Before or after the draft?

You don't shake hands with anyone.

My suggestion, you can listen to their advice, ask questions and pick their brains if you want and sort it all out. Trust is a very important factor and also experience. Also, if someone feels the need to gain your trust, don't let it be by telling you or your son how much better they are than the next guy. Where and if your HS son is drafted is determined by his talent and willingness to sign and the scout who beleives in him, that's about it in a nutshell.

You can contact your MLB area scout and he will gladly go over all of your questions, without you having to make a commitment to anyone.

Make it your business to find out first 10 slots and signing bonus if this is a concern (money). Yo can do that on your own.

JMO.

If your son decides he wants to turn pro and you feel the need for an agent, then make the decision either before or after. Do not sign anything with anyone.

Good questions! I asked these same ones a year ago & we chose not to use one.

If you are going pretty high up in the draft (top 3/4 rounds) maybe it would be smart to get one.

However, many teams are going to stick to "slot" money after they draft you so there isn't much need for an advisor because they probably aren't going to get you any more money. If you sign over slot, you are probably not playing the summer after the draft.

If you want to avoid some of the direct talking with scouts and minimize all the phone calls, "what will you sign for?" then an agent might help shield you from that to a degree. We did it all on our own.

If I was getting one, I would probably get one before the draft. Do some homework and get someone who knows what they are doing and someone who will represent your best interests. Know what you are getting into before hand.

First:

I agree with NC42dad. I will take it a step further. In my opinion there is ABSOLUTELY no reason (except one that I will explain below) to retain the services of an advisor. On a side note remember to always distinguish an advisor from an agent because an advisor is not formally reatined on your behalf to do anything. Hence your son's ability to remain eligible. On the other hand, if you refer to this individual as an agent an inference can be made, by a hall monitor like individual that your son has retained the services of someone for purposes of playing professional baseball, and therefore lose eligibilty status.

Second:
I will answer your third question first. As to whether picking an advisor before the draft really helps, that too depends. In 2005 Yankees 8th round pick received $800,000. He was also heavily recuited for basketball. Part of the reason he slipped so far down was because he committed to play basketball for Georgia Tech. For a paltry $800,00 Jackson agreed to forego college and basketball. An advisor may assist if your son falls into one of these categories: 1) one of the most highly sought after players in the country; 2) a two sport star who committed to play the alternate sport at said college, but is "open" to reconsideration; or 3)is definitely foing in the first three-five rounds.

Third:
With that said, the use of an advisor prior to the draft is more aesthetic (commands attention) than anything else. The problem is it may turn off some college coaches because I believe that whether an agent or advisor both will inevitably stir up some strong emotions.

Fourth:
NEVER, and I mean NEVER shake hands with an Advisor as you will need to wash your right hand will be more oily than if doused your hair with 4 extra large dots of bryllcream (remember a little dot will do ya). In all seriousness, if you chose an advisor make sure you know his reputaion among the teams. There are some agents who are known for getting the job done quick. However, quick could mean at a loss for your son. There may be some agents who are intense negotiators. In those instances the teams may back off. In any event these are some ideas to consider. And don't be afraid to ask these questions directly to the advisor. In fact, whichever agent/advisor squirms least when answering the tough questions, that is who you pick.

1st of all....what do you think an advisor is? He is an agent. Unless of course you mean the HS coach or the school counselor or the neighbor that played 20 years ago or a friend of the family or granddad or the old Little League coach. Anyone that calls or knocks on the door and says they are an advisor only calls himself that because it is an NCAA violation to retain an agent.....

so understand ADVISOR = AGENT in the true sense of the word.

2nd....that Yankee's pick was Austin Jackson. Who did have a scholarship to Georgia Tech to play basketball. He was a very toolsy HS player. Very athletic and would have gone in the draft much higher if it had not been for the basketball scholarship (the 800 grand had nothing to do with an agent) The Yankee's are the only club who would have paid him that and taken that chance on him. They have picked many like him and paid premium amounts as well. Most don't pan out but ever so often one will. Thats the price you pay for the risk. Again, had nothing to do with an advisor/ agent.

Also, keep in mind that his bonus is being paid over 5 years and that if he quits baseball in that 5 year period he will have to pay back a large portion of the bonus and he will lose the rights to the remaining amount owed him....

But he can keep his own motel room and the parent plane tickets

3rd and last. It is a violation to enter into an agreement with an advisor/ agent and retain your college elgibility. Understand this will become a major issue in college baseball in the next few years.

My question to you AL MA 08 is this. Have any scouts done a home visit? Actually sat down with you and your son. Did he sign in the early signing period and is he a lefthanded pitcher?

Websters defines AGENT as "one that acts or exerts power."

Webster's defines ADVISOR: "a: to give advice to : counsel <advise her to try a drier climate> b: caution warn <advise them of the consequences> c: recommend <advise prudence>.

There are some who forgo college in order to enter the draft, and then there is swingbuilder who seems to have avoided college, maybe for reasons beyond his control..I think Swingbuilder may fall into the ladder.

Its sadly amusing how some people even in agremeent disagree.

for someone who knows it all, you sure don't know how to let go.

I have a masters degree.

I have never met or know of an advisor who doesn't know the family except that he came calling because someone had some talent or gives advise for FREE.

An advisor = AGENT. The advisor wants something in return for his advice and it surely isn't a room by himself or a plane ticket for his parents. He wants CASH for giving his advise so once that player becomes drafted THE RULES ALL CHANGE and then they CHANGE AGAIN if he signs.

Advisor = AGENT

quote:

Originally posted by newagent:
There are some who forgo college in order to enter the draft, and then there is swingbuilder who seems to have avoided college, maybe for reasons beyond his control..I think Swingbuilder may fall into the ladder.

Posted by TPM: You don't shake hands with anyone.

REALLY! I thought you could NOT sign any kind of agreements with an advisor, but could ask/tell one that you would like to have their help and advice. I figured this amounts to a “gentlemen’s agreement”. Is this not how its done? I certainly do not want to put any question into his college eligibility.

We have been talking to scouts and they keep asking "do you have an advisor". There is a question about advisors on most all the questionnaires. It certainly seems they expect you to have one. I thought it would be good to have someone else to talk to as well. Some of the things I would want to talk about would feel wierd talking to the person I could end up in negotiations with. That seems like it would be putting all your cards on the table before you know what the game is.

newagent: Does "formally" mean a writtten agreement? That is what I thought.

Sorry swingbuilder, but I do not want to get into any specific details of our case here. I do not think it matters for my question, except to say that it looks like he could be in the first 10 rounds. Wich one depends on how he does this year at school and staying healthy, and as TPM points out "signability".

Anyway , I certainly appriciate the input from everyone. Some things to consider and good advice to heed.

If a player is sure he wants to go to college even if drafted I don't see the need for an "advisor". But if a player plans on signing I think its a good idea to have one before the draft.

I think its good to know what agents might want. Some charge between 3 to 5%, some want % of whole bonus, or % above slot or % above $100,000.
Some want a % of card deals etc,some don't.
Some may not want any fees until you reach the majors.
Some only want a % above league min.
So as TPM says do your homework.

Remember agents can be fired at any time

baseball contracts are harder to understand than the greek alphabet. you need to do your homework on many things, the college plan. you won't necesarily get it if you don't ask. escalation bonus's,not automatic either. slot money,most records only show to the 10th round .after that it can run the gamit.but not usualy life changing money.but when you add the above to it it adds value. and some scouts will tell you about these things,some won't.
an advisor can be your lawyer,friend etc. but you need to be informed as to what your options are. just like buying any big ticket item.look around ,ask around,be informed. you'll here lots of things from lots of people. but it's your son's future be prepared.
on the up side it's really cool when other people come to the house and talk about your kid. enjoy the journey.

AL MA 08

NCAA Rule 12.3.1 is enitled to "USE OF AGENTS"

According to the rule: "An individual shall be ineligible for participation in an intercollegiate sport if he or she has ever agreed (orally or in writing) to be represented by n agent for the purpose of marketing his or her athletics ability or reputation in that sport. Further, an agency contract not specifically limited in writing to a sport or particular sports shall be deemed applicable to all sports, and the individual shall be ineligible to participate in any sport.

TWO KEY POINTS:

1. The rule only applies to Agents not advisors (Hence Agent v. Advisor).

2. It applies to handshakes (**** agreement) and contracts (written).

What I am beginning to notice is that what is written is not necessarily what is enforced.

You may want to go to the NCAA website. Specifically you may want to download Bylaw 12 AMATUERISM and Article 13 RECRUITING. I assure you it was an eye opening experience for me.

As an interesting aside, I am intrigues as to how they prove the existence of an **** contract when the advisor/agent is an attorney. This is because any communication between the athlete and athlete-agent/advisor/attorney/ is privileged. Therefore, the attorney is prohibted from revealing the contents. In that scenario the athlete agent/advisor/attorney is placed in quite the predicament. Either reveal the confidential communication and subject himself/herself to disciplinary action by the State Bar or invoke the privilege, have the NCAA declare his client ineliginle and subject himself to a possible malpractice suit whereby the damages could exceed a million dollars, the client could show that the inelgibilty effect his draft staus and signing bonus.

Of course there is an easy way to avoid the above mentioned conondrum...error on the side of caution. ML MA, njbb, and 20dad I wish you and your family the best of luck.

newagent,
I think that is what swingbuilder was trying to express.
As far as why the college coaches having complaints about advisor/agents for the HS player, they work hard to sign a player and since he is not on campus, they know that they have no control over the situation, that the recruit may or may not be in a situation where he is being swayed or not to sign or go to college by an advisor/agent. They cannot stop a scout from coming into your home to speak to your son, but want some control over the advisor/agent. When the player is in college, they can somewhat control the entire situation. I found son's coaches had no issue with advisor/agents that they felt would advise their player for the right reasons to go pro or remain in college. In one situation I am aware of, they felt that one player who was in somewhat of an unusual situation (a senior with no eligibility left) was getting advice from the wrong person. He never made any commitment and the day after he was drafted he got a call from an agency that had never previously contacted him but with a good solid reputation with players on the 40 man and registered with MLB. Actually, son's coach was very helpful in giving advice to those who wanted it.

I think that maybe is why they ask that question on the questionaire about advisors. Swingbuilder can elaborate on that part.

An attorney not registered as an agent can read the contract and speak on the players behalf. The milb contract is not that hard to read and understand and yes become familiar with the college scholarship plan. This is important to discuss with the scout when he meets with your son. I have never heard of anyone not being offered the college scholarship, sometimes may not be what they want, but never offered. As far as bonus payout, teams prefer to stretch it out as much as they can, their reasons I was told, they are somewhat cash conscious mid season and for the player tax wise it's in their best interest. The only thing you might negotiate is when you want the bonus.
I admit it is very confusing, you read before the draft that so and so is being advised by so and so. You see players with agents at the Cape in restaurants, gives the wrong impression as to what is going on.
My only complaint is against advisor/agents, for lower picks who receive no money, someone is waiting in the wings (before and after the draft) to tell him that he can get them more $$ (or other things)if they want to sign and takes money for that advice. Someone told me once that there are some who prey on the lower round drafted guys hoping that someday they might move ahead and convince them that they were the only one that had faith in him.

JMO.

I have been to the NCAA site and have read through some of this, but it was way before this point in our progress towards that MLB goal. I did not remember the "agreed orally" part. That is an eye opener for you all right. Sends a clear message, for what ever reason, if they (NCAA) wanted to make an issue of it with you they certainly could.

I can safely say now, No "advisors" will set foot in my house, nothing personal. I don't want to give any impression to anyone that we have a deal with anyone.

Thanks for the post newagent and I will be going back to the NCAA web site to refreash myself with these items at length.

No one is suggesting that you should not to talk to anyone. Just be carefull who you speak with and don't let anyone force you or your son into a decision (the handshake).

For example, you may have thought that the handshake was the right thing to do, under your assumption that was ok, you are learning. If an advisor/agent gave that impression to you that was the proper thing to do, it was wrong.

before you handcuff yourself. remember most people in the business of getting kids to the next level,(and thats what an advisor does).aren't going to do anything to jepordize a kid,most. just be aware. and you always use the word advisor,that way there is no misunderstanding. don't be gun shy just be aware.

Agents act improperly because they can. If an insitutution acts improperly they are subject to meaningful sanctions by the NCAA ie; scholarship cuts, suspension from play, heavy fines, irritating commentary by Jim Rome etc...If an agent violates the NCAA rules no meaningful sanctions exist. An agent's though is: What is the NCAA going to do to me? Tell me to stop, banish me, deny me access to the campus. Although agents are regulated by statutes, they are rarely enforced. Enforcing athlete agent regulations is not a top priority of our state or federal government.

Do agents engaged in improper communications with athletes? Yes.

Are colleges aware that this goes on? Yes

Is it right? No

So why do they do it? Because in our society, we frown upon whistleblowers. And since everybody does it...

Many agents must chose between being unethical and being unemployed. As someone with first hand experience, I continuously choose the ladder.

With advisors, I always think of the sad story of Matt Harrington.

Between 2000 and 2004, Harrington, a top prospect coming out of high school, was chosen in all five drafts, but never signed a contract despite receiving offers of up to $4 million.

You always hear about Tommy Tanzer being the villian but Scott Boras also failed the family and Matt by not inserting logic into Matt's family the 2nd time he was drafted. With a 8 mph decrease in speed, he wasn't going to get that 4 million back. Not accepting the deal the 3rd time from the Rays was just absurd.

I had a chance to meet Harrington in 2006 when he was with the Fort Worth Cats when they came thru to Pensacola.

He still had the attitude I just want to play baseball.

You can't blame the agents, agents work for the player not the other way around. At some point the player has to take responsiblity for their career.
Maybe the agents were following the players directions.

Newagent have you ever had a child drafted out of High school?

Have you ever represented a player who was drafted out of high school?

Have you ever advised a family who had a son that was drawing interest from pro scouts?

AL MA 08- The purpose of an advisor is that to advise. I see no harm in developing a relationship with an individual who can help steer you through a complicated and stressful time. Further, the same advisor can be helpful throughout the college years for future drafts.

Most college coaches have no problem whatsoever with advisors. They have dealt with them before and are not affected at all.

We found the services of an advisor to be invaluable prior to the draft and were extremely glad that we had developed a close personal relationship with them. My son has since switched agents, but I still personally have a relationship with the original advisor.

As with anything in life there are good advisors and bad advisors. Do your homework. Interview numerous people and talk to clients and former clients. Always be in control of your own situation. There are a lot of Johnny come lately's in the sports representation arena, make sure the person is reputable and established. GM's and scouting directors don't want to be dealing with some hack off the street who thinks he knows the system better than they do.

Thought I would add...

During the MLB Winter Meetings in Nashville...

Scouting Directors and DI coaches had a lengthy meeting. One of the main topics was... What do we do about agent/advisors?

Not making judgement here, but one could logically think there must be a problem in order for this to become a topic at that meeting.

Just something to think about, without getting into what some of the problems are.

PG,
If you check back previous posts on other topic in this area, swingbuilder had that discussion with newagent. It began because newagent claims college coaches don't like agents. SB was pointing out one of the reasons why.
My understanding is that agents are telling coaches their "potential" clients want to play other positions that they might be more suitable for the draft. Coaches and scouts feel that should be worked out among themselves, not on teh suggestion of the "potential" agent.

TPM:

Please stop misquoting me, as I find it quite irritating. I never claimed college coaches, you did. In fact on January 21, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. you posted the following:

No wonder college coaches don't like them!

But wait there's more because you also went on to say:

I was always under the impression that MLB doesn't like advisors/agents when dealing with those heading to college . I was always under the impression that college coaches don't like advisors/agents because many prey on the recruit or college student who may be drafted for no reason other than his own benefit?

My postings have provoked enough controversy. Please make sure you look at the facts before you attribute the wrong quotes to the wrong people.

PG - Of course DI Coaches and GM's would see advisors/agents as a problem. How are they going to get over on unsuspecting players and parents with someone around to keep them honest? That is a little cynical but not far from reality. The NCAA surely is not looking out for the student/athlete. DI coaches would like to get the best players for the least amount of money and have historically overrecruited to hold a semester long tryout. And GM's would love to sign all their drafted players for little or nothing. I realize there are abuses by all sides but somebody has to give voice to the players.

The indentured servitude that is Minor league baseball and a student/athlete under the NCAA has to be balanced in some way. Congress recently called the NCAA's message statement into question and in response the NCAA took its millions and devised a fund that can go to supplement the student/athlete above the scholarship. Upon application and a showing of need, a student athlete may now get money to supplement their living expenses. I bet this will be fun to get money out of this vault!!

As a parent, you should avail yourself of all the assets at your disposal to make the best possible choices for your child. If one of those choices is to be advised by a professional on the choices facing your student athlete, if the NCAA or MLB don't want to provide that representation free of charge, then it is incumbent on you to find it yourself.

I think most of the problems stem form lack of communication and failure to keep promises. Whether on or off the field, they key to baseball is communication. Many college coaches communicate to these kids through recruiters, showcases and mailings. The problem is kids get the wrong idea from this communication. What kids need to understand is just because communication occurs does not meet the interest is great, let alone genuine. If parenst educate themselves about this area and learn what communication is player specific and what communication is not, then there is no need for an advisor. However, since we are talking about recuting there is a level of knowledge that an advisor may have over a parent. For instance, an advisor, through experience or inside information may know that a certain pro team does not like a certain way a certain college develops its players. Where a player does or does not chose to go to college may just be the single most important decision that the athelete makes. Therfore, proceed with caution. Some say caution requires an agent, others say educate yourself. Reasonable minds may differ, and neither one is wrong. What I am trying to say is that for all intense and purposes there is no neutral third-party. The school wants whats best for the school, the pro team wants whats best for the pro team and the parents want whats best for their child. And since the agent does have a personal interest that is most tied to himself, he becomes the easiest target. And there are enough horror stories about agents. In fact, even agents say many in the business are ruthless. I just think no matter who you are dealin with, you have to be careful.

quote:

PG - Of course DI Coaches and GM's would see advisors/agents as a problem. How are they going to get over on unsuspecting players and parents with someone around to keep them honest?

deldad,
Guess I never looked at it that way. Maybe we need advisors to help people sort out the advisors who might take advantage of an unsuspecting player or parent? Then advisors to advise us on who is best at advising on advisors.

I always look at it this way... The MLB club drafts a player and gives him money. The college recruits a player and gives him a scholarship. The agent/advisor is the only one who the player might end up paying. All of this can be a big mess.

I'm in favor of those agents/advisors who have lots of integrity and really care about the players. It's just that there are lots of them who could care less about what is in the best interest of the player... because they are so dominated by what is in their own best interest. Sometimes even giving BAD advice!

quote:

As a parent, you should avail yourself of all the assets at your disposal to make the best possible choices for your child.

IMO, that is very good advice!

quote:

Originally posted by newagent:
TPM:

Please stop misquoting me, as I find it quite irritating. I never claimed college coaches, you did. In fact on January 21, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. you posted the following:

No wonder college coaches don't like them!

But wait there's more because you also went on to say:

I was always under the impression that MLB doesn't like advisors/agents when dealing with those heading to college . I was always under the impression that college coaches don't like advisors/agents because many prey on the recruit or college student who may be drafted for no reason other than his own benefit?

My postings have provoked enough controversy. Please make sure you look at the facts before you attribute the wrong quotes to the wrong people.

I thought you said yesterday was your last post?

Go back to "help me find thread about signing money" page 2 your first post and read on, to refresh your memory. I didn't quote you and offering anyone a chance to go back to see how the conversation evolved into what PG mentioned.

This topic is in regards to choosing an advisor, there is nothing wrong with that option due to the difficult choices and understanding those choices. The person who advises you, can influence one of the most important decsions of ones' life. No one is disputing that fact and what you say above, although not necessarily all that earth shattering for those here, is true.

You have mentioned twice it may be important for someone to use an advisor to gain knowledge about inside recruiting practices of a coach.

If you are hear to educate us, why not give us other important reasons why one should consider using an advisor?

NCAA just settled a class action lawsuit. The settlement includes a provision permitting (but not requiring comprehensive health insurance). hmm...I wonder how that will change the recruitment/negotiation process. I also wonder whether the insurance covers Tommy John surgery or will they find that Tommy John is elective. Sounds like some coaches better carefully scrutinize their staff's pitch count

quote:

Originally posted by newagent:
NCAA just settled a class action lawsuit. The settlement includes a provision permitting (but not requiring comprehensive health insurance). hmm...I wonder how that will change the recruitment/negotiation process. I also wonder whether the insurance covers Tommy John surgery or will they find that Tommy John is elective. Sounds like some coaches better carefully scrutinize their staff's pitch count

Ok I got it, so you know WHY that was brought into the suit?

Reasons to Use an Advisor:

1. Good advisors have more reliable information as to the relationship between the college and profesional baseball.

2. Advisor does not have an emotional stake in the outcome of the decision. Yes, he does have a business interest in the decision. However, he is motivated by money and how he, and ultimately you can make the most.

3. Respected advisors can contact professional teams and not be considered a pain. Believe me, there is nothing cute about mom calling the [insert name of professional baseball team here] to inquire as to why her baby boy is not going to be the #1 overall pick.

4. An advisor can prevent the parent from making decisions that would adversely affect their son's career. For an example of what I mean, see reason #3.

5. A good advisor not only assists with negotiations but should also provide a role as a mentor, ie: go to bed early, don't party, those people are being nice to you only because they know you have money etc... Since hearing it from a parent is cliche, a good agent should emphasize these points.

6. An agent when acting ethically provides the athlete the most unbiased and objective view as to the athlete's future in professional sports. Since most people do not play baseball for life a good advisor should familiarize himself with good estate planning attorney's who can properly invest the athlete's funds. Ideally, the athlete can live comfortably off his interest (as opposed to his principal). Further the athlete can then attend school (if he did not attend school earler) and pursue another career. In fact, he could even go to law school (just like Scott Boras did). He might even become a member of a state bar, like Tony LaRussa did.

From what I learned marketing the player from college is simple because his ability markets himself. An advisors job is to prepare the athelete for the trials and tribulations that will occur both on and off the field. We all know that the ability to play is not forever. Therefore, a good advisor should have answers about the athelete's path though professional baseball along with his path afterwards. Afterall, you are never too young to think about retirement.

Are you going under the assumption that everyone needs an advisor/agent or just an advisor?

For anyone's information as to what the settlement is about....

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=372

In a nutshell, NCAA alloted a certain amount of grant money to be distributed amongst certain D-I football and basketball schools, which is fine. The money, was distributed to persons who received athletic-based grants-in-aid from the above mentioned programs, again that is fine too. However, the cap of the athletic aid that any given athlete was entitled too, could not exceed the, "cost of education." Again, not really a problem. A problem arises because there is no cap to the GIA. Instead, the cap resulted from a horizontal agreement. A horizontal agreement is legalize for informal, undocumented and most importantly unlawful agreement. Since the GIA did not require a cap, and the NCAA enforced one such conduct unlawfully restrained trade in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act, also known as antitrust. The NCAA settled without accepting any responsibility. However, had they gone to trial and found to have violated the Sherman Act, they could have been subject to treble damages (three times the amount sought after). Instead of having to pay a lot of money to the government, they chose to pay a little amount to the players. That money is supposed to be used towards job preparation, health insurance (not required read the settlement) and reimbursement for certain expenses (in all liklihood not to exceed $2500-$3000). Although the NCAA accepts no responsibility, they do acknowledge: the uncertain outcome
and the risk of protracted litigation, especially in complex litigation such as the Action, as well as the difficulties and delays inherent in any such litigation. I interpret "uncertain outcome" to mean that a jury could have found that the NCAA violated the antitrust. So the answer is yes, I do know what the case involves. I also know that some will argue that it does not apply to collegiate baseball players as they fall outside the class.

Not everyone needs an advisor. And with all due respect, directing people to the NCAA's website to disclose the terms of the settlement is about as useful as going to the Marlboro website to see the terms of the tobbacco settlement. With that said, I suggest you go to www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/02/04/ncaa.
There, you will find a link to the decision in PDF format. There you will find a 53 page agreement (many of the pages are superflous). The important information is scattered inside the first 10-20 pages.

Well there ya go, now you are being helpful!

I am not sure I agree with all your reasons to have an advisor but it was helpful.

I just can't see a mom calling to find out where the team is going to pick their son.

It's important not to sign anything with anyone. I do beleive that is most likely why the NCAA frowns upon advisors/agents, that immediately removes a player's eligibilty. You can't take that back.
I know of an instance where a player signed with an agent before his medical exam and that was the end of him returning to school.

An advisor is not a necessity, it is a choice and/or preference. There are some who argue that you don't even need an agent and that you can hire an attorney who will charge an hourly fee to do the same work (See Stephan Marbury). In the end, an advisor is like an accountant. There are some people who do not need an accountant and can do their own taxes (like my father). There are those that would rather use an accountant. Neither way is better, but rather a preference.

Just so you know, moms have been known to call the team and complaint (not directly to the GM, minor league coach). Additionally, when Andruw Jones first started out, his father provided all of the coaches his home phone number just in case Andruw acted up (signed at 16, played in SAL when he was 17). My problem with NCAA is that it does not adequately compensate its players. One of the concerns that lawsuit sought to address prior to settlement was the lack of compensation given to athletes (albeit football and basketball).

As for the player that you wrote about, I feel for him. Worse, the NCAA could have addressed his specific issue. That player may have had a cause of action against the agent for stripping away his eligibility. Further, had the agent been an attorney, the athlete may have had recourse through the state bar and a possible malpractice suit. Like I said, I come here with a different agenda. My objective is to protect the player from the baseball predators.

I know the outcome but not at liberty to say.

I am not sure you know the story about a Clemson football player that took in his brother because his mom was a drug addict. The NCAA would not allow him to accept any donations to help raise his brother or even allow coaches wives to give him rides home from school. The NCAA finally gave in and a fund was establsihed for living expenses and other help allowed.
The NCAA has to soften up, but if you allow for two sports, not sure why not the rest.

PG - having had some very negative experiences with prospective advisors and being the victim of some unscrupulous practices, I agree that the object is to pick the best. I don't express sympathy for the agents either.

I know that in our case, which was extremely unique I understand, that we benefitted greatly from our advisor. We made some mistakes and in hindsight could have handled some things better, but we were ultimately the decision makers.

I think that the equation has changed a little in recent years. With the new NCAA rules and the new 6 year minor league contract, decisions are made which will affect a player and his families life and wallet for years. The stakes are growing and there are no do-overs. Now add in the money grubbing and unscrupulous advisors and it complicates it further. You have obviously seen alot more of this than I have but I think that we both agree that there are no easy answers.

In my experience - dealing with the agent thing was really easy.

It was dealing with the College Coach that was a nightmare.

And there isnt anyone in the world who can protect you from that.

In college baseball - they can still do pretty much whatever they want. IMO. And get away with it to boot.

to quote DelDad...

quote:

Most college coaches have no problem whatsoever with advisors. They have dealt with them before and are not affected at all.

This is not a true statement. I could go into a thesis paper on why its not true.

to quote PG...

quote:

Maybe we need advisors to help people sort out the advisors who might take advantage of an unsuspecting player or parent? Then advisors to advise us on who is best at advising on advisors.

I always look at it this way... The MLB club drafts a player and gives him money. The college recruits a player and gives him a scholarship. The agent/advisor is the only one who the player might end up paying. All of this can be a big mess.

I'm in favor of those agents/advisors who have lots of integrity and really care about the players. It's just that there are lots of them who could care less about what is in the best interest of the player... because they are so dominated by what is in their own best interest. Sometimes even giving BAD advice!

Great words of wisdom!

You know, its actually funny. A complete stranger calls a kids house because he is a good player then that family ends up paying some of what the player and the parents worked so hard to gain. Yet the college coach, WHO WANTS THE PLAYER and the PRO SCOUT are the bad guys. Both of which are trying like heck to give him and his family money and the stranger takes the money yet doen't really know the family. Yet that stranger has the players and family's best interest at heart.

You want someone to police pro baseball and college coaches yet you can't see past your nose that no one is policing the stranger EXCEPT the FAMILY. Never made since to me why the family just doesn't police pro baseball and college coaches and keep the money instead of paying a stranger to "SO CALLED" do this for them.

Heck, why shouldn't Johnny just pass his homework off to someone else to do and pay him then Johnny can get the grade for someone else's work.

Swingbuilder- I am willing to learn, give me the introduction to the thesis paper. I should add that of course college coaches would like a world without advisors/agents, but they are a reality that they deal with. I have not heard of a story where a college didn't offer to a kid because of his advisor. Most of the players who have advisor's by the early signing period are the top tier recruits. So maybe I will rephrase and state that college coaches live with the advisor situation out of necessity.

I would state that having an advisor costs the family nothing so where's the harm. As for the agent, if the money is not signifigant then it may be a waste but in our case, the ancillary income brought in by the agent has more than paid for their services. There are a tremendous amount of services offered by some agents. Financial planning, off-season training, in-season training assistance, medical assistance, resources to secure housing, move vehicles, etc. In our case, the ability to secure medical treatment by the best possible doctors in an extremely timely manner. Not every situation is the same, but it has been beneficial to us.

I think that youall bring up some really good points to think aobut.

However, everyone seems to be in agreement that one has to be very careful in making any decision.

As I posted before know of a situation where a college player was being advised by an advisor/agent. The college coach was dead set against the player using this individual and advised him that in his particular case he did not need to pay anyone 3-4% later for that advice. The player took that advice, was drafted and later signed with an agent only for a small yearly fee to use his services. I tend to agree that most college coaches do not care for most advisor/agents when dealing with their players, especailly the ones who will be drafted in late rounds.

I have no problem with an Advisor/ Agent when used correctly and declared after there is no doubt that you will sign a pro contract.

Anything before that is against the NCAA rules and could cost a player his college elgibility.

An ADVISOR sending emails of when a player is going to pitch or take BP is someone speaking on his behalf and is a violation of NCAA Rules.

Keep the advisor to yourself and control him. Don't let him out beyond the TITLE "ADVISOR". When he steps out to a park and calls a scout or a team and sends emails on the players behalf he is NO LONGER AN ADVISOR....THE ADVISOR IS NOW AN AGENT and its a violation of NCAA rules.

I don't think any of you understand the word ADVISOR. If an advsior sits in the park and talks with a scout on the players behalf then that advisor is not an advisor he is an AGENT!

swingbuilder you have a pm.

Got it TPM, I'm doing some research for you on your question. Give me some time to put it together.

Back to this advisor thing.

An advsior is not someone who ask questions and speaks to pro teams and its representatives on the players and familys behalf. That guy is an Agent.

An advsior answers questions for the family about whatever the family wants to ask and know. Not that the advsior has the answer.

Why a family would not ask any and all questions to the parties (college coach and scout)that like their son and his abilities makes no sense to me.

When a advsior walks up to a scout and says "Hi, Im Mr. Advisor, I represent Player A" Understand then that Mr. Advisor is NOW MR. AGENT.

Agree with you on every aspect swingbuilder.

The reality is that advisors talk to scouts about players whether directly or in a round about way. They rely on these relationships to garner information that can then be passed on to the athlete. Is it against the rules? A lot of gray areas and symantics. Information is the key to making any decsision. The lines have been blurred for years and will continue to be. TPM, yourself, PG and others have great points and just emphasize the importance of these decisions and the effects that your associations have on your image and future.

We used one. If I am blessed enough to go through that process again, I could not tell you at this moment if I would use an advisor or not. No right or wrong answer.

quote:

The reality is that advisors talk to scouts about players whether directly or in a round about way. THEN THAT ADVISOR IS AN AGENT

They rely on these relationships to garner information that can then be passed on to the athlete. THIS IS WHERE IT MAKES NO SENSE. WHY IN THE HECK WOULDNT YOU JUST ASK THE SCOUT AND TAKE OUT THE 3RD PARTY.

Is it against the rules? YOU BETTER BELIVE IT IS.

You all make interesting points and for the most part I agree with the postings. However, I do think there is a double standard. As swing builder correctly points out if, "he [advisor] steps out to a park and calls a scout or a team and sends emails on the players behalf he is NO LONGER AN ADVISOR....THE ADVISOR IS NOW AN AGENT and its a violation of NCAA rules. But if a group of people get together, form a corporation and call it...umm...I don't know, "Perfect Game" decide to set up tournaments and/or showcases, charge a fee, publicize the tournaments all over the internet and baseball magazines [baseball america], mask the tournament as if it is open to everyone, but have super-duper-select teams compete where just by coincidence, these teams are all composed of some the best players in this country and others, not only is that okay the idea is encouraged. An argument could be made that "Perfect Game" is nothing more than a "legal" alternative to marketing players.

Is an agent profiting off the player? No.

Is a corporation profiting off an individual? Yes.

Whether its "perfect game" "my space" "yahoo" "google" or even newspapers, the ability to profit off advertising is immense. And I take exception to any tournament director who would dare question the integrity of an agent because they are both after the same thing, profit.

And swingbuilder, I do know the definition of Advisor, and I do know the definition of Agent. I also know the definition of naive. Some parents are naive about this whole process which is why this site is so helpful. We have all learned something from this site.

For the record, I don't agree with anything newagent said in his last post.

Swingbuilder, I would love to continue this conversation with you but it appears this thread is going in a different direction.

Any parent out there please feel free to PM me I will share my experiences.

quote:

Is an agent profiting off the player? No.

OH REALLY

quote:

I doubt that most scouts or scouting directors want to talk to a lot of parents about the player. My experience is that the info will be less forthcoming.

Key word here "doubt". I know you've been through the process.

A scout is more than willing to sit down anytime with any player and his family. Give them the benefit of the "DOUBT". If a scout likes your son, you know as well as anyone, that not only will the scouting director and the scout talk to you so will others in the organization to include the General Manager.

Like I said, I have no problem at all once the player chooses to sign. You know, I have watched these so called advisors flock to players and I have watched hearts be broken when the player gets hurt and the advsior stops coming around and calling. You and I both know that its so watered down. Heck the phone rings off the hook with every "NEWAGENT" in the country calling. There are only a few who are worthy of being a said advisor/ agent. Use the ones with big league players, they have experience and use them in conjunction with the rules.

Let me comment on "perfect game"and "newagents" comments.

What "Perfect Game" does is not a violation of NCAA Rules. As a matter of fact they had to adjust their events to meet the NCAA rules. Which they did without one public complaint.

Yep its legal and within the rules.

Deldad:

With all due respect deldad, you disgree with everything I said? Including the part about people having interesting posts. Additonally, the thread is directed by all posters not one or two.

Swingbuilder:

My bad, I seemed to have made a typo, the agent does profit off of the player. And yes, "Perfect Game" ALWAYS complies with the NCAA's rules. However, as we saw yesterday, the NCAA's rules do not always comply with our Federal Government's laws, more specifically Section I of the Sherman Act.

MLBSB Profile.............to be completed by Player only.

MLB club scouting questionairre............to be completed by Player.

In-home scout visit...............to talk to the Player and have parents also ask questions

Read the history of slot bonus'

Early June: Did you get a call for a pre-draft workout or is it all quiet on the baseball draft front ?

Is an "advisor" necessary to this point ?

The only thing I know about the Draft is that not all the best players available are drafted.

quote:

The only thing I know about the Draft is that not all the best players available are drafted.

and as we have discussed, there are many reasons why. If you don't say I want to sign and you leave it to chance then you could be going to college.

I told you of the high profile catcher in Texas back in like 2000-2001 who would not tell any team what it would take to sign him. The comment was the same to every team. "We will wait until after the draft to decide". Well, he didn't get drafted. Teams want to sign their top 10 round draft picks "at least". So if they don't get some answers then that player will fall and may not even get drafted.

thats just one situation. There are many.

Actually when mine got hurt exactly one month before the draft, it was the advisor who turned into the person we leaned on the most for info and guidance. Our experience with this particular individual was outstanding. Maybe they were the exception. All the scouts, scouting directors, and GM's were gone before the game ended, 99% to be never heard from again. The advisor was there late into the evening, the next day and the weeks that followed. I realize that is just my experience.

"There are only a few who are worthy of being a said advisor/ agent. Use the ones with big league players, they have experience and use them in conjunction with the rules." I agree swingbuilder.

That 1% you mention is the team that wanted you. They took a chance and the risk involved. So far it has worked out to both's advantage. I wish him a long and rewarding career.

deldad,

It really sounds like you guys had a very good advisor. They do exist!

You don't have to, but because of our business I would like to know who that advisor was/is. If that is OK please PM me. Always interested in who the good people are.

newagent,

I understand your analogy, but we would just as soon not be compared to the agent business. We hold events, rank players, write reports, etc. The tournaments are teams that pay an entre fee in most instances... just like any other tournament. Some ARE strictly invitational and we do hope to profit. However, we only provide a stage, no player could ever pay us enough to change what we do. We don't profit off the player other than he might pay to attend an event. We only help an individual if him or his parents call us asking questions. I really have no problem with the good honest people who are in your business and there are some very good ones. Though, it sounds like you might even agree that there are a lot of bad apples in that business. It takes a very long time to develop a good reputation, but a bad reputation can be gained in an instant.

Many years ago we thought about starting our own sports agency. If we had we would have made a lot more money over the past 10 or more years. We had a giant advantage because we got to know and developed relationships with top players at a young age... long before the other people in that business knew them. And we had the people within our organization that could have done it correctly.

The reason we have never entered that arena is because it was and is a direct conflict to our core business. We take great pride in being as honest as possible. So sending out glowing reports on players we also were advising seemed to be a big conflict of interest. Besides, the credibilty involving the information we provided would have lost it's impact for being impartial, even if we were 100% honest.

However, in line with your thoughts... There are many agents who will call us (call it the middle man) to feed us info and propaganda about the players they are advising. They know our information will reach the right people. Some of these agent/advisors we know well and really trust, but we have found some who are basically lying to us. In the end, we always have to see things for ourself because there is way too much promotion involved. Sometimes there's a lot at stake.

We talk about good college fits well the same applies to agents.

quote:

Originally posted by newagent:
You all make interesting points and for the most part I agree with the postings. However, I do think there is a double standard. As swing builder correctly points out if, "he [advisor] steps out to a park and calls a scout or a team and sends emails on the players behalf he is NO LONGER AN ADVISOR....THE ADVISOR IS NOW AN AGENT and its a violation of NCAA rules. But if a group of people get together, form a corporation and call it...umm...I don't know, "Perfect Game" decide to set up tournaments and/or showcases, charge a fee, publicize the tournaments all over the internet and baseball magazines [baseball america], mask the tournament as if it is open to everyone, but have super-duper-select teams compete where just by coincidence, these teams are all composed of some the best players in this country and others, not only is that okay the idea is encouraged. An argument could be made that "Perfect Game" is nothing more than a "legal" alternative to marketing players.

Is an agent profiting off the player? No.

Is a corporation profiting off an individual? Yes.

Whether its "perfect game" "my space" "yahoo" "google" or even newspapers, the ability to profit off advertising is immense. And I take exception to any tournament director who would dare question the integrity of an agent because they are both after the same thing, profit.

And swingbuilder, I do know the definition of Advisor, and I do know the definition of Agent. I also know the definition of naive. Some parents are naive about this whole process which is why this site is so helpful. We have all learned something from this site.

IMO - As comparative analyses go - that is both lame and shallow.

Thumbs down - again.

I suppose everyone is short-wicked waiting for both college and high school baseball to start.

While everyone is piiiiissssssing at each other, the same folks can't wait to talk about the games.

Leave the agent alone, and provide any assistance you can............geeeez

I was reminded what baseball is about in an article about my kid. It ain't about the craaapolllla in this thread!!

Oldslugger,

I would agree with you on that.

This is what you get when you inject a lawyer - into the game of baseball.

Nothing about the game. Everything about things other than the game.

Just the way it is - and will always be. Ka-Ching

LOL

And please keep in mind that this is the same knucklehead that said if you are getting good grades - you are probably not working hard enough at the game of baseball. LOL

Moronic statement IMO.

Caveat emptor.

quote:

But if a group of people get together, form a corporation and call it...umm...I don't know, "Perfect Game" decide to set up tournaments and/or showcases, charge a fee, publicize the tournaments all over the internet and baseball magazines [baseball america], mask the tournament as if it is open to everyone, but have super-duper-select teams compete where just by coincidence, these teams are all composed of some the best players in this country and others, not only is that okay the idea is encouraged. An argument could be made that "Perfect Game" is nothing more than a "legal" alternative to marketing players.

newagent,

I don't think you were trying to cut us (PG) down, and you were just using us as an example to make a point, but if I may...

Just as a correction. We don't and have never masked anything as if it were open to everyone unless it is an event that is open to everyone.

We do not pay for advertising anywhere. We donate to worthwhile things like this website, The Lions Tournament, The Heart Association, Childrens Hospitals, and many other things. We have "never" asked anyone to advertise what we do. The only real advertising is on our site. I really don't even like talking about PG on here, but sometimes feel its necessary. You will never see our events listed here (not by us anyway) or asking for players to attend any events. We don't even advertise our site on here. The whole banner thing is not our idea and it is not the reason we try to help the site.

IMO... I'd like to think we are more than a legal alternative to market players, but if not I could live with that. I can understand why you might say that.

You yourself have questioned the ethics of those involved in your business and stated you wanted to be different. So why would you take exception to anyone who "dares" questioning the integrity of an agent. Why is it that you can question their integrity, yet a tournament director can't?

BTW, I have to laugh when I see "my space", "yahoo" and "google" included in any sentence that includes Perfect Game. I've never been motivated by money or we might be in your business now. We don't charge a dime if anyone wants advice and we have experienced and been involved with more kids getting drafted and going to college than most anyone. Furthermore we work very closely with the decision makers (both college and pro) and we work closely with most of the big suppliers. Our group of people include former Major League players and scouts. A former MLB Manager, former MLB front office people, former college players, even people who have been agents, etc. I'm pretty certain we would be very successful and good as advisors, if money were the goal!

We don't charge anyone to give advice, we give it freely every day. So when you go out and start doing tournaments and other events for free, we will be even. I think you'll find what you do takes a lot less effort and costs a lot less money.

Anyway, I admire your intent of helping to clean up your industry, if that is true. Hopefully you will become one of the good ones.

Personally I am past caring who spends any money on Perfect Game. I'm much more interested in our reputation than the bottom line. You can believe that or not.

So as this doesn't sound like a complete disregard for sports agents and advisors... The truth is that the real good ones would agree with me 100%. I know, because we know most of the real good ones. At least those who have been around for awhile. We have even argued with some of them who might think we would not like them, but we still respect them. Some might not even know we respect them, but we learn from the players and no one knows more players than we do. It's simple... It's all about being honest. Not Perfect, not always right, but honest! It's actually very easy!

Sorry for being so paranoid.

PG,

Just my opinion, but I disagree with you on newagent's intent in the passage you just quoted.

Perhaps it is just his bogus logic - or naivete - or ego.
Regardless - I prefer to read it literally.

The literal interpretation - IMO - is not very encouraging.

PG:
I think PG provides a valuable asset to the young baseball player. In fact, I have nothing but glowing reviews of your programs. What PG in effect has done is centralized the recruiting process. Your resources actually allow for a detailed and objective projection of the ballplayer. I remember speaking to one father about PG. He said, he liked PG. His only criticism was the rating system. Apparently once you are given a rating, it is hard to increase your score. Although he disgareed, he both understood and accepted why this was done. He also expressed his appreciation at how willing the people at PG were to speak to him and his son about it. In the end he found the experience both rewarding and worthwhile. What I am getting at is that I find encourage showcases such as PG. I just find the role of PG and the Agent similar. Therefore, I personally think the Agent's role should not be so limiting.

As for other people on this site: I know that just hearing the word "agent" evokes serious emotion. In fact, I know just the mere mention of the word will lead people to post ridiculous comments without any facts to support them. I also know that some people lump all agents as one. As a result they feel compelled to post rude and unsolicited personal attacks. My other profession lends itself to these attacks as well. I accept that some people need to let off some steam while at the same time displaying their penchant for ignorance. In my experience, their ignorance and intolerance begins to irritate others. I also know that they are not worthy of a response as their ignorance eventually results in their own self-imposed silence. In the meantime, I will never be intimidated by the ignorant or back down to the cyber-bully.

PG:
I forgot. I was not trying to cut you down. I was merely drawing the analogy to what the role of PG is and the role of the agent. My hope was to show the similarities between the two.

I like the team approach.

Hire a lawyer for the legalese.

Hire a CPA and Investment guy to handle the money and taxes(maybe I need to enhance my chosen career duties).

Hire a laundry service

Hire a cook and cleaning staff

Hire a PR guy

Hire a chauffer

Get a personal secretary

Worry only about raking the baseball

quote:

Originally posted by newagent:
PG:
I forgot. I was not trying to cut you down. I was merely drawing the analogy to what the role of PG is and the role of the agent. My hope was to show the similarities between the two.

I think you failed - miserably.

As for agents - I like the one my son has. In fact - I know a bunch of them that I like.

As for calling people with opposing views ignorant - That is rude and insulting.
You see - some people may just think you made idiotic comments. Thats all.



LOL

Failure is in the eyes of the beholder.

1. PG did not interpret it that way

2. You need to read the postings more carefully. I did not call people who opposed my views as ignorant, just people who chose to post rude and unsolicited personal attacks.

3 There is nothing funny about being ignorant.

This is a little off-topic, but I just want to comment on the sponsor banner issue that was mentioned above.

Perfect Game has always been the number one donor to this website and the number one reason that I can donate my time and keep it free to all visitors and members. I took over the site in June of 2005, and about 6 months later I asked PGStaff (Jerry) if I could put a banner up to recognize their support. He said no, he preferred not to. But as we continued to grow and I accepted some sponsors who did wish to place ads, I asked several times more if I could put up a banner for Perfect Game. It didn't seem right for the main sponsor of our website to be unrecognized for their support while other sponsors (much appreciated but at a different level), were quite visible.

Jerry finally permitted me to add a banner later in 2006, but left it up to me what to put on it. Perfect Game has never contacted me and said "Please add this information to the banner." In fact, I've seen Jerry contact posters a few times when he felt that they appeared to be "advertising" PG events and he didn't want to do that on our site.

This information will not surprise most people who really know Perfect Game, but I just wanted to share it for any of you who don't know them as well.

Julie

My position is that PG is a valuable tool that allows everybody who has a job that is in some manner connected to baseball easier. I also believe in a free market. With that said, I think whether it is a website, showcase, or agent I just think everyone should be allowed to participate. That has been my message all along. And I for one don't appreciate anyone who asserts a position on my behalf that I have never...ever...posited.

Newagent...no one has to do that. You do one heck of a job doing that (asserts a position) yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by newagent:
Failure is in the eyes of the beholder.

1. PG did not interpret it that way

2. You need to read the postings more carefully. I did not call people who opposed my views as ignorant, just people who chose to post rude and unsolicited personal attacks.

3 There is nothing funny about being ignorant.

I think - perhaps - you need to read more carefully.
I disagree with PG - I interpreted it exactly as I said.
What does PG's interpretation have to do with my interpretation?

And yes - you do call people who dont agree with you ignorant. In fact I think you just did it again. LOL

Let me repeat - your statement - suggesting that players that get good grades are not working hard enough at the game of baseball - may be the dumbest thing I have ever read on this website.

That - is another one of my interpretations.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Oldslugger,

This is what you get when you inject a lawyer - into the game of baseball.

LOL

With all due respect, the above is the dumbest thing you ever wrote or read. And unlike you I will provide facts in support of my position:

First Commission of Baseball - Lawyer

Reason Curt Flood was able to be a free Agent - Lawyer

Donald Fehr - Lawyer

Tony LaRusa - Lawyer (Florida BAr)

Donald Fehr.

Now there is one super guy!

LOL

I think you may have just proved my point - unwittingly.