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Agree with both of you.  The balls and strikes were horrible both ways last night.  The JD Martinez strikeout was borderline criminal negligence and I am an Astro fan.

I am one who is a traditionalist with regard to the robo ump discussion.  I think things should stay as they are but there has to be accountability.  The technology is already there and the umps get graded on balls and strikes every game.  There just seems to be nothing done with the information.  If an ump is consistently below par with his calls he should go, period.

An interesting side note from WWBA in Jupiter a couple of weeks ago.  It seems PG was testing a hybrid robo ump arrangement during our exhibition game.  The ump had an earpiece wired to a receiver on his belt.  There was a PG official sitting at the scorers table with a laptop monitoring each pitch via the TrackMan system that is permanently installed on the spring training field we were playin on.  It didn’t seem like the PG rep was making every ball and strike call but he definite made one in particular. My son was on the mound and throws a front hip 2 seam to a lefty batter that ran onto the inside corner. The ump hesitated, the TrackMan screen indicated the pitch was a strike and the PG official said “that was a strike” into his handset.  The ump made the strike call.  The PG rep at the computer had an earpiece so perhaps the ump was able ask on pitches he was unsure about.  It was pretty crazy.

5ABBA53F-22CC-49D2-B198-527A17C8354F

The red box on the top left would read “out” with a red background for balls out of the zone and “in” with a green background for balls in the zone.  

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Here is how it works from an article when they experimented with it in the Atlantic League:



“Here's how the new balls and strikes technology works: An official in the press box monitors a laptop running the TrackMan radar system that electronically determines balls and strikes. That information is immediately relayed to the umpire using a wireless earpiece.  The pitches are tracked through a large Doppler radar screen high above home plate. The radar system measures a player's height and creates a strike zone.”



https://www.ydr.com/story/spor...pro-game/1688525001/

@PTWood posted:

I was thinking of a) using the data to retrain or move umps back to the minors just like they do players and/or b) giving teams a real time challenge like tennis. Not one that takes forever to go to headsets and have to call NY or whatever they do.

I like the real time challenge like Tennis idea.  It could be done fast and might even be an amusing part of the game.  I can hear the crowd getting into it.  

@fenwaysouth posted:

Thanks for sharing the article @Senna.   I know I'm going to catch a lot of sh*t for this, but I'll say it anyway.....for all that is holy please bring in the robo-umpires to call balls and strikes.   I'm tired of this idea that "we've got to keep the human factor alive in the game".  No we don't, we really freaking don't!   

I'm your typical MLB fan today...I'm 59 years old and I've loved the game since I could say "Rico Petrocelli".    At 59 I've embraced technology in my life and made a career of it.  It can do very positive things for our everyday lives.  Other major and minor sports across the globe have gone in that direction.  All major tennis tournament line calls have gone 100% to computers through Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning.   There are no tennis player line call arguments and play continues.  It really is that simple.  If a computer can handle service line calls in the 130-140mph range it most certainly can learn and handle anything else with the video technology available today.  Baseball is in need of a major overhaul.  The money is too big and we've got to grow the fan base as we compete with other sports that use technology.   If professional baseball want to appeal to younger generations they have to move forward with the use of technology otherwise baseball is going to become the sport that only grandmas and grandpas follow.

Sorry, end of rant.  I'm cranky when the Red Sox lose.  I'd be significantly crankier if I was a Giants fan.

I agree. The mlb umps are really good, even the bad ones get over 90% of the calls behind the plate right, but the stuff of the modern pitchers is so good and powerful that even the best umpires are going to get fooled and a single wrong call can have no effect at all (say when it is 2 outs bases empty and a team leads 4-0) but also can have a huge impact (say 2 out with bases loaded at 3-2 count).

We don't need the human element there, just get tech that is getting it 100% right.

I know robo ump as it was in the Atlantic league has problems too, players report very strange strike calls because the machine would call pitches that clip the 3d zone in certain ways strikes that a real ump never would but you can adjust to that by adjusting the zone. The actual rule book zone is probably not ideal for the robo ump as human umps unconsciously have made the zone a bit more hitter friendly (wider but shorter top and bottom) but you can adjust the computer to account for that while still getting the accuracy benefit

@Dominik85 posted:

I agree. The mlb umps are really good, even the bad ones get over 90% of the calls behind the plate right, but the stuff of the modern pitchers is so good and powerful that even the best umpires are going to get fooled and a single wrong call can have no effect at all (say when it is 2 outs bases empty and a team leads 4-0) but also can have a huge impact (say 2 out with bases loaded at 3-2 count).

We don't need the human element there, just get tech that is getting it 100% right.

I know robo ump as it was in the Atlantic league has problems too, players report very strange strike calls because the machine would call pitches that clip the 3d zone in certain ways strikes that a real ump never would but you can adjust to that by adjusting the zone. The actual rule book zone is probably not ideal for the robo ump as human umps unconsciously have made the zone a bit more hitter friendly (wider but shorter top and bottom) but you can adjust the computer to account for that while still getting the accuracy benefit

I'm barely aware of tennis, but I believe that the sport employs a hybrid system where technology is leveraged but the ultimate call is made by a person?  Maybe there is something similar for baseball.

@K9 posted:

I'm barely aware of tennis, but I believe that the sport employs a hybrid system where technology is leveraged but the ultimate call is made by a person?  Maybe there is something similar for baseball.

K9,

FYI......Line calls are handled by the technology and kept in check (managed) by the chair umpire who activates the system during each point.  Players have the opportunity to challenge 3 line calls per set plus an additional line call if the set moves into a 7-point tiebreaker.  The number of challenges is reset back to 3 when a new set starts.   If a player challenges the computer call, he will soon be disappointed when they display the video to him and the folks in the stands.   I've heard announcers say the line calls are accurate to 1mm.   When the ball is called out, a synthetic recorded human voice immediately makes the line call.    The umpire is responsible for keeping the match moving forward in all respects.   2021 was the first year that all the major open tournaments (except the French Open because it is clay) have used this line calling system.   It isn't a cheap system, but with the total prize money and exposure across network TV I think the folks that run these tourneys plus the ATP (men) and WTA (women) organizations really wanted this.   There have been issues in the past where some players got screwed on some big calls (not all tennis points have the same value) and they didn't want to repeat it and give the sport another "black-eye"....or a Don Denkinger World Series moment calling the runner safe.

As for the players, they know immediately when a ball is in or out and that it is an ACCURATE call.  The only reason a player is going to make a challenge is they want to see it with their own eyes, or they want to slow the momentum of the match which is typically about a 30 second break.

Last edited by fenwaysouth

Interesting that my post took an unintended but thoroughly interesting turn.

Those who are Athletic subscribers can see this article about grading umps: https://theathletic.com/288617...k-balls-and-strikes/

My only thoughts on this is that I like the way that it was done in the Atlantic league. Gives the ump the ability to overrule HAL, but also have HAL as a backup/confirmation. Ump is still the arbiter of calls.

Oy - Red Sox are doing damage to the Astros, the Braves are finding ways to win against the Dodgers, and the conversation is all about Robo-umps .

Tough break for the 'Stros with their pitching staff injuries... The Sox have caught lightning in a bottle and are looking to keep up the pressure. I know we still have a long way to go in both series, but surely no one saw this coming, right?  I (still) wish these games wouldn't start at 8 especially when they last 4 hours and the next day starts way too early.

@JohnF posted:

Oy - Red Sox are doing damage to the Astros, the Braves are finding ways to win against the Dodgers, and the conversation is all about Robo-umps .

Tough break for the 'Stros with their pitching staff injuries... The Sox have caught lightning in a bottle and are looking to keep up the pressure. I know we still have a long way to go in both series, but surely no one saw this coming, right?  I (still) wish these games wouldn't start at 8 especially when they last 4 hours and the next day starts way too early.

Correct.  I think most in Red Sox Nation would say they never saw this coming.   If they say they saw it coming they are liars!  How they backed into the AL wildcard playoff is a great example.   There is still a lot of baseball to play, and Houston is a talented team

Frankly, I was giddy they beat the Yankees and that more than met my expectations.  Now, they are just showing off.  That concerns me a little, but Cora will keep them in line.   There were many times during the regular season that I questioned some of Cora's decisions.  I questioned starting Sale in game 1 against Houston which ended up being a closer game than anticipated.   I think Cora has also stepped up his game in the playoffs.  He is managing with urgency in mind, and it suits him well.

JMO

I freely admit I still hold a grudge against both teams in the ALCS over the 2017 & 2018 cheating scandals that resulted in not a single player being penalized.  (And I'm a Rays fan, so discount my views because of that as you wish.)  But I can't help but think it's...  interesting... that the team that stole signs in 2018 and is coached by the guy involved in both the Houston and Boston cheating schemes has suddenly had an offensive explosion after a less-than-stellar season.  And this was two postseasons ago, so it's not exactly ancient history.

Don't get me wrong though--I can't imagine rooting for the Astros either.     

@adbono posted:

Teams that advance in the playoffs are the ones that get hot at the right time. The Rays are a good ball club and I enjoyed watching them, but they didn’t play their best when it mattered the most. It’s as simple as that.

The Rays picked a bad week to have a bad week (and Boston definitely got hot).  But is the Red Sox offensive surge necessarily "as simple as that"?   MLB found that in 2018 the Red Sox, led by their current manager (who also cheated with the Astros in 2017) cheated and no one involved disputed the finding.  Cora was out of baseball for a single season, but no player suffered any consequences--other than maybe some mild reputational damage, which comments like yours suggest is pretty minor.  I have no idea whether Boston is cheating now (and neither does anyone commenting here); but I'm not even close to forgetting (much less forgiving) the guys who played for them in 2018.  Same goes for the players on the 2017 Astros.

w/r/t: cheating - they got caught.... Stealing signs wasn't something invented in 2017... other teams have been rumored to have done similar things, but they weren't caught. I don't like it either.  Let's face it video usage is the current equivalent of steroids which replaced other drugs which replaced betting...

w/r/t: getting hot - I think that's more true in hockey where the goalie can change playoff fortunes...  Although Kike's current hot streak is unbelievable... Naturally he came from the Dodgers, right?!

The Sox pitching down the stretch was awful, but something has clicked - whatever I'll take it... It doesn't hurt getting huge leads early on that's for sure, but no lead is really ever safe. E-Rod and Eovaldi I think are the only two to make it at least 5 innings and Sale is just not a factor other than a cheerleader or fear role. Believe me I would never believe Brasier could be "this effective".

The irony of the Rays series loss is they are known for creating the opener and patching together games with varied bullpen relief.  The tables got turned there it seems. One wonders if the history will look kindly on Baker using McCullers in Chicago - strange how weather played a role... Oh and wasn't there a White Sox pitcher talking smack about cheating after game 3?  Did anyone really believe the Astros would not have that on their bulletin board for game 4 motivation?

The Rays picked a bad week to have a bad week (and Boston definitely got hot).  But is the Red Sox offensive surge necessarily "as simple as that"?   MLB found that in 2018 the Red Sox, led by their current manager (who also cheated with the Astros in 2017) cheated and no one involved disputed the finding.  Cora was out of baseball for a single season, but no player suffered any consequences--other than maybe some mild reputational damage, which comments like yours suggest is pretty minor.  I have no idea whether Boston is cheating now (and neither does anyone commenting here); but I'm not even close to forgetting (much less forgiving) the guys who played for them in 2018.  Same goes for the players on the 2017 Astros.

Give it a rest. The Red Sox played better when it mattered.

@adbono posted:

Give it a rest. The Red Sox played better when it mattered.

Never questioned that.  My comments aren't about the Rays.

Boston decided to re-hire a two-time cheater in Alex Cora rather than break with the past.  I'm surprised MLB allowed it--essentially the Red Sox said "forget you, we're going to stay the course."  The cheating scandals happened in 2017, not 1917.  Many of those responsible are still representing Boston and Houston, and never faced any penalty.  A sudden offensive surge has to raise some questions.  I know that will rankle the many Red Sox fans here, but put aside the fan-colored glasses and I think you'll at least agree you have to consider it.

Rosenthal has a good article in (you guessed it) The Athletic about Brent Strom (Astros pitching coach) believing that they may be tipping pitches. https://theathletic.com/289905...-be-tipping-pitches/

"Strom...... was not suggesting the Red Sox were doing anything illegal through electronic means, something both these teams have been guilty of in the past. Rather, he was pointing to the Red Sox’s acumen at detecting anything opponents might be doing to tip pitches — old-fashioned inside baseball, the perfectly legal kind.

“This is a very good hitting team, and they’re very adept at picking up little things, much more so than most teams,” Strom said. “We need to be very cognizant of the little things, tipping-type things, things like that, that they’re very astute at. We’ve just gotten behind hitters.

“We have to re-evaluate and see if they’re seeing things that are maybe tipping the scales a little bit in their favor. These are veteran (hitters). And of course, they have the ultimate guy (Alex Cora) as their manager, who … he’s just very good at it. We just have to do a better job of watching what our pitchers do and getting ahead in the count.........

Strom said his belief the Astros might be tipping is based more on the pitches the Red Sox are laying off than the swings they are getting. On the other hand, it’s also possible the Astros are just pitching poorly, and that Cora and his players are inside Strom’s head......

Strom, while acknowledging the Red Sox are hot, said, “We’re making a lot of mistakes. Basically, we’re falling behind. We’re falling behind countless times.”

Despite what the Sox have achieved the Astros are one game from tying the series. Despite the appearance of an Astros pitching staff in shambles Sox fans are hoping their staff continues to pitch beyond the season standard. Two weeks ago I thought the Sox didn't have the pitching to win anything more than a one game crapshoot.

@Senna posted:

Rosenthal has a good article in (you guessed it) The Athletic about Brent Strom (Astros pitching coach) believing that they may be tipping pitches. https://theathletic.com/289905...-be-tipping-pitches/



Dear Mr Rosenthal,

I'm not buying the article or the Athletic subscription.   The Astros still have to field and hit the ball.   They did neither the last two games.   ALL their pitchers must be tipping pitches!  Were they tipping pitches in the first game that the Astros won?  I didn't think so.   Did you have a deadline with nothing to write about?  Total horsesh*t.   JMO.

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Last edited by fenwaysouth

Never questioned that.  My comments aren't about the Rays.

Boston decided to re-hire a two-time cheater in Alex Cora rather than break with the past.  I'm surprised MLB allowed it--essentially the Red Sox said "forget you, we're going to stay the course."  The cheating scandals happened in 2017, not 1917.  Many of those responsible are still representing Boston and Houston, and never faced any penalty.  A sudden offensive surge has to raise some questions.  I know that will rankle the many Red Sox fans here, but put aside the fan-colored glasses and I think you'll at least agree you have to consider it.

You have an exceptional ability to beat a dead horse. You obviously have made up your mind that the Red Sox are having success in the post season because they have found another way to cheat - and this is based on no evidence whatsoever. SMH

There sure are a lot of runs being scored in these games.  Not a pitchers' playoffs.

I'm sure someone here will come up with some conspiracy theory as to why

For the Sox - the postseason was a microcosm of their season - did really well at the start, held on for a few miles, but in the end too inconsistent with hitting, pitching, and defense.  Kudos to the Astros and their pitchers for being able to make their adjustments.

I feel overall the level in the playoffs is not quite like in the last 2-3 years when we had a lot of real superteams.

The astros and dodgers are really good but with all the dodger injuries they are not quite at the level of 2018-2020, same goes for the astros who are really good but don't quite have the starting rotation Quality (Verlander, Cole, better greinke) and Bullpen Quality of the last years, same goes for Boston (rotation, pen) and Atlanta (back of the rotation, no acuna).

They are good teams but each team really has significant weaknesses too unlike the astros and dodgers of the last years.

I think the shortened season and covid have taken its toll, especially on pitchers who had to go from like 60 innings to 170+ causing a lot of injuries and wear and tear.

Everyone has injuries but it's true that the Dodgers have been hit particularly hard.

As a Giants fan, I have to admit to being a poor loser and I've watched only a few innings since they were eliminated, but it sure looks like Dave Roberts lost the war with the decisions he made in winning the battle with SF.

I think I'm going to have to come around and root for the cheaters to win one for Dusty in the World Series.

Last edited by JCG
@JCG posted:

Everyone has injuries but it's true that the Dodgers have been hit particularly hard.

As a Giants fan, I have to admit to being a poor loser and I've watched only a few innings since they were eliminated, but it sure looks like Dave Roberts lost the war with the decisions he made in winning the battle with SF.

I think I'm going to have to come around and root for the cheaters to win one for Dusty in the World Series.

That’s where our household has landed as well. Pulling for Dusty at this point.

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