Beck, Beniot...Don't do drugs!

I'm not a fan of wrestling but I read this story anyway....Yikes. Gives one pause.....

This should be mandatory reading for all junior high/middle school and high school students. I don't understand why, in the drug education portion of health class, the curriculum barely touches the topic of steroids. Perhaps because some of the gym teachers (oh, sorry, I mean physical education or now the new buzzword "wellness") have taken steroids?

I once asked my son's health teacher why they don't address the issue of steroids. And then, because he coached football, asked if the coaches ever tell the kids HOW to "get bigger" without taking steroids (both of my sons told of users in the locker room) and the teacher/coach replied, "Well, we don't tell them NOT to take them..."

It's a scary story, and it's sad. I hope someone will learn from it.

And yet we are forced to hear updates on Barry Bonds getting closer to Hank Aaron's record! Yikes.

Sends an interesting message .

Guys cheat, risk their lives as well as others and we compare them to the great ball players. I guess we have to wonder about all of them.
Bonds always was a great athlete but now that he is on the watch list after his year off he is still hitting well but not like before.

Has Barry ever tested positive for Steroids? And when did he take a year off?

He's never tested positive for steroids because MLB implemented testing only a few years ago. However, he has said to a Grand Jury that he used a substance that he THOUGHT was flax seed oil, and arthritis cream.

Yeah, and I had a few drinks last night that I THOUGHT were water, but they turned out to be beer. Silly me.

He played in only 14 games in 2005, I'd consider that a year off.

MLB does not test for Human Growth Hormone.

Personally I think comparing wrestlers to baseball players is absolutely ludicrous

The two biggest mile stones being approached are Hank Aaron's HR record by Bonds and Warren Spahn's 363 by Roger Clemons. Everyone focuses on Bonds cheating but where is the attention on Clemon's changed body type over the same period and what this
may say about him and steroids, HGH, etc?
I don't think any mile stone in this era can be acknowledged without a thorough look at the player involved with an eye towards did he potentially cheat or not. Some may say this approach is unfair to the players but the players have no one to blame but themselves.

The problem with the cheaters is this. If pro wrestlers want to kill themselves with steroids, so be it.

In baseball, to compete on an even playing field, it pressures people who don't want to ruin their health to do things they otherwise might not. I think the records, while important, are secondary to this potential corruption of innocent people.

The wresting article shows what devastation steroids can cause people at a young age. Heart attacks in the 30's and 40's, as well as other violent behavior attributed to the drug use. I feel for those guys, as well. But there are a lot of our sons who are driven to succeed in baseball, and we don't want them to be tempted to risk their health.

Guys like Bonds, Sosa, McGuire et al need to be sanctioned in some way. I know it hasn't been proven in a court of law that they cheated, but it has in the court of public opinion. In some way, maybe by keeping them out of the Hall, kids should be discouraged from following their example.

bballdad1954


Do you reside in this country ?? If there is no proof then there can be no sanction or punishment unless they have changed the laws---please keep that in mind---the court of public opinion means squat---it proves nothing other than small minds are at work

What Big Mac was taking was legal at the time he used it---it also was one of the few times he played a full season---what he was taking curbed his back problems which he had for years---even in his rookie year he was hurt at the end of the year and he still hit 49 dingers

Proof is only required in a court of law. I was not talking about taking property or possesion, which requires the legal system. To get in the Hall of Fame requires sports writer, not a jury of your peers.

You go further. You say what McGuire did was good. It helped him and his back. What McGuire admitted to was Creatine. He used steroids. While not banned by baseball, they are banned by the laws of the country. He failed to testify in front of Congress. I think my stance is not inconsistent with the laws of the land or the Constitution.

bballdad


what he was using was able to be purchased over the counter at that time?


Creatine?/// where did you get that ?--creatine is still legal

I wish people such as yourself would cease trying to convict people on the internet when you truly have no idea of the entire picture---by the way the laws of this country (Constitution) say you are innocent until proven gulity

One other thing many steroids are not banned by law--theybe gotten by prescription

I am so glad a consultant to youth baseball supports steroid use. Thank goodness you are part of a small minority.

Again, innocent until proven guilty is only in a court of law. People are free to express their opinions about guilt or innocence, and they do it all day long. Try watching a cable TV news ahow.

Cetainly there are steroids that are legal. Prendazone is used for many illnesses. There are steroidal inhalers for asthma. That has nothing to do with the use of steroids to enhance sports performance. And steroids prescribed by doctors have adverse side affects. Just because they are given by a doctor or legal doesn't make them good for healthy people to use.

I am not going to answer any more of your posts. You make no sense to me.

Creatine, while it may be bad for a persons health (there's still studies on it) is not a steriod, but rather concentrated protein. I believe McGwire admitted to using androstenedione, which is a steriod.

quote:

Originally posted by frankdog8:
Creatine, while it may be bad for a persons health (there's still studies on it) is not a steriod, but rather concentrated protein. I believe McGwire admitted to using androstenedione, which is a steriod.

Yes, and andro was legal at the time. He never tried to hide it. Therefore, he violated neither the law of the land nor baseball's rules. bballdad1954, your example is inconsistent with the law when you assume that pleading the 5th amendment is against a person's rights. Pleading the 5th amendment in no way is to be considered an admission of guilt. Not to give you a history lesson but that amendment was placed there by our founding fathers for a reason.

What Beniot was doing, along with many others was abusing these drugs to remain in "the game." What is worse is that he was, according to reports, injecting his 7 year old son. Sad. VERY SAD! I hope all of learn from this and keep that family in our prayers.

bballdad

Where did I say I support the use of steroids?

For a guy who doesnt know creatine from steroids w you sure are a great expert but learn how to read first---what I said was that he was using a legal, at the time substance

Like I said before it is people like you who convict innocent people just on public opinion---that to me is SICK

Coach


In all fairness to Benoit his son was purportedly afflicted with dwarfism and growth hormone shots are not uncommon for them

Coach,

As a St Louis fan, I understand you wanting to defend McGuire. I understand taking the 5th. What you and TR don't understand is the difference between what a court is allowedto do, and what people are allowed to do. A court cannot infer guilt when someone takes the 5th. Citizens can. When someone takes the 5th, they do so because they have a right not to incrininate themselves. It is a protection against government cohersion and torture. McGuire took the 5th because he didn't want to admit what he obviously did. If you want to pretend he didn't, it is fine with me. It is still not a good example for young ball players who want to make it in the big leagues.

I never said Creatine was a steroid. I said he was found using creatine, but I believe he also used steroids. Re-read the post.

Please look at the evidence. Look at his body changes from when he broke in as an Oakland A till when he was a Cardinal. Those changes aren't from creatine and andro.

bballdad

Like I said before your thinking is scary---you want to convict people on what you believe not what the facts are---andro was legal when he used it===thus he broke no laws---I am not saying it is right or wrong but it was LEGAL at the time


Do you organize the lynch mobs in your North Suburbs wherever they may be ???==


There is due process you know


By the way creatine was and is still legal in our country of freedom and rights

BBALLDAD....DON'T CONTRADICT OR INTERRUPT tr @ ANY TIME!

In his world...only he can be right!

Interesting discussion, I think someone is being sensitive. Didn't TRhit or Coach refer to the Big Mac Attack as family friend? Court of public opinion is made up of small minds? Thats strong. I can tell you my little mind has them guilty as ****. Pitchers included. Testimony, 5th amendenments, depending on what the definition of is is, if being a MLer requires one to chemically enhance one's self beyond 8 hours of sleep and a bowl of Wheaties in order to play, then i have no desire to even have my kid dream of reaching that level. MY OPIONION.

I think the records are all for ****, here is a link to great article penned by an amature cyclist and reporter who decided to monitor the effects of how these changes effect performance. Read it and then think about how who was the Oriole CF who hit like 92 homeruns after hitting 7 season prior. Too bad for the legit player, right Frank Thomas, btw, not a personal family friend.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

They are as innocent as O J SIMPSON.

Nailed in civil court. Just different burdens of proof.

Freedom comes with a price and unfortuately it allows killers, drug addicts and child molesters to run loose in our society.

Just for the record, not wanting someone in the Hall of Fame is not organizing a lynch mob. Give me a break.

For the record, I mentioned that I know/taught Big Mac's wife Stephanie. I have stated so in almost every response to this issue so I'm not hiding anything. Yes, I am a Cardinal fan. I would make the same argument for any other player that did a legal activity at the time and was subsequently condemned. I challenge any poster to find any posts on this site where I've allowed my loyalty to the Cardinals to impare my judgement on any issue including the Cubs/Cardinals rivalry.

You mention the court of public opinion. I'm glad I will never have to be held to that standard. I prefer the law! Public opinion is so vague and blows like the wind. In reality it doesn't have merit. Each of us would disagree on so many different issues. What is left then is to discuss the known facts. McGuire took Andro. It was legal at that time. I would venture to say many MLB players were also using that very same legal product. MLB didn't have any rules against it. When they did impliment a rule against it, McGuire retired.

Regarding the young son and human growth hormone, the media has reported that Benoit's opinion was that his 7 year old son was not growing at a normal rate. That, at least from what I've read, has not been medically proven. JMHO!

Before any of my other words/intentions/... get misconstrued, I don't want my athletes using anything but good hard work in the weight room and plyometrics to improve their performance. I have known of one of my kids who went on the college and was starting to use steriods. I got in my car and drove overnight to confront him. That's where I stand. (Side note - I told him that I was going to kick his butt. His response, was that I could no longer do that = steriods. LOL!)

McGwire quit when the going got tough...not surprising he wimped out to the MAX in front of Congress.

If he only took andro,then why clam up and cry?

We should expect more from our heroes.

At least Sammy gave a weak a$$ answer that baseball been berry berry good to him!

Sox

If you have a baseball player as a hero you have a problem---I had one hero in my life and that was my DAD---my fav player was Willie Mays but he was not my hero


As I noted above we are not discussing right or wrong here we are discussing conviction without proof---it is truly scary when supposed intelligent minds convict people without proof and make a decision based on what they read or here

Sorry to say, but there is NO EXCUSING what MLB, The Players and the media (can you spell ESPN) the allowance of steroids in the game.

First and worst is the influence these people have on aspiring young players who begin to believe they have to use to compete.

Second is the joke it made of the game and it's history.

Third is the apparent diminishing of the accomplishments of clean players playing now who were pretty **** good players but are generally ignored because their numbers are not as ridiculous as thsoe as the cheaters. Yes, cheaters within or without the law.

Fourth is they probably beat out a clean player from playing MLB.

I think we are discussing right or wrong.

Tr,

For the last time....Conviction and proof are legal terms for a court of law.

Soxnole, as usual, is right on. When he had the chance to tell the truth under oath, he declined. Many intelligent people would come to the conclusion he took steroids. No, it is not in a court of law. But he is a high profile guy, and he did the wrong things. Deal with it. Someone you are for didn't do the right thing. It is out there. We are talking about right and wrong. McGuire set the wrong example and I feel there should be cosequences. Not giving him an honor like the Hall is a reasonable sanction.

Ok, so who is on your list of who doesn't get in? Bonds? Clements? Sosa? Also, how many used before this was ever an issue? I know for a fact that this abuse goes back to the 60s in football. Believe me I have a close friend and former pro football player suffering now. Are we to believe that noone in baseball took the same? Can anyone say GREENIES? What about drugs in general. Of course Ball Four shed some light on some. Throw them out as well. Then again, are you wanting to apply your standard to only a few?

Coach,

You make an excellent point. You really don't know who cheated and who didn't. I have a buddy whose father is in the Packer Hall of Fame and he talks about one of the other great Lombardi Packers who used amphetamines and that player is in the Football all of Fame.

I don't think keeping a few out would be "fair". Bonds and Sosa would be on my list. I don't think you have to be fair. I think you have to make a point to young people. I also don't think you have to be fair to cheaters.

I know this isn't the way courts work. If things aren't proven, how can you "punish" people. But, the Hall is a privilege, not a right, and there is an important point to be made. My solution has the problems you point out, but I still think it is the way to go. I think reasonable people can differ.

Guys, I'd just like to say that (with all due respect) none of you know near anything about steroids, or protein for that matter. Diet, and proper weight training pack on size, steroids do increase it, but not so much. People can get stronger than Bonds, naturally, have done it before and will again. McGwire took an over the counter supplement known as 6-OXO made by Ergopharm, is still on the market if you want to do a google search. Legal in the US and legal used in the MLB. Also, creatine is in fact not "concentrated protein", but amino acid which superhydrates the muscle and aids the krebs cycle, effectively increasing muscular exertion, which leads to broken down muscle fibers and protein synthesis to repair it. Perfectly healthy for all lifters, from young to old, as long as there is no underlying kidney issues. Dehydration etc. can be caused by not drinking enough water, as they water hydrating muscles comes from your body, you need more daily. I think this is the reason for its "seriousness" and negative air to the uninformed. Just thought I'd set things straight to aid the conversation going here. FTR, many steroid users are also healthier than the average -- yes, that means you sitting at your computers -- because of the close monitor they keep on their health. Depending on the compound, 6 months later they may show no signs except for increased muscle mass. Steroid abuse, such as that of Benoit, clearly shows he either used incorrectly (unlikely) or this has been blown way out of proportion. The "roid rage" publicized by the media is not only inaccurate, its is impossible! Rage is just that, anger. Methodical killing over 2 days is certainly not rage.

Another point I'd like to make. On his roof in a cage, Bonds can be seen hitting off a tee for hours, steroids haven't built his swing, and steroids aren't the main reason he hits home runs. The man has one of the sweetest swings in baseball of all time.

Let's notify the World Olympic Commitee, World Track and Field, World Cycling, the NFL, Baseball and the US Congress. Steroids are not that dangerous. As a matter of fact, people that use them correctly monitor their health, and are actually healthier. Besides, there are so many other good ways to build muscle mass without steroids. LHP should have testified before Congress, and all this controversy would have been avoided. Barry Bond's head got bigger because he practices on his roof. The clear and the cream were....I am not sure about that, but LHP assures me that was OK too.

By the way, roid rage is a myth, all those wrestlers that died young just needed the right supervision, and Mary had a little lamb.

Besides, who wants to watch a bunch of Androids play the games?

I prefer to watch real human beings.

LHP-

I may be reading into your post wrong, but it sounds to me your downplaying the negative side effects of steroids. Are you suggesting that baseball should allow its players to use steroids, as you say, "correctly?" We could sit here for hours, which will probably end of happening, and argue over whether Bonds would've been the hitter he was without steroids, but it scares me when someone seems to suggest these drugs can be used by an athlete with a healthy lifestyle. Look at all these former users developing heart problems later in life. I agree that "roid rage" has not been proven, but are you telling me its just coincidence these users develop violent behavior? Taylor Hooten, Kyle Braid, Chris Benoit, the list could go on. I may not know anything about steroids, but I do know that if I ever have kids I would never ever let them near that stuff.

bballdad

I like how you just arbitrarily convict people with your own tninking---I am glad you are not living in my neighborhood==your thinking is totally contrary to what our country stands for---none of the players you mention have been convicted or proven to be users but your "LYNCH MOB MENTALITY" again comes to the forefront adn you convict them in your own court of "law"

That is really scary---the newspapers run a story--a book is written-- and they are all guilty--- you want to believe Conseco but it is ok for him to attempt to run down is wife on a m Miami street


I have to wonder !!!!

TR,

I am done with you. I have a right to my opinion. It can be formed from any sources I chose. I have never read anything by Conseco, and have not mentioned him in any posts. I don't believe he should have run his wife down. I don't know what that has to do with anything on this board.

I will say this again, maybe it will sink in. I cannot "convict" anyone. This is not a court. Courts have rules and procedures to protect the innocent. I can however express my opinion on widley reported stories, use my own eyes and life experiences, formulate opinions and believe that McGuire used illegal steroids. Many people, perhaps even a majority agree with me. And I can say it or write it any time I want. 1st Ammendment and all that.

I have no people with torches behind me and I have no rope. Lynching was a serious thing in this country, and I would throw it around like you do. This forum is to express opinions on baseball related matters that affect young high school ball players. Steroids is a major issue. Players like McGuire set a poor exaample, and I have opinions about it. The End.

quote:

your thinking is totally contrary to what our country stands for

Nope, it's exactly what this country stands for, we are allowed to condemn someone in our own minds, if we chose to do so, and I have.

I don't need a conviction in a court of law, to tell me what my own eyes have seen, watching games on TV and seeing these giants in person. I can formulate my own opinions, and don't care if anyone is behind me.

LHP: Anyone who has stepped in a weight room started a weight training program knows that yes with proper diet, technique, etc. you can change your body and get strong and fit and lean. However once you turn 40, it aint so easy to maintain or even make gains. Steriods improve recovery time, which means you can work more often and harder than the other guy. HGH improves eyesight. So hmm, a great swing, more acute eyesight, quicker reflexes, added power, i personally think the most infamouse home run hitter of all time had some help compared to HA. Some people call that progress, but would he have gotten there without the help? Sad part is we will never know. It just doesnt seem fair. In the end, i think that people are ultimetly judged on how fair and how they treat their fellow man.