Your thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by louisiana09:
Any comments would be appreciated. I know you might not be able to tell too much from three photos. Don't be too harsh, I am a Mom, you know how Mom's are. LOL

Can't say too much since the critical frames (when his Pitching Arm Side forearm is vertical and his shoulders start to turn) are missing.

Having said that, he knows what he's doing. His back leg action is good (he doesn't leave his PAS foot behind on the rubber) and he should be able to protect himself against come-backers.

Chris,

Just out of curiousity...

Could you give an example of a few pitchers who leave the PAS foot behind on the rubber?

louisiana09,

Good looking kid! Do you have a video you can post?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Could you give an example of a few pitchers who leave the PAS foot behind on the rubber?

Most don't literally leave the PAS foot behind on the rubber, but it LOOKS like they are trying to.

An example is this photo of Andy Pettitte.



Notice how his PAS knee is locked and his PAS foot is well behind him. I think this can cause problems with decelerating the arm.

I prefer to see the PAS knee bent more like 90 degrees around the release point like this photo of Nate Robertson.



Notice how far his PAS foot has come off the rubber and he's not yet at the release point.

I see the same 90 degree knee bend in the middle photo of the pitcher discussed above.



As the late, great bbscout loved to point out, this is one thing that Greg Maddux did very well when he was younger.

PAIN GUY

What has the success record for Pettitte been?


How do you criticize with his record of success of lack of injury other than his back problems ?

Those 2 pictures are at different points in the delivery.

How can you even compare the 2??

Nothing wrong with the way Pettitte looks there.

I find nothing wrong with the way Pettitte pitches---all you need to do is look at his track record---And I am not a Yankee fan---I just appreciate good talent and ability

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
Those 2 pictures are at different points in the delivery.

How can you even compare the 2??

Correct, RV.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
Those 2 pictures are at different points in the delivery. How can you even compare the 2??

If you studied this, you would find that they represent two different styles of PAS leg action.

In one, the PAS foot stays back by the rubber and the knee stays extended (ala Pettitte). In the other, the PAS foot and knee move forward off the rubber and form a 90 degree angle (ala Robertson and Maddux).

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
Nothing wrong with the way Pettitte looks there.

Notice how his PAS arm is tightly wrapped around his body and his PAS hand is bouncing off his back. HIS PAS arm had to stop over a shorter distance, which puts more stress on the brakes of the arm (e.g. the Teres Minor).

Guys who do this tend to have a higher incidence of Teres Minor problems.

However, I will grant you that Teres Minor problems can also be caused by muscle imbalances, many of which result from working the muscles at the front of the rotator cuff (e.g. via bench presses) more than muscles at the back of the rotator cuff.

If, before releasing the ball, your back foot losses contact with the ground, doesn't that create a more unstable base? It'd be like throwing to a moving target.

But I do agree with the back foot coming off after release (a product of trunk flexion), as you need a bit of trunk flexion to get that, so the time in which to decelerate should be more than if you were upright.

A video would be more helpful than just those 3 pictures

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
If you studied this, you would find that they represent two different styles of PAS leg action.

In one, the PAS foot stays back by the rubber and the knee stays extended (ala Pettitte). In the other, the PAS foot and knee move forward off the rubber and form a 90 degree angle (ala Robertson and Maddux).

Nice condesending remarks.

How much do you want to bet that Pettite's lead leg looked just like Robertsons at the same point in the delivery?

PGStaff,

I do not have a video clip from this spring (high school). Summer ball is starting on Tuesday, so I will try to get a clip posted. He will be a junior this coming school year, he had impressive sophomore season.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
If you studied this, you would find that they represent two different styles of PAS leg action.

In one, the PAS foot stays back by the rubber and the knee stays extended (ala Pettitte). In the other, the PAS foot and knee move forward off the rubber and form a 90 degree angle (ala Robertson and Maddux).

Nice condesending remarks.

How much do you want to bet that Pettite's lead leg looked just like Robertsons at the same point in the delivery?

What was said here that was condesending? No way Robertson's leg is locked at any point in his delivery like Pettite's is here. Again, just as in the hitting threads, no one is saying you can't make just about any delivery work if you practice it enough. The question is, which type of delivery would you want to pattern yourself after? The kid's leg action looks really good to me.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
In one, the PAS foot stays back by the rubber and the knee stays extended (ala Pettitte).

Come on Chris. You know very well the back foot does NOT "stay back by the rubber" in those guys. The toe drags. Yet again, a still image is used to describe a dynamic action. Take a look at video of Ryan, Clemens, Brown, etc., etc. They do NOT have the knee bent like you "prefer". Some do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not doing what you tend to "prefer".

And I agree completely with RobV. Those 2 pics are not at the same point in the delivery. How can they be used to compare things?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
His back leg action is good (he doesn't leave his PAS foot behind on the rubber)

So, by implication, Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens back leg action is bad? They do what you are condemning.

Louisiana09,
It looks like a great motion from the photos. Obviously video is better, but I am impressed. If he looks solid and is having success, do not let him over analyze his motion. I have seen so many great athletes never perform to their fullest potential because they analyze their mechanics to such a degree that they don't just go out and play the game. It is good to be efficient with mechanics and I consider myself to be a "mechanics guy." But I know the biggest thing is to be comfortable and successful.

IMO, Still pics shouldn't be used much at all when evaluating a hitting or throwing process.

Sometimes even video when viewed frame by frame doesn't tell the whole story. I will also look at video many times at normal speed to try to pick up clues as to what happened in that split second.

quote:

So, by implication, Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens back leg action is bad? They do what you are condemning.

You're right, they must be horrible pitchers!

IMO this man takes far too much license with his baseball "expertise" - just my humble opinion however.

I give up!
Found a photo of Pettitte at release point (almost full body), but can't get it up. anyone else have one they can post?

This thread really isn't about Pettitte so getting back to the original post...

louisiana09,

It's truly difficult to pass any quality judgement based on 3 still photos. Sure, I see some things that would cause me to pay attention to certain aspects of this pitcher's delivery. For example, in the first picture it looks like he's leaning back toward 2B and leading with his front foot instead of his front hip. So I'd want to look at his posture and at what point in his stride he starts his hips moving forward. In the second picture, his back foot has lifted off of the ground but it appears that the ball has not been released yet. So I'd want to look at his timing to make sure his upper half is not getting ahead of his lower half. But I'm not willing to say for sure that your pitcher has these issues. Again, I can't be sure those issues really are issues without seeing what happened before and after each of those 3 points in the delivery. I don't believe anyone else can, either.

Thank you Roger.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
This thread really isn't about Pettitte so getting back to the original post...

louisiana09,

It's truly difficult to pass any quality judgement based on 3 still photos. Sure, I see some things that would cause me to pay attention to certain aspects of this pitcher's delivery. For example, in the first picture it looks like he's leaning back toward 2B and leading with his front foot instead of his front hip. So I'd want to look at his posture and at what point in his stride he starts his hips moving forward. In the second picture, his back foot has lifted off of the ground but it appears that the ball has not been released yet. So I'd want to look at his timing to make sure his upper half is not getting ahead of his lower half. But I'm not willing to say for sure that your pitcher has these issues. Again, I can't be sure those issues really are issues without seeing what happened before and after each of those 3 points in the delivery. I don't believe anyone else can, either.

If his back foot is already off the ground and he hasn't released the ball yet, his upper half is not ahead of his bottom half. His hips have already fired. This is a good thing. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
If his back foot is already off the ground and he hasn't released the ball yet, his upper half is not ahead of his bottom half. His hips have already fired. This is a good thing. IMO

How do the hips firing cause the back foot to lift off the ground? The only way I can see that happening is if the pitcher has very rotational mechanics in which case I'd expect the back to lift off the ground and swing out to the side. I don't see that in the posted pictures. This pitcher has an over-the-top arm slot. Further more, the back foot usually comes through in a slot similar to the arm - which I see in the posted pictures.

If the upper half gets out front, that means the posture is such that the upper torso is leaning forward. That causes the back foot to lift off the ground. The body works much like a see-saw. The bottom half mirrors the top half and vice versa. The back side mirrors the front side and vice versa.

Take a look at some video of the best pro pitchers and you'll see most of them keep the back foot on the ground at least until release. That is what is good because getting the upper half out front too soon can cause a pitcher to throw with more arm.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that you may have interpretted "ahead of" to mean "before" whereas I meant it to mean "out in front of". I'm sure this pitcher's hips rotated before his shoulders. So, I wasn't talking about things happening out of sequence though if the upper half gets out front too soon then that is still a timing issue.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that you may have interpretted "ahead of" to mean "before" whereas I meant it to mean "out in front of". I'm sure this pitcher's hips rotated before his shoulders. So, I wasn't talking about things happening out of sequence though if the upper half gets out front too soon then that is still a timing issue.[/QUOTE]


Yep, that's the way I took it. Do you not see pitching as a rotational action or are you a rock and fire kind of mechanics thinker?

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
Yep, that's the way I took it. Do you not see pitching as a rotational action or are you a rock and fire kind of mechanics thinker?

Does it have to be one or the other? I believe that, while some pitchers lean one way more than the other, they all have a little of each in them. As a coach I need to match what I teach with the style of the pitcher.

quote:

As a coach I need to match what I teach with the style of the pitcher.

The most difficult part of coaching IMO....I agree with you on this 100%.

[Does it have to be one or the other? I believe that, while some pitchers lean one way more than the other, they all have a little of each in them. As a coach I need to match what I teach with the style of the pitcher.[/QUOTE]

Again, I believe anyone can make any delivery work if they practice it enough, and some pitchers can't or won't change to help their self get better. But, if they are successful doing what they are doing, then I think you leave them alone. If they want to get better, you have to take the aspects in their delivery that could be improved and try to improve them. However, if you are teaching a person from scratch, I think Dick Mills' form of mechanics are the best. But, that's just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
Again, I believe anyone can make any delivery work if they practice it enough,

This seems to be the issue with Marshall's mechanics. They will supposedly work but noone practicing them ever seems to be quite there yet (based on what I read on the Internet). Unfortunately, time is of the essence. Pitchers almost always need to make it today at what ever level they're at. So you have to balance what will help them succeed today with what will help them succeed tomorrow.

quote:

and some pitchers can't or won't change to help their self get better.

They will fall by the wayside. There are too many who have the desire and commitment to work hard to succeed.

quote:

But, if they are successful doing what they are doing, then I think you leave them alone.

I agree that there is such a thing as too much tinkering. But you can never leave them alone because flaws have a way of creeping into anyone's mechanics.

quote:

If they want to get better, you have to take the aspects in their delivery that could be improved and try to improve them.

True. However, you have to adjust to what works for the pitcher based on the characteristics and style of that pitcher.

quote:

However, if you are teaching a person from scratch, I think Dick Mills' form of mechanics are the best. But, that's just my opinion.

I am NPA-certified so I, of course, would have to disagree.

quote:

However, if you are teaching a person from scratch, I think Dick Mills' form of mechanics are the best. But, that's just my opinion.

I am NPA-certified so I, of course, would have to disagree. [/QUOTE]

So, what part of his mechanics do you not agree with?

Roger says, "As a coach, I need to match what I teach with the style of the pitcher".

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

However, if you are teaching a person from scratch, I think Dick Mills' form of mechanics are the best. But, that's just my opinion.

I am NPA-certified so I, of course, would have to disagree.

So, what part of his mechanics do you not agree with?

My problem with Mills' current teaching is that he seems to be back to advocating drop and drive.

While that may be what Tom Seaver did (but that's debatable in and of itself), I would put the number of current ML pitchers who actively drop and drive at less than 5 percent. The only two that I can think of are Roy Oswalt and Tim Lincecum.

While I think the stride (e.g. the drive) does have value, I think Mills is overstating it in an effort to differentiate himself and his ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
So, what part of his mechanics do you not agree with?

Well, to be honest, I don't claim to know everything about Mills' mechanics model. What I hear he is pushing heavily these days is the idea of "flying past the balance point" to build up lots of momentum and achieving a stride length that is at least 100% of your height. I would agree with this to a point. I especially agree that there is no balance point at which a pitcher hesitates. But it is my opinion that Mills is taking this concept to an extreme. House would tell you that your stride should be as long as your functional strength and flexibility allow you to maintain good posture and balance. To me, that's more practical.

I also wonder what Mills would have you do when pitching from the stretch position. It seems what he would have you do from the wind-up would be so drastically different from what you could do from the stretch that you would, in effect, have to learn two very different deliveries. House's approach, on the other hand, allows the wind-up and stretch deliveries to converge in similarity.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
What I hear he is pushing heavily these days is the idea of "flying past the balance point" to build up lots of momentum and achieving a stride length that is at least 100% of your height. I would agree with this to a point. I especially agree that there is no balance point at which a pitcher hesitates. But it is my opinion that Mills is taking this concept to an extreme. House would tell you that your stride should be as long as your functional strength and flexibility allow you to maintain good posture and balance. To me, that's more realistic.

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:My problem with Mills' current teaching is that he seems to be back to advocating drop and drive.

Not quite. In the windup, lots of drive but no drop. From the stretch, yes, drop and drive. In my estimation of his intent, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
So, what part of his mechanics do you not agree with?

Well, to be honest, I don't claim to know everything about Mills' mechanics model. What I hear he is pushing heavily these days is the idea of "flying past the balance point" to build up lots of momentum and achieving a stride length that is at least 100% of your height. I would agree with this to a point. I especially agree that there is no balance point at which a pitcher hesitates. But it is my opinion that Mills is taking this concept to an extreme. House would tell you that your stride should be as long as your functional strength and flexibility allow you to maintain good posture and balance. To me, that's more practical.

I also wonder what Mills would have you do when pitching from the stretch position. It seems what he would have you do from the wind-up would be so drastically different from what you could do from the stretch that you would, in effect, have to learn two very different deliveries. House's approach, on the other hand, allows the wind-up and stretch deliveries to converge in similarity.

I have to admit that the only Dick Mills mechanics I know of were from a training package I bought about 4 years ago. In that package he had a video of a guy that ran a pitching academy in California using his mechanics. It was called "How to develop perfect mechanics in a Little Leaguer". I liked the video and agreed with those mechanics. I do believe that the longer your stride the harder you will throw, but I don't think you need to teach that to a young kid. Control or command is more important IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I have to admit that the only Dick Mills mechanics I know of were from a training package I bought about 4 years ago.

While I'm no Mills expert, I'd be confident in saying you're well behind the times with respect to Mills' latest teachings. I've interacted with Tom House about twice a year for the last 2-3 years and each time he had something new to share. There's no way I could let 4 years go by.

I hate to point this out, because some of the stuff (ie throwing elbow below shoulder height for scap load) makes sense... but, to lose contact with the ground before the pitch is released.. nope, not good

Nate Robertson is on the DL

quote:

I hate to point this out, because some of the stuff (ie throwing elbow below shoulder height for scap load) makes sense... but, to lose contact with the ground before the pitch is released.. nope, not good

.....no good in what respect?