2021s

@adbono posted:

There are 3 categories of JUCOs - just as there are in 4 year NCAA schools: D1, D2 & D3. If fully funded (and many aren’t) D1 JuCos can offer 24 full scholarships which can (and often are) be split into half’s. D2 JuCos also offer scholarships but can only offer books, tuition & fees - roughly 50% of the annual cost. D3 JuCos don’t offer any athletic scholarships. Some, but not all, JuCos have on campus housing. As far as the situation with your son goes, the JuCo in question has either already given away all their scholarships or they are only interested enough to offer a walk on opportunity. Even when schools say they are out of money, most of them hold a scholarship or two back in case a hard throwing pitcher shows up out of nowhere at the last minute. My advice would be to keep looking. A walk-on offer can be accepted at the 11th hour. No need to jump at that.

The only caveat I would add is "depending on state laws".   For instance, while a D2 JuCo can offer scholarship money in terms of  tuition, fees and books according to NJCAA guidelines, in Virginia, by law JuCo's cannot offer athletic scholarships.

In 2012 my son had an "offer" from Patrick Henry Community College, but in reality it was just an invitation to try out.  Fortunately, he qualified for a Commonwealth Grant that covered 95% of his tuition and he made the team and became a starter his freshman year.

If my Grandson goes the JC route he would attend one of the 2 local JC's that have been recruiting him. He likes both coaches, and in that California JC's, by law, can't offer scholarships thats not an issue. Both of these JC's have said he would be a starter if he went to their school. A JC may be the best spot for him. He'll be sure to get playing time and continue to get Bigger, Stronger & Faster.

@FoxDad posted:

The only caveat I would add is "depending on state laws".   For instance, while a D2 JuCo can offer scholarship money in terms of  tuition, fees and books according to NJCAA guidelines, in Virginia, by law JuCo's cannot offer athletic scholarships.

In 2012 my son had an "offer" from Patrick Henry Community College, but in reality it was just an invitation to try out.  Fortunately, he qualified for a Commonwealth Grant that covered 95% of his tuition and he made the team and became a starter his freshman year.

Players from California participate in the CCCAA, which is a different governing body than

NJCAA.

Below is the 2020 Participation by Division

l

@Peach49 posted:

I believe the real issue with not getting an official offer yet is that he lost his Junior year to Covid-19 and was only able to go to 2 showcases, that he did very well in. So he's had near zero opportunities for schools to see him. The schools that have seen him are all D2's from California that have been impacted by Covid-19 and had last season cut short and this season cancelled. All these D2's said they will be making scholarship offers soon. I'm sure it will all work out. If not he has 2 JC's calling him a couple of times a week.

It’s almost the end of the school year. The issue isn’t why he hasn’t been seen by more colleges. The issue is how do you get it done ASAP before there aren’t any more opportunities. Yes, there are additional roster spots. But being anything after #20 on a roster doesn’t get the player on the field.

I’m at a 6A (highest classification) HS baseball game in the Dallas area right now. The visiting team has 14 2021s that are committed. Make of that what you will.

Are they winning?

@anotherparent posted:

Are they winning?

Yes

@adbono posted:

Yes

5th ranked team in the state

@RJM posted:

It’s almost the end of the school year. The issue isn’t why he hasn’t been seen by more colleges. The issue is how do you get it done ASAP before there aren’t any more opportunities. Yes, there are additional roster spots. But being anything after #20 on a roster doesn’t get the player on the field.

While I agree with 97% of this statement, I always feel comments like this miss one important factor. What a kid does with that roster spot is the most important variable to getting on the field, be it coming in as # 4, 20 or 35. Coaches want to win and if you perform better in the fall and spring coming in as #21 than the #5, you're playing. Absolutely, every recruiting class has the kids that are the apples of the coach's eye in his recruiting and no doubt they have got his attention, but they better keep it. That kid that came in late just might be hungry enough and good enough to steal the cookies right of their plate.

@FalseDawn posted:

While I agree with 97% of this statement, I always feel comments like this miss one important factor. What a kid does with that roster spot is the most important variable to getting on the field, be it coming in as # 4, 20 or 35. Coaches want to win and if you perform better in the fall and spring coming in as #21 than the #5, you're playing. Absolutely, every recruiting class has the kids that are the apples of the coach's eye in his recruiting and no doubt they have got his attention, but they better keep it. That kid that came in late just might be hungry enough and good enough to steal the cookies right of their plate.

In order for a walk on to take playing time away from a scholarship player he has to outperform him by a mile. It hardly ever happens. Add that to your 97%.

That's my missing 3%. Maybe I should have said 98. My point was simply to say that kids need to work they're ass off no matter what spot they have on the roster and take nothing for granted.

@FalseDawn posted:

While I agree with 97% of this statement, I always feel comments like this miss one important factor. What a kid does with that roster spot is the most important variable to getting on the field, be it coming in as # 4, 20 or 35. Coaches want to win and if you perform better in the fall and spring coming in as #21 than the #5, you're playing. Absolutely, every recruiting class has the kids that are the apples of the coach's eye in his recruiting and no doubt they have got his attention, but they better keep it. That kid that came in late just might be hungry enough and good enough to steal the cookies right of their plate.

From having been through the journey as a player and twice as a parent from what I’ve seen and been told it’s not uncommon for a player at the back of the roster not to get a reasonable chance.

A friend’s son played for a mid major. On Sunday of opening weekend the kid hit a game winning pinch hit double against a ranked program. He didn’t see the field again for ten games. By the end of freshman year he was 4-10 with four RBI’s. He was stuck behind a 1B/DH and a 1B/DH/P. Soph year he went 4-10 again. The kid offered to try LF. The coach turned him down.

The other two 1B hit .220 for two years. But they were getting baseball money. They played and played on. The third year they started showing something.

Opening Day Eve of his junior year the kid was told his services were no longer needed. He spent two years as insurance/3rd string 1B. He was the best high school defensive 1B I’ve ever seen. He wasn’t even used as late innings defense.

The kid crushed the ball in BP. Teammates were shocked when he wasn’t rostered. He wasn’t offered baseball money. He was insurance. By the third year he was no longer needed.

This was a kid who was three time all conference at large classification high school. He ran a 6.9 sixty. Measuring exit velocity wasn’t a big thing ten years ago. But, this kid hit the ball as hard as anyone I saw in high school.

@RJM posted:

From having been through the journey as a player and twice as a parent from what I’ve seen and been told it’s not uncommon for a player at the back of the roster not to get a reasonable chance.

A friend’s son played for a mid major. On Sunday of opening weekend the kid hit a game winning pinch hit double against a ranked program. He didn’t see the field again for ten games. By the end of freshman year he was 4-10 with four RBI’s. He was stuck behind a 1B/DH and a 1B/DH/P. Soph year he went 4-10 again. The kid offered to try LF. The coach turned him down.

The other two 1B hit .220 for two years. But they were getting baseball money. They played and played on. The third year they started showing something.

Opening Day Eve of his junior year the kid was told his services were no longer needed. He spent two years as insurance/3rd string 1B. He was the best high school defensive 1B I’ve ever seen. He wasn’t even used as late innings defense.

The kid crushed the ball in BP. Teammates were shocked when he wasn’t rostered. He wasn’t offered baseball money. He was insurance. By the third year he was no longer needed.

This was a kid who was three time all conference at large classification high school. He ran a 6.9 sixty. Measuring exit velocity wasn’t a big thing ten years ago. But, this kid hit the ball as hard as anyone I saw in high school.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

@FalseDawn posted:

That's my missing 3%. Maybe I should have said 98. My point was simply to say that kids need to work they're ass off no matter what spot they have on the roster and take nothing for granted.

You are making a valid point but it only applies at the D3 level when scholarships are not involved.

@RJM posted:

From having been through the journey as a player and twice as a parent from what I’ve seen and been told it’s not uncommon for a player at the back of the roster not to get a reasonable chance.

A friend’s son played for a mid major. On Sunday of opening weekend the kid hit a game winning pinch hit double against a ranked program. He didn’t see the field again for ten games. By the end of freshman year he was 4-10 with four RBI’s. He was stuck behind a 1B/DH and a 1B/DH/P. Soph year he went 4-10 again. The kid offered to try LF. The coach turned him down.

The other two 1B hit .220 for two years. But they were getting baseball money. They played and played on. The third year they started showing something.

Opening Day Eve of his junior year the kid was told his services were no longer needed. He spent two years as insurance/3rd string 1B. He was the best high school defensive 1B I’ve ever seen. He wasn’t even used as late innings defense.

The kid crushed the ball in BP. Teammates were shocked when he wasn’t rostered. He wasn’t offered baseball money. He was insurance. By the third year he was no longer needed.

This was a kid who was three time all conference at large classification high school. He ran a 6.9 sixty. Measuring exit velocity wasn’t a big thing ten years ago. But, this kid hit the ball as hard as anyone I saw in high school.

Have seen the same thing - scholarship players get chance after chance after chance. Non-scholarship players rarely get chances, even if they are clearly better.

Not sure why this is, maybe human nature not to admit you’re not correct 100% of the time in selecting players. Maybe pressure by the administration to show ROI on the scholarship dollars. Hard to know.

Always follow the money.

@DD 2024 posted:

Have seen the same thing - scholarship players get chance after chance after chance. Non-scholarship players rarely get chances, even if they are clearly better.

Not sure why this is, maybe human nature not to admit you’re not correct 100% of the time in selecting players. Maybe pressure by the administration to show ROI on the scholarship dollars. Hard to know.

Always follow the money.

100% on point

@DD 2024 posted:

Have seen the same thing - scholarship players get chance after chance after chance. Non-scholarship players rarely get chances, even if they are clearly better.

Not sure why this is, maybe human nature not to admit you’re not correct 100% of the time in selecting players. Maybe pressure by the administration to show ROI on the scholarship dollars. Hard to know.

Always follow the money.

Not only have I seen this over and over - I lived it. I was the rare D1 walk on that made the roster, played, and earned a scholarship. But it took me two years of working my ass off to do it and my reward was that I had a really good senior year. But I never got as many opportunities as my teammates and I thought I deserved - and it’s for the reasons stated above. I wasn’t recruited and I was never one of “their guys.” Neither were any of the other JuCo transfers who were all used to make “their guys” compete. That’s just how it was and how it still is most places - especially at ranked D1 programs. It also didn’t help my odds of getting on the mound that our #1 & #2 starters both had good big league careers. Another guy pitched a couple years for the Blue Jays and two others pitched in the minor leagues. Of the 8 pitchers that saw mound time 5 signed pro contracts. I was one of the 3 that didn’t.  Even tho my stats were better than theirs that year it didn’t matter. The money had been invested in them and not me. They were also better players, evidenced by the fact they they were all drafted and I wasn’t. That’s why stats aren’t the be all end all of measuring performance. There can be statistical anomalies - and for that matter metrics aren’t either. Posting “impressive” metrics doesn’t mean a player can perform in a game.

@adbono posted:

I’m at a 6A (highest classification) HS baseball game in the Dallas area right now. The visiting team has 14 2021s that are committed. Make of that what you will.

As a follow up to this post, here is the breakdown: 2 D1 (in TX), 1 D2 (OOS), 2 D3 (OOS), 1 NAIA (OOS), 8 JuCo (all TX & OK). All (that played) were solid players but none were spectacular. The 2 D1 commits will not stick at the programs they have chosen IMO. They aren’t near good enough. Interestingly  (and I’m being kind) the coach of this HS team called for at least 10 bunt attempts in the 5 innings I watched. To me, that is putting winning a HS baseball game ahead of playing the game and I was disgusted by it. Which is why I left before the game was over.

@adbono posted:

You are making a valid point but it only applies at the D3 level when scholarships are not involved.

That’s a D1 mid major I was posting about. It occurs at all levels. The kids receiving money receive more opportunity. At a D3 where baseball money isn’t involved the players the coach pushes through admissions receive more opportunity. The coach doesn’t want to lose his clout with admissions.

I saw and heard these stories when I played. My kids saw it where they played. Their travel and high school teammates saw it where they played.

If you heard from someone a coach said everyone gets an equal chance I have a swamp for sale. They say it. They don’t mean it.

@adbono posted:

Not only have I seen this over and over - I lived it. I was the rare D1 walk on that made the roster, played, and earned a scholarship. But it took me two years of working my ass off to do it and my reward was that I had a really good senior year. But I never got as many opportunities as my teammates and I thought I deserved - and it’s for the reasons stated above. I wasn’t recruited and I was never one of “their guys.” Neither were any of the other JuCo transfers who were all used to make “their guys” compete. That’s just how it was and how it still is most places - especially at ranked D1 programs. It also didn’t help my odds of getting on the mound that our #1 & #2 starters both had good big league careers. Another guy pitched a couple years for the Blue Jays and two others pitched in the minor leagues. Of the 8 pitchers that saw mound time 5 signed pro contracts. I was one of the 3 that didn’t.  Even tho my stats were better than theirs that year it didn’t matter. The money had been invested in them and not me. They were also better players, evidenced by the fact they they were all drafted and I wasn’t. That’s why stats aren’t the be all end all of measuring performance. There can be statistical anomalies - and for that matter metrics aren’t either. Posting “impressive” metrics doesn’t mean a player can perform in a game.

Compelling story.

I've often wondered how college and pro teams make decisions about who to draft, who to promote, who to pull up, who to keep down. The top players are easy, but it's gotta be splitting hairs in deciding about players beyond those.

And based on what you're saying, it seems like there's a marketing aspect to it - which is unfortunate, but not surprising.

I saw a YouTube video about Jeremy Nowak who was released from his Orioles A+ Minor  League team after having a great year and making the All-star team. He was told they had to make room for a Big Bonus player who played his same position. Hard to take but that what happens in baseball.

Several years ago a friend’s son was hitting .290 with 20 homers in AAA while playing 2b, ss and 3b. When an injury occurred on the MLB team a .240 hitter lacking power who only played 2B was called up. As the kid said, “There were a million ($) reasons why the other guy was called up. They called up a first round pick. The friend’s son was a 24th rounder.

"Sponsors" "who are they"?

Business school grads have someone paving their future with the Employer.

High drafted players have "agents". Pro scouts have a contact in the front office to influence the GM. Minor league Managers file game reports to the Front office.

College coaches are influenced by the Alumni, HS coaches, showcase organizers and recently "travel ball" coaches.

Talented players will "let their bat, glove and arm" do the talking. They have self confidence. They are constantly aware of their environment and become students of the game of baseball and life. They develop the 6th Tool.

Bob

@DD 2024 posted:

Have seen the same thing - scholarship players get chance after chance after chance. Non-scholarship players rarely get chances, even if they are clearly better.

Not sure why this is, maybe human nature not to admit you’re not correct 100% of the time in selecting players. Maybe pressure by the administration to show ROI on the scholarship dollars. Hard to know.

Always follow the money.

It's no different in the pros. Yankees gave Cito Culver $1 million. He couldn't hit and was given like 8 years in the minors to prove he couldn't hit. Any NDFA with his numbers would have been cut after a year. It's all about saving face. When they give you money, you will get extended opportunities to hopefully justify the money.

There also seems to be a difference between Athletic money and academic money. Players with Athletic money always seem to be given more chances then academic money players. When a Coach makes a financial investment in a player they are going to give that player every opportunity to succeed. Not so much for academic money players.

@Peach49 posted:

There also seems to be a difference between Athletic money and academic money. Players with Athletic money always seem to be given more chances then academic money players. When a Coach makes a financial investment in a player they are going to give that player every opportunity to succeed. Not so much for academic money players.

Receiving athletic money is a way for a player to know if he is going where he’s loved or where they’re interested. At D3’s love is when the coach is asking the player to apply early admission and endorsing the player through admissions.

So, it's April 21st 2021. If you are an uncommitted 2021 as of this date, is it too late and you are not playing college baseball? Or, can it still happen in May?

I just looked up the NCAA recruiting rules and while the rules specify a start date for recruiting they do not list a stop date, which I assume is when the coming semester starts. My Grandson just accepted a baseball scholarship and officially committed earlier this month. The process seemed like it was going to take forever then in just a matter of a week he had 4 schools telling him they really wanted him. He signed with a Top D2 school that is close to home who’s coaching staff he really likes.

Congrats!

There is no stop or end date until school starts back up in the Fall. We were at a camp at UNC-Chapel Hill in late July and they had people on visits that weekend for that year's class which started in 2 weeks.... Always recruiting.....

@RJM posted:

Receiving athletic money is a way for a player to know if he is going where he’s loved or where they’re interested. At D3’s love is when the coach is asking the player to apply early admission and endorsing the player through admissions.

One of the simplest yet most helpful insights for a first-time parent like me... thank you, @RJM

My Grandson was told his athletic scholarship was among the highest they have given to any position player, and with no returning players at his position the coach said he will be given every opportunity to earn a starting position.

Somebody search up Micky Modiak...cliff notes

- he was the first pick of the draft

- he has zero great seasons in the minors

- he was terrible pick by a terrible GM (Klintak) who should be released by every team in organized baseball

- he is the Phillies starting centerfielder at this time but wont be for long, the kid is now a man and he sucks.

I hope he didn't waste his bonus money.

Moniak is still very young at just 22 years old. I wouldn’t give up on him off just yet. He probably would have been better served playing a full season in AAA before being thrust into the majors.

Walk-ons vary by school.  The #1 on my kid's team was a walk on and he is headed to an SEC team next year.  One of our top bullpen arms is a walk on and pretty sure our best hitter who is also headed to an SEC team was a walk on initially.  The coaches don't seem to give a damn about anything except who will help the team win.

Ask any parent who has had a kid play at Arkansas about walk-ons vs scholarship players.  If you are on a big piece you better contribute big time.   Arkansas and Oregon State have both used recruited walk ons extensively.     

It goes without saying that even with an athletic scholarship you still have to perform. The difference is that with a scholarship you will be given more of an opportunity to prove yourself at the college level. As a walk on, you will be given far fewer changes, if you don’t show real potential in the first few days you won’t be there long enough to get more changes.

@Peach49 posted:

Moniak is still very young at just 22 years old. I wouldn’t give up on him off just yet. He probably would have been better served playing a full season in AAA before being thrust into the majors.

very young are juan soto and Acuna jr...the Mick just blows. He has less value then an L screen with holes in it.

@d-mac posted:

Walk-ons vary by school.  The #1 on my kid's team was a walk on and he is headed to an SEC team next year.  One of our top bullpen arms is a walk on and pretty sure our best hitter who is also headed to an SEC team was a walk on initially.  The coaches don't seem to give a damn about anything except who will help the team win.

Ask any parent who has had a kid play at Arkansas about walk-ons vs scholarship players.  If you are on a big piece you better contribute big time.   Arkansas and Oregon State have both used recruited walk ons extensively.     

Unfortunately I just haven't found that to be true. Both within our program and outside of our program. Unless the player in question is one of "his guys" it's going to take an all conference type year to get on the field regularly

I'm usually a very tough critic and I don't tend to buy into excuses very easily. But when I ask current players and my own about ______ and they tell me he's better than starters I have to believe there's something else going on that isn't talent related.

Even at the D3 level, scholarships are involved.  Not every kid gets a ton of academic money.   Not every kid gets hand walked through early decision.  

Actions speak louder than words.  Money is an action that often speaks loudest, telling the tale of where priorities are...

@Francis7 posted:

So, it's April 21st 2021. If you are an uncommitted 2021 as of this date, is it too late and you are not playing college baseball? Or, can it still happen in May?

Playing college Baseball?  Or being on a college Baseball team?

There are at least a 100 JUCO’s, D3’s and NAIA’s that would be happy to fill up one more dorm room for full tuition money up through July.

and yes, there are exceptions that are legit college players who are still unsigned.  Especially the top pitchers who are coming off injury or sitting at that 89-90 mph threshold trying to break through to D1 level and still considering the JUCO route.