youth baseball

20Dad you are not alone, but I would say that the majority of people don't feel that way.And even if they did they probably wouldn't say it. I'm surprised you didn't get a bunch of posts, angry w/ you for even bringing up such a topic,some kind of personal attack on some coaches abilitlies that you don't even know, or you've certainly offended some parent's psyche.I agree w/ you, why don't we play by those rules or standards? We play in a travel league here, we play American league rules, leading off stealing,etc. Yet I coach w/some people that every game they try to talk the other coaches into playing LL rules.Drives me nuts!,We've played in both style tourneys last year and did quite well w/ both, but I guarantee you if you were to ask the kids which rules they would like to play by, the majority will say not LL rules! One of our parents feels the kids will miss out on being able to turn a double play, I say they miss out on a whole bunch of other things about the game that they don't get playing LL rules.i'm sure I'm looked at as just the over the top Dad that thinks his son is just too good!Doesn't matter though we joined this travel league to get away from kiddy ball for lack of a better term,but it seems a few want to pull us back in it. We will continue to challenge our son and the rest of the players to go out everyday and be the best player they can possibly be and to help put there team in a position to win. Sorry for the long wind, just had to get a few things out there.

I wish I could remember back to youth ball,...ha!
Those were greeeat days!
We moved around alot and so we played whatever was offered locally, LL, Babe Ruth, rec ball, etc.
I can still remember the thrill when I saw those lil' 8 year olds making their first double play or stealing a base successfully. The expression on their faces ( & their team mates ) was priceless.

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from 2Diamonds: I'm surprised you didn't get a bunch of posts, angry w/ you for even bringing up such a topic,some kind of personal attack on some coaches abilitlies that you don't even know, or you've certainly offended some parent's psyche.

Dont let the "passionate " posters detour you.
Everyone's opinion is important, no matter what side of the coin you are on. Lots of people are reading, taking notes, and even ignoring. Its the beauty of the HSBBW. Keep posting and dont worry about getting your toes wet if they are dipped in a muddy puddle. The more muddy toes the better for all of us, IMHO.
The more knowledge, experience, and opinions the better.

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We will continue to challenge our son and the rest of the players to go out everyday and be the best player they can possibly be and to help put there team in a position to win.

Excellent quote!! I sure cant argue with that!!!

We were lucky enough and quite by accident to find a competitive league for my son when he was 9. Of course they played on shorter bases but they played baseball rules. Bunting, stealing, leading off, dropped third strike, balks, everything. The problem for parents I think is time and money to help their kids get better to play at that level. It is much less time consuming to play little league or rec ball. Also s****r and lacrosse have become very popular. Some just don't know that there is something better out there. I've seen tryouts where you can absolutely tell who played in what league, who had good coaching and who didn't. It is not for everyone because it is more competitive. Yet to keep in perspective should always be fun for the kids, which sometimes because kids do have to try out and are not guaranteed to make the team it is not. I remember my sons coach having to go to a couple of the parents after the first season and tell them their son didn't make the team the next year. He told me it was the toughest thing he ever had to do and he did it in person not over the phone. He was also doing the best thing for those kids because they could go somewhere else get playing time and be a star.

Please define "competitive" at 9 years of age

How much instruction ( fundamentals) was involved?

" Competitive: "

of, pertaining to, involving, or decided by competition.

Competitive,

Sure. Instruction was number one, starting with throwing the ball correctly. Hitting from grip to stance to swing. Infield on the proper position to field and throw a ball. Outfield the same plus a crow hop. Pitching with strict pitch counts and proper mechanics and using many pitchers not just a horse. Running the bases, leading off, stealing, pick-off plays, proper relays, the importance of hitting the cut-off man. It was very time consuming for the parents especially and getting field time was always and issue. Probably most important was our coach who was dedicated to the kids getting better and having fun. If I remeber right they played around 30 games that first year with a couple of local tournaments, where they got to stay in a hotel for one night and play in the pool and make some life long friends. In fact just on Friday 3 kids who played on that team met at a HS game and took their pictures together in uniform after the game.

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If I remeber right they played around 30 games that first year with a couple of local tournaments, where they got stay in a hotel for one night and play in the pool and make some life long friends. In fact just on Friday 3 kids who played on that team met at a HS game and took their pictures together in uniform after the game.

Such greeeeeat days, such greeat memories!!!!
Life being learned & experienced,...one step at a time. Now, thats good fundamentals!

bb

If you played that many games when did you practice these fundamentals---there are only 7 days in a week

I am not understanding what competitive at 9 is all about either.

I felt the same way, but now that son is older I have changed my opinions. This a good topic, IMO.

Baseball is based upon skills that take years to develop. It also, for many takes years to actually UNDERSTAND how the game is played, why and how certain rules are in place. Many leagues and coaches, when my son was growing up, were more interested in the develop aspect than actually win-loss at very early ages. So little time was set aside for practices, you learned as you go, on the job training so to speak. It is a recreational activity at 7,8,9, etc, isn't it? Not sure exactly what parents are looking for these days. IMO, it may be that being more competitive at an earlier age may make them a top prospect at 17, 18. Doesn't work that way folks.
It's hard enough for a young pitcher to try to concentrate on the batter in the box, let alone worry about the guy on first trying to steal. Extra work on his arm that is not necessary. Does a 9 year old have the accuracy in his throw to the first baseman? Hitters are trying to learn how to hit the ball at that age so it goes past the infieldad, now you want to teach them to keep it inside?
This is just my opinion, but now it actually makes more sense why he didn't do these things very early on.

I think I know the answer to that one:
( ssmom's hand waving in the air )
Serious ball players ( @ age 9 ) make
the time.

That was truly the hard part. The league had an 18 game schedule and ran from April through June. The tournaments were on the weekends and depending on how deep you were able to go in it was where you might pick up some more games. We often didn't go very far. Much of the practice was before the season started because I know you know that during the season it becomes very difficult. Often times after plays in games weren't run properly that is when the next practice the kids learned the most because they saw what happened and were able to relate the coaching to the game. Such as a bunt or throwing to the wrong base, etc.

I do remember practice almost every day after school and games on Saturday, once the season started. At age 9 it was more about the practices and learning of the game than the actual playing of one game a week, where we lived.
I must add,...my sons had the best Coach ever at that age. We are all still grateful to the man,...still grateful.

If you are not used to it I'm sure it is hard to understand. I myself like many others grew up playing 10 games a year. Playing 60ft base until 13 and then being move to 90. These kids start at 65ft bases and gradually move up in distance until 14. While I did see some parents going over board I know many who told their kids if it's too much for you or if I think it is too much for you then you're done. All the kids played other sports, football and basketball especially but when summer came around it was baseball.
There is not an infield dad or an outfild dad and that is also why not every kid is chosen. There were other leagues where kids could play so no one was left out. We were never the best team but the kids got much better instruction then the alternative of a dad who was giving everything he had and will always be appreciated accept the time which he was not able to provide.
It is not for everyone and that's okay, is it about being a prospect, not in our case though I'm sure it happens. Did every kid get a trophy, no. Did the kids get great instruction, meet many more kids from other neighborhoods, get to have fun and learn without knowing it. Sure. I know in our case when it rained or was to cold or whatever my son would go outside play with his friends and wait until he could do it all over again.

The link below shows a chart of what is done in our area at each age group.

Many kids in our area still don't know real baseball because even at 14u all are allowed to hit, players are allowed to be substituted in and out freely. They don't understand that in the near future they may not even get into the game or once they have been taken out they sit the rest of the game. I've made sure my boy understands this and if he wants to play he has to work hard and earn the playing time.


Age Groups

Why the rush these days?

Do parents actually think that learning these things at early ages will make them better players? Is it about what is right for youth players or grown up parents?

Perhaps the world is rushing too fast and no one wants to be left behind. (?)
Technology, the internet, video games, the media,....information super highway,
equipment advancement, records being broken, etc. etc.


( Not saying I like it. I'm much more of a sandlot kinda' gal myself. Very grateful my kids lived on an Air Force base, out in the middle of no-where. There wasnt much but some air plane hangers, ( we didn't have a computer yet ) a small fishing creek crick, a swimming pool, and a baseball field that they rode their bikes by to & from school everyday. It was hot, dry, & dusty, and my boys learned ( from an amazing aiplane mechanic/coach ) about a game called baseball. )

My just turned 13 year old daughter hasnt had that type of experiece. Upon entering 7th grade this year, she eeked by and made the school volleyball team. We quickly realized she was waaay behind the power curve, experience wise. Who knew? These girls were 12 for Pete's sake. Should I have started her at 8?
( We were busy doing the pink ballerina and tap thing at that time. ) Should I have mommie guilt?

Her 7th grade team mates had all played tournament volleyball and played quite competitivly. Next year at 8th grade if you can't serve overhand and spike, you don't make the team. EEK!

After her 1st school team season, we were thrown into a very short period of tournament team tryouts ( where you had to pay by the way, to even tryout,..whats up with that? )
Then bam,...she makes a team, they want $800-$1200+ ( How MUCH-egads!??), volleyball shoes $80, custom made uniforms $$$$, traveling fees, matching warm up bags, wam-bam,....zip zing,..100 mph and were off. Pant pant ,...spin.

There was no slow approach, no Walmart volleyball shoes/cleats, no easy practices where you learn about being a better human being and not only about being an olympic competitor, geesh!!!
It is what it is,..but I have a strong feeling she missed some on some of the more important life fundamentals, that her older brothers got the pleasure of learning, the ol' fashioned way.

My son didn't pick up a baseball untill the day before LL tryouts when he was 8. Was the starting 3rd baseman on his team (so how competitive could this 8-9 yr old team be?) As I recall there were alot of wild pitches, thank goodness there was no stealing basebases.
LL is for having fun playing baseball, learning to love the game. Relax and enjoy the Joy of childhood, the game gets competitive soon enough.....so competitive in fact that its no longer a game.

When my son was young, his dad took him often to watch minor league games, spring training games, where he got to learn about "real baseball" (according to young son). I think that watching so much at such an early age instead of practicing for many hours a week taught him alot.

But things have changed, parents these days feel their sons can't learn unless at very early ages they play as much as they can, I do not beleive this is true.

When son was 8,9, 10 he played 2 games a week, very little practice as on other days the fields were used for games for other divisons. it sure didn't hinder his understanding of the game or his development.

For 99.99% of the kids picking up a glove at age 5, it is, and always will be, a game. Not a career, not a ticket to college, but a game. A wonderful game. Different rules at younger ages causes me no concern. The guys that will take it further are not hindered by not being able to take a lead at age 8 in the slightest.

As a Little League president, I lobbied hard to use the pitching machine till kids were 10, because more kids played, they weren't afraid of getting hit by a pitch, and the games were fun. The more advanced guys blossomed and moved up to the pitching league (Major League is what it's called in LL) at age 10, but most "stayed down" and had a ball. Let it be played in a fashion that makes it fun, and they'll enjoy and learn the game...and buy tickets to see the "serious" guys play when they get older.

Hokieone,

Playing in LL league at any level is fine nothing whatsoever is wrong with that. Just as playing competitvely there is nothing wrong with it as long as the parents keep it in perspective. Some don't just as some HS and College parents don't.
My son never missed a birthday party, a pool party a neighborhood function, whatever because of baseball. Yet when a coach lines the entire team up and hits them all flyballs and there is no instruction and the first player to the field gets to bat first and pitch. This actually happened to us. There has got to be some alternative.

If I could get my son to watch a game it would have been amazing. It was back then kind of like if I'm not playing I'd rather play with my friends. Different now but at 7,8 or 9 if it wasn't at Yankee Stadium he didn't want to know about it.

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Originally posted by 20dad:
this has bugged me for years so i'm going to see if it's just me.
why is it in baseball the biggest youth baseball organization doesn't play real baseball? every other sport plays the same from 5 to 50 but baseball. no leading no stealing, then when they reach 13 they have to learn all this on a much bigger field?

... am i the only one who thinks this way? what do you do in your town?

The only time this realy bothered me was when I heard about Danny Almonte throwing the PG at the LLWS before the scandal. I thought my son could have pitched a few PGs without a dropped third strike rule and no stealing.

The answer to your uneasiness is that it's just different strokes for different folks. My son had to endure my awful pitching on his coach-pitch LL team. The team stunk. Fortunately for him at that time, he was also a successful 8YO, pitching on a U-10 team. That team also wasn't very good, but he had fun and grew in spite of it. He continued to play rec and select until he was in junior high. I imagine that one was more fun than the other. But it was another opportunity to do what he loves.

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By Hokieone - For 99.99% of the kids picking up a glove at age 5, it is, and always will be, a game. Not a career, not a ticket to college, but a game. A wonderful game. Different rules at younger ages causes me no concern. The guys that will take it further are not hindered by not being able to take a lead at age 8 in the slightest.

As a Little League president, I lobbied hard to use the pitching machine till kids were 10, because more kids played, they weren't afraid of getting hit by a pitch, and the games were fun. The more advanced guys blossomed and moved up to the pitching league (Major League is what it's called in LL) at age 10, but most "stayed down" and had a ball. Let it be played in a fashion that makes it fun, and they'll enjoy and learn the game...and buy tickets to see the "serious" guys play when they get older.

As people who love the game and care about the future of the game, we should all be thinking along the lines of what "Hokieone" has posted. The very first step (IMO) is to figure out how to get young people to fall in love with the game. #1 most important thing... Make sure the kids have fun.

Fun = Enjoyment and helps in many ways.

People tend to want to learn and work harder to become much better at those things they enjoy doing. So the future "prospects" start by having fun.

People tend to remain interested (become fans) in those things they enjoy. So the future die hard "fans" start by having fun.

To me... The most important goal adults should have regarding baseball at the very youngest ages, is to make sure the kids are having fun. Then hope that having all this fun creates some life long memories.

I am 60 years old and can't remember what happened yesterday, but thanks to some very good people, I can vividly remember specific baseball things that happened 51 years ago, just as if it happened yesterday. In fact, it is my theory that most all of us are that way. Try to create a positive life long memory in young children and we help both the child and the game of baseball.

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Originally posted by bb1:
If I could get my son to watch a game it would have been amazing. It was back then kind of like if I'm not playing I'd rather play with my friends. Different now but at 7,8 or 9 if it wasn't at Yankee Stadium he didn't want to know about it.

Shame, because the best games you might see are those coming from minor league games.

bbscout, a VERY wise scout, gave some advice about how important it is for young players to WATCH the game.

You learn alot by observing.

Our 8-9 yo played machine pitch. It was very competetive and we travelled to 3-4 large tournaments in Ontario. Prior to this my son played softball. He asked if he could play real BB and we signed him up with the local BB AAA team.
It was very eye opening but a real blast. Right down to the top of the line pin stripe uniforms and over nigh tourneys. My son tried out for this team and was carded which means he was a call up. He played what you call rec league and there were 11 teams. When my son was carded we acepted that as he really was not well trained but after a few weeks the AAA coach called and had been watching him in several games and wanted him on his team. We said no and that he would not leave his team and the great coaches he had. They went to the league and asked if he could play both levels and the league agreed that he could. (the trouble that caused is a whole other story). The travel team was very good and he got good training from bothe teams. One rec coach was a former minot league pitcher with Boston and showed him special attention. The AAA team played 40 games a season and also worked out about 2 times during the week.
At 9-10 minor mosquito they started pitching and much like BKE the age brackets and rules were applied. Pitching limits until bantam and shorter bases etc.
The desire to be competetive was all on my son. We had nothing to do with his moves other than financial limits. When he was 15 he wanted elite ball. More games ,more coaching and higher competition. I really don't think you can get to college level without it coming from the player.Even more they can't go through the grilling and training to hang in there.

Good thread, great post hokie.
I'll never forget the first time son put on those metal cleats and walked to the field. The look on his face and the difference in his stride was priceless.

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The look on his face and the difference in his stride was priceless.

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why is it in baseball the biggest youth baseball organization doesn't play real baseball? every other sport plays the same from 5 to 50 but baseball. no leading no stealing, then when they reach 13 they have to learn all this on a much bigger field?

I just watched a 12 year old game yesterday on 70 foot base paths, 50 foot mound played like "real" baseball. This was a local rec league. The average player at that level just does not have the catch and throw skills to play "real" baseball. The only thing that prevented the game from being a track meet was that it was the first year for everyone doing this and the runners were also timid in taking leads. This is what I see in my area in terms of AVERAGE players.

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Originally posted by captlid:
I just watched a 12 year old game yesterday on 70 foot base paths, 50 foot mound played like "real" baseball. This was a local rec league. The average player at that level just does not have the catch and throw skills to play "real" baseball. The only thing that prevented the game from being a track meet was that it was the first year for everyone doing this and the runners were also timid in taking leads. This is what I see in my area in terms of AVERAGE players.

The Bronco (11 & 12) average players in my son's PONY league didn't seem to struggle with the adjustment to 70'. I also happened to think it was a very well run league. Great players and (with a very few exceptions) great parents. Maybe we got lucky. Then again, I think the league may have played a big part in our decision to move to that particular neighborhood.

It is very difficult for people who haven't been through it to believe it is not about the parents, not about being a prospect, not about anything but baseball. Some kids enjoy more. To some less is more. I'm sure many ways work but somewhere along the line some kids do get much better instruction then others and it shows.
I'm also struggling with the idea that a 9yr old playing real baseball doesn't understand yet if he was watching according to a bbscout he learns.

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Some kids enjoy more. To some less is more. I'm sure many ways work but somewhere along the line some kids do get much better instruction then others and it shows.

That is all very true. However, that instruction has much better results when given to someone who really wants it. For those kids that think "less is more"... Well, I doubt if they will respond to good instruction as well as those who can't get enough. I think we would all agree that "wanting it" is an important ingredient in attempting to reach potential at anything. IMO that all starts when someone really truly enjoys what they're doing and can't get enough of it.

Not saying the other way can't work, just saying the enjoyment way works much better. Of course, to take it another step... regarding ability... Kids tend to enjoy the things they are naturally good at.

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People tend to want to learn and work harder to become much better at those things they enjoy doing. So the future "prospects" start by having fun.

Why they enjoy it is up to them. I just wish everyone would think about making it as enjoyable as possible at the youngest ages. Some will end up enjoying instruction and competition as they progress then someone needs to provide that, too.

IMO first comes the genuine love for the game... then comes the rest! Some people have that back asswards!

some very good post on this subject. my point isn't about compitition at a young age. or prospects, it's the game. when kids play football at 10 they play football rules, same with basketball .the baskets may be shorter but same rules. golf,s****r etc. what makes baseball so difficult that a whole country thinks 11 and 12 years olds can't get it? it can still be fun can't it? there will always be the snowball fights, that won't change. maybe i am one of the few that think this is the better way to learn the game. i wonder if there would be more or better instruction,since it would then be the same game all the way up?

20dad,
Baserunners learn to steal, pitchers learn to hold them off.
How can you ask or expect a young pither (8,9) just learning how to pitch to try to keep someone from stealing. They would be stealing on him all day, because in most chances he would not make an accurate or the first baseman can't catch it. Scores would be out of sight!

No one brought up anyting about future prospects (no such thing at 8,9). IMO, some skills have to mastered before others can be taught. Does a baby walk before he crawls? The whole idea is for kids to have fun, period.

Isn't there progression in this game, or do we cram it down an 8,9 year olds throat all at once? Isn't this game built on strategy, how do you expect an 8,9 year old to know strategy.

I do no think that 8,9 year olds need to learn how to steal, bunt, lead off. It's the parents that need for them to learn these things, to make it more competitive and interesting for THEM, not the kids.

JMO.

My son played in this type of league. Did they steal on him. Nope. Did we steal on the catchers, sometimes, sometimes not. Anyone who has been involved with this type of league and there are many across the country knows how it really is. It is fun for the kids, they like to be able to run and throw and hit against each other. Is it perfect by no means it is not. Do the kids learn better fundamentals, absolutely they do.
There are kids that would rather play rec and LL and that's fine but there are a lot who want to do more and that's fine too. As usual though the parents always come up with the short end of the stick. They are pushing too hard. The kids are too young to learn and do not know what they want to that I say watch and see before you judge.

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Originally posted by 20dad:
i wonder if there would be more or better instruction,since it would then be the same game all the way up?

From that same game I watched yesterday. The dropped third strike rule came up three times in the game. Bases loaded and two outs. No one ever instructed the catcher to just step on home plate. What did the kid do? Throw to first and then you can imagine all hell broke loose.

Another example, the runner on third took a good 25 foot lead off the base. If the thirdbaseman had been paying attention the pitcher or catcher could have gotten him in a rundown.

IMHO, they are just not ready physically or mentally for all these things, because the coaches have limited practice time to work on these things with them. At least in my area the northeast.

Pitchers at that age should concentrating on throwing strikes, catcher's catching the ball. They can deal with all the runners when they get bigger and stronger. Baseball is a high skill game, catching, throwing and hitting a small projectile aint easy.

nothing to do with parents or 9 year olds.it;s about the game. why is it that it's so hard to picture? it's baseball. we have been fed LL rules in our generation,so it's what we know. i'm just thinking outside the box. right or wrong. but i do think it would be fun.isn't every 8 or 9 year old a future prospect? at least until there not?

If the coach does have limited time for practice that could definitely be an issue. The leagues that I am aware of that are run this way usually get enough practice time. I've seen the play you describe about stepping on home plate on a dropped third strike happen in HS. I've seen a HS catcher throw to first on a dropped third strike with less than 2 outs and the base occupied. It happens at all levels. Regardless of age. I've also seen a lefthanded 9yr old pitcher pick off a kid at third. Some kids are not ready to play at this level and some don't want to. The leagues in our area hold tryouts for this and some play and some play in other leagues. It doesn't mean one is better than another it is just that some are ready and some are not. These leagues are available for those who can and there are others for kids that are not as serious but still want to play. It all works.

Great posts here by all.I think everyone has to decide for their own as well as theri child whether this type of baseball is for them. I feel very blessed that I have 2 boys that have developed a definite love for the game.From being in the stroller at Dad's games to being the batboy while Dad's team is playing to now developing a lot of their own skills and talents for the game.They have definitely become students of the game as well,having been around it so much and heard it talked about in the dugouts w/ dad's teamtes and friends. We are also able to focus so much on fundamentals being from this mostly cold state.We have a wonderful indoor facility to train at that one of my friends own, of which we have the key, so we can get in there whenever we want.It's kinda funny and peculiar as well when your 14yo says "hey Dad, your arm is lagging behind your body", and why did you throw that guy a curve when he didn't prove he could hit your fastball?!Anyway , I think there are quite a few kids ready for this type of baseball at our facility, and at the same time some are not.By the way SS MOM thanks for the kind words! I know I and my wife will cherish these days for soon enough they will be gone.