44 million dollars!!!

Coach May -

IMO - Exactamundo

What a waste.

The lawyers are happy though. Ka ching.
And the media will eat this up for the next 6 months.

Alot more than $44 M will be wasted when all is said and done.

And meanwhile - all of these lying cheating players have banked their millions - and are laughing - because they got away with it and they got their money.

Sick humans IMO.

I found that the revelation that hundreds of thousands of high school aged players are taking steriods, that to me was frightening to hear.

But then, after reading my younger sons' evaluation from a collegiate camp he recently attended:
Coach's Comments:
"____ Showed very well at the showcase. As is the case for most player's ____'s age, strength is an issue"

He is 6'3" 170lbs. is a 16 year old Jr. Of the 1-5 rating system he received a 4 with many positives.
My point is, do we really have to wonder why kids are taking steroids when the coaches are constantly telling them they need to gain weight and get stronger. It seems to me it would be prudent for the coaches to stop trying to create unnatural athletes, and just let nature proceed naturally, they will get bigger and stronger with time. I just don't get why we as a society are constantly trying to fast forward our kids in a number of ways. JMHO

a deal is rumored to be in the works for Mitchell's committee to investigate gas & diesel prices as their next project

it would take yrs .. price tag unknown, but very high


I hope it has more than 500 pages

they'll take statements from mail-room guys

dig up some cancelled checks

execs will have "no comment"



the conclusion ... already known by anyone with a pulse - - "we're getting screwed"

I'm sorry but I don't find the statement that "hundred of thousands of high school age kids are taking steroids"...worthy of humor.

I agree wholeheartedly with iheartbb - coaches need to stop pressing kids to be men before their time.

I began a discussion on this in the Texas Forum - all are welcome to drop in and discuss. Tell 'em Natural invited you!

Where did you come up with this $44M figure? I have seen in many publications that the investigation cost approximately $20M (which by the way is still a ton of money). Today Selig said the $ figures being thrown around are greatly exaggerated.

While certainly not a complete investigation, what would you expect since the Players Association would not cooperate?

It all boils down to testing and penalties. Put the Olympic testing procedures in place and test more often without any notifications. Finally, ban players for life if caught. That would clean up the game. However, the Players Association will never agree to anything that far reaching.

This one report will generate hundreds of millions of dollars of business for the legal and media professions during the next 6 months - conservatively.

It will be a temporary "mini-industry" well into 2008 - and many vermin will dine on the rotting carcasses.

.
One thing that stands out for me...

The inteview with Victor Conte...simply laughing at how far behind, and how unrealistic to what they are facing...the adminstrators, testers, custodians, and sentinels are. Said that the you might just get started if you tested 10 times a year rather than 2.

44
.

Does Canseco get anything out of this?

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:

My point is, do we really have to wonder why kids are taking steroids when the coaches are constantly telling them they need to gain weight and get stronger. It seems to me it would be prudent for the coaches to stop trying to create unnatural athletes, and just let nature proceed naturally, they will get bigger and stronger with time. I just don't get why we as a society are constantly trying to fast forward our kids in a number of ways. JMHO

I don't think that telling a kid who obviously needs to spend some time in the weight room (and I'm not singling out any specific kid), that he needs to get busy is a natural transition to steroids. Lets take some responsibility for our own children.

In a school of 2200 kids with baseball at 5 levels, there were less than 6 kids consistently in the weight room working. Judging from what I see on the field, that's more the norm than not. I say that to illustrate that a coach telling a kid to hit the weights is trying to help the kid. Jobs are won and lost on the athletic fields by the kids that work harder and gain more than the others. If my kid rates a 4 and wants to be a 5, and asks the coach what would help him the most, I wouldn't want him saying, "nothing kid, it'll come naturally or it won't". Blaming coaches that want to get the most out of their players is like blaming McDonalds for making you fat.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
That is the estimate of the amount of money spent on the Mitchell investigation. They spent 44 million dollars to say what any one of us could have said. Steroids are bad. MLB knew they had a problem but didnt do enough. Several players used them. Tougher testing needs to be in place. Lets move forward. WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is absolutely awesome. Money well spent. 44 Million dollars and all they can come up with are some personal trainers , a few retired players , saying they heard this they saw that etc etc. Politics at it finest. IMO they should have left all the names out of it unless they were going to have some kind of legal process that at least would give these accused due process. To just throw names out there based on someones word? Now what recourse does the accused have? Oh the court of public opinion. Makes me wonder how is Bonds any worse than any of these other guys that are accused? And then I thought about how many kids will not have a present for Christmas? Will not have a warm house or enough food to eat? I could have just said what they said and we could have taken that 44 million dollars and put it to some real use.

Coach May...do you really believe that MLB thought they had a problem? I believe they thought it would be a problem if it came to public light. People want to see a pitcher throw the ball 100 MPH, a hitter hit the ball 475 feet and some one steal 75 bases. Owners know which players put fans in the seats.

I enjoy reading your posts and feel you are very much a traditionalist like me with respect to baseball. We appreciate the intricacies of the game and like a 5-4 decision. Owners are about profit margins and getting folks in the seats is all that matters.

CPZL-
I think maybe you missed a signifigant sentence
"As is the case for most players...age, strength is an issue"

If it is the case for most players of that age group, then perhaps it is the norm.

In this particular case that I was refering to of our own experience this athlete is in the weight room, attends core classes and consumes a healthy diet. Some guys are just built differently than others, genetically, I believe. This player that I am refering to is strong and lean for HIS AGE. He will begin to gain, when he stops growing.
CPZL, are you refering to 2200 athletes or 2200 student population? Of course the suggestion of hitting the weight room for kids that are not already into a daily workout program is a fine suggestion, one that perhaps some kids hoping to become athletes had not thought of as a priority to achieve their goals of becoming a student athlete.
However, the constant push to get bigger and stronger FASTER, to me is totally a que to do something more - more than lift weights, more than work on your core, all the while growing everyday-it's pretty hard to keep up the calorie count just to maintain your weight. The particular athlete I was refering to grew seven inches last year, how do you suppose he is to do more than he already is?

CPZL-
Also, I did not say that I/we/he wanted this particular athlete to become a '5' before he was ready to be one. He is exactly where he should be and working his way to the next level "working" not short cutting....

Most kids have a coach or two they really look up to. If one of them comes to them and says they need to get bigger I would hope they would explain to them how to do it the right way.
According to my son one of his coaches (not one of the ones he looks up to). Told him to get stronger and left it at that. He listened, and went to someone he trusted for advice on exercising. How many kids might have taken that comment and not knowing where to turn went to the wrong person. If it is only one it is too many.
There is so much pressure to get bigger, faster, stronger. While we can help nature along with proper diet and exercise, just how much is too much? Especially when they see their idols get caught cheating or at the very least under suspicion.

quote:

by cplz: In a school of 2200 kids with baseball at 5 levels, there were less than 6 kids consistently in the weight room working. Judging from what I see on the field, that's more the norm than not. I say that to illustrate that a coach telling a kid to hit the weights is trying to help the kid.

5 levels
ya want 12-1/2 yr old 7th graders "pumping iron"??

the mediocre school system with the "poor work ethic" in your expample is actually a prime candidate to have athletes looking for short cuts

quote:

by bb1: Most kids have a coach or two they really look up to. If one of them comes to them and says they need to get bigger I would hope they would explain to them how to do it the right way

you've missed the train or boat ... or both

the pressure to short cut IS NOT on the kids just trying to get better ...

and - it DOES NOT come from the hs coach/math teacher ...



the pressure is on the VERY BEST hs prospects and coming from pro scouts and college coaches holding a "carrot" (their dream of college or pro ball) in front of them ...

get bigger & stronger than fellow "top prospects" and you will reap rewards

again ... that heard by a hs jr or sr who has been conditioning hard for 1 or more sports during his hs yrs - - what is the message??

Baseball has created this message of what it takes to get to the highest level of baseball.

What wouldn't a high school player do (take) for the sake of his dream?

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

5 levels
ya want 12-1/2 yr old 7th graders "pumping iron"??

the mediocre school system with the "poor work ethic" in your expample is actually a prime candidate to have athletes looking for short cuts

7th graders are not HS.
My 9th grader began lifting on day 1 of his freshman year, which is 9th grade.

5 levels as there are complete freshman A and Freshman B squads.

To say that my example would be a prime candidate for drug use is nothing more than conjecture. I could counter with the more comptetitive HS would be the one more susceptible because there is so little distinguishing difference that players are looking more for the edge. The problem is that I can't back it up, therefore it's just an opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb>:

However, the constant push to get bigger and stronger FASTER, to me is totally a que to do something more - more than lift weights, more than work on your core, all the while growing everyday-it's pretty hard to keep up the calorie count just to maintain your weight.

That is like saying "constant peer pressure to be cool is steering kids towards doing drugs". It completely absolves the parents of the responsibility of teaching their kids right and wrong and overseeing their activities.

Our HS won the state football championship this year. There is savage competition for spots. Kids work their butts off to become bigger, stronger, faster, working towards a personal and collective goal. Isn't that is about the healthiest aspect of sport, learning about effort, teamwork, pulling together to make each other better, living up to your personal responsibilities and making your teammate accountable to his?

Coaches only have the influence that we parents allow them to have. We ultimately are responsible for our kids, not the coaches, not the teachers, not the police, not the government. If my kid turns to PED's, I need to find a mirror to find the beginning of the problem.

quote:

by cplz: 5 levels as there are complete freshman A and Freshman B squads

1) fresh A
2) fresh B
3) j-varsity
4) varsity
5) ???

quote:

by cplz: To say that my example would be a prime candidate for drug use is nothing more than conjecture. I could counter with the more comptetitive HS would be the one more susceptible because there is so little distinguishing difference that players are looking more for the edge.

yes, but very good conjecture

regarding "so little distinguishing difference" ...
the prospect needn't worry about standing out over his hs team-mates - -
he needs to stand out over other top prospects nationwide

Parents are responsible for teaching their kids right from wrong,set standards and set the example.
Kids know what they should do,but because of their immaturity and the need to "please" ( friends, parents coaches)they will make mistakes.
Ultimately they are responsible for their actions

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
a deal is rumored to be in the works for Mitchell's committee to investigate gas & diesel prices as their next project

it would take yrs .. price tag unknown, but very high


I hope it has more than 500 pages

they'll take statements from mail-room guys

dig up some cancelled checks

execs will have "no comment"



the conclusion ... already known by anyone with a pulse - - "we're getting screwed"

I actually just moved some cash into an energy growth fund. It happens to be doing very well and should continue, shocking as that seems.

I'm hopeful Major League Baseball will launch a study to find out if dirt is dirty, water is wet, and the sky is high. Please get back to us in 20 months.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by cplz: 5 levels as there are complete freshman A and Freshman B squads

1) fresh A
2) fresh B
3) j-varsity
4) varsity
5) ???

We have a soph level also

quote:

Originally posted by NJBB>:


Ultimately they (the kids) are responsible for their actions

True, I misspoke, parents would be #2 on the list.

When a coach writes in an evaluation that a player needs to get stronger it does not mean steriods- What it means that the player as he matures will improve skill wise as he gets more physically mature. Many kids at 15/16 years of age are nowhere near physical maturity---all part of a coaches projection on a player.

As for Canseco he is a "slug"----did you see his interviews last night and this morning---cannot tell anything--read it in my book--LOL---he is scum--funny he only shows up at certain time---and then he gets offended that he could attend the Mitchell Press Conference which was for media only--

I find it tough to believe two "informers" who are cutting deals to save their hide after their illegal actions--


I am still waiting for "proof" before you convict and name names--even this report is more speculation than fact

quote:

I find it tough to believe two "informers" who are cutting deals to save their hide after their illegal actions--

That attitude would discredit every Mafia inside informer that ever turned state's witness.

Maintaining good conditioning to stay healthy in HS is the key. If you have talent, you can be the thin man on the team, you do not have to be the hulkster to play. To some HS coaches it doesn't matter, and lots have the philosophy, the kid is only 16,17,18 his talent will get him to the next level. A good college coach will see that and let the trainers take care of that when he gets to school.

As far as scouting for MLB, if you are 17,18 and your body looks like 22,23 you may be doing yourself a great disservice.

GOOD coaches should NEVER tell anyone they have to get bigger and stronger to make the team, they should know nature needs to take it's course. Their job, IMO, is to make sure that the player maintains a conditioning program to keep him healthy. Parents should never tell their players the same either. This puts undue pressure upon the player to think of other ways to achieve that quickly.

[/QUOTE]you've missed the train or boat ... or both
the pressure to short cut IS NOT on the kids just trying to get better ...
and - it DOES NOT come from the hs coach/math teacher ... ]

The pressure does come from the coaches. If you want to play. Sure they are looking at playing in college and the pros but it starts here. I would never blame a coach for this pressure because in my opinion they are just telling them the truth. My concern is that a kid who doesn't have anywhere to turn might turn to the wrong person. Ultimately they are responsible for their own actions but a coach can and does have a huge influence in many of our young mans lives.
Funny you should mention the math teacher. Yesterday my son spent almost 2hrs after school at school working on challenge math problems. Then another 3hrs after dinner just on this one subject. Is it time well spent in an honors class that he'll probably wind up with a "B" and colleges many times discount weighted grades.
You betcha, this is the first time he might get less than an "A" and to me it is the best grade he will ever get because he worked at it.

quote:

by TR: When a coach writes in an evaluation that a player needs to get stronger it does not mean steriods - What it means that the player as he matures will improve skill wise as he gets more physically mature.

agree

but what does it mean to an 18 yr old "top prospect" who is "buffed" when a pro scout tells him to get yet "bigger & stronger"

it means if ya look like a freak - you'll be rewarded

quote:

by cplz: Is it time well spent in an honors class that he'll probably wind up with a "B" and colleges many times discount weighted grades

don't get me started - hs honors/ap classes cost me plenty in college academic aid

quote:

Originally posted by baseballregie:
Does Canseco get anything out of this?

ESPN reported that he was denied entry into Mitchell's press conference.

On the Texas message board is the following:
George Mitchell made the following statement today...

"This is one of the most important issues that I learned through this investigation, and I hope the American people will now become concerned about. There are right now, hundreds of thousands of American youth of high school age who are using steroids. And I think it's a national problem -- a very serious one -- our children. And when a teenager uses steroids, they place themselves at a much greater risk than an adult, because their bodies are already going through serious hormonal changes, physical risks, psychological risks and others."

At this point I do not care one bit about what Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Jose Canseco, Migual Tejeda or any of the others has done to themselves or the professional game... except to say they should be banned for life, their pensions stripped, and records deleted.

BUT... more importantly is what Mitchell said above. We in the High School baseball community have all seen it happening: the kid who grows enormously (and abnormally) from one season to the next... the kid with an oversized head and pimply face... the 17-18 year old that looks like he should be 26-30.

So we must ask ourselves what can be done to save kids from wanting it so badly that they get caught up in this and cheat to succeed?

Here is one idea: Hold coaches accountable. We must find a system that removes the incentive for a coach to REWARD cheating. When a coach plays the "incredible hulk" in front of a player who does it the right way, everyone loses even if the team wins.

I don't have a perfect system to propose. I just know that Mitchell is right. It is much too prevalent in our schools and so it makes sense that it is even more common at the college level. I fear what my own son will encounter when he reaches college next year.

Thoughts?

Posted December 14, 2007 10:45 AM Hide Post
I concur that a major source of this problem is that currently, the majority of coaches are motivated to actively avoid this subject rather than actively speak out and act out against using steroids. Even just speaking about it would help in many cases. Another problem is the ease of getting the drugs on the internet. Another is our legal system, as has been correctly pointed out. As a JUCO coach about five years ago, I found out about a problem, went to the apartments of our players (which scared them in itself), AND found needles in the trash. All our players were interviewed, many players were suspended and a few were cut. The backlash basically led to me being told by our administrators to NEVER do ANYTHING like that again. They were scared to death of a lawsuit. I got in trouble, but don't regret it, because the action worked.

Enjoy your job. Know your job. Do your job!

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

GOOD coaches should NEVER tell anyone they have to get bigger and stronger to make the team, they should know nature needs to take it's course. Their job, IMO, is to make sure that the player maintains a conditioning program to keep him healthy. Parents should never tell their players the same either. This puts undue pressure upon the player to think of other ways to achieve that quickly.

I don't think you could be more wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by igball:

We in the High School baseball community have all seen it happening: the kid who grows enormously (and abnormally) from one season to the next... the kid with an oversized head and pimply face... the 17-18 year old that looks like he should be 26-30.
.

Sorry, I haven't seen it, so the assumption you make, based on it being so obvious, which assumes a rampant problem, may not exist to that extent at all.

I don't agree with Mitchell about the HS aged kids, he offers that up without evidence or statistics. I have coached a good many years and can count on one hand the number of kids that I had any inkling of doubt about using PED's.

I find this whole discussion, as it relates to HS athletes to be boomerang emotions, unfounded, and quite over the top and inflammatory. It does not accurately represent the landscape of todays HS athlete.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballregie:
Does Canseco get anything out of this?

I would presume he gets some measure of satisfaction - as he told the truth a few years ago in front of the Congressional panel.

Canseco has a new book due out shortly-saw him this morning on FOX NEWS---won't name names but you can read it in his book upcoming--

TPM

I won't take your post personally even if you meant it as such but you are so far off base it is laughable--15/16 year olds want to know what they need to do to get better--it is simple if they have tools--they need to get in shape--eat right--have a work out regimen--in short get stronger physically

TR: find it tough to believe two "informers" who are cutting deals to save their hide after their illegal actions--


I am still waiting for "proof" before you convict and name names--even this report is more speculation than fact

Amazing comments. With this logic, the government would never prosecute organize crime and their mob killers. It's commonly understood that in a dirty business you have to get info from whom you can. Very few nuns and choir boys in the steroid distribution business. The focus in my mind should be less on protecting sombody's baseball gods and more on protecting our kids from this epidemic.

TPM: GOOD coaches should NEVER tell anyone they have to get bigger and stronger to make the team, they should know nature needs to take it's course. Their job, IMO, is to make sure that the player maintains a conditioning program to keep him healthy

I agree, but I also lie awake each year hoping to hear the sound of santa's reindeer on my roof.

quote:

Canseco has a new book due out shortly-saw him this morning on FOX NEWS---won't name names but you can read it in his book upcoming--

Why would anyone need anymore names? It's painfully obvious to thoughtful folks that Ken Cammineti's estimate that half the players of his era were juicing, on greenies, HGH, testosterone, cuban coffee, all of the above or whatever, was not far off.

What's important now is how the situation is corrected, and how soon that happens.

quote:

I am still waiting for "proof" before you convict and name names--even this report is more speculation than fact

were there not cancelled checks and credit card receipts?

Here is an extract from a Dodger scouting report:

"Got off the steroids. ... Took away a lot of hard line drives," the report says, quoting from the Dodgers briefing. "... If you do trade him, will get back on the stuff and try to show you he can have a good year, that's his makeup. Comes to play. Last year of contract, playing for 2005."

I don't think any of those folks are convicted felons trying to "buy" leniency.
I don't think Stan Conte, the former head trainer with the Giants, with whom Bonds refused to train, would be considered an unreliable "informant" when he notified upper management that Bond's "trainer" was suspected of distributing/selling banned/illegal substances...in the clubhouse.
I don't think the Giants clubhouse manager of over 25 years is an unreliable informant when he describes removing syringes from player's lockers.

Education on the stark realities of the need for recognition, detection, and prevention by those who are entrusted the responsibility of coaching and guiding our youth is perhaps even more paramount than in MLB it would seem.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
When a coach writes in an evaluation that a player needs to get stronger it does not mean steriods- What it means that the player as he matures will improve skill wise as he gets more physically mature. Many kids at 15/16 years of age are nowhere near physical maturity---all part of a coaches projection on a player.

As for Canseco he is a "slug"----did you see his interviews last night and this morning---cannot tell anything--read it in my book--LOL---he is scum--funny he only shows up at certain time---and then he gets offended that he could attend the Mitchell Press Conference which was for media only--

I find it tough to believe two "informers" who are cutting deals to save their hide after their illegal actions--


I am still waiting for "proof" before you convict and name names--even this report is more speculation than fact

You're a hard one to figure out.
Major supporter of Bonds yet you appear to hate Canseco, the guy who brought this whole thing to light (actually I never liked the guy because of his obvious steroid use until he did what he did). Tell me truthfully, do you support the use of PEDs?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

I won't take your post personally even if you meant it as such but you are so far off base it is laughable--15/16 year olds want to know what they need to do to get better--it is simple if they have tools--they need to get in shape--eat right--have a work out regimen--in short get stronger physically

Go back and read my post. That's what I said.
16,17 year olds need to condition properly and learn about good nutrition not look like the hulkster to play. On sons HS we had a pitcher who was small and 145 pounds soaking wet, as a pitcher he got the job done. He was a varsity pitcher as a freshman. Now two years into college (six years later), he's well over 6 foot, filling into his frame and throws 90's. One of my son's former teammates, in college all of like 160 pounds and over 6 feet, pitching leader on the cape this summer and one of the top college prospects in the country. Why, because he has top talent as a pitcher, he knows how to pitch (and hit). That's what gets you to where you want to be.

Hitting lessons, pitching lessons, conditioning, good nutrition is importand to improve upon ones talent and for some it's a slow process.

Obviously if our kids are turning to the wrong things to make them get bigger and stronger, it's the way people are telling them to get bigger and stronger quicker.

What I find disturbing are those coaches who work with young players, and parents who constantly deny those who have cheated to get somewhere.... it's all hearsay, he's innocent until proven guilty, the guy that squealed is and idiot blah, blah. Now that's laughable.

For the 44 million they got a good idea on how to prevent Steroids from becoming problems.

Put up Just say no posters in the locker rooms and training rooms.

That is really in the report....

I had always assumed Steroids were a problem, but I was amazed that some of players mentioned in the report, Actually wrote personal checks to pay for the stuff!!!

quote:

Originally posted by baseballregie:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
When a coach writes in an evaluation that a player needs to get stronger it does not mean steriods- What it means that the player as he matures will improve skill wise as he gets more physically mature. Many kids at 15/16 years of age are nowhere near physical maturity---all part of a coaches projection on a player.

As for Canseco he is a "slug"----did you see his interviews last night and this morning---cannot tell anything--read it in my book--LOL---he is scum--funny he only shows up at certain time---and then he gets offended that he could attend the Mitchell Press Conference which was for media only--

I find it tough to believe two "informers" who are cutting deals to save their hide after their illegal actions--


I am still waiting for "proof" before you convict and name names--even this report is more speculation than fact

You're a hard one to figure out.
Major supporter of Bonds yet you appear to hate Canseco, the guy who brought this whole thing to light (actually I never liked the guy because of his obvious steroid use until he did what he did). Tell me truthfully, do you support the use of PEDs?

Yeah I am wondering the same thing? I don't get it.

I've come to think that TRHit is really Donald Fehr in disguise. He certainly speaks his language.