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My son played khoury league, if you know the rules you will know what I am talking about.

bb1,
Don't assume that I might not know what you are talking about because you know nothing about me. My opinion is not always refelcted upon lack of experience.

When my son was 10 years old I witnessed adults strangling each other because the game now became an adults game played with adult rules.
This is one of my FAVORITE topics (tongue in cheek). We live in a town where we had a thriving LL program that competed for players with a travel program that was in our same boundaries. We were ocnstantly told that we didn't play "REAL" baseball - because we didn't lead off or steal.

But is it REAL when the bases aren't 90 feet apart... is it REAL when the pitcher is less than 60 feet from the batter? The original poster said something to the effect that this only happens in baseball, and yet in youth league basketball the basket is lowered,they use a smaller ball, they play shorter quarters, they may not play with a 3 point line and if they do, it's closer... heck it's closer ALL THE WAY THROUGH COLLEGE! S****r fields are smaller for 5 year olds than they are for professional teams, and yet no one accuses youth s****r leagues of not playing "REAL" s****r. Peewee football teams play with a smaller football - collegiate girls basketball is played with a smaller ball. Does that make it any less REAL?

If you want it REAL fellas, put your COMPETITIVE 9 year old team on a REAL field - 90 foot base paths, 60 foot mound, put the fences at 400+ feet (there go the homeruns you all love so much) and push that backstop WAAAAAAAAY back... then let's see if they steal on your catcher.

We've taken All Star Little League teams to play in "REAL" tournaments and our kids knew exactly how to lead off and steal and hold runners on, even though they had never played that way. And you know what, it didn't really make the games any more fun because the bases were 75 feet apart instead of 60... different, yes, but definitely not better. And all teams do is run and run and run, because not many boys under the age of 12 have the physical ability to fire that ball down to 2nd.

The 60 foot Little League field was designed to fit the smaller players - but it's a perfect scale of the full sized field. It's a faster paced defensive game - infielders definitely have to be on their toes to make the plays. The pitching is faster too, than it is on a bigger field - maybe that's why so many young pitchers are suffering from arm trouble... pitching on a too big field too soon.

I LOVE LITTLE LEAGUE - kiddy baseball is right... after all, they are KIDS!
There is nothing wrong with LL. Millions of kids grow up playing it. There is also nothing wrong with competitive, select, travel ( whatever you want to call It) baseball. Of course as in every other sport the kids are not physically mature enough to play on a full size field. What is wrong though with playing full rules? As for homeruns. They are few and far between and not usually over a fence but over the outfield with no fence. The tournaments that are played are often dominated by a few teams. Playing against them is how you get better, and even winning sometime, the kids love it. 10 running everyone in town is not fun for any of the kids.
Arm trouble usually is an overuse injury and that is where coaches and parents need to keep a close eye on their kids. I didn't and my son suffered because of it. Not because he pitched too much but because he never had a break, spring, summer, winter whatever. I won't let it happen to him again. I learned my lesson through his pain and I will always remember it. Other than that the injury he says he wouldn't change a thing. How about traveling to Cooperstown for a 12yr old tournament with 96 teams from around the US and Canada. Staying in a dorm with your friends. Trading pins with teams from across the country. Hitting your first homer at the tournament. Best of all going to Yankee vs. Red Sox at Yankee Stadium and watching Derek Jeter go diving into the stands to make a catch. Yes, we happened to be there and without this type of baseball we wouldn't have been there and missed a memory that will last a life time. Also being able to drive a boat as a 12yr old down the Hudson to the Statue of Liberty. Finally going to the Hall of Fame. Awesome place, awesome town. Hope to go back someday.
Last edited by bb1
I'm glad my son played LL. I think playing "real baseball" would have frustrated him at that age.
Playing LL he gained confidence and that confidence in his ability helped him develope into a better baseball player.
When they reach their teens they all play "real baseball"
I don't think playing Little League is going to keep a child from developing into a good HS,college or pro player.
Last edited by njbb
My interest in this thread had absolutely nothing to do with the rules or whether or not players can lead off. Also, not about how well he is instructed, how big the field dimensions are, the pitching distance or whether or not some young boy might be a prospect.

If a young boy has a bat, a glove and a ball… He can play baseball in some fashion. What matters the most is how much he enjoys it!
my three sons

i understand the size of the fields are smaller and maybe the ball as well.but the rules are the same. while it is clear that you are all very passionate about your baseball, i expected nothing less. both my son's played LL as well,and had a ball doing it. i coached and had more fun than both of them.
my thoughts weren't as deap as some of the replys. i didn't think that this was all about parents, i didn't think this was about 8 or 9 year olds. i really didn't think this was to complicated idea for an 11 or 12 year old to do.and i wasn't bashing coaches.
why do the rules of the game become real at 13 or 14? is it that they think faster at that age? or their motor skills are developed enough? how do their skills develop? don't they watch games that are played that way? or is it because it's just what we did?
nobody loves baseball more than me,and i don't have a burning desire for kids to fail. i believe it should be fun for every one. all i'm saying is why are the rules so drasticly different from 12 to 13? then we wonder why they drop out of the game in droves when it gets tougher? is it that they aren't enjoying the success they did in LL? my memory of my early baseball is a fond one not because i was good, because it was fun. and i don;t think playing 50 foot mounds 70 foot bases, w/leading and stealing would be any less fun. i think it may be more fun. and maybe keep kids in it a little longer. as long as your playing and having fun who cares.but that's just one mans opinion.
I have to disagree that every other sport plays the same 5-50. My sons have played basketball and s****r, in addition to LL baseball. In s****r they started playing 4on 4 with no goalies and my 10 year old is still playing on a small field. In basketball there is no back court defense, no zone defense, and 8 foot baskets. I think its easier to learn the fundamentals and for the kids to have fun when things are their size and there not overwhelmed with rules
The rules are adapted specifically to fit the size of the field - leading off and stealing on 70 foot base paths gives a huge advantage to the runner. Can a 9 year old pitcher effectively hold a runner on? Can his 9 year old battery mate throw a runner out at second? In a few cases the answer is yes - but in most, no.

We've also heard all the great stories about traveling teams going to Cooperstown or wherever and playing baseball, sightseeing, swimming in the pool, etc. And it is fun - we did it when our boys were 13-16. (It's also distracting and exhausting and expensive and time consuming and rarely do the boys play their best baseball because they're too busy with all the "other stuff" - but that's another discussion.)

However, it's also tons of fun to play a district or sectional LL tournament on your hometown field (we hosted a number of them) and have all your friends, neighbors and relatives come and see you play. It's also incredibly fun to play in LL tournaments where you know the level of competition you are going to face will be consistently good. We've played in plenty of so-called state or national travel tournaments where you have no idea what kind of competition you will face. We've seen teams that wouldn't be able to compete in a rec league, and yet there they were "competing" for the state or national championship.

There's no measuring stick in travel ball. We have yet to play on a travel or club team that did not manage to make it to a national tournament one way or another, because there's plenty of those to go around. LL has one tournament and one World Champion - everyone else has to deal with finishing somewhere other than first place. That's "real" baseball.


20dad - you end your post by saying "as long as you're playing and having fun, who cares?" I would agree - so where's the debate? Smile
The question was asked earlier, what is competitive for a 9 year-old?

When my son was at that age I would define it as:

Competitive baseball is for the kid who wants to learn to play, the rec league is the baby sitting service for the mom and dads who either just drop off the kids or are forcing them to play.

In our fall season, we often picked up kids from the "rec" league, due to the limited number of teams, and so often, even up to the age of 12, parents would ask if their sons could play with us in the spring because it was the first time anyone had shown them how to.....whatever. I even put together a fall high school based team once and had a sophomore tell me that it was the first time anyone had shown him how to catch and get rid of the ball quickly(he's a catcher). SO, be sure your child gets some “real” training/coaching. It’s more important than playing “real” baseball. The rest will take care of itself over time.

Oh by the way, we started playing "real" baseball at age 9. And yes a walk was as good as a triple, but the kids loved it. By the time they were of the age to play high school ball, they were leeps above the other guys.
Last edited by obrady
Things are starting to make more sense to me now.
I just could not figure out all the histrionics about all these many bad parents making all these excuses. I don't know if those strangulations were witnessed in the developmental league, but my son has gone from tee-ball to college and I feel very fortunate to have met more wonderful knowledge- filled people at the "ballparks" than anywhere else. Can count on one hand the jerks.
I do understand how it could happen at the HS level, after all, those strangulating people must converge somewhere.
Thankfully....the cream ALWAYS rises to the top.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bb1:
My son played in this type of league. Did they steal on him. Nope. Did we steal on the catchers, sometimes, sometimes not. Anyone who has been involved with this type of league and there are many across the country knows how it really is. It is fun for the kids, they like to be able to run and throw and hit against each other. Is it perfect by no means it is not. Do the kids learn better fundamentals, absolutely they do.

TPM,

You can see a lot of the 9 YO Travel teams down in SFLA. If the kids can handle it and want to learn it then I feel it's OK. Some players can handle the "real game" at this age and some can't. We played a lot of great teams at the 9 YO travel age and several were from SFLA. JMHO
my three sons
i guess i really didn't think about a debate when i started this topic. it took some turns that i didn't think it would. it was never about 9 and 10 year olds. but why wouldn't a 9 and 10 LL all star team playing on a LL sized field be w/ leading and stealing be fun to watch?
while you keep saying other sports have different size equalizers, at 11 and 12 don't they still play the same rules as the 14 yr olds? we are creatures of habit and it's been this way for most of us for a very long time. and that's ok . as i said it still bugs me that we think this way,but i'll get over it.lol.
as i sad i didn't cosider this a debate ,but it certainly sparked a very good one.and maybe got some people thinking what if? and as long as everyone is playing and having fun. at the end of the day that's what's important.

tpm i did my homework .
"The Khoury Leagues Is Interested In
The Child That Nobody Else Wants"
quote:
Competitive baseball is for the kid who wants to learn to play, the rec league is the baby sitting service for the mom and dads who either just drop off the kids or are forcing them to play.

In our fall season, we often picked up kids from the "rec" league, due to the limited number of teams, and so often, even up to the age of 12, parents would ask if their sons could play with us in the spring because it was the first time anyone had shown them how to.....whatever. I even put together a fall high school based team once and had a sophomore tell me that it was the first time anyone had shown him how to catch and get rid of the ball quickly(he's a catcher). SO, be sure your child gets some “real” training/coaching. It’s more important than playing “real” baseball. The rest will take care of itself over time.


I hope you're not tying bad coaching/instruction to rec league or LL. Bad coaching happens at all levels. Including travel baseball. The common theme that seems to exist on this board is that for kids to "truly" experience baseball, they have to play travel ball because a child will recieve better coaching and talent to play with. To some extent this is true. And to some it's not. I know a few families that have told me absolute horror stories about travel ball. In particular paying thousands of dollars to get on the team, travel and ultimately their child did not see one minute on the field. IMO, success/fun boils down to coaching combined with a child's "want" to learn the game. They both have to exist. No matter what league/team you play on.
quote:
by 20dad: (some say) they are too young to understand the game, yet we teach spanish in the 3rd grade
yup! you prompted me to look up Lonnie's revelation

by Lonnie (from Little Big League): Kids today are amazing - I played winter ball down in Venezuala, all the the kids spoke Spanish & that's a hard language! Big Grin



I think that as long as the kids are getting some instruction and getting better they will enjoy no matter what organization they're playing in. but when some adults have low expectations on what kids can learn & don't offer them enough challenge, it'll get mundane for the bright students ... imo
quote:
I know a few families that have told me absolute horror stories about travel ball. In particular paying thousands of dollars to get on the team, travel and ultimately their child did not see one minute on the field.


I have seen this many times.
In our area ther has been a huge increase in Elite teams and yes the coaching is a lot better. ML quality coaches usually run the programs and they charge big money to play all year. Our travel AAA ball has some good coaches but the Elite teams developed because there was a demand for the hidghest level of coaching and to get away from dads coaching their sons. The large fees were needed to travel to better tournaments and better competition.
After 2 years in LL t-ball in a differnet town, someone told my husband that in the next town over rec ball played Khoury rules, were he could pitch right away. I was not in favor of it, but we signed up anyway.

Most of the people that had been in our local khoury had been playing against each other for years (older players) and already established relationships (good and bad). My husband coached for TWO seasons and I thought he was going to have a breakdown. The last straw was when a parent thought the umpire made a bad call and the parent rushed onto the field and starting beating up the umpire. That was one incident.

Son had adequate coaching and did learn a lot from the experience in more ways then one. By the time son was 10 traveling had become an option, so my son was chosen for the "traveling" Khoury league, which only included travel close towns.

Travel is very big in FL now, many teams do not join a league specifically. Parents pay big dollars and many still do not play, as mentioned above.


I realize things have changed since my son was 9, that was over 12 years ago. But I still believe that rules should follow progression in age and feild dimensions. If the kids are having fun, nothing else matters, but sometimes I wonder who is having more fun, parents or their players. JMO.
Pat, I always only speak to my experiances, no one elses, and yes most of the rec league coaches were parents drafted because no one else would do it. Often that is issue one for kid, no one is interested enough to even throw with the kid at home between practices, or as I said, it's just a baby sitting service.

I've often thought that I would take up the clip board again once my son is grown and gone. MAybe more of us should.

And to add to my definition of bad coaches, my son's two in High School coaches are bad. One little baseball knowledge, the other poor coaching skills.
Last edited by obrady
I believe what 20dad was trying to say in the original post was the big jump in field size between little league and the 13-14 age group that plays on a much larger field.
We are from Baltimore Maryland and I don't know of any leagues in our area that play by little league rules above 9-10. Our 11-12 play on 75ft. fields and 13-14 rec. have the option of 80ft. or 90ft. fields. We have local travel for the more competitive players and the Baltimore Metro league for our highest level of play. My opinion is that 11-12 yr old players playing on 60 ft fields are not helping the players at all. That field is way to small for these players. I'm not putting down the little league World Series, but watching a game where a kid is throwing in the low 70's from 46 ft. is not a game. It's the pitcher and catcher playing catch. Most batters are just swinging wildly hoping to make contact and most fielders are just standing there watching. I feel at that age the pitchers are just to close to the batters. Before you say the average kid doesn't throw that hard,there are plenty of kids at the age of 12 who can hit high 60's and 70 and more. Remember that most pitchers at that age are usually the bigger better athlete. To me that gives the pitcher to much of an advantage. Instead of pitchers having lots of strike out's,playing on a bigger field make it easier for players to put the ball in play which would make the game more fun for more players.
Also this puts them way behide the competition when trying out for high school. Depending on thier birthdate some players will have a two year advantage on the bigger fields. You may not think its much but playing on those bigger fields is a big jump. Alot of those home runs are now outs. Pitchers now have to learn how to pitch,and alot of your infielders on the left side find out they don't have the arm strength they need. The worst part is that alot of players go to high school thinking that they will have no problem making the team, just to find out the talent level they are competing against. You will also find that most kids at the 11-12 level love leading off and stealing bases,and most pitchers like that they now can pitch from the stretch and get to throw over to try and pick batters off. It makes the game more fun. Just my opinion but I think with baseball you shouldn't play little rules past 9-10. The jump from little league to 13-14 is just to much and should be done in steps (11-12 75ft. fields). To much of a jump makes kids quit and that's one of the reason's little league was having such a big problem with kids quiting after age 12.

Just my opinion.

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