Back Elbow...

Can you show me a big leaguer who does it? Also, with the back elbow down a hitter looses precious momentum. Hitters rotate with the elbow somewhat up and not down. BAD ADVICE, in my opinion.

I thought so, too. What shocked me even more than the bad advice was where it came from. I received this instruction at the University of Tennessee during a showcase camp.

Daren could be talking about the L.L. cue of Keep the elbow up. A relaxed elbow will move better in the start of the swing than a rigid elbow thats way above the shoulder. Parallel elbows can be beneficial. Jeter has somewhat parallel elbows, even though he holds his bat high. Check closely at the stance of many MLB'ers and you will see somewhat parallel elbows. The ones who aren't, will start to bring their elbows and hands in a better launching position as they are loading. Because its only in stance, adjustments can be made to have an efficient swing regardless of where the elbow is. The key with a young hitter is, Will it slow him down if his hands, elbows, arms are to far back or up? Each case is certainly different.

Really?....So I take it you know the guys at UT....Which Coach(es) do you know Blue?

I'll bet they sure could use your help huh?

Why did you delete your "none of them" post Blue?

I thought it was.....I thought if you knew them you would be more qualified to critique what was being taught at UT....But since I feel quite confident you were not at the camp to observe how or what Mr. Vaught was taught or not taught, I found it interesting you made the comment that you did....

Well jump in and help Mr. Vaught, Blue.

He came here for advice not to hear people ragging on the level of instruction he received.

What should Mr. Vaught do Blue?....Help him....

Bluedog Quote: From pages (15) of Hitting Forum entitled "Assess this Statement"

"My intent for discussing hitting here is for a parent or player to read what I have to say and decide for themselves if what I say makes sense to them...."



I just wanted to let everyone know that this is why Bluedog comes to this site and "discuss" hitting.

See I'm standing up for you Blue.

"Stay away from College camps..... "

Come To The Degoba System .... Only there can you learn to hit!...right Yoda?

Daron Vaught:

Especially among young hitters, the high elbow technique can lead them into a long, looping swing. This will leave you much more exposed to off-speed pitches. Yes, keeping your elbow lower will help you with your "palm up/palm down" position so that you can keep your bat flatter through the hitting zone. Your swing can be shorter from trigger to contact, with full acceleration at and through contact for maximum power.

You would not actually have your forearms parallel. Since both hands are on the bat, the lines of the forearms must intersect no matter where you put your elbows. But keeping your back elbow lower will help most youth hitters, including HS players.

Many MLB hitters use a high elbow approach for a few reasons. First, they do not have to guard against the high strike, as you must in HS play. Second, they are paid to hit HR's, whereas in HS play HR's play a much lesser role and most fly balls are outs. Third, and this is important to understand, most MLB guys are gifted athletes who can still generate sufficient bat speed to have a bit longer swing and still hit the best pitching in the world. Maybe you will make it to MLB some day, but most HS guys will be lucky to play in college. Most youth players just want to hit consistently at a level where a .300 hitter is just average, not exceptional.

As for good advice, look into some of Dave Hudgins' materials. He is a guy with real credentials and what he teaches works. He is not some jerk hanging out on a web site just to take pleasure in seeing how many folks' blood pressure he can raise. One of Hudgins' books directly discusses the "get your elbow up" instruction under the chapter entitled, "The Worst Advice I Have Ever Heard". This, mind you, from the guy who shepherded Mark McGuire to stardom even before the andro or whatever else got involved.

Hudgins explains that the high elbow approach is sound in theory because it is aimed at hitting the top of the ball. But he further explains how it tends to lead into a long swing that is counterproductive and thus, he recommends young players stay away from it.

We made this adjustment with my son at a young age, and later with his entire travel team. Certain people will no doubt chime in here in a moment and ridicule Hudgins' advice. I'll just tell you, it works in real life. More frequent quality contact, more power, better ability to handle off speed pitches.

It's interesting that Dave Hudgens has come up in this conversation. I know Dave very well. He is a very good guy and an even better hitting instructor along with his son Jordan. Both have worked extensively with my youngest son, whose back elbow is up, by the way. He has come about this naturally, as I always encouraged a more relaxed back elbow. But Dave has not changed my son's elbow position at all. I have talked with Dave at length about many of Blue Dog's ideas and I am sure that most of you might be surprised at how much agreement there is between the two, although the terminology is at times different. But, the fact is, despite the demeanor, much of what Blue Dog offers is very sound. The better part is that it invokes thought, which is always a good thing.

And in regard to demeanor, those taking shots ought to look a little at themselves. Even if they don't like Blue Dog's approach, responding in kind does not resolve the issue. It only makes it a lot more entertaining here than would otherwise be the case.

It sounds like the coaches are teaching to vertically stack in a rotational system. Where you start doesn't matter a whole lot. The rotational hitter often starts totally relaxed and sort of upright. The elbow (and shoulders) at load are what is important, not so much set up. This is taught to keep tension off all the muscles groups so they can fire in at initiation.

The elbow does go up in many major league swings. More importantly there is a tilt of the shoulders to the strike zone. This creates a shorter path and is the line for bat entry. The shoulders trade planes in the swing and the back shoulder goes down as the front shoulder goes up.

Don't confuse where the hitter starts with where the hitter is at load. Made that mistake before.

I can't claim to know Hudgins but the more we used his materials, the better the results. As I said above, even while decrying the "high back elbow" advice he stated that he understood and even agreed with the reasoning behind it. His concern was with how most kids ended up falling into bad habits because of it. I have to say I have seen a lot of that first hand.

Thus, it would be a mark of good coaching if he did not mess with a kid who was using the high elbow approach and having success. I've always thought that you don't mess with success, especially not just to make everyone fit into your own narrow view of what is "the right way". The only exception I would make is if you have someone doing something that could cause injury (more a concern in pitching than in hitting).

On the MLB teams where Hudgins was the hitting coach, in fact you would see many different hitting approaches. Again, I present this meaning it as a compliment to him. And I would contrast that to others who think there is in fact only "one true way" to do it.

Definitions please BD

Definitions of load and tension--please

You can never answer a question can you ??

And you wonder why I criticize you !!!!

Sorry pal you dont get it

BlueDog,

Sometimes I think if we all got in a room, we would find ourselves meaning the same thing but saying it differently. Sometimes not.

You have to have muscular tension to stand, stay standing, move, get up, or hit. What I mean by load starts with what is not load --- a bunt. The barrel is stationary in the hitting zone.

My definition of load is to create distance to the hitting area, momentum into the hitting area, etc. Many players spread it out and are in tension with their big muscle groups ready to fire. Some vertically stack and are trying to be as tension free as possible, a lot like a boxer who is taking unneccesary tension out of his stance and punch to get more efficient punching (tension).

My sources of load are...
1. Press with the bat back (some say wrap the bat). I'm talking about creating distance between the knob and the barrel. I call this two critical distances, I want the knob as close to the hitting area as possible, but the barrel as far as possible. Bonds is the master.
2. A press back with the hands. (At least it looks this way.) As the player strides his hands separate from his head, creating distance. his head goes forward and his hands stay where they were. This happens before the head locks down during the rotation stage. There needs to be at least a slight bend in the arm.
3. A turn in with the front hip, or front knee or front foot. (However, you want to view it.)
4. Tension on the inside of the back leg to get things going forward.

This describes my son pretty much. (What do I know he was drafted as a pitcher.)

My son said something last week that makes me think he listens. He said he decided that it was better to hit 3 balls 400+ feet than one 500 feet. He is going to cut down on some of his movement and distance for more frequent contact.

quote:

baseballpappa, tension in a hitter is a good thing and is needed to produce a proper load.....

Load and tension are synonomous...........

Yoda, Load & Tension are NOT synonomous!

BD

Waiting for the definitons--------------

Yoda,

If in your "opinion", no one knows how to teach hitting properly, then why even have HS or college ball at all. Why dont we all just send our kids to your mtyhical hitting school and then you can just ship them off to MLB after you "bless" them with all this "knowledge"?

Is there a chance TR HIT that you could end your banter? or are you a TROLL?

Vance

Not banter--just a request for BD to give substance and answers


As for being a Troll, history shows that Trolls do not live to my age thus I cannot be a Troll. The lifespan of a Troll is reportedly 50 years at best--also history has shown that Trolls do not fill out online profiles in a manner which gives evidence of their backgrounds and ability---Trolls use terms like "I love baseball", "prognosticator", "I teach hitting" etc

Bulldog, gives good information and from what I have read from him He has spent some time studing the swing. My opinion is that you refuse to look at the swing from an advanced or higher level of thinking of a higher level swing. To understand the swing and how it really works you must first get over the fact that you don't know it (the Swing) as well as you believe. Try rewording bulldogs comments sometimes. He does have a clue!

But your constant no substance comments towards him do not contribute to the topic. There are ways to get your point across with a hitter on here. You can send him swing clips through email and even talk live to him (a hitter) on the phone.

I'd just prefer you contribute something to the topic and use the PM for your banter.

BD

As usual your guess is totally wrong

BD


Again I say to you and your great ego that you know not of which you speak---you know absolutely nothing about me other than what you can glean from my posts and my profile

"Too busy teaching the wrong things to kids !!!!" you must be kidding--LOL

Talk about a fool on the hill !!!

Mr. Paul and Teacherman were the first to figure you out.....

Daron Vaught, you have a PM.

I don't really care about the "SHILL MAN" TEACHERMAN and are you talking about MR Paul *****, The Claymation Man ? He and I have had a number very nice gentlemanly phone conversations.

My nonsense?-- look in the mirror Mary Lou !!!

I doubt that you know any scouts that I know which makes me wonder about you but then you are a self proclaimed "PROGNOSTICATOR" , as per your miniscule profile, so you might actually know it "all", at least in your own mind!!!

TR,


What's up with Yoda? He is deleting all of his deep wisdom from the various forums I see.
Your correct, now his profile say he is a "PROGNOSTICATOR". It used to say "I teach hitting".

His "profile" says his occupation is "prognosticator"

And the "I teach hitting" is now deleted--- duh--talk about trolls !!!

Originally posted by BlueDog:

If you're hitting the ball right at people, you're not swinging properly.....


Swingbuilder,

If this guy has something to offer than is real and can help the young men that are asking for it, he would not have people on him. When however the vast majority of his posts look like the one above, he is getting exactly what he deserves. If he has something to truely contribute, then all he has to do is state it in a clear & consise manner. Most of his posts are one-liners putting down the young peopel in here as well as those who have been invovled in the game their whole lives. When asked a direct and simple question, he is constantly responding with one-liners to put down and degrade the person asking the question.

Here is why I call him Yoda.....

Posted June 21, 2006 10:30 PM
and bluedog, when i said anything else you can add, i was refering to more than a one line yoda like statement. im not luke skywalker....sorry


That was from beastball4, a young man who had submitted some videos of himself for comments about mechanical flaws. (The thread was "any advice? hitting clips" here in the hitting forum)

Yodas posts in this thread were.....

1.
"
quote:
Be sure to use the follow through.


Bad advice......
"

2.
"
quote:
In this type of 'swing', the follow through completes and maximizes the compression and expansion of the contact


It does not......
"

You were also part of that thread. Do you honestly believe that he contributed anything at all to it?

He only had one post there that was more than a single line.

He offered absolutely nothing to the young man who started the thread with a very honest & straight forward request.

If he has some real info to contribute, then state it. Or at least provide a link to place where he has put down his thoughts and advice. I doubt he can do this, because after being asked by many people here to provide drills or instructional aid for players, he never does. He just replies back with another putdown. If you believe this guy, no one associated with the game knows anything. While of course he knows it all and does not have to bother explaining it in a fashion that his vast knowledge could actually help a player.

Now he is deleteing a lot of these posts....i wonder why?

Heres a hint - (picked it up after several years of dealing with the doggie and other assorted trolls that have been sent here over the years to spew nonsense and attempt to disrupt the site).

Always quote his stuff in your response. Otherwise - he will revise it or delete it or deny it.

He's a "wacky wabbit"

LOL

BTW - the trolls that have been sent here have all failed miserably in their objective. My guess is they will continue to "strike out". LOL

quote:

Heres a hint - (picked it up after several years of dealing with the doggie and other assorted trolls that have been sent here over the years to spew nonsense and attept to disrupt the site).

Always quote his stuff in your response. Otherwise - he will revise it or delete it or deny it.

He's a "wacky wabbit"

LOL

LOL Thanks

I just find it funny that people get upset when others challenge this clown, but think its ok for him to put everyone down at will all over this forum

In many cases - the people getting upset are actually - cloned trolls.

They establish new ids - lay low for awhile - get about 100 innocous posts under their belt - then go into their defense and attack mode.

Very similar technique used on Yahoo Finance boards - where trolls are actually paid by investment firms (usually hedge funds) to spread false information - or fear - about company stocks.

You can actually find handbooks on how to be a "paid basher" - on the internet. It is nothing new - has been around for many years - and works particulalry well with "low float" (thinly capitalized stocks).

One of the many underlying tenets of the technique is to go after one (or in some cases) several of the particulars boards' most established members.

I brought this topic up a few years ago - but virtually noone believed me.

The only difference here is that the trolls really stink at what they do. LOL

Here is an excerpt from the "Basher's handbook"..
Enjoy!

A BASHERS HANDBOOK: know the enemy who wishes to steal your money! Do not underestimate a bashers influence on a stock. The Pro's are good at what they do and what they do is profit from your losses. Below is their "hand-book" so to speak. Learn from it or donate your money to those who make an organized plan to steal your money!

BASHERS DO THE FOLLOWING:
1. Be anonymous
2. Use 10% fact. 90% suggestion. The facts will lend credibility to your suggestions.
3. Let others help you learn about the stock. Build rapport and a support base before initiating your bashing routine.
4. Enter w/ humor and reply to all who reply to you.
5. Use multiple ISP's, handles and aliases.
6. Use two (2) or more aliases to simulate a discussion.
7. Do not start with an all out slam of the stock. Build to it.
8. Identify your foes (hypesters) and the boards "guru" Use them to your advantage. Lead them do not follow their lead.
9. Only bash until the tide/momentum turns. Let doubt carry it the rest of the way.
10. Give the appearance of being open minded.
11. Be bold in your statements. People follow strength.
12. Write headlines in caps with catchy statements.
13. Pour it on as your position gains momentum. Not your personality.
14. Don't worry about being labeled a "basher". Newbies won't know your history.
15. When identified put up a brief fight, then back off. Return in an hour unless your foe is a weak in reasoning powers.
16. Your goal is to limit the momentum of the run. Not to tank the company or create a plunge in the stock; be subtle and consistent.
17. Kill the dreams of profits, not the company or the stock.
18. Use questions to create critical thinking. Statements to reinforce facts.
19. DO NOT LIE, DO NOT NAME CALL and DO NOT USE PROFANITY.
20. Encourage people to call the company. 99% won't. They'll take your word for claims made. If they do call you can always find something that is inaccurate in how they report their findings.
21. Discourage people for taking the companies word for anything. Encourage them to call the company. They won't out of laziness.
22. If the companies history/PR's are negative constantly point to that. Compile a list of this data prior to beginning your efforts.
23. If the price rises blame it on the hype or the PR, temporary mass reaction, the market, etc. Anything but the stock itself.
24. If other posters share your concerns, play on that and share theirs too.
25. Always cite low volume, even when it's not.
26. Three or four aliases can dominate a board and wear down the longs.
27. Bait the hypesters into personal debates putting their focus/efforts on you and not the stock or facts. Divert their attention from facts. Show them the facts from a "different angle."
28. Promote other stocks that would-be investors can turn to instead of the one your bashing.
30. Do not fall for challenges on the "values" of what you are doing, it's a game and you are playing it with your own rules.

Emoticons - and "yoda like 5 word sentences" just aint cutting it anymore doggie.

Havent you noticed?

P.S. - IMO - You would have been much better off if I was still moderating. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Game, you, Funnyboy and TRhit have made such fools out of yourselves that hardly anyone posts here anymore.......I don't know why Julie has allowed the foolishness from you three, two, or one, but she has for some reason........You three, may be the same person.....

Sounds like you are gearing up for another whine session.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
This board is now a three ring circus.....

In ring one is TRhit trying to get attention, saying listen to me.....An unenviable task as people don't want to....

Ring two is NHFunnypersondad running around with a bullhorn telling people they have no right to their own understanding of what is posted....

Ring three is Game.....Dillusional and confused..... .....Embarrassing himself with laughable nonsense......

And, possibly they're all one person.....

Doggie,

You - and the rest of the gang sent over here - made way too many errors and got way too personal over the years. You have cyber assaulted our dads - our kids and us.

I dont know about the others - but as for me - I lost the ability to appeal to reason with you a few months ago.

I am here for you now.
Unless I get kicked off the site - or die - I am here for you. And you only.

Now that is truly the spirit of competition - wouldnt you agree?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Game, IMO, you have nothing to bring to the table...

As for reasoning, you're too dillusional to even try.....

I am bringing you to the table.

As the main course.

LOL