Another Nail in the Coffin?

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
I also noticed that many of the kids coming up today have lost the will to compete. They simply feel entitled to play.

And their parents have put this into their head.

The parents have "worked" (and you know what I mean by 'worked") too hard for Johnny to not be successful.

As the coach of my son's team of 13 year olds I can say with much conviction that as I much as I enjoy being on the field with my son and a few of his teammates I can not wait for the next three months to end.

I see a lot of what the OP is saying. Practice has become optional for some kids and their parents. I am not talking about the 10th or 11th kid on the roster. They always show up and work hard. I am talking about one of our top two pitchers and one of our top two hitters. It is like the attitude is that they are good enough so they make some excuse not to make the effort to come to practice.

This is not some rec team either. We are very competitive in a very competitve part of the country. Maybe it is simply the natural process where even talented kids start losing interest in one sport or the other.

I know you say myself and the other coach should simply sit them, etc but on a team where you have Dads as volunteer coaches and everyone knows everyone outside of baseball it simply is not that easy. Best to bite your tongue and accept it for what it is.

My sons HS coach....

background....HS teacher, good family man, decent but not exceptional baseball man, 3 sport coach....baseball/basketball and football....

Record- in 5 years, 2 section titles

Program- led the school in most wins by program, Most players on the honor roll , No disciplinary actions for players, Most players receiving scholarships to college baseball...

Result- Job opened up by school board and not rehired as coach....

since then, there have been 3 coaches, no section titles....and the program is now considered non competitive....but complaints from parents regarding playing time are no longer heard....

Perhaps THIS will alleviate the situation?

Forgive me but I digressed

...........I see the entitlement attitude much more in NW PA than in the WPIAL but I might be just biased because of where I'm from.

Dino,
Ive wondered if this will help or hinder....

will it help by only those committed players that will "pay to play"

or

will it hurt as those who do pay will then have a reason to complain...."I paid and my kid should play" ....

either way as budgets are cut, especially at some of my smaller schools, I see this as inevitable....

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:

will it hurt as those who do pay will then have a reason to complain...."I paid and my kid should play" ....

This is the mentality that I fear the most and it appears rampant today amongst parents of my son's peers. Just adds another layer to the political scene.

Can't imagine school board members pulling that one but, guess we've been lucky. There weren't any local school board members with athletes for kids or grand kids the first time through or since. With my youngest, he's about to play incoming freshman summer ball. As competitive as youth ball has been for he & his peers, the only question for this summer is who will make the the last 1 or 2 spots on a roster of 15. There were no surprises in Spring ball, & don't expect any next month. The funnel started tightening for most of my youngest sons group at 10 & 11. The core groups that started this Spring all work very hard on their game, there is little sense of entitlement. Our local parents who have thought its all about equal playing time VS earned playing time have moved on... either sending their kids to several of our local private schools, or now spending a lot of time at the lake.

quote:

He walked away.

He did something he loved and he did it well. why did he walk away? the same reason many coaches look at coaching in today's atmosphere. For some if they do not get what they want they make it their business to make things difficult.

Well I definitely believe it varies in different parts of the country. And yes I agree the kids are taught this by their parents...that is understood.

Maybe it's just me, and I know there are other motivations...but in MY experience the majority of the travel teams (pre high school for the most part) sprung up because the better players, and kids who wanted to play more, were looking to play more baseball beyond the short rec league seasons. Also the level of competition in some rec leagues can be a huge roller coaster.

DON'T Get me wrong...there is nothing wrong with rec ball AT ALL. I truly believe the quality of a program, any program, is ultimately determined by the volunteers and coaches who populate and drive it. Kids don't pop out of the womb knowing how to play ball.

And I know that many "Travel" teams have sprung up because a kid didn't make a certain team so Dad started one, or a number of other reasons.

Now it seems, in some cases and some areas, the "everyone plays" mentality is creeping into High School sports.

Normally I would think that the average JV roster, for example, would be say 18 or so kids.

In a school with decent talent, probably 10-12 of those roster spots are no brainers. It's the last spots that can be tricky. Different coaches have different reasonings for their picks. For example:

- The big strong kid who might be a bit clumsy. You might be able to teach him to pitch or hit to use that strength.

- The fast kid. Role player as a pinch runner, and maybe he will improve.

- The pitcher. The young kid who may not hit well or be fast, but can throw BB's. That's what a DH is for.

The list can go on.

It just seems that some parents just don't get it. And this sense of "entitlement" for lack of a better term has to come from their parents.

It's good for parents to encourage and support their children...but sometimes it just seems overboard.

There's a kid on a local JV team who didn't make the team as 8th grader. The Dad ALMOST went to the coach to talk to him about it. Luckily, for the kid, another parent talked him out of it. The kid made it this year as a 9th grader. He's played in one game. A blowout. He's had 3 at bats maybe and has never touched a ball.

Still, he is convinced, with his parents "supporting" him the entire way, that he will play Varsity baseball.

I'm not being ugly at all. And everyone can appreciate DRIVE and EFFORT. But that only goes so far if you are missing some of the physical tools.

The kid is slow. He's a bit overweight for his height, and he's short. Now that alone wouldn't be a killer, I was late bloomer and that could have been me...but I could hit and throw.

The kid has a flawed throwing motion, think pie throwing. It's never been corrected even though the parents have paid hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the years for camps and "instructors".

The kid doesn't have the power to drive the baseball...and his parents have PAID good money for him to be taught a "handsy" "hit down on the ball" swing...that just doesn't work. His bat speed is not there..I honestly believe it's a hand eye / fast twitch issue.

And while I applaud the kid for continuing to go at it...he really just assumes he's as good or better than anyone else and he will move up. The other kids don't even mess with him or joke with him, like they do all the other kids, because he REALLY believes and the kids don't know what to think.

It reminds me of an old NCO I had in the Army and what he used to say....

"Putting numbers on a donkey doesn't make it a race horse...but it makes the donkey feel FAST."

Or something to that effect.

I'm still blown away about the story a friend told me about...a MOTHER who called and then SHOWED UP at this office after he interviewed her son for a job. The kid was a college graduate. It was an engineering position. How much further can it go.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:

How much further can it go.

Helicopter parents are a rare, funny, and moody breed of humans. I wrote a Post on here some time ago about them. I wish I could find it!

[QUOTE]Normally I would think that the average JV roster, for example, would be say 18 or so kids.

In a school with decent talent, probably 10-12 of those roster spots are no brainers. It's the last spots that can be tricky. Different coaches have different reasonings for their picks. For example:

- The big strong kid who might be a bit clumsy. You might be able to teach him to pitch or hit to use that strength.

- The fast kid. Role player as a pinch runner, and maybe he will improve.

- The pitcher. The young kid who may not hit well or be fast, but can throw BB's. That's what a DH is for.

The list can go on.[QUOTE]

This year i am in betwen varsity and jv because i am working on some control issues i=on the mound but that is a different story. Where this comes into play for me is i actually got a reason as to why i would be pulled up after talking with the coach to find out where i had to work in order to get up to varsity. I don't know if it is in my area or what but the general idea that i have found with coaches is the kids who fill out those roster spots are hard workers. they will work their butt off, run into a wall for a ball, and sacrafice his body for the good of the team. The only kids who see the ME in team are those who have God- given talent and will put up numbers. i have seen kids taken to pitch but not at the 18 or 19th spot. on a roster that big, they are in the middle if not the top few picks a coach will make.

another thing i ave to say is i feel kind of sorry for the kids who have had mom and dad holding their hand the whole way so far because if their parent thinks they can talk to the varsity coach or a college coach and convince them why little billy who throws mid 70's should be starting in front of johnny who throws 90's and off speed and has a division one college comittment then they have another thing coming. the only thing i have to say i can't stand about these parents are the ones who talk badly about kids that are starting in front of their son. i feel that talk like that is just bad and won't help the good of the team at all because it is a bit hard to biuld team unity when a parent is trashing a person his or her son needs to play with on a daily basis and it give that sense of entitlement instead of telling their kid he shoudl work harder which pushes him and everyone at his position to compete for this spot.

i perpose that all children live at school during the baseball season in a dorm setting like college players who don't have mommy and daddy looking out for them and without a chance of them getting into too much trouble thus making the team better. this is all in good humor of course because we all know the money for that isn't even close to there even for the bigger schools but it would be kind of cool, wouldn't it?

Some of these posts are scary. Most of the time it depends on the backbone of your administration. If they support you, it's all good. If not, it's like walking on egg shells.

Parents can be a scary thing when they speak without opening their eyes. I had a parent who wanted to play in out program. He was a freshman and want to play on our 18U team. I said he would have to tryout for the freshman team. First, I offended him when I said tryouts. Second, he was offended by playing on the freshman team. He said he played on an 18U team and should be able to play on ours. I asked him if he ran a 6.5, threw 95 from the outfield and had power to all fields we would consider it. He laughed and said like you have guys like that. I sure do..That year I had Aaron Hicks(1st rd), Anthony Gose(2nd) and Zach Collier(Sup. pick). I talked to the kids HS coach and he said the dad was ****ed his kid didn't play varsity even though the kid was a platoon OF on the freshman team.

Coach I had a parent that requested a meeting with me because her son was not brought up to varsity for the playoff's his soph year. Her opening line was "You got another soph pitching for you that can't pitch nearly as well as my son." The kid she was talking about was a 3rd rd pick and is in the starting rotation for the Rangers now. Her son quit his Jr year because I wouldn't let him miss during the Easter break to go on a trip with his girl friend and her parents. The mom still tells people I ruined his baseball career and stole his love of the game.

There sure are a lot of threads about bad coaches on this site. And yes there are some bad coaches. But no coach can stop a player who is determined and talented enough to reach his goals in the game. But excuses will do the trick every time.

quote:

Most of the time it depends on the backbone of your administration.

Good luck with that one

quote:

Coach I had a parent that requested a meeting with me because her son was not brought up to varsity for the playoff's

coach May

I sat a kid because he was not getting the job done. I had to listen to how I ruined the kid. I had upset him. etc etc Not from the kid but from the parent. The atmosphere in coaching today is one where this has become the norm rather than the exception and some coaches say who needs the aggravation.

What is honestly sad about the whole thing is that the message imparted to these kids is not, 'Work hard and you will get your shot' but 'If you don't make something automatically just p**s and moan about it to people in the administration until they give you your way.'

I think the explosion of the different leagues and the age increase of kids from 12-18u has been a good thing. It allows kids that wouldn't have the ability to play baseball the chance to go out and play America's Pastime. But it does sometimes cause confusion with parents, especially the ones that have gotten the idea that their son is some kind of phenom. The same kids that saw their son tear it up in league play are all of a sudden shocked when they find tha their superstar isn't the automatic best player on the team.

Most parents understand and use this as a life lesson. I know I have with my son. Not good enough to make varsity, well there is your motivation to work harder and make it next year. Didn't make JV, well get off your butt and put the playstation remote down and start working on your 40 time.

Every kid has a plateau that they hit but unfortunately some parents can't see what that plateau is. A large number of kids know, and often are cool with just playing.

quote from OP: "After coaching several years of local rec ball and Little League, I definitely have seen my share of crazy things. I also noticed that many of the kids coming up today have lost the will to compete. They simply feel entitled to play. There is no drive to succeed, since many of them have the mentality that they should play just as much as the kid who puts all the extra work in. In short, it seems many of the children I came into contact with do not have the WILL to COMPETE. The competitiveness has been bred out of them. Trophies for participation. All teams making the play offs. Mandatory playing time at older age levels. No more trying out for teams when kids are younger. Maybe if a kid had gone through the process of trying out for at team, then high school sports wouldn’t come as such a shock."


I don't believe that will to compete has anything to do with the way things are run today. ie participation trophies and no cuts. I believe kid has it or he doesn't. Whether they are born with it or pick it up from their parents, I'm not sure, but if a player is driven and competitve he will not let these things distract him or use them as an excuse. I do think though that a parent, from a very early age, who continually makes excuses for their child not succeeding can hurt a child's will to compete.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I don't believe that will to compete has anything to do with the way things are run today. ie participation trophies and no cuts. I believe kid has it or he doesn't. Whether they are born with it or pick it up from their parents, I'm not sure, but if a player is driven and competitve he will not let these things distract him or use them as an excuse. I do think though that a parent, from a very early age, who continually makes excuses for their child not succeeding can hurt a child's will to compete.

I see what you are saying...and I agree...but I still think that the structure and environment of sports today doesn't help the cause.

There was no making excuses for yourself or your kid when you had to TRY OUT for the Little League Team.

what about the rec leagues that now have MULTIPLE "All Star" teams?

When I was a kid it was EXPECTED that if you weren't one of the best on the field, or your were the youngest, you wouldn't get much playing time.

When I was pulled up to Varsity as a FR, I was excited to get pulled up. I never figured I'd actually pitch much if at all. My Dad thought the same thing.

THAT has definitely changed.

I truly believe that kids today, for the most part, don't experience disappointment or failure early in life. I truly believe that experiencing this and DEALING with it help build a person in to the adult they become.

I remember not making the local team when I was YOUNG. I was upset. My Dad told me I had two options.

Sit on my butt and get fat, or work my butt off and make it the next year. It felt SO GOOD To make that team the following year.

quote:

'If you don't make something automatically just p**s and moan about it to people in the administration until they give you your way.'

having been in education for close to 40 years the above is rather accurate. also if you mention the word lawyer it speeds up the process.

Baseball is reflective of society because it truly is america's sport. Look around when you drive through town. Are there kids out playing an "unorganized" game? Or even catching with a sibling or a parent?

Why are the kids feeling so entitled? Look at the rest of their lives. They either don't have to work hard for anything or they should but they are waiting for someone else or government to do it for them. They are pretty far removed from the "work or starve" life lessons of many generations before them.

If you have raised a kid to work instead of being idle....he probably is one of the ones that shows up and doesn't expect to be handed a position and play just because.......

If you raised a kid that sits around expecting his whole life to be delivered to him, well then there you have it.

And I'm not trying to single out any generation here. I actually think the germ was planted after maybe thirty years ago and gradually we have what we have now because it's just too easy to sit around, get fat, play video games and complain when your meal isn't what you hoped.

And this cuts across all socio-economic lines. I've had rich kids on my team that were just plain lazy and I've had true gamers. The poor are the same way. Some of them realize that the only way out is hard work and they ask for no entitlement, just an opportunity. And some are so lazy they step over the filth on their way to the kitchen cupboard.

The "pay to play" baseball whether you call it showcase, tournament or travel team is only an opportunity (sometimes justified: sometimes not) for a young person to develop into a real contributor to society if he/she approaches it as such. If he/she is a predator and just looking to suck the life out of it for their own personal gain, like everything else, then the gift of opportunity is crinkled up and tossed in the dumpster. Ironically, many of them will be propped up by their parents as successes, until finally it becomes obvious they are and always were just in it for themselves.

You make some pretty good points there.

A lot falls on parents. Parents have to be involved in the direct raising of their kids. I remember coaching youth baseball and I was appalled at the number of parents that would just drive up and dump their kids at the field, even on game days. I found it funny that I needed a much better background check to teach Sunday School than I ever needed to coach the same age kids and I had much less scrutiny when I did it.

A few weeks ago I posted about our HS team falling apart due to entitled players and parents badmouthing the coaches. One of those players quit and some parents refuse to attend the games now. And you know what? The boys are winning again! They are starting to act like a real team and you can feel the fun coming back.

You can't help but admire the coach for what he's had to press through this season. You'll never be able to change the "victim" mentality of some people anyways. He's kept his focus on the hardworkers and continually strives for character building on his team.