SultanofSwat posted:It's one thing to want to retire to spend more time with your family. People do it all the time with class and grace.
Just don't pretend to blame your employer. Not classy.
Huh?
coach2709 posted:cabbagedad posted:Coach, agree with everything you said 'til the last sentence. When someone walks away from that much $ when it doesn't appear to be a life or death decision, it's going to be very controversial. I AM curious to hear "the rest of the story".
After further in depth thought (you can tell my classes are taking a test today) you are right and this is a story. This is the fourth post on this topic I've made in 2 days. It's on it's second page and we are still debating it. It is a story.
Ha! That is too funny. Sitting here bored to tears monitoring a test as we speak!!! Coach I feel your pain and the need for an outlet!
It's been reported, that there might have been some verbiage in LaRoche's contract that allowed him to have his son at Spring Training... Apparently the Player's Union is looking into it...
Maybe Chris sale is right. Maybe the wrong guy did walk out of the locker room. Maybe it should have been him. He is rightfully being ripped on the score (Chicago sports talk radio) today. Nice to see he is so focused on the season. HE is now causing the distraction. i have five kids. I am a sub now but spent years teaching and coaching. I really like kids. But when it's time for the big people (coaches, friends etc.) to sit down and have a few beers or even don't have a few beers I don't want the kids around. And it's sort of like dogs for me. I love my dog but your dog is an annoyance and I want him/her to go away! You can bet your a** there are some players who don't want to speak publicly that were annoyed. Why doesn't everybody just bring their kids in... And wives, girlfriends and mistresses! Throw in mom and dad, grandma and grandpa, friends and neighbors.
..."Why doesn't everybody just bring their kids in... And wives, girlfriends and mistresses! Throw in mom and dad, grandma and grandpa, friends and neighbors. "..... Mr. Reinsdorf, we are going to need a bigger locker room and lots of jerseys.
In his own words...
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sof75p
1) ALR statement: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/...-from-white-sox.html
2) Drake was a regular in the Nats clubhouse, and was on superb behavior. Not a negative word. BTW: so was Werth's oldest.
3) Let's see...who else has been to the clubhouse on a regular basis as a child: Junior? Dusty's son? Barry Bond's son? Barry himself? Was Cecil's kid a regular, and did his kid ever look like a kid? The list goes on...
This has been around for a while, and if it's an issue for the club(s) or MLB, incorporate it into the CBA. KW has every right, as a representative of the employer, to issue a guideline, make a suggestion, etc. That doesn't mean there won't be pushback, especially with a strong union presence and a CBA.
Chris Sale makes a very good point. As I had said earlier, this was an issue that needed to be brought to the manager and players.
Its their clubhouse, clubhouses are run by the manager and the players. It runs on team chemistry. This guy sounds like a power freak. No wonder the White Sox can't get it together.
This isnt your regular 40 hour job. This is part of the culture. The clubhouse is open to players friends and family. I think that is what's being missed by some of you. I hope someday your sons get into a ML clubhouse and invites you in.
And I don't think you all know this is how it is...front office vs the players, even for the big contract guys.
Bolts-Coach-PR posted:In his own words...
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sof75p
For those who didn't read this Adam is claiming that at first they said cut down the time your son is at the park drastically and later on it was flipped to don't bring him at all.
He said it was likely to be his last year anyway and he couldn't think about spending it without his son. I say again, good for him.
Just realized the title of this topic is wrong.
Nothing towards the OP, but just goes to show that unless you are a fly in the room, everything is just speculation.
TPM posted:Just realized the title of this topic is wrong.
Nothing towards the OP, but just goes to show that unless you are a fly in the room, everything is just speculation.
Agree with the speculation, lots of "speculative reports" today. Most likely the full story won't be known. And will blow over once the season starts, unless you are in white sox nation.
At the end of the day, Mr. Reinsdorf has a big mess on his hands.
Personally i think that kids don't belong to a workplace. But still that thing turned out to be a PR disaster for the sox. Chris sale - basically the biggest star on the sox has slammed club president Kenny Williams siding with laRoche. That thing is getting ugly.
TPM posted:Just realized the title of this topic is wrong.
Nothing towards the OP, but just goes to show that unless you are a fly in the room, everything is just speculation.
It was the exact title of the article. Also, as far as I know Kenny Williams hasn't admitted he asked for zero visits, he's only admitted he asked for less.
Sale called Williams a liar. Williams should trade him for discipline reasons ..... to the Red Sox.
CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:Just realized the title of this topic is wrong.
Nothing towards the OP, but just goes to show that unless you are a fly in the room, everything is just speculation.
It was the exact title of the article. Also, as far as I know Kenny Williams hasn't admitted he asked for zero visits, he's only admitted he asked for less.
The article talks about his intention to retire.
This isn't on you but rather how misinformed everyone is of exactly what happened. He said, she said, he lied....don't you wonder what really went down?
RJM,
I doubt Sale would stay with the white Sox...would you?
TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:Just realized the title of this topic is wrong.
Nothing towards the OP, but just goes to show that unless you are a fly in the room, everything is just speculation.
It was the exact title of the article. Also, as far as I know Kenny Williams hasn't admitted he asked for zero visits, he's only admitted he asked for less.
The article talks about his intention to retire.
This isn't on you but rather how misinformed everyone is of exactly what happened. He said, she said, he lied....don't you wonder what really went down?
RJM,
I doubt Sale would stay with the white Sox...would you?
No I don't wonder what went down. And frankly don't much care. Son with you 100% of the time is a bit silly. But more importantly the white sox were relieved of a bad salary. And if sale wants to go so be it. He needs to grow up and do his job and stop worrying about the grand injustice that happened to laroche.
IMO, it is this simple. This is a work place for the entire team. In coaching, I have an office. I don't expect to see a kid in that office unless I call them in. This is selfish of LaRoche to disregard his teammates. Many of which are trying to stay in MLB. Having a distraction like having a kid around is a distraction whether some of us want to admit it or not. Should they be uncomfortable, it isn't like a borderline player or someone not in MLB for a period of time would say anything. If LaRoche wants his son around MLB Players then this makes no sense. I would wrap up by saying that if his son is home schooled, this raises questions as to how rigid that schooling is.
FWIW, lots of professional players home school their children.
I have a friend who is a sportscaster for a ML team. He posted a pic of him and his son on IG at the ballpark, son is about 2.
So someone said leave him home, or you will have to retire.
2020dad posted:wsoxfanatic posted:2020dad posted:As a lifelong sox fan... HOOOOORRAAAAY! What a windfall. Saving 13m on a washed up bad player. Hope he does not expect sympathy. Don't get me wrong the players have the right to cut their best deal - it's a business. And management has a right to police their clubhouse (and perhaps hope he quits and saves them money) after all - it's a business! As a fan I hope they use that money wisely - NO MORE ADAMS!
p.s. My understanding is this goes on all year not just spring training. I am sure he is a great kid. My 14yo is a great kid. But I didn't bring him to work today. Justnaseball I am sure your son is right. I am sure he is a good guy. But I can't help be giddy as a sox fan!!!
DITTO!
As everyone can see we sox fans are devastated and heart broken from this loss! His decision is final. There is no possible way they will take him back. Unless they have to because somehow it is not official yet. Good riddance, see ya!
Yes. You have the right to your opinion, but this opinion is disgusting. The guy is a stand up person who has worked it out to spend a lot of time with his son. What a jerk, huh? Perhaps he should have left 'em all to ""baby mamma" to care for while he feeds your desire for a few more hits and wins.
Don't like washed up players? Get your front office to do a better job of determining talent and negotiating deals. Don't decide he wasn't worth it, now let's hold him hostage to his ideals to try to push him out.
Larouche has had his son with him for years (Again, damn him for being a good dad). His son is home schooled. He had an agreement with the White Sox that his son could be in the club house as much as ever. It was a gentleman's agreement, but apparently Williams is no gentleman. He broke the agreement, perhaps to cynically make up for his poor business decisions.
The kid was no detriment to anything . The players loved him. Chris Sale is livid and their union rep is filing a grievanc. He was no detriment to his dad's play, he's been with him for many good years. Williams lied his way around the player meeting. He's coming off as scum. This was scummy. An agreement was in place. Honor it. A man's only as good as his word and William's word is worthless.
Btw. Kids can and have accompanied their fathers to work for milliennia. It's called apprenticeship. It's only recently that dad's have begun abandoning their sons and shipping them off to other people to "care for". I love spending time with my kids. It makes all the difference.
The White Sox are disgusting for their treatment of LaRoche. And this move was classless. But, "Hey! That's Chicago!" Right?
TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:Just realized the title of this topic is wrong.
Nothing towards the OP, but just goes to show that unless you are a fly in the room, everything is just speculation.
It was the exact title of the article. Also, as far as I know Kenny Williams hasn't admitted he asked for zero visits, he's only admitted he asked for less.
The article talks about his intention to retire.
This isn't on you but rather how misinformed everyone is of exactly what happened. He said, she said, he lied....don't you wonder what really went down?
RJM,
I doubt Sale would stay with the white Sox...would you?
I'm thinking Sale lashed out at Williams due to past issues with this being the final straw. Bad mouthing the GM is often a one way ticket out of town.
There was an article in ESPN Boston on trading a top hitting prospect(Benintendi), a low minors top pitching prospect, Allen Craig and two other prospects for Sale.
I chatted with someone you know whose son was a teammate of LaRoche. He said LaRoche is one of the best liked players in baseball.
Do you think that sale wants to force the sox to trade him?
I respect Adam LaRoche for making his decision based on his family values and not the all might dollar. I also understand the teams side of things. IMO, I think there was a player or 2 that did not like the kid in the clubhouse all the time and complained directly to Williams and not to Ventura. Also, kudos to LaRoche for raising a very respectful son.
If what the article states is true then I think the Cardinals manager was very accommodating. Personally if I was the manager I would have a rule that no one can bring their kid to the clubhouse during work hours. If you want to bring your family for a tour outside of work hours then that would be fine. This is more of a safety issue. Anyone remember Bonds kid as a bat boy during the World Series?
Also you allow it for one player you have to allow it for all. Can you imagine most players bringing their kids to practice? What about bringing multiple kids per player?
There are plenty of players in the minors that will love to have Adam LaRoche spot.
lionbaseball posted:If what the article states is true then I think the Cardinals manager was very accommodating. Personally if I was the manager I would have a rule that no one can bring their kid to the clubhouse during work hours. If you want to bring your family for a tour outside of work hours then that would be fine. This is more of a safety issue. Anyone remember Bonds kid as a bat boy during the World Series?
Also you allow it for one player you have to allow it for all. Can you imagine most players bringing their kids to practice? What about bringing multiple kids per player?
There are plenty of players in the minors that will love to have Adam LaRoche spot.
Cardinals?
Well I know most don't understand. For these guys it's a way of life. Things are different. It's a father and son game. Normal work rules do not apply. You don't think Matheny's son was with his dad? Or any other ML manager?
Pretty surprised that some of you who sound like you are so involved in your sons baseball lives think this is wrong.
While I don't necessarily agree with being with the team 24/7, understanding the difficult challenges that come with this job, I understand. Keep in mind that not all players want to raise their children in certain places. Players make choices because they can as where to bring their families.
I'm of the opinion that LaRoche asked, and was granted, this special request. Regardless of if you think it was an insane request, the White Sox agreed then they went back on their word. Going back on your word is never good business, and this will cost them. I think Williams will be eaten alive in the press and the clubhouse.
This has turned into a case study of bad decisions and how to handle them IMHO. First there is the player request to the team which is granted and then broken. Second is the player leaving $13M on the table in the swan song of his career. There won't be another $13M contract coming to him at his age. Third, is the GM Kenny Williams effort to put the blame on everybody, but where it belongs. Williams must have some serious dirt on Reinsdorf, or he saved Reinsdorfs family from a house fire, otherwise he'd be gone.
About the only positive thing to come out of this grease fire is the statement by Chris Sale which directly and succinctly calls out GM Williams and tells everybody how important team chemistry is and how the Chicago White Sox are sabotagging the whole team. I'm now a huge Chris Sale fan.
Teaching elder... Let's start with this. Do you want to reconsider any of your words/thoughts? Everybody can have a bad day sometimes. But if you want to double down on some of these inflammatory remarks then I suppose it's fair game.
2020dad posted:Teaching elder... Let's start with this. Do you want to reconsider any of your words/thoughts? Everybody can have a bad day sometimes. But if you want to double down on some of these inflammatory remarks then I suppose it's fair game
I don't believe it is me that was having the "bad day." I stand behind my words. Your position was truly crass and disgusting.
Dominik85 posted:Do you think that sale wants to force the sox to trade him?
No but he won't stay there as a free agent.
For a player to come out so strongly about Williams, for a team to want to boycott means there was trouble in paradise to begin with. Owner needs to fire front office, that's the problem.
TPM posted:Dominik85 posted:Do you think that sale wants to force the sox to trade him?
No but he won't stay there as a free agent.
For a player to come out so strongly about Williams, for a team to want to boycott means there was trouble in paradise to begin with. Owner needs to fire front office, that's the problem.
Yes. Ball players, announcers and coaches have non-traditional jobs. They are away from their families for long stretches of time during the season and for two straight months preseason. What job can you take your kid to? What job places these demands? As one article has noted, teams have to be accommodating to this dynamic.
For or so many plYers to be up-in-arms over this speaks to the matter being a Ken Williams problem. The players didn't have a problem with LaRoche, his contract or his son.
Teaching Elder posted:2020dad posted:Teaching elder... Let's start with this. Do you want to reconsider any of your words/thoughts? Everybody can have a bad day sometimes. But if you want to double down on some of these inflammatory remarks then I suppose it's fair game
I don't believe it is me that was having the "bad day." I stand behind my words. Your position was truly crass and disgusting.
I sort of agree. 2020 you should reread some of your posts.
You want everyone to play nice, you have made some insulting remarks about people you don't know.
And you actually referred to kids and dogs in the same sentence.
Maybe it's your bud light beer.
It's not as if Kenny Williams hasn't been called out by players more than once in the past. He once got in a pissing contest with the White Sox's greatest player (Frank Thomas) and trashed him publicly. I'm amazed he's lasted this long with the White Sox. I'm guessing one championship has saved him. The team is down. Attendance is down. Players are revolting. He better win this year. Or maybe he has pictures of Reinsdorf with farm animals.
RJM posted:It's not as if Kenny Williams hasn't been called out by players more than once in the past. He once got in a pissing contest with the White Sox's greatest player (Frank Thomas) and trashed him publicly. I'm amazed he's lasted this long with the White Sox. I'm guessing one championship has saved him. The team is down. Attendance is down. Players are revolting. He better win this year. Or maybe he has pictures of Reinsdorf with farm animals.
He already ruined whatever karma there was.
TPM posted:Dominik85 posted:Do you think that sale wants to force the sox to trade him?
No but he won't stay there as a free agent.
For a player to come out so strongly about Williams, for a team to want to boycott means there was trouble in paradise to begin with. Owner needs to fire front office, that's the problem.
Sale is locked in through 2019. I could see him forcing a trade. It could take a year. The WS aren't going to get short changed on their top asset.
Yes I do want to play nice. And I gave a chance for a peaceful resolution. But when someone says my opinion is 'disgusting' and calls people liars and declares people not to be gentlemen, classless etc. and castigates an entire city that I am proud to call my home - no I did not live inside the city borders but close enough. And am I supposed to turn the other cheek elder? I suppose that is what you preach but clearly we can see you are at odds with that. I am proud to be a Chicago area person. All the stories coming out of Chicago are consistent that players approached Kenny with complaints. Gee who would suspect players to say one thing publicly and another behind closed doors? And how can you blame them? Nobody wants to be known as the rat. And the dog analogy- a good one by the way - is just that an analogy! Just how my kids are endearing but yours are annoying. Tell me we haven't all felt uncomfortable around other people's kids sometimes. Same as others pets (is that better for you?) best thing since sliced bread to you but annoying to others. Nobody is saying he is a bad guy or his kid is a bad kid. But by the way the apprentice thing is laughable. Pretty sure the vast majority of apprentices actually make it to the job they are training for. What are the odds of a big leaguers son becoming a big leaguer. A whole lot better than my son's that's for sure. But still a long shot. So to say this is an apprenticeship is just plain stupid. As a SOX FAN yes I am happy to see a failed player leaving and taking his 13m salary to help boost the team elsewhere. Never said he was a bad guy but yes he is washed up. As for him being a 'great father'... Well kind of hard to define that isn't it? What's right for one family may not be right for another. I do not stand in judgment of his parenting. But I am sure you could find no shortage of people who would call this bad parenting. I will not. To each his own. But that right to parent that way ends where another mans right to a kid free workspace begins. Who is right? I guess that is what we are debating isn't it. But don't call us ignorant, classless, liars, crass, scum, disgusting etc. And don't claim an entire city/metropolitan area to be somehow sub human or without ethics/scruples. The lesser side of me would love to get in the gutter with you and make some equally crude and deplorable comments about your home area but I am sure a lot of really great people who live there would be offended. With that teaching elder I bid you good night. I am putting you on block and hope not to converse with you again... Like the true scum bag Chicagoan I am I suppose...
CaCO3Girl posted:I'm of the opinion that LaRoche asked, and was granted, this special request. Regardless of if you think it was an insane request, the White Sox agreed then they went back on their word. Going back on your word is never good business, and this will cost them. I think Williams will be eaten alive in the press and the clubhouse.
I don't really consider it going back on your word. In business, things change constantly. Mr. Williams may have thought it wasn't a big deal, and then players, coaches, etc. may have complained and therefore, he had to adjust his stance accordingly. As a GM, his responsibility is to act in the best interests of the club, no matter how unpopular the move may be.
rynoattack posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I'm of the opinion that LaRoche asked, and was granted, this special request. Regardless of if you think it was an insane request, the White Sox agreed then they went back on their word. Going back on your word is never good business, and this will cost them. I think Williams will be eaten alive in the press and the clubhouse.
I don't really consider it going back on your word. In business, things change constantly. Mr. Williams may have thought it wasn't a big deal, and then players, coaches, etc. may have complained and therefore, he had to adjust his stance accordingly. As a GM, his responsibility is to act in the best interests of the club, no matter how unpopular the move may be.
I read one opinion piece that mirrored your assertion that things change and Williams had to adjust. The response was:
"Williams obviously didn’t know that Adam LaRoche would have his son spending all of his time with his dad in spring training, right? Wrong. He was there last year. Young LaRoche has his own locker in the clubhouse. Williams saw this last year. He was completely aware of it. If he had problem with it, the team should have addressed it as a guidance rule for ALL players during the winter months before spring training started, not abruptly deciding in the middle of spring training to tell Adam LaRoche that his son is not wanted around and he needs to “dial it back." If Williams felt that LaRoche’s son shouldn’t be around so much, and he didn’t have that figured out prior to spring training, he should have waited two weeks until spring training ended and developed a guidance rule for ALL players for next season."
http://www.chicagonow.com/news...n-town-adam-laroche/
I have to say, I agree. This didn't look to me like management adjusting, this looked like management going back on their word.
CaCO3Girl posted:rynoattack posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I'm of the opinion that LaRoche asked, and was granted, this special request. Regardless of if you think it was an insane request, the White Sox agreed then they went back on their word. Going back on your word is never good business, and this will cost them. I think Williams will be eaten alive in the press and the clubhouse.
I don't really consider it going back on your word. In business, things change constantly. Mr. Williams may have thought it wasn't a big deal, and then players, coaches, etc. may have complained and therefore, he had to adjust his stance accordingly. As a GM, his responsibility is to act in the best interests of the club, no matter how unpopular the move may be.
I read one opinion piece that mirrored your assertion that things change and Williams had to adjust. The response was:
"Williams obviously didn’t know that Adam LaRoche would have his son spending all of his time with his dad in spring training, right? Wrong. He was there last year. Young LaRoche has his own locker in the clubhouse. Williams saw this last year. He was completely aware of it. If he had problem with it, the team should have addressed it as a guidance rule for ALL players during the winter months before spring training started, not abruptly deciding in the middle of spring training to tell Adam LaRoche that his son is not wanted around and he needs to “dial it back." If Williams felt that LaRoche’s son shouldn’t be around so much, and he didn’t have that figured out prior to spring training, he should have waited two weeks until spring training ended and developed a guidance rule for ALL players for next season."
http://www.chicagonow.com/news...n-town-adam-laroche/
I have to say, I agree. This didn't look to me like management adjusting, this looked like management going back on their word.
I simply do not agree. As I said previously, his job is to protect the club's interest, not an individual players. Whose to say he didn't ask Adam Laroche to "dial it back" because he stunk it up last year, and he still had $13 million invested this year for him? He may have thought it was a good idea to limit the kids' time in the clubhouse so that Laroche's focus was on what it needed to be on.
rynoattack posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I read one opinion piece that mirrored your assertion that things change and Williams had to adjust. The response was:
"Williams obviously didn’t know that Adam LaRoche would have his son spending all of his time with his dad in spring training, right? Wrong. He was there last year. Young LaRoche has his own locker in the clubhouse. Williams saw this last year. He was completely aware of it. If he had problem with it, the team should have addressed it as a guidance rule for ALL players during the winter months before spring training started, not abruptly deciding in the middle of spring training to tell Adam LaRoche that his son is not wanted around and he needs to “dial it back." If Williams felt that LaRoche’s son shouldn’t be around so much, and he didn’t have that figured out prior to spring training, he should have waited two weeks until spring training ended and developed a guidance rule for ALL players for next season."
http://www.chicagonow.com/news...n-town-adam-laroche/
I have to say, I agree. This didn't look to me like management adjusting, this looked like management going back on their word.
I simply do not agree. As I said previously, his job is to protect the club's interest, not an individual players. Whose to say he didn't ask Adam Laroche to "dial it back" because he stunk it up last year, and he still had $13 million invested this year for him? He may have thought it was a good idea to limit the kids' time in the clubhouse so that Laroche's focus was on what it needed to be on.
That may have been a valid point, but don't you think it should have been addressed PRIOR to Spring Training?
When I think about all the kids clawing and scratching to play high school and college ball, this guys decision to hang it up based on the directive to "dial it back" would seem to indicate that he's probably not clawing and scratching to reach his potential during the upcoming season. I will give him credit in the fact that he's apparently going to forego a guaranteed $13 million paycheck. I'm sure he's a nice guy and maybe he made the decision for the benefit of his family (instead of truly working something out), but the truth of the matter is he has some $70 million in career earnings which allow him to come off as some sort of saint. 99.9% of folks that went to work today don't get to make decisions like this without ruinous outcomes. Perhaps it is as simple as saying I have zero sympathy for the guy - doesn't get his cake and get to eat it also.
The good news is that some young guy making $25k year who has been scratching and clawing for years will finally get a MLB shot and some hefty money ($500K+ if he can stick on the roster). Maybe this guy can now afford to live in the same city with his family and not have to bunk with 3-4 other MiLB guys. Now there's a heartwarming story.