are very significant for a kid working low 80s vs mid 80s as a junior and mid 80s vs high 80s as a senior.

Bee,
So you're saying the less talented player would have an advantage because he is older? I guess we agree.

quote:

The differences are often a full year and the difference between a 17yo and a 16yo can be significant.

the obvious conclusion ... take steps to assure your child is one of the older kids in his class

if ya slipped up & it didn't happen in 1rst grade,
make dam well sure it happens entering 9th grade (HS)

quote:

Bee,
So you're saying the less talented player would have an advantage because he is older? I guess we agree.

I edited my As & Bs in the above post after I re-read it 6 times

better player always has the edge

Coach May,
Take the two real players I've given you and assume both perform equally well on the field. Each has their strengths and weaknesses but to all intents and purposes they are equal. Both have good attitudes. Neither is going to be one of your league starters this season, you've got a couple seniors who have already signed with D1s. They will both compete for a spot as one of two league starters next season, when you'll have a fair shot at making the playoffs. Barring injury the sophmore is going to be your ace in 2010 and given a 2011 coming along who will be right up there with him by then you're looking at a shot at the league championship and possibly a national ranking in 2010. Who gets more playing time this season?

Bee,
Didn't do it before 1st grade when it would have made sense. What valid motivation would there be for holding a top student back going into 9th grade?

What is done is done and there's nothing we can do about it except hope that talent and hard work will pay off in the long run. He's already shown he'll probably be good enough to play in college at some level and if he plays at a little lower level school as a result of the age then he'll get more playing time in the long run. Unless he makes a much bigger than expected jump in velocity over the next few years I don't see him being a legit pro prospect so who cares what level of college ball he plays as long as he plays?

quote:

sophmore is going to be your ace in 2010 and given a 2011 coming along who will be right up there with him by then you're looking at a shot at the league championship and possibly a national ranking in 2010. Who gets more playing time this season?

whoever helps the team more THIS SEASON

quote:

What is done is done ... He's already shown he'll probably be good enough to play in college at some level

I'm not discussing your son or any particular player, just general views

good luck to him tho

If they are equal I give them equal opportunity. One will more than likely distinguish himself as the better option over the course of the season. If not great I have two guys that can get it done. There is no way to determine who is going to be the better guy the next season. How hard do they work in the off season? How much do they grow etc etc. You determine that the next season or better yet they do. Play the guys that give you the best chance to win right now. Next year - Play the guys that give you the best chance to win right now. Next year - Play the guys that give you the best chance to win right now.

Coach May,
Given that perfectly reasonable approach doesn't the older of two players born with equal talent who are in the same grade likely to have an advantage?

BTW,
These two have gone back and forth over the last few years only due to differences in when they hit their growth spurts. The junior is better than the sophmore against stronger teams and the sophmore is better than the junior against weaker teams. The sophmore is a bit herky-jerky and looks like he's throwing faster than he is so he tends to intimidate weaker teams while the junior has a long smooth action that makes it look like he isn't throwing as hard so he doesn't intimidate the weaker teams. He has more movement and control so he tends to be more effective against the better hitters, but against the weaker hitters they're a bit more likely to put the ball in play than against the sophmore.

Back when the sophmore was 3" taller than the junior I'd catch them both and would swear that the sophmore was throwing 5 mph faster. There was only 1 mph difference on the gun. Now the junior throws a bit harder if anything but the sophmore still looks like he throws harder.

Given that description one would say the junior was the better pitcher but due to injury layoffs for the junior the sophmore has better command of his off speed pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
If they are equal I give them equal opportunity. One will more than likely distinguish himself as the better option over the course of the season. If not great I have two guys that can get it done. There is no way to determine who is going to be the better guy the next season. How hard do they work in the off season? How much do they grow etc etc. You determine that the next season or better yet they do. Play the guys that give you the best chance to win right now. Next year - Play the guys that give you the best chance to win right now. Next year - Play the guys that give you the best chance to win right now.

Good points. Some try to make life more complicated than it actually is sometimes.

This is one of those issues you have to play the hand you are dealt. Baseball is not a good game to find excuses. If you are younger than most, a good way to look at it is that your skills are being honed against better competition. If you are older for a given grade, hopefully you are having success that allows your confidence to grow. Although I can be pessimistic at times, have found that certain things are better not to dwell on. My son and I never discussed where his age fell for a given grade. He just played.

Coach May,
You've got one spot left on varsity. They've both performed equally well. Neither one is going to benefit from a season on JV, they'd simply throw the ball down the middle all day to avoid any chance of walking anyone and still dominate at that level. They'd also lose their chance to get used to hitting in a league where every team has a pitcher headed to a D1 and most have two. Each of the next couple fall ball games we'll have at least 4 pitchers headed for D1 throwing. At least 3 this last weekend. Our league tends to be a bit stronger than fall ball. Who gets the spot? The junior or the sophmore?

Wow...a lot of posts since I last checked and all with very valid points. CADad...you're right... my 2010 is LATE August birthday, and at the showcase he attended some kids were almost 2 years older and still 2010s. Over the years, my son has played up (with his grade) and played down (with his age--usu. the kids are a grade behind him) and can compete with either. As far as HS goes, he is right there ability-wise defensively with juniors and seniors although (and prob due to his size and current development) his bat is not as strong. He has an incredible work ethic though and a STRONG desire to make it to the college level... and of course, 2 years can make a huge difference, growthwise.
I was just wondering, at this point, until he does have significant growth, if we should hold off on attending another showcase, esp. if they don't even factor his age vs. his grad year.

quote:

Who gets the spot? The junior or the sophmore?

very simple .. which player's dad painted the concession stand where his mom works til dark?

All good points. The coach will determine who needs to pitch against who. Who is more effective against who. The bottom line is put the guy out there that gives you the best chance to win that day. Some guys are more effective against certain teams. Its the coaches job to know his players. Whoever you feel is the best option to help you win thats who you should play.

Now I have put guys on the hill that were not the best option that day as far as winning the game. For instance we are playing a non conference game and I want to see what a kid can do. I have a couple of better options on the bench but I know what they can do. I give the kid a chance to show his stuff in a game situation. Give him a chance to get some work and develop.

But if Im playing a game that we have to win such as a conference game or playoff game. Im going with the 9 guys that I feel give us the best chance to win. I do believe in developing players. Our first half of the non conference season will be about getting guys innings and ab's. If we win great. If we lose we learn from it. This has allowed us to be very successfull over the years. It has also allowed us to develop alot of arms that we can trust down the stretch. And it also allows us to learn about kids before we have to learn the hard way. jmho