Question. Does Pujols not seperate his hands because he has enough power..or because he's already in a loaded position already?
Why would seperating the hands create power?
Pujols may use a non striding technique, BUT he is stridng. I think the definition of striding is rather simple. Any movement of the front foot leaving the ground. Even Bagwell had a stride.
Momemntum is created by movement. Make Pujols stay in his stance and not move his foot or transfer his weight against his frontside. Make him just turn/ rotate and hit, Revolving door, and the results wouldn't be what they currently are. All good hitters have MOVEMENT, that movement results in momentum. Momentum results in more power or an increase in the ability to drive the ball with authority. His core, line drive, would be the cause of the rotation.
Yes, I'm saying the front leg straighting is NOT ADDING ENERGY to the swing. The front leg straighting is not making the hip rotate. BUT, the hip/ core rotating IS making the leg straighten. Its a result and NOT a cause!
OK, line drive. Now CHP (a Mankin term) There is no such thing as Circular hand path as defined by Mankin. The hands working in a CHP path is AGAIN the result of proper Connection and Rotation. NO GOOD HITTER, ever cast his hands out and around.
I encourage you to study the swing knowing that the swing is driven by the core/ hips and not the legs and arms.
Momemntum is created by movement. Make Pujols stay in his stance and not move his foot or transfer his weight against his frontside. Make him just turn/ rotate and hit, Revolving door, and the results wouldn't be what they currently are. All good hitters have MOVEMENT, that movement results in momentum. Momentum results in more power or an increase in the ability to drive the ball with authority. His core, line drive, would be the cause of the rotation.
Yes, I'm saying the front leg straighting is NOT ADDING ENERGY to the swing. The front leg straighting is not making the hip rotate. BUT, the hip/ core rotating IS making the leg straighten. Its a result and NOT a cause!
OK, line drive. Now CHP (a Mankin term) There is no such thing as Circular hand path as defined by Mankin. The hands working in a CHP path is AGAIN the result of proper Connection and Rotation. NO GOOD HITTER, ever cast his hands out and around.
I encourage you to study the swing knowing that the swing is driven by the core/ hips and not the legs and arms.
Vance, I agree with you on the striding subject. Striding is not just moving the foot forward, it's generating momentum. Pujols doesn't move the foot forward much, but he generates momentum perfectly into his swing.
IMO, there is no such thing as a no-stride method. Even Paul Molitor used some momentum into his swing. Bagwell is striding (or loading, or coiling or whatever you want to call it) even though his foot goes backwards. Striding is any movement into foot plant.
The trick is generating the right amount of momentum at the point of decision. Too much, and you can't lay off the pitch easily. Not enough, and you can't get the bat started easily.
IMO, there is no such thing as a no-stride method. Even Paul Molitor used some momentum into his swing. Bagwell is striding (or loading, or coiling or whatever you want to call it) even though his foot goes backwards. Striding is any movement into foot plant.
The trick is generating the right amount of momentum at the point of decision. Too much, and you can't lay off the pitch easily. Not enough, and you can't get the bat started easily.
LevelPath19,
What I meant is why doesn't his hands go back to load up. Like when you step your hands go back as well to load up. His hands don't seem to move at all. I was wondering if it's because he's in a loaded position already.
What I meant is why doesn't his hands go back to load up. Like when you step your hands go back as well to load up. His hands don't seem to move at all. I was wondering if it's because he's in a loaded position already.
I understand, I just don't like the idea of the hands "loading". Pujols, Manny, ARod, they all have their hands back and "loaded", and just leave them there. I was just stating that loading the hands by bringing them back does not create much power. If anything is loaded during the stride, it's the middle of the body...
Thanks Vance,
The additional info was very helpful in filling in the gaps.
I agree. I think you could probably even go a step farther. This movement, weight transfer, and momentum could be created without lifting the front foot but that would not be typical.
I agree again. However I think we may have discovered one of the points that caused my confusion. I thought we were defining revolving door and swinging gate hitters solely by their axis of rotation. In other words do they revolve around the spine vs. the front hip. Both styles of rotation can be combined with a stride, movement, weight transfer, and momentum. Both styles would be much less effective if they tried to hit without these techniques.
Yes! This was omitted from your earlier explanations and I was concerned that you had excluded this source of power in the same way that you excluded the front leg. That is why I said the initial momentum alone was not enough power to hit home runs.
I suspect that if a poll was taken at the upper levels of the game (and they told the truth) you would find power hitters and hitting coaches on both sides of this issue. The problem is getting them to talk because many consider access to this kind of information a competitive advantage. For example Rudy Jaramillo is generally seen as one of the best in the business and the Rangers pay him a ton of money for his knowledge. But don’t expect to find any useful information in his video, “5 Simple Steps... A Professional Approach to Hitting”. It is a complete waste of money. Maybe he will share what he knows after he retires and isn’t under contract to a team but it sure isn’t in this video.
Yes, CHP is the result of doing other things correctly but it is not an automatic result. Lots of hitters still seem to get this last step wrong. Looking at Mankin’s teaching as a whole I don’t think he intends to teach casting but while teaching hitters to maintain a CHP and avoid a linear path he does use some exaggerated motions and descriptions that could give this impression.
Language can be a tricky thing. As you have probably noticed I try to move past what people initially say and get to the core of what they mean. I’ve enjoyed the discussion with you and hope you found some value too.
The additional info was very helpful in filling in the gaps.
quote:Originally posted by Vance34:
Pujols may use a non striding technique, BUT he is stridng. I think the definition of striding is rather simple. Any movement of the front foot leaving the ground. Even Bagwell had a stride.
I agree. I think you could probably even go a step farther. This movement, weight transfer, and momentum could be created without lifting the front foot but that would not be typical.
quote:Originally posted by Vance34:
Make him just turn/ rotate and hit, Revolving door, and the results wouldn't be what they currently are.
I agree again. However I think we may have discovered one of the points that caused my confusion. I thought we were defining revolving door and swinging gate hitters solely by their axis of rotation. In other words do they revolve around the spine vs. the front hip. Both styles of rotation can be combined with a stride, movement, weight transfer, and momentum. Both styles would be much less effective if they tried to hit without these techniques.
quote:Originally posted by Vance34:
His core would be the cause of the rotation.
Yes! This was omitted from your earlier explanations and I was concerned that you had excluded this source of power in the same way that you excluded the front leg. That is why I said the initial momentum alone was not enough power to hit home runs.
quote:Originally posted by Vance34:
Yes, I'm saying the front leg straighting is NOT ADDING ENERGY to the swing. The front leg straighting is not making the hip rotate. BUT, the hip/ core rotating IS making the leg straighten. Its a result and NOT a cause!
I suspect that if a poll was taken at the upper levels of the game (and they told the truth) you would find power hitters and hitting coaches on both sides of this issue. The problem is getting them to talk because many consider access to this kind of information a competitive advantage. For example Rudy Jaramillo is generally seen as one of the best in the business and the Rangers pay him a ton of money for his knowledge. But don’t expect to find any useful information in his video, “5 Simple Steps... A Professional Approach to Hitting”. It is a complete waste of money. Maybe he will share what he knows after he retires and isn’t under contract to a team but it sure isn’t in this video.
quote:Originally posted by Vance34:
There is no such thing as Circular hand path as defined by Mankin. The hands working in a CHP path is AGAIN the result of proper Connection and Rotation. NO GOOD HITTER, ever cast his hands out and around.
Yes, CHP is the result of doing other things correctly but it is not an automatic result. Lots of hitters still seem to get this last step wrong. Looking at Mankin’s teaching as a whole I don’t think he intends to teach casting but while teaching hitters to maintain a CHP and avoid a linear path he does use some exaggerated motions and descriptions that could give this impression.
Language can be a tricky thing. As you have probably noticed I try to move past what people initially say and get to the core of what they mean. I’ve enjoyed the discussion with you and hope you found some value too.
Nice weight shift..
good weight shift is the key to a good batting stroke
good weight shift is the key to a good batting stroke
Sure Linedrive, anytime.
No, I don't see the rotation being around the spine. I see it being around the frontside. Sorry.
The hip must open and the hip openning isn't solely a reason to say that the swing is rotational and especially from the spine. I would encourage you to slow some swings down and notice that the rotation isn't on a center of body axis when it comes to hitting. At least if your doing it correctly.
Creating the movement and momentum without lifting the foot has to deal with Timing and probably the most important aspect of hitting. Jim Edmonds Lifts his heel and keeps his toe on the ground. Some other guys also do this with 2 strikes. Its very difficult to be able to create pop, power,drive the ball without the good swivel in the lower half. By sliding the hips forward to do so really affects timing and also affects rotation if that timing isn't perfect. In the lower levels its about contact and not about being balistic or taking a good hack at the ball. Its result driven at the lower levels like little league and junior leagues and even high school and college. But in the pro game its about driving the baseball without cutting down the swing or diseleration of the barrel. By using a no stride swing you take away the most important aspects of the swing that are important to driving the ball.
I'm wondering if Clemens could throw as hard or as well as he does if we were to take his stride out of his pitching. His velocity comes from the stride and from proper torque. Its his ability to open the hips 1st and to keep the shoulders closed. If he were to not stride to a landing and if he were to turn his shoulders with his hips he would have been out of the game before he was ever in it!
Could you imagine a SS throwing to 1st without a stride and a transfer against his front leg/ frontside to give him the ability to throw the ball with max velocity?
What so many forget and don't understand in the game of baseball is its a game of movement. Not a game of NO movement. Movement allows for a player to do it easy and without effort. Take it away and the game now requires a tremndous amount of effort and energy. Remember its the guys who do it easy who continue to climb the food chain.
No, I don't see the rotation being around the spine. I see it being around the frontside. Sorry.
The hip must open and the hip openning isn't solely a reason to say that the swing is rotational and especially from the spine. I would encourage you to slow some swings down and notice that the rotation isn't on a center of body axis when it comes to hitting. At least if your doing it correctly.
Creating the movement and momentum without lifting the foot has to deal with Timing and probably the most important aspect of hitting. Jim Edmonds Lifts his heel and keeps his toe on the ground. Some other guys also do this with 2 strikes. Its very difficult to be able to create pop, power,drive the ball without the good swivel in the lower half. By sliding the hips forward to do so really affects timing and also affects rotation if that timing isn't perfect. In the lower levels its about contact and not about being balistic or taking a good hack at the ball. Its result driven at the lower levels like little league and junior leagues and even high school and college. But in the pro game its about driving the baseball without cutting down the swing or diseleration of the barrel. By using a no stride swing you take away the most important aspects of the swing that are important to driving the ball.
I'm wondering if Clemens could throw as hard or as well as he does if we were to take his stride out of his pitching. His velocity comes from the stride and from proper torque. Its his ability to open the hips 1st and to keep the shoulders closed. If he were to not stride to a landing and if he were to turn his shoulders with his hips he would have been out of the game before he was ever in it!
Could you imagine a SS throwing to 1st without a stride and a transfer against his front leg/ frontside to give him the ability to throw the ball with max velocity?
What so many forget and don't understand in the game of baseball is its a game of movement. Not a game of NO movement. Movement allows for a player to do it easy and without effort. Take it away and the game now requires a tremndous amount of effort and energy. Remember its the guys who do it easy who continue to climb the food chain.
I agree with you about the stride and timing. I just meant that the movement and weight transfer could potentially happen without lifting the front foot off the ground. But could is not the same as should. I certainly wouldn’t advocate doing it that way. The stride is one of the easiest ways to adjust timing. Without timing you are just a batting cage queen.
Throw from SS without a stride? I wouldn’t even try to field the ball without that first step to put the body in motion as the pitch is delivered.
I know we are beating this axis thing to death but did you look at the clip of Griffey that was posted earlier in the thread? Do you think his front hip moved away from the pitcher on this swing? Correct form or not, what did he do on this swing?
Throw from SS without a stride? I wouldn’t even try to field the ball without that first step to put the body in motion as the pitch is delivered.
I know we are beating this axis thing to death but did you look at the clip of Griffey that was posted earlier in the thread? Do you think his front hip moved away from the pitcher on this swing? Correct form or not, what did he do on this swing?
LD, I really am sorry That I don't see Griffey's swing happening from the center axis, as you call it. He has tremendous drive against his frontside. I see the backside rotation happening against the frontside and not from the spine.
In a good mlb swing, efficient momentum trnasfer requires dceleration of one link when the next receives the momentum.To really help sort out what you are "seeing" it helps to be familiar with motionanalysis of the swing such as by the skilltechnolgies folks (company now bought out and changed name).
Ideally the shoulders stop rotation briefly right about at contact. The hips about a frame before (30 fps). You can see this in jeter and the others. Although the hips have decelerated, the front hip continues to turn/rotate/move back into contact as the ongoing shoulder turn pulls it around, moreso the more inside the location/more hands are in/quicker player is turning on ball.
This more detailed "reality" of what is happening in the high level swing makes video landmarks like swinging gate vs revolving door somewhat inadequate since the center of rotation is shifting as the links in the kinetic chain accelerate and decelerate.
Ideally the shoulders stop rotation briefly right about at contact. The hips about a frame before (30 fps). You can see this in jeter and the others. Although the hips have decelerated, the front hip continues to turn/rotate/move back into contact as the ongoing shoulder turn pulls it around, moreso the more inside the location/more hands are in/quicker player is turning on ball.
This more detailed "reality" of what is happening in the high level swing makes video landmarks like swinging gate vs revolving door somewhat inadequate since the center of rotation is shifting as the links in the kinetic chain accelerate and decelerate.
No problem, Vance. I’m taking a second look at this whole thing with the perspective you have provided. That’s why I asked. I looked at some of the clips of other hitters you had referred to as spinners. Most of them did have a pretty exaggerated movement of the front hip away from the pitcher. I just wondered if you thought Griffey fell somewhere between them and Pujols. I’ll take your last post to be a definitive no.
Hi Tom, I was about to ask Vance if we completely hijack this thread and ran off everyone else. Then you added a new wrinkle that might help explain some of the differences we have been discussing.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
This more detailed "reality" of what is happening in the high level swing makes video landmarks like swinging gate vs revolving door somewhat inadequate since the center of rotation is shifting as the links in the kinetic chain accelerate and decelerate.
Hi Tom, I was about to ask Vance if we completely hijack this thread and ran off everyone else. Then you added a new wrinkle that might help explain some of the differences we have been discussing.
BlueDog,
Let's see if you can be evasive as usual to questions posted to you. You are saying power is not generated with the hips huh? So if all those players you keep posting kept their hips parallel with the plate they would still drive the ball.
Let's see if you can be evasive as usual to questions posted to you. You are saying power is not generated with the hips huh? So if all those players you keep posting kept their hips parallel with the plate they would still drive the ball.
quote:You are saying power is not generated with the hips huh?
Correct......
Down to one word now.
We are almost there.
LOL
We are almost there.
LOL
In attempt to keep the thread informative and not just a blast fest.
Where do you believe the power is generated? This question is for anyone who has an opinion on the question.
Where do you believe the power is generated? This question is for anyone who has an opinion on the question.
luv,
Power is generated a lot of different ways and from several sources.
Any source that helps your bat speed (and assuming you have good hand-eye coordination) is a power source.
Some skinny guys do it one way - others do it another way.
From Olerud to Stargell - from Mantle to Clemente.
There is no one answer - contrary to the **** that BlueDog has been spewing for almost 3 years now.
Does that qualify as a blast fest?
Power is generated a lot of different ways and from several sources.
Any source that helps your bat speed (and assuming you have good hand-eye coordination) is a power source.
Some skinny guys do it one way - others do it another way.
From Olerud to Stargell - from Mantle to Clemente.
There is no one answer - contrary to the **** that BlueDog has been spewing for almost 3 years now.
Does that qualify as a blast fest?
its,
i think that was acceptable. LOL
Ok now another question.
What is it all these hitters do that makes them so great? What is it that the other guys seem to be missing?
i think that was acceptable. LOL
Ok now another question.
What is it all these hitters do that makes them so great? What is it that the other guys seem to be missing?
luv,
I know this isnt a full answer but:
IMO
You can be the strongest human being in the world - and practice your swing 10,000 times a day - but the basic ingredient of every good hitter is their hand-eye coordination.
Without that - you will need to consider badminton as a potential alternate.
I know this isnt a full answer but:
IMO
You can be the strongest human being in the world - and practice your swing 10,000 times a day - but the basic ingredient of every good hitter is their hand-eye coordination.
Without that - you will need to consider badminton as a potential alternate.
quote:Where do you believe the power is generated?
Weight shift momentum into rotation is the underlying factor.
its,
I agree completely with you about strength. There are plently of bodybuilders who can't hit, but if you have the best hand-eye coordination in the world you still might not hit it more than twenty feet. Neither one of these would do you any good.
I think that is what we are all looking for. That thing that sets apart the great swings from any other. It probably isn't one thing, but a series of events that brings about the results.
I know I don't know what it is.
I agree completely with you about strength. There are plently of bodybuilders who can't hit, but if you have the best hand-eye coordination in the world you still might not hit it more than twenty feet. Neither one of these would do you any good.
I think that is what we are all looking for. That thing that sets apart the great swings from any other. It probably isn't one thing, but a series of events that brings about the results.
I know I don't know what it is.
And if you have the best weight shift into rotation with out hand-eye coordination - you hit .023
Maybe.
I was not singling out any one aspect - EXCEPT for hand-eye coordination.
As I said - a variety of sources - for a variety of players - many different in how they hit.
But one key element that you have to have to hit a baseball is hand-eye. Without it - you are done. IMO.
Maybe.
I was not singling out any one aspect - EXCEPT for hand-eye coordination.
As I said - a variety of sources - for a variety of players - many different in how they hit.
But one key element that you have to have to hit a baseball is hand-eye. Without it - you are done. IMO.
Dang, Game.....Sounds like you missed it........... 
Doggie - 7 words - you are getting verbose again.
LOL
LOL
quote:Neither one of these would do you any good.
Agreed......
A little twist of words - a dab of redirect - and nonsense - as usual.
LOL
Lets try it again - WITHOUT hand-eye coordination - and with everything else - you hit .023. Maybe.
Now - twist away.
LOL
LOL
Lets try it again - WITHOUT hand-eye coordination - and with everything else - you hit .023. Maybe.
Now - twist away.
LOL
quote:As I said - a variety of sources - for a variety of players - many different in how they hit.
Now, the way is cleared for Game's ignorance......The word "variety" does it for him..........Ahhhh, the spice of life.....
It's, the original question was regarding the power source!
quote:Originally posted by luvthegame08:
its,
i think that was acceptable. LOL
Ok now another question.
What is it all these hitters do that makes them so great? What is it that the other guys seem to be missing?
NYDad - are you just kidding with me - or have I lost the ability to read a ****** post?
How about this - Luv - sorry I answered your question with my opinion. I take it back. LOL
Have a blast folks.
quote:What is it that the other guys seem to be missing?
Variety......
quote:Lets try it again - WITHOUT hand-eye coordination - and with everything else - you hit .023. Maybe.
Is he talking about swatting mosquitoes or swinging a bat?....Anybody know????.....
It's, was just making a point that the original question that I responded to was regarding the power source and noticed that you tied hand-eye coordination into my response. Thats all... Peace. 
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:Lets try it again - WITHOUT hand-eye coordination - and with everything else - you hit .023. Maybe.
Is he talking about swatting mosquitoes or swinging a bat?....Anybody know????.....
Actually - neither.
I am talking about hitting a baseball - in real life.
Not on the video screen.
LOL
Blue Dog
As we head into July can you for once answer a post with some substance
By the way I undertand the "cute" pic beneath you ID in most cricles signifies a huge ego with no reason
As we head into July can you for once answer a post with some substance
By the way I undertand the "cute" pic beneath you ID in most cricles signifies a huge ego with no reason
TR HIT, Reading over your post, from way back, and I'd say there have been others you have given grief to. Boy have you led many many people down the wrong path, and quiet frankly since when did you JUST answer a question about baseball. Something, I might add you aren't qualified to do!
Stick to the recruiting thread.
Stick to the recruiting thread.
TRhit, it is quite obvious to anyone, and everyone, who reads your posts that you do not understand the hitting process..........You don't even give us a reason to wonder about your knowledge.....You give us no reason to believe anything other than, you are clueless.... 
Vance/Doggie
You know what is funny--my wife and I sit and watch games and discuss the hitting process of players and she keeps asking why I bother with you too--why do I waste my time ?
You know my wife knows more about hitting that all three of us combined--
You know what is funny--my wife and I sit and watch games and discuss the hitting process of players and she keeps asking why I bother with you too--why do I waste my time ?
You know my wife knows more about hitting that all three of us combined--
Being sentimental gets you no where.
