Arm Action is King

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Chris says the body's rotation is everything when it comes to throwing and arm action is almost irrelevant since there are several types of arm action amongst mlb pitchers and they all get it done. He says that if you do what you're supposed to do with the body that the arm will whip. He believes separation is important.

Chris,

Arm Action is VERY IMPORTANT to the creation of separation. It is equally important to the whip. The upper body controls the lower. What you do with your arm will determine the quality of your separation.

Please define what you mean by arm action and give some examples of guys who exhibit...

1. Good arm action
2. Poor arm action.

1. good arm action--nolan ryan
2. poor arm action---the pain guy

quote:

Originally posted by pops:
1. good arm action--nolan ryan

I happen to love Nolan Ryan's arm action.

Other guys who I think have great arm action include...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Roger Clemens
- Randy Johnson
- Sandy Koufax
- Juan Marichal
- Danny Haren
- Roy Oswalt

However, I do not believe that these guys are not able to throw hard due to their arm action. Instead, their arm action is what allows them to survive throwing hard.

quote:

Originally posted by pops:
2. poor arm action---the pain guy

I think it's really classy of you to mock me given that I permanently damaged my shoulder when I was a kid, which is one reason why I'm so passionate about the whole injury prevention thing.

Should I call a whambulance for you?

Grow up.

Arm action is king. Good arm action allows the body to separate optimally.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Should I call a whambulance for you?

Grow up.

Arm action is king. Good arm action allows the body to separate optimally.

Please answer the question.

What exactly do you mean by "arm action"? For example, are you advocating the "M" (aka "Inverted W")? Why exactly is it so important? Also, please give some examples of guys who exhibit...

1. Good arm action
2. Poor arm action.

quote:

What you do with your arm will determine the quality of your separation.

You have me confused on this one. Arm action comes after separation, so how will what you do with your arm help separation? There are many different ways to separate and many "right" ways as well. How you separate has a huge effect on your arm action, but not visa versa. Separation is completely controlled by your arm but I dont really see what would be the point of making the statement if it's the obvious. So I guess I'm just confused on what you meant?
This list that tpg put up proves that there are many different ways to sepparate and can all generate good arm actions.
- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Roger Clemens
- Randy Johnson
- Sandy Koufax
- Juan Marichal
- Danny Haren
- Roy Oswalt

quote:

The upper body controls the lower

With decent or "correct" mechanics the lower body should control the upper body. The upper body should stay quiet and your hips should bring you through. If you were to do the opposite it would be next to impossible to stay closed and you would not be able to generate your potential velocity. Watch clips or look at still pics of the pitchers that tpg listed. You will see that their belt buckle will be facing home plate with their shoulders still closed. It is after this that the upper body comes through making it much more effortless. ( the reason why many of these guys have been doing it for so long). Here is a website with pictures of very good examples of what I am talking about. These pictures are examples for arm slot but look at the hips of many of these pitchers in what to do. Jon Lester and Casey Fossum are some of the better examples.
Great Examples

quote:

Originally posted by NHslinger:
Watch clips or look at still pics of the pitchers that tpg listed. You will see that their belt buckle will be facing home plate with their shoulders still closed.

You can't do this well without good arm action. Good arm action provides the resistance the body needs to separate.

And a LARGE mistake you and Chris make is looking at still pictures.

You will never learn cause and effect by looking at stills.

There are several types of good arm action, with some being better than others. "M" "W" "Inverted W" "Slingers" are examples.

Circling up is one of the worst. You will never reach your potential with "circle up" mechanics.

You know you're lying when you say that I don't look at video.



I have talked about the topic of arm action before in the context of this clip of Randy Johnson.

What do you think of it?

I happen to like it because I see a "W" rather than an "M" or an "Inverted W".

Also, if you go through it frame by frame you will see that his hips rotate well before his shoulders. See time stamp 2:18.

Chameleon just curious am not trying to stir anything up, but are you a pitcher or do you have a lot of pitching experience? Because what you are saying makes no sense to me again

quote:

Originally posted by NHslinger:
Watch clips or look at still pics of the pitchers that tpg listed. You will see that their belt buckle will be facing home plate with their shoulders still closed.


You can't do this well without good arm action.

Arm action comes after this. Arm action has absolutely nothing to do with your hips. A pitcher does not forcefully control what his arm does and how he moves it, and the arm does not bring the hips through. The arm of a pitcher should be loose causing a natural whip in return creating a good arm action. The hips are what are going to bring the arm through causing this arm action. If a pitchers shoulders are still closed how is arm action even a factor yet?

quote:

And a LARGE mistake you and Chris make is looking at still pictures.

You will never learn cause and effect by looking at stills.

I rarely look at pictures of pitchers in general I like to watch the game of baseball. I understand mechanics though and know that these pitchers are great examples. I do not need to see the "cause and effect" when I am pointing out a certain part of the mechanics, because they are in the propper position and I already know they are very effective.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
You know you're lying when you say that I don't look at video.



I have talked about the topic of arm action before in the context of this clip of Randy Johnson.

What do you think of it?

I happen to like it because I see a "W" rather than an "M" or an "Inverted W".

Also, if you go through it frame by frame you will see that his hips rotate well before his shoulders. See time stamp 2:18.

What do I think? Or what do I know?

I know you don't know what you're talking about.

Just how do those hips rotate before the shoulders? What is playing a HUGE role in keeping the shoulders back?

quote:

Arm action comes after this.

Pure Nonsense.

quote:

Arm action has absolutely nothing to do with your hips. A pitcher does not forcefully control what his arm does and how he moves it, and the arm does not bring the hips through.

Straw man argument.

quote:

The arm of a pitcher should be loose causing a natural whip in return creating a good arm action.

You forgot to add from the forearm down.

quote:

The hips are what are going to bring the arm through causing this arm action.

Complete nonsense.

quote:

If a pitchers shoulders are still closed how is arm action even a factor yet?

Shows a complete lack of understanding of the throwing process.

quote:

I do not need to see the "cause and effect" when I am pointing out a certain part of the mechanics, because they are in the propper position and I already know they are very effective.

ROFLMMFAO

Arm action contributes a LARGE amount to velocity. Close to 50%, although I'm open to 60-40 either way.

Go ahead and hold your arm loosey goosey, limp hanging down at your side with the ball in your hand and make it whip by using your body. DO NOT USE YOUR ARM. DO NOT FORCE ANY ARM ACTION.

ROFLAMMFAO.

Can you get it out of the infield?

You see that left arm of Johnson's go rearward?

That is Arm Action. That is before the hips open.

That action provides resistance for the hips to open against. Without a good deal of that separation is not optimal.

Shoulders/arm going rearward....hips turning open.... equals separation.

Throw a ball.....please.

There is no single worse person to listen to about throwing on the internet than thepainguy.

He is obsessed with injury prevention. No one he ever works with will reach their potential.

Risk v Reward.

Richard-

Your continued efforts to belittle Chris have become very boring. I’m asking you to stop any future direct/indirect attacks on anyone.

quote:

Arm Action is VERY IMPORTANT

I agree.

quote:

Arm Action is VERY IMPORTANT to the creation of separation.

I disagree. Arm action has zero to do with upper torso posturing

quote:

It is equally important to the whip.

Somewhat. Timing of body sequencing has more to do with creating the whip than arm action.

quote:

The upper body controls the lower.

I disagree. The upper torso and lower torso are mutually exclusive from one another. Both need to be trained to work together to become efficient. Arm action is about loading. Arm action timing is about having the arm ready to throw when the upper and lower torso’s are ready to explode.

quote:

What you do with your arm will determine the quality of your separation.

I disagree. Postures attained, and sequence timing by the upper and lower torso, determine the quality and or efficiency of separation.

There are pro examples of circle up arm action, yet the upper and lower torso postures attained prior to the hand getting up, and the ability to maintain a closed front side, allow for proper timing to create efficient hip/shoulder separation to produce very high velocities.

Then again, this IMO

And I thought you knew a little bit.

Anyone have a list of major league pitchers with bad arm action?

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Circling up is one of the worst. You will never reach your potential with "circle up" mechanics.

Please define "circle up".

Do you mean this...



...or this...



...or this...



...or this...



...or this...



I see circles in the arm action of each of these guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
There is no single worse person to listen to about throwing on the internet than thepainguy. He is obsessed with injury prevention. No one he ever works with will reach their potential. Risk v Reward.

Let's make a few things clear.

First, don't try to tar me with the Mike Marshall brush. While I think Mike Marshall's ideas are interesting (he does have a PhD and a Cy Young, which in my book means he deserves my respect), I do not currently advocate his arm action. I am not convinced that Greg Maddux's arm action isn't the way to go.

Second, I am concerned about injury prevention because I have experienced pitching-related problems personally. For one thing, I screwed up my arm due to poor mechanics. Also, the only injury one of my pitchers has experienced occurred before I knew what I was doing. He was a 10 YO who was accidentally throwing a slider. He experienced medial elbow pain after throwing just one inning.

Third, if I know so little about pitching, then why is my select team 5-0 and my rec league team 4-3? Why do we routinely beat teams that have pitchers who throw harder? The answer is that I teach my guys how to pitch. I teach them to keep the ball down, I teach them to hit their spots, and I teach them to change speeds.

Here's an offer. I believe you live in St. Louis, so why not come and see one of my 12U games? My son will pitch Monday and Saturday of next week. What you will see is a kid who typically throws at 80 percent of his maximum but who gets guys out because he has a nasty sinker and also throws a circle change, a screwball, a pronation curve, and a hard 4-Seamer. You can also see one of my other pitchers who throws in the neighborhood of 60 MPH, but who does so with mechanics that are safe.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Anyone have a list of major league pitchers with bad arm action?

Guys whose shoulders I worry about due to their (IMO poor) arm action include...

- Anthony Reyes
- Adam Wainwright
- Joel Zumaya
- Jeremy Bonderman
- Aaron Heilman

There's also Mark Prior, but his shoulder is already destroyed.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
You see that left arm of Johnson's go rearward?

That is Arm Action. That is before the hips open.

That action provides resistance for the hips to open against. Without a good deal of that separation is not optimal.

Shoulders/arm going rearward....hips turning open.... equals separation.

I have no problem with what Randy Johnson is doing, since he keeps his PAS elbow below the level of his shoulders after breaking his hands.

However, that isn't the only way to achieve separation. Roy Oswalt doesn't scap load nearly as much as Johnson does because he is a long-armer and his extended arms provide the resistance that is needed to create the separation.

Our report on Bonderman when he was in high school included a comment on his great arm action.

Does anyone have a video of him? TPG, What is it that you consider bad arm action regarding Bonderman?

Guess I might be confusing mechanics, arm stroke, arm path, arm angle and arm action. I actually see these things being seperate rather than the same thing. And I see "arm action" as being the more "natural" of all those things.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Our report on Bonderman when he was in high school included a comment on his great arm action. Does anyone have a video of him? TPG, What is it that you consider bad arm action regarding Bonderman?

I don't like his very pronounced "M". Look at how high his Pitching Arm Side (aka PAS) elbow gets relative to the level of his shoulders.





It's not as bad as Mark Prior's, but at a minimum the PAS elbow of Nolan Ryan (and Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson) never gets this high.



I believe that guys who make the "M" (aka the Inverted W) are at an increased risk of experiencing shoulder problems due to internal impingement.

I believe that making the "M" may also set them up for elbow problems.

Adam Wainwright of my Cardinals is currently having at least elbow problems. I think he's also having shoulder problems given his velocity drop. If you look at clips of him, you will see the "M".

Are there any accurate statistics available of M's vs W's = shoulder and elbow injuries?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Are there any accurate statistics available of M's vs W's = shoulder and elbow injuries?

Not yet.

Everything I have is anecdotal so far.

This is one of the things I am working on for the team I am working with. They think there may be something to the "M" versus "W" distinction, but my contact isn't yet completely convinced.

However, it is interesting to look at guys who are in the HOF. You see far more W's than M's, and the guys who make the M (e.g. Drysdale) tended to have shoulder problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
And I thought you knew a little bit.

I agree.........I know a little bit

What about most pitchers who go through the M to get to the W.
Now I know why you call yourself The Pain Guy.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
and his extended arms provide the resistance that is needed to create the separation.

Did you just say that?

Thank you.

quote:

Chameleon just curious am not trying to stir anything up, but are you a pitcher or do you have a lot of pitching experience?

And the answer to this question would be??? Your profile says you're the dad of a softball playing daughter, so I'm just curious as to your baseball background.

What does "ROFLMMFAO" mean?

quote:

Can you get it out of the infield?

quote:

Throw a ball.....please.

To whom are those comments directed and why?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
What about most pitchers who go through the M to get to the W.

It's a myth that most pitchers go through the M. Most pitchers in the HOF certainly don't. For example, there's no "M" to be seen in this clip of Nolan Ryan...



Neither do...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Randy Johnson
- Roger Clemens

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
and his extended arms provide the resistance that is needed to create the separation.

Did you just say that?

Thank you.

I have no problem saying this.

However, it doesn't take away from my idea that the separation is the primary source of a pitcher's power. By separation, I mean the hips rotating well ahead of the shoulders like this...











What I have a problem with is people who say that the "M" or the "Inverted W" are the only, or even the best, way to create separation.

tpg

quote:

Adam Wainwright of my Cardinals is currently having at least elbow problems. I think he's also having shoulder problems given his velocity drop. If you look at clips of him, you will see the "M".

The M in relation to elbow and shoulder problems is a guess. Fewer pitchers make the M (maybe 10%ish) so when a couple of them get hurt its because of this? I dont know how to archive the stats but I'll bet as many pitchers get hurt (% wise) using scap loading that doesnt involve the M as guys who do use it. If your main goal is to prevent pitchers from hurting themselves teach guys to throw submarine, they last forever.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
If your main goal is to prevent pitchers from hurting themselves teach guys to throw submarine, they last forever.

No, they tend to develop lower back problems. This is due to rapidly rotating while leaning forward.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
The M in relation to elbow and shoulder problems is a guess. Fewer pitchers make the M (maybe 10%ish) so when a couple of them get hurt its because of this? I dont know how to archive the stats but I'll bet as many pitchers get hurt (% wise) using scap loading that doesnt involve the M as guys who do use it.

It is indeed a guess, but it is an educated one based on two years of study looking for a pattern.

Don't people find it curious that virtually no long-lived, HOF-caliber pitchers make the M?

And that the exceptions prove the rule? Drysdale, Smoltz, and Martinez have all had serious arm problems.

quote:

And that the exceptions prove the rule? Drysdale, Smoltz, and Martinez have all had serious arm problems.

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And that the exceptions prove the rule? Drysdale, Smoltz, and Martinez have all had serious arm problems.

If you pitch professionally for ten plus years I dont consider your career short.

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No, they tend to develop lower back problems. This is due to rapidly rotating while leaning forward.

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Don't people find it curious that virtually no long-lived, HOF-caliber pitchers make the M?

And that the exceptions prove the rule? Drysdale, Smoltz, and Martinez have all had serious arm problems.

I am curious about that, but is it a fact? Not trying to debate, just can't remember how every HOFer threw.

And Smoltz is an absolute sure hall of famer in my estimation. Who is the best pitcher ever to do the M?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I am curious about that, but is it a fact? Not trying to debate, just can't remember how every HOFer threw.

I have studied film of as many HOFers as I can, and the percentage of guys who make the M is roughly 10 percent.

Also, I have no problem debating or having people question what I say.

It's the personal attacks I don't like.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
And Smoltz is an absolute sure hall of famer in my estimation. Who is the best pitcher ever to do the M?

Probably Smoltz or Martinez, although Smoltz's M is more pronounced.

Feller also made the M but he's kind of a special case because he had a 4-year hole in the middle of his career due to WWII. That's different than pitching for 20-straight years.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

No, they tend to develop lower back problems. This is due to rapidly rotating while leaning forward.

See Chad Bradford, for example.

tpg

quote:

I have studied film of as many HOFers as I can, and the percentage of guys who make the M is roughly 10 percent.

10%.....Thats what I estimate as the percentage of pitchers who scap load with the "M"...think about it.