We would get to thank you, but no thank you the moment you attempted to dictate terms. I don't bother with PITA parents. The teams reputation for handling players stood for itself. We didn't need a parents telling us how to do it. I'd have trouble with your "I'm smarter than you because I played college ball" attitude. The coaching staff was four former college players of which two played pro ball. Three were pitchers. One was a catcher.quote:However if I had a child that pitches with the knowledge I have. I would have no problem prior to joining any team telling the coaches my son has certain pitching limits that can not be exceeded.
If that coach agreed to my terms and we all had an understanding then we would join that team. If that coach took the stance that he could pitch MY CHILD as much as he wanted then I would personally say thank you but no thank you.
quote:Now from a coaching standpoint, I'm not going to allow a parent to tell me when their son can and cannot pitch. That is a decision that would be made by me, one of the other coaches, and/or the player. If the player's arm is hurting, he's coming out. If he feeling good, looking good, and is effective then he will stay in the game.
No I didnt miss it but I have wrote a book today on this thread lol.
Most kids dont want to let their team down so its hard as a coach to sometimes see if a kid is really hurting. You said if a player is looking good, feeling good and is effective he wont come out of the game.
Now I will ask. Who knows the child better, you as a coach or me as a parent. I think we both know the answer to that question.
Parents see things in their child that most dont when they are feeling bad. A good example. My son back in a tournament in Feb was sick, the coaches never knew until I told them he was feeling bad.
They took him out of the game when he didnt want to come out and he got upset about it. After the game even after puking his guts up he told me he didnt want to come out because he wanted to help his team.
Now Im the first one to say you should give everything you got to a team but there are limits at this age.
My point is kids will lie about how they feel just to keep from letting their team down or they feel without them pitching or hitting the teams chances of winning decrease. Its a lot of pressure kids are put under now a days with the win at all cost attitudes they see from some parents and coaches.
So IMO parents not coaches when it comes to a childs health or future are best suited to make those calls in youth baseball.
Your ten year old son is playing showcase ball? Wow! At ten I only said my kids were good for their age.quote:My son who is an elite player
quote:Originally posted by OCB:quote:Now from a coaching standpoint, I'm not going to allow a parent to tell me when their son can and cannot pitch. That is a decision that would be made by me, one of the other coaches, and/or the player. If the player's arm is hurting, he's coming out. If he feeling good, looking good, and is effective then he will stay in the game.
No I didnt miss it but I have wrote a book today on this thread lol.
Most kids dont want to let their team down so its hard as a coach to sometimes see if a kid is really hurting. You said if a player is looking good, feeling good and is effective he wont come out of the game.
Now I will ask. Who knows the child better, you as a coach or me as a parent. I think we both know the answer to that question.
Parents see things in their child that most dont when they are feeling bad. A good example. My son back in a tournament in Feb was sick, the coaches never knew until I told them he was feeling bad.
They took him out of the game when he didnt want to come out and he got upset about it. After the game even after puking his guts up he told me he didnt want to come out because he wanted to help his team.
Now Im the first one to say you should give everything you got to a team but there are limits at this age.
My point is kids will lie about how they feel just to keep from letting their team down or they feel without them pitching or hitting the teams chances of winning decrease. Its a lot of pressure kids are put under now a days with the win at all cost attitudes they see from some parents and coaches.
So IMO parents not coaches when it comes to a childs health or future are best suited to make those calls in youth baseball.
Been there,my son played a basketball game when we thought after the game that he had a broken finger,the coaches never new he was hurt,all they knew was that he couldn't shoot that day.Then I had the other coaches saying he had a bad game,I said no,his finger was jammed right before the game and it wasn't untill a few days later did we get to thinking he might have broken it.
I feel parents should have a say with preteen players when it comes to health.Not when it comes to positions on the field or playing time.We may not like it but we should just sit back and let the coaches make the call,regardless how bad we think their decissions are.
OCB,you have a pm.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:We would get to thank you, but no thank you the moment you attempted to dictate terms. I don't bother with PITA parents. The teams reputation for handling players stood for itself. We didn't need a parents telling us how to do it. I'd have trouble with your "I'm smarter than you because I played college ball" attitude. The coaching staff was four former college players of which two played pro ball. Three were pitchers. One was a catcher.quote:However if I had a child that pitches with the knowledge I have. I would have no problem prior to joining any team telling the coaches my son has certain pitching limits that can not be exceeded.
If that coach agreed to my terms and we all had an understanding then we would join that team. If that coach took the stance that he could pitch MY CHILD as much as he wanted then I would personally say thank you but no thank you.
Well I dont know about what the baseball or parents are like up in your area, but down here you would struggle to put together an elite team with what you refer to as PITA parents. What you call PITA I call intelligence.
In the 10u, 11u and 12u age brackets we have top 5 nationally ranked teams in all those age brackets with stud pitchers who all have parents that put pitch limits on their kids that the coaches abide by.
If anyone of these coaches said no to these parents. Those pitchers would all be on opposing teams helping to take them to the tops of the national rankings and its already happened to one 10u and 12u team.
OCB ...
I think you better start your own team or find a coach you can walk on. A knowledgeable coach isn't going to put up with your stuff. It's obvious you have an attitude most coaches don't know what they're doing. That may be the case on daddyball teams where daddy is trying to get that trophy his kid didn't get in all-stars. The good organizations don't have that problem. I never coached like I needed another trophy. I coached to teach kids how to play the game better.
I think you better start your own team or find a coach you can walk on. A knowledgeable coach isn't going to put up with your stuff. It's obvious you have an attitude most coaches don't know what they're doing. That may be the case on daddyball teams where daddy is trying to get that trophy his kid didn't get in all-stars. The good organizations don't have that problem. I never coached like I needed another trophy. I coached to teach kids how to play the game better.
1) I call a PITA a parent who attempts to interfere with the operation of the team.quote:Well I dont know about what the baseball or parents are like up in your area, but down here you would struggle to put together an elite team with what you refer to as PITA parents. What you call PITA I call intelligence.
In the 10u, 11u and 12u age brackets we have top 5 nationally ranked teams in all those age brackets with stud pitchers who all have parents that put pitch limits on their kids that the coaches abide by.
If anyone of these coaches said no to these parents. Those pitchers would all be on opposing teams helping to take them to the tops of the national rankings and its already happened to one 10u and 12u team.
2) Who cares who's nationally ranked before high school?
3) You have coaches who are willing to sell their souls to win if they're letting the parents dictate terms.
"Ask ANY HS, College, Ex MLB pitcher or MLB pitching coach when a kid should start to throw curve balls. Non of these individuals will say at ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or even 16."
Based on what? They're misinformed. Dr Andrew's organization did the research. They could not find any connection between a properly thrown curve and arm injury in youth pitchers.
By the way. Welcome to the board. It's been interesting.
Based on what? They're misinformed. Dr Andrew's organization did the research. They could not find any connection between a properly thrown curve and arm injury in youth pitchers.
By the way. Welcome to the board. It's been interesting.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
"Ask ANY HS, College, Ex MLB pitcher or MLB pitching coach when a kid should start to throw curve balls. Non of these individuals will say at ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or even 16."
Based on what? They're misinformed. Dr Andrew's organization did the research. They could not find any connection between a properly thrown curve and arm injury in youth pitchers.
By the way. Welcome to the board. It's been interesting.
This is a highly debated subject and I will give my experience.My son's coach(9-10 years old) was dead set against any kind of curve(former minor leaguer)I watched a kid on an opposing team throwing slurves in every game he pitched,his dad is a doctor.
His dad made that call,not the coaches.
Absolutely. Right after I remind the dad of the rules and he declines to follow them. There's no kid too good to bow to. This is how prima donnas are created. As a coach one of my responsibilities is not to allow kids to become prima donnas on my watch. I turned two away before I made a roster. I'm into developing players, not prima donnas.quote:Lets say you have a stud player. The type of player every team in your area would die for.The kind of player that is a game changer. You mean to tell me that if that players dad said you need to do this with my son or that with my son, you would tell him to get lost?
The team aways finished at least in the top six in the state, for what that matters before high school. In reality we looked for the right tournaments regardless of affiliation. We looked for quality, not rankings. We weren't intersted in beating up on teams for points when there was a better tournament to be played elsewhere. They won a lot of games and won several tournaments.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
OCB ...
I think you better start your own team or find a coach you can walk on. A knowledgeable coach isn't going to put up with your stuff. It's obvious you have an attitude most coaches don't know what they're doing. That may be the case on daddyball teams where daddy is trying to get that trophy his kid didn't get in all-stars. The good organizations don't have that problem. I never coached like I needed another trophy. I coached to teach kids how to play the game better.
As I mentioned my son doesnt pitch and he is on one of those nationally ranked teams. I dont coach during the games, Im a stand dad. However during practices both teams my son plays for all have me work with the kids because they respect the knowledge I have and realize it only helps the kids which in turn helps the team.
I have had my glory days. I dont need to be the coach of record. I can help in the shadows and be satisfied personally knowing that I have help a group of kids reach that next level.
quote:Ask ANY HS, College, Ex MLB pitcher or MLB pitching coach when a kid should start to throw curve balls. Non of these individuals will say at ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or even 16."
Based on what? They're misinformed. Dr Andrew's organization did the research. They could not find any connection between a properly thrown curve and arm injury in youth pitchers.
By the way. Welcome to the board. It's been interesting..
I suggest you read the report done by Lyman. Everyone will have their own opinions but based off of experience I have seen hundreds of kids from ages 11 to 22 end their pitching careers from throwing curve balls or being over pitched.
Also thanks for the welcome. None of this is meant to be a personal attack on you. Just like you I find it to be an interesting discussion with varying opinions.
I'll bet most of those injuries were misdiagnosed as being related to curves rather than from simple overuse. Dr Andrew's (I presume you know who he is) organization made the focus the curve. They could not find a correlation. They came back and said the kids injuring their arms were either throwing the curve wrong or usually just plain pitching too much.
I do believe there are way too many kids throwing curves incorrectly. When we made the 13U travel team comprised of the best LL all-stars from the district, we had several kids junk their curves. They were throwing it wrong and creating stress on their forearm and elbow.
I do believe there are way too many kids throwing curves incorrectly. When we made the 13U travel team comprised of the best LL all-stars from the district, we had several kids junk their curves. They were throwing it wrong and creating stress on their forearm and elbow.
quote:I must respectfully disagree with you. Even a slurve does damage to the growth plates/tendons/ligaments of a young pitcher.
See? A slurve (part slider and part curve)especially does damage to the medial collateral ligament. The curve (12-6 roatation away from the pitcher) is thrown the same as a fast ball at the shoulder and elbow.
You are not only disagreeing with me about going from pitch to another position other than catching, you are disagreeing with the scientists who have studied it. Again, trot over to ASMI.
You dogmatically proclaim that harm will come with overuse. I say it may happen. How many pitches in your estimate (per game, per week, per year) constitutes overuse?
Yes, if that stud player was being micromanaged by his father it would become acidic to the team and they would both be gone. You learn these things after you have some experience with youth ball. And you, Mr. HS coach, would you prostitute yourself to keep the stud? You are right, I don't have a top elite team. My coaching days are over. There is no such thing as elite in youth baseball except in the minds of the coaches who have recruited early bloomers from far and wide.
I think we have both made our positions clear enough that further discourse is useless. You believe what you want. I have you pegged now as someone not very knowledgeable in youth sports and may well believe that success there is predictive of future success. Enjoy the ride.
I pitched until I was 15 (and I mean a lot!) and I can't say I ever threw a curve ball in a game. I didn't need it. I've heard and read time and time again scouts and coaches saying "I can teach him to throw a curve ball; I can't teach him to throw 90 mph" and I think it's absolutely right.
In fact, I pitched so much between ages 9-14 that most people would criticize my coaches I'm sure. See, there was no such thing as a pitch count--I pitched if I was allowed to pitch. It was all about the innings. And as soon as I was done pitching, I went to behind the plate, short stop, or 3rd base. I had ONE time when my arm actually hurt and that was in high school when we played 3 days in a row and it was COLD.
That's part of my training and education. I see many things that others don't see. I'm not saying I "know" someone better than his or her parent, but I can read when someone is hurt.
The players I coached last year and the players I work with on a daily basis know that the most important thing to me is their health. Yes, I know they are going to lie to me (I was just like them only a few years ago).
The thing about pain and sickness, etc is that only they know when it's too much. There's a difference between hurt and injured and they have to know what that is. They have to know when they have to stop. I think most do that.
In fact, I pitched so much between ages 9-14 that most people would criticize my coaches I'm sure. See, there was no such thing as a pitch count--I pitched if I was allowed to pitch. It was all about the innings. And as soon as I was done pitching, I went to behind the plate, short stop, or 3rd base. I had ONE time when my arm actually hurt and that was in high school when we played 3 days in a row and it was COLD.
quote:Most kids dont want to let their team down so its hard as a coach to sometimes see if a kid is really hurting. You said if a player is looking good, feeling good and is effective he wont come out of the game.
Now I will ask. Who knows the child better, you as a coach or me as a parent. I think we both know the answer to that question.
Parents see things in their child that most dont when they are feeling bad. A good example. My son back in a tournament in Feb was sick, the coaches never knew until I told them he was feeling bad.
They took him out of the game when he didnt want to come out and he got upset about it. After the game even after puking his guts up he told me he didnt want to come out because he wanted to help his team.
That's part of my training and education. I see many things that others don't see. I'm not saying I "know" someone better than his or her parent, but I can read when someone is hurt.
The players I coached last year and the players I work with on a daily basis know that the most important thing to me is their health. Yes, I know they are going to lie to me (I was just like them only a few years ago).
The thing about pain and sickness, etc is that only they know when it's too much. There's a difference between hurt and injured and they have to know what that is. They have to know when they have to stop. I think most do that.
quote:You are not only disagreeing with me about going from pitch to another position other than catching, you are disagreeing with the scientists who have studied it. Again, trot over to ASMI..
Everyone has an opinion, if all scientist were right all the time we wouldnt have cancer or we wouldnt have thought the world was flat...LOL
My opinions come from 20+ years either playing baseball or coaching. Most all scientific studies are skewed and or flawed. The sampling is too small and lacks quality control measures.
quote:You dogmatically proclaim that harm will come with overuse. I say it may happen. How many pitches in your estimate (per game, per week, per year) constitutes overuse?..
You will have to forgive me but there was another study last year and I forgot who did the study. However it suggested that youth baseball players from the ages of 9 to 12 shouldnt exceed more than 80 throws a day. This was another study I believe was skewed because it group those opinions based on pitchers but applied them to every position within baseball.
My personal opinion based on my experience. From ages 9-10 I suggest no more than 80 thrown balls a day using a lot of exertion for any position other than pitching.
What I have seen is that kids in this age range tend to weaken after 80 thrown balls. Once the arm become weak, there is then the increased chance of arm injury. This is only my opinion.
quote:I think we have both made our positions clear enough that further discourse is useless. You believe what you want. I have you pegged now as someone not very knowledgeable in youth sports and may well believe that success there is predictive of future success. Enjoy the ride.
Success is a byproduct of hard work and dedication. Can you predict whether or not a kid playing youth baseball has a chance to play in the Majors...No but any child who dares to dream, has the inate tools and puts all the hard work required to achieve that dream, has a better chance of realizing that dream than any kid just blessed with nothing but raw talent and no work ethic.
OMG. You came here to this board not to gain information but rather to pontificate your beliefs. You have demonstrated that you do not know the difference between a curve and a slurve. You are looking for justification of your positions which didn't happen. Now you say that pitch limits should be the same for a 9 year old as for a 12 year old. Your first post had it right but not strong enough. You don't know squat about youth baseball.
quote:Most all scientific studies are skewed and or flawed. The sampling is too small and lacks quality control measures.
I've been down this road a few weeks ago talking about squat technique (in S&C section). I would be laughed right out of a job if I talked about things like that. In fact, I would say a lot of health care people would be laughed right out of jobs if they talked like that.
quote:You will have to forgive me but there was another study last year and I forgot who did the study. However it suggested that youth baseball players from the ages of 9 to 12 shouldnt exceed more than 80 throws a day. This was another study I believe was skewed because it group those opinions based on pitchers but applied them to every position within baseball.
quote:My personal opinion based on my experience. From ages 9-10 I suggest no more than 80 thrown balls a day using a lot of exertion for any position other than pitching.
So which is it? Studies are no good even though one appears to agree with your opinion?
There is no magic number. Each person is different and each person is going to have a different threshold. A player is done when his performance drops, he says he's hurting, or he is visually hurting. That can be at pitch #5 or that could be at pitch #115.
Boys, Boys...
Can't we just get along?
I am concerned about the topic of what pitches, how many etc. a boy should throw. My boy is 10. He has (on his own) figured out how to throw a breaking ball, more of a slider, and it's working for him. 0-and-2 or 1-and-2 LL batters will almost always chase it and miss. I sure don't want him ruining his arm, but man, it is effective.
So, how old until this is safe to throw?
Can't we just get along?
I am concerned about the topic of what pitches, how many etc. a boy should throw. My boy is 10. He has (on his own) figured out how to throw a breaking ball, more of a slider, and it's working for him. 0-and-2 or 1-and-2 LL batters will almost always chase it and miss. I sure don't want him ruining his arm, but man, it is effective.
So, how old until this is safe to throw?
quote:I am concerned about the topic of what pitches, how many etc. a boy should throw. My boy is 10. He has (on his own) figured out how to throw a breaking ball, more of a slider, and it's working for him. 0-and-2 or 1-and-2 LL batters will almost always chase it and miss. I sure don't want him ruining his arm, but man, it is effective.
So, how old until this is safe to throw?
I can't fully answer your question. I am not a fan of any breaking ball being thrown until junior or senior year of high school. Many will disagree with me, but I think it is more important for a kid to learn how to throw his fastball and his change up for a strike at the younger age. So I would say throw the breaking ball sparingly, but that's just might take
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:I am concerned about the topic of what pitches, how many etc. a boy should throw. My boy is 10. He has (on his own) figured out how to throw a breaking ball, more of a slider, and it's working for him. 0-and-2 or 1-and-2 LL batters will almost always chase it and miss. I sure don't want him ruining his arm, but man, it is effective.
So, how old until this is safe to throw?
I can't fully answer your question. I am not a fan of any breaking ball being thrown until junior or senior year of high school. Many will disagree with me, but I think it is more important for a kid to learn how to throw his fastball and his change up for a strike at the younger age. So I would say throw the breaking ball sparingly, but that's just might take
Poppi I agree with Bulldog. As he stated in one of his post any college or MLB coach will tell you he can teach a kid to throw a curve ball quickly.
Work on throwing the fastball and changeups and hitting his spots. There is no need at 10 yrs to place undue stress or strain on your sons arm. A good changeup will sit those same batters down as will that curve ball.
quote:So which is it? Studies are no good even though one appears to agree with your opinion?
I dont care for too many studies. IMO most are skewed to represent the group or agencies who have paid for them. I would expand on this but it would be another book LOL.
And yes even the ones that agree with me I still dont give them much weight. I base my opinions off of my own personal experience. Can I be wrong...yes..Can I be right...Yes...this is why they call them opinions
OCB ...
I just wanted to say I enjoyed the exchange. We're very much on the same page in regards to the objective. We just disagree on how to get there. I will admit I couldn't resist the jab at calling a 10 year old elite.
When we ran the team from 13-15U the primary goal was to prepare players for high school ball and win as much as possible within those goals without harming any players. We weren't the team with the five stud pitchers. Pre high school stud pitchers often come packaged with PITA fathers. What we had was eleven good pitchers that just kept coming at teams. While some teams would ride their aces, we would be bringing in a fresh pitcher. A good, fresh pitcher is better than a tired stud.
When I started the team the first step was quality instruction. I put together a coaching staff of former college players (some with pro experience) to cover all the positions. One was an OF/P. One was an INF/P. One was a catcher. One was an All-American pitcher. We wanted to be able to teach every aspect of the game. I'm pleased with the results. As I mentioned eleven of fourteen are starting on varsity as sophs. Some of it's instruction. More of it is the players talent, motivation and willingness to learn. At 16U some are headed into showcase environments. Last year as fifteen year olds we pushed them up to 16U. They didn't win any tournaments. But they met the challenge of competing.
I'm not a big fan of the USSSA or AAU type tournament play during the preteen years. I don't like the idea of little kids playing more than two games a day. I don't like the idea there are more nutcase coaches abusing pitcher in preteen travel than teenage travel. It's more important to look at the coach's philosophy than winning percentage when choosing a pre high school team. No one remembers who won before high school. It's not even discussed. The few "remember whens" are more likely to be about the humorous moments than the games. We had some classic humorous memories watching little boys turning into young men.
Fortunately Ripken and LL are still popular and quality ball in our area through age twelve. At 9U and 10U the kids played in local community based all-star summer tournaments with only four games in a tournament. That minimizes the need for a lot of innings versus the five or six game tournaments in national organizations. Still, I'm not a fan of 9's and 10's pitching more than a couple of innings a week. It's just not that important to pitch at that age.
At 11U and 12U we did the USSSA Sunday doubleheader league with the prospective LL all-stars. Fourteen kids pitched an inning. The all-star team played into August both years so that was summer ball. I believe the doubleheader league gave them the week to week competition to be ready for all-stars.
The kids came out of the 13-15 travel with a lot of medals (my son plays ring toss with them) and now varsity letters. Mission accomplished. Now it's on other coaches to help the ones that want it get to college ball. When my son was invited to join a showcase program it was time to turn him over. I also believe it's possible to coach your own kid too long.
Good luck. Enjoy the journey. If you look too far down the road you'll miss a lot of fun along the way.
I just wanted to say I enjoyed the exchange. We're very much on the same page in regards to the objective. We just disagree on how to get there. I will admit I couldn't resist the jab at calling a 10 year old elite.
When we ran the team from 13-15U the primary goal was to prepare players for high school ball and win as much as possible within those goals without harming any players. We weren't the team with the five stud pitchers. Pre high school stud pitchers often come packaged with PITA fathers. What we had was eleven good pitchers that just kept coming at teams. While some teams would ride their aces, we would be bringing in a fresh pitcher. A good, fresh pitcher is better than a tired stud.
When I started the team the first step was quality instruction. I put together a coaching staff of former college players (some with pro experience) to cover all the positions. One was an OF/P. One was an INF/P. One was a catcher. One was an All-American pitcher. We wanted to be able to teach every aspect of the game. I'm pleased with the results. As I mentioned eleven of fourteen are starting on varsity as sophs. Some of it's instruction. More of it is the players talent, motivation and willingness to learn. At 16U some are headed into showcase environments. Last year as fifteen year olds we pushed them up to 16U. They didn't win any tournaments. But they met the challenge of competing.
I'm not a big fan of the USSSA or AAU type tournament play during the preteen years. I don't like the idea of little kids playing more than two games a day. I don't like the idea there are more nutcase coaches abusing pitcher in preteen travel than teenage travel. It's more important to look at the coach's philosophy than winning percentage when choosing a pre high school team. No one remembers who won before high school. It's not even discussed. The few "remember whens" are more likely to be about the humorous moments than the games. We had some classic humorous memories watching little boys turning into young men.
Fortunately Ripken and LL are still popular and quality ball in our area through age twelve. At 9U and 10U the kids played in local community based all-star summer tournaments with only four games in a tournament. That minimizes the need for a lot of innings versus the five or six game tournaments in national organizations. Still, I'm not a fan of 9's and 10's pitching more than a couple of innings a week. It's just not that important to pitch at that age.
At 11U and 12U we did the USSSA Sunday doubleheader league with the prospective LL all-stars. Fourteen kids pitched an inning. The all-star team played into August both years so that was summer ball. I believe the doubleheader league gave them the week to week competition to be ready for all-stars.
The kids came out of the 13-15 travel with a lot of medals (my son plays ring toss with them) and now varsity letters. Mission accomplished. Now it's on other coaches to help the ones that want it get to college ball. When my son was invited to join a showcase program it was time to turn him over. I also believe it's possible to coach your own kid too long.
Good luck. Enjoy the journey. If you look too far down the road you'll miss a lot of fun along the way.
RJM- No question there are bad parents out there. Also no question there are bad coaches. There's a difference in setting pitching limits and dictating how to play your son. My thought is that a coach should have a set philosophy on how he uses his pitching staff and stick to it no matter the situation.
A good program has long-term philosophies as opposed to short-term, reactionary decisions. The key is to find a program that understands priorities. This is a journey and all of these games and tournaments are just quizzes and tests on how the development is progressing. The byproduct is that good programs will also win their share because they take care of the process.
A good program has long-term philosophies as opposed to short-term, reactionary decisions. The key is to find a program that understands priorities. This is a journey and all of these games and tournaments are just quizzes and tests on how the development is progressing. The byproduct is that good programs will also win their share because they take care of the process.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:Coaches, if any parent tries to dictate terms and conditions on how their son will be used run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that parent. It will only get worse every week. If the parent is that way he is only concerned about his kid and doesn't respect the team or the coaching staff.quote:Now as for that travel ball coach who would not place your son on a roster if you told him how many pitches your SON is allowed to throw. I say run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that coach. If his coach is that way then this tells me he has no concern for your childs health and is only concerned about his reputation based on his winning percentage to be aquired at all cost.
RJM,
I also enjoyed our debate. It was fun and enlighting. As I mentioned I am new to youth baseball so this experience with my son has been an eye opening experience.
I have seen things that turn my stomach as an ex coach. I have also seen things that give me hope for our future baseball players.
You mentioned about how most stud pitcher dads are using your words PITA parents. I havent seen that here in youth travel ball. Two of the best pitchers in this area their dads are fantastic. Maybe I am just lucky.
Now dont get me wrong I have seen some dads that make your eyes roll back in your head LOL and seen some moms that make the dads look like angels. Dont let the moms fool you, they can be twice as bad as daddy can LOL
Ive seen good coaches but probably seem more bad ones. Its not their attitudes with the kids, its their lack of knowledge and instructing the kids incorrectly. It takes more time to correct bad mechanics than too create new proper ones
Its coaches that run their teams out of innings, its coaches that call 2-0 and 3-0 curve balls, its coaches arguing rules on the field that have no clue as to what they are talking about and only embarassing their team and child, its coaches calling 0-2 high fastballs when based on a kids swing you can tell likes the high heat and the kid hits it out of the park and the coach jumps all over the pitcher. I could go on and on LOL.
Trust me I dont know everything about baseball but based on most of what I have seen in youth travel ball for coaches I look like a genius...LMAO.
As mentioned my son is new to baseball as well. He started playing last March in Rec ball. He played a little more than half the season and we moved to south florida. He started playing in a 12u wood bat league in the summer and competitive travel in August and since playing 10u and 11u as a 9 yr old hit over 750 and defensively has a tremendous gift on the infield.
Maybe in some way no matter what our experience level is as fathers we always want to believe that our child has a chance. I am no different even though I try to be objective.
Please trust me I am not trying to brag here but would like some opinions.
How many 9yr olds who had played baseball for less than a year do you know or have seen that can hit with solid mechanics an 85 mph pitch consistantly?
Im glad I found this forum. It looks to be a lot of fun and informative. Hope you and I get a chance to interact more on some of these issues.
I also enjoyed our debate. It was fun and enlighting. As I mentioned I am new to youth baseball so this experience with my son has been an eye opening experience.
I have seen things that turn my stomach as an ex coach. I have also seen things that give me hope for our future baseball players.
You mentioned about how most stud pitcher dads are using your words PITA parents. I havent seen that here in youth travel ball. Two of the best pitchers in this area their dads are fantastic. Maybe I am just lucky.
Now dont get me wrong I have seen some dads that make your eyes roll back in your head LOL and seen some moms that make the dads look like angels. Dont let the moms fool you, they can be twice as bad as daddy can LOL
Ive seen good coaches but probably seem more bad ones. Its not their attitudes with the kids, its their lack of knowledge and instructing the kids incorrectly. It takes more time to correct bad mechanics than too create new proper ones
Its coaches that run their teams out of innings, its coaches that call 2-0 and 3-0 curve balls, its coaches arguing rules on the field that have no clue as to what they are talking about and only embarassing their team and child, its coaches calling 0-2 high fastballs when based on a kids swing you can tell likes the high heat and the kid hits it out of the park and the coach jumps all over the pitcher. I could go on and on LOL.
Trust me I dont know everything about baseball but based on most of what I have seen in youth travel ball for coaches I look like a genius...LMAO.
As mentioned my son is new to baseball as well. He started playing last March in Rec ball. He played a little more than half the season and we moved to south florida. He started playing in a 12u wood bat league in the summer and competitive travel in August and since playing 10u and 11u as a 9 yr old hit over 750 and defensively has a tremendous gift on the infield.
Maybe in some way no matter what our experience level is as fathers we always want to believe that our child has a chance. I am no different even though I try to be objective.
Please trust me I am not trying to brag here but would like some opinions.
How many 9yr olds who had played baseball for less than a year do you know or have seen that can hit with solid mechanics an 85 mph pitch consistantly?
Im glad I found this forum. It looks to be a lot of fun and informative. Hope you and I get a chance to interact more on some of these issues.
Let's review the difference between a MLB curve and a slurve or LL curve.
A true, properly thrown curve breaks downward with a rotation of 12 to 6 away from the pitcher. It is not effective on the small diamond because there is not enough distance for it to break well and because kids cannot generate enough rotational velocity. The shoulder and elbow joint movement is the same as a fast ball. It is different from a fast ball at the wrist joint only. It is no more stressful than a fast ball.
A slurve is part slider with lateral rotation and part curve with vertical rotation. Because of the supination and snapping off motion is is very stressful on the medial epicondyle of the elbow with a high risk of developing LL elbow. The rotation is in the neighborhood of 45 degrees and it breaks laterally and vertically making it an effective pitch but only on the small diamond with inexperienced batters. After that it is batting practice since it is easily picked up by the batter. I would forbid any youth player from throwing this pitch.
Before hitting the full sized diamond a pitcher should master (have command and control) of a 2 seam and 4 seam fast ball and a change up. Nothing more is necessary to be effective.
A true, properly thrown curve breaks downward with a rotation of 12 to 6 away from the pitcher. It is not effective on the small diamond because there is not enough distance for it to break well and because kids cannot generate enough rotational velocity. The shoulder and elbow joint movement is the same as a fast ball. It is different from a fast ball at the wrist joint only. It is no more stressful than a fast ball.
A slurve is part slider with lateral rotation and part curve with vertical rotation. Because of the supination and snapping off motion is is very stressful on the medial epicondyle of the elbow with a high risk of developing LL elbow. The rotation is in the neighborhood of 45 degrees and it breaks laterally and vertically making it an effective pitch but only on the small diamond with inexperienced batters. After that it is batting practice since it is easily picked up by the batter. I would forbid any youth player from throwing this pitch.
Before hitting the full sized diamond a pitcher should master (have command and control) of a 2 seam and 4 seam fast ball and a change up. Nothing more is necessary to be effective.
Wow....long thread.
I think several of you are saying the same thing, just in different ways.
There are a few things I don't agree with, but that's just my opinion.
First off, a real 12-6 curveball is no more stressful on a young or older arm than a fastball. Problem is not too many people involved with youth baseball know how to throw it and even fewer know how to teach it and watch for proper form.
I started throwing one at 10. My Dad caught me messing around with a "Curve" ball on my own. "Curve" = cranking it over making it move. He showed me the correct way to throw it. (Like Daque stated, elbow / shoulder looks / acts like fastball. It's simply a different angle with the wrist and the fingers / wrist do all the "work".
I threw for 9 more years before a previous HS football injury caught up with me.
Honestly I can say, on days that I was tired, and pitching, it was easier on me to throw a curve than a fastball.
I think many coaches and MLB / ex-MLB players are well aware of the lawsuit happy country we live in. Of course you won't hear them telling kids to throw curve balls.
Know I DO BELIEVE that kids AND coaches can fall into a "trap" with the curveball at a young age. It will get outs...and pitchers tend to rely on it instead of relying on their Fastball, location and a CU or other off speed pitch.
A good curveball at 12U travel ball is really effective when thrown a few times an inning. Just enough to get the kids, parents and coaches yelling "Watch for the curve" on every two strike count. My pitchers know that when they hear this, they throw it high and hard....of course most hitters are expecting curve when that's all he's hearing.
As for pitch limits....
There are coaches that will overuse youth pitchers. And as a coach and a parent...I can say if it was my kid on the mound, and I was not a coach, and the kid's arm was hurting, mechanics were failing, and the kid was obviously in pain...it would be the last time the coach did that to my son. I wouldn't dictate terms...he just wouldn't be playing for him anymore.
Of course that wouldn't happen...since every youth coach (even at "elite" levels) that would do this....they already have a reputation. You just have to talk to the right people. So if I was just a parent, my kid would never have been there to start.
Pitch counts aren't the answer either..not in full. Because at say 12 year old for example, every kid is different. Strength, early bloomers, superior mechanics and conditioning...all these effect "pitch counts".
On my 12U team I've got two big strong 12 year olds with solid mechanics. They normally pitch an inning or two of "tune up" on Saturday Pool play just to get some work. This usually equates to roughly 15-30 pitches on Saturday. On an average tournament Sunday, each will pitch 3-6 innings.....pitch counts vary....I keep track, but more importantly I know each kid's mechanics..and when they start to fail, they come out.
On the other hand I've got two other kids...both effective pitchers, but not quite as developed as the other two. Their usual pitch count threshholds are much lower. I also know when their mechanics are failing them when they tire.
Alot of problem with pitching and youth baseball is lack of knowledge and common sense.
But the simple fact is that young players need to throw....ALOT more than most do. I didn't say pitch...I said throw.
Kids seem to be getting much bigger and much stronger these days, but pitch counts keep getting lower and lower. Why?
Maybe between pitching instruction, playing on multiple teams, kids pitch more than throw.
I preach to my players to THROW everyday...and I can see the difference in those that do. Arm strength is not an accident.
I think several of you are saying the same thing, just in different ways.
There are a few things I don't agree with, but that's just my opinion.
First off, a real 12-6 curveball is no more stressful on a young or older arm than a fastball. Problem is not too many people involved with youth baseball know how to throw it and even fewer know how to teach it and watch for proper form.
I started throwing one at 10. My Dad caught me messing around with a "Curve" ball on my own. "Curve" = cranking it over making it move. He showed me the correct way to throw it. (Like Daque stated, elbow / shoulder looks / acts like fastball. It's simply a different angle with the wrist and the fingers / wrist do all the "work".
I threw for 9 more years before a previous HS football injury caught up with me.
Honestly I can say, on days that I was tired, and pitching, it was easier on me to throw a curve than a fastball.
I think many coaches and MLB / ex-MLB players are well aware of the lawsuit happy country we live in. Of course you won't hear them telling kids to throw curve balls.
Know I DO BELIEVE that kids AND coaches can fall into a "trap" with the curveball at a young age. It will get outs...and pitchers tend to rely on it instead of relying on their Fastball, location and a CU or other off speed pitch.
A good curveball at 12U travel ball is really effective when thrown a few times an inning. Just enough to get the kids, parents and coaches yelling "Watch for the curve" on every two strike count. My pitchers know that when they hear this, they throw it high and hard....of course most hitters are expecting curve when that's all he's hearing.
As for pitch limits....
There are coaches that will overuse youth pitchers. And as a coach and a parent...I can say if it was my kid on the mound, and I was not a coach, and the kid's arm was hurting, mechanics were failing, and the kid was obviously in pain...it would be the last time the coach did that to my son. I wouldn't dictate terms...he just wouldn't be playing for him anymore.
Of course that wouldn't happen...since every youth coach (even at "elite" levels) that would do this....they already have a reputation. You just have to talk to the right people. So if I was just a parent, my kid would never have been there to start.
Pitch counts aren't the answer either..not in full. Because at say 12 year old for example, every kid is different. Strength, early bloomers, superior mechanics and conditioning...all these effect "pitch counts".
On my 12U team I've got two big strong 12 year olds with solid mechanics. They normally pitch an inning or two of "tune up" on Saturday Pool play just to get some work. This usually equates to roughly 15-30 pitches on Saturday. On an average tournament Sunday, each will pitch 3-6 innings.....pitch counts vary....I keep track, but more importantly I know each kid's mechanics..and when they start to fail, they come out.
On the other hand I've got two other kids...both effective pitchers, but not quite as developed as the other two. Their usual pitch count threshholds are much lower. I also know when their mechanics are failing them when they tire.
Alot of problem with pitching and youth baseball is lack of knowledge and common sense.
But the simple fact is that young players need to throw....ALOT more than most do. I didn't say pitch...I said throw.
Kids seem to be getting much bigger and much stronger these days, but pitch counts keep getting lower and lower. Why?
Maybe between pitching instruction, playing on multiple teams, kids pitch more than throw.
I preach to my players to THROW everyday...and I can see the difference in those that do. Arm strength is not an accident.