Enough already! 
Close the thread and everyone get back to talking about baseball.
quote:RJM, it's interesting you feel others should be tollerant of you educating them, but you feel no obligation to be tollerant of them educating you. There's nothing you can point to that proves you are right and the others wrong.
There is a significant difference in attempts to educate the board members regarding the need to keep religion separate from baseball (remember the OP?), and trying to educate others that your way (read: belief or religion) is either better or even worth listening to. One way leaves the minds and spirits of ballplayers open to whatever spiritual or religious inclination that they or their families choose, while the other approach presents a has an inherent framework with a bias toward a particular belief. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
Whenever we play on Sunday mornings and someone brings up a potential conflict with religious observances, I say that my church is between the lines, and that includes all that is right with sportsmanship, the intent to play fair, treat others well, and to act with a non-denominational morality (i.e., right or wrong) in all aspects of the game.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
I really do believe this is a Christian baseball website. Christians can make whatever offensive comment they want. But I when I return my perspective, which is intended to help them see the other side, I'm condemned.
I believe an honest review of this thread will bear that out. I also believe you have been reasonable in your explanations and illustrations.
I am disappointed that many "aggressive" posts have gone ignored by the moderators while your illustration of historical treatment has been attacked.
I haven't checked in on this in a while I'm a little surprised it stayed up as long as it has.
I'm happy most have been able to discuss it civilly.
As the orginal poster I want to point out I didn't attend this after practice ativity so I don't know first hand what happened. I don't think he said "We're going to have bible study after practice for those that want to attend". My son discribed it as bible study similar to what he's attended at our church. That is why I said it was bible study. What the coach would describe it as I don't know.
The religious aspect of this discussion is only part of it because I believe it is illegal in public schools. It doesn't really matter what faith he follows it shouldn't be part of baseball practice.
In all honesty if he told me the coach was a city council member and wanted to have a meeting to discuss political views I'd still be bothered by this activity being part of practice. It doesn't matter if we shared the same politacal views.
I'm happy most have been able to discuss it civilly.
As the orginal poster I want to point out I didn't attend this after practice ativity so I don't know first hand what happened. I don't think he said "We're going to have bible study after practice for those that want to attend". My son discribed it as bible study similar to what he's attended at our church. That is why I said it was bible study. What the coach would describe it as I don't know.
The religious aspect of this discussion is only part of it because I believe it is illegal in public schools. It doesn't really matter what faith he follows it shouldn't be part of baseball practice.
In all honesty if he told me the coach was a city council member and wanted to have a meeting to discuss political views I'd still be bothered by this activity being part of practice. It doesn't matter if we shared the same politacal views.
RJM
I appologize if you feel some have use this thread to attack your beliefs. My intentions were never to promote one religion or another. It wasn't even to discuss religion expect to say I believed it shouldn't be part of baseball practice.
I appologize if you feel some have use this thread to attack your beliefs. My intentions were never to promote one religion or another. It wasn't even to discuss religion expect to say I believed it shouldn't be part of baseball practice.
Bas3balldad -
As the owner of the thread you can CLOSE the thread at any time! Please do so and let's get back to baseball discussions!
(to do this, Go back to your original note and click on the modify icon, then look at the left side in the green area and click on "options" and you can select to close the topic.)
As the owner of the thread you can CLOSE the thread at any time! Please do so and let's get back to baseball discussions!
(to do this, Go back to your original note and click on the modify icon, then look at the left side in the green area and click on "options" and you can select to close the topic.)
As a Bible believer, I don't believe any Religion has any place in our schools or our Government...
But, if individuals want to get together to study the Bible, I see that as a great thing....So, if a Coach announces a Bible study get-together for whomever wants to attend, he should be able to do so....
Now, if I was a parent, I would monitor the Bible study if my kid attended....And, I wouldn't want any Religion being pushed on my kid, just as I don't want any Religion being pushed on my Government....
But, if individuals want to get together to study the Bible, I see that as a great thing....So, if a Coach announces a Bible study get-together for whomever wants to attend, he should be able to do so....
Now, if I was a parent, I would monitor the Bible study if my kid attended....And, I wouldn't want any Religion being pushed on my kid, just as I don't want any Religion being pushed on my Government....
RJM I think your antennae are a bit too finely tuned to detect offense where none was neither intended nor appropriate.
Why would you be upset if someone thought his religion was better than other religions? Isn't that true of everyone, by definition? If a Christian thought Judaism was better, wouldn't he then convert?
I would just assume EVERYONE thinks their religion was the best one. What is the big deal?
Why would you be upset if someone thought his religion was better than other religions? Isn't that true of everyone, by definition? If a Christian thought Judaism was better, wouldn't he then convert?
I would just assume EVERYONE thinks their religion was the best one. What is the big deal?
quote:As the owner of the thread you can CLOSE the thread at any time!
RHPP05Parent - If it bothers you, it is optional for you to read it, so don't, and remember, it will not be held against you if you choose not to attend this thread any longer.
When I was a kid in school, we were poor and didn't have nice clothes. I was skinny and small for my age, had a goofy looking haircut and was not from the same church as the majority of the other kids. You'd have thought I was a prime candidate for getting harassed and picked on.
Oddly enough people were generally nice to me, the kids that got picked on were the ones who were always snarling and snapping when they thought they'd been mistreated. They always seemed to be lashing out at others and this caused even more trouble, it just became a vicious cycle. They weren't being picked on because they were like me but because they were always hissing at everyone else.
Baseball season is FINALLY arriving here in Ohio! If we can only get the fields to dry out...
Oddly enough people were generally nice to me, the kids that got picked on were the ones who were always snarling and snapping when they thought they'd been mistreated. They always seemed to be lashing out at others and this caused even more trouble, it just became a vicious cycle. They weren't being picked on because they were like me but because they were always hissing at everyone else.
Baseball season is FINALLY arriving here in Ohio! If we can only get the fields to dry out...
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I would just assume EVERYONE thinks their religion was the best one. What is the big deal?
The big deal is when, as evidenced in this thread, some can rant agressively about their religion and claim some form of superiority with no comment, while another makes no claims but is jumped on when simply illustrating factual discrimination of theirs.
The treament is unbalanced at best, and suspect at worst.
What if the prayers are rotational as opposed to linear?
When the earth shakes, where does everybody look?
When the shooting starts, everybody in the foxhole prays.
Both of the above applied to believers and non-believers.
Just my opinion based on experience.
When the shooting starts, everybody in the foxhole prays.
Both of the above applied to believers and non-believers.
Just my opinion based on experience.
If it is a public school, it is wrong for the coach to offer religious events so closely tied to baseball practice. I will go one step further. It is also wrong for there to be a prayer in which a god is mentioned before a public school game as well. *Regardless* of who leads the prayer. If you understand group norms and how teams work wrt authority, you understand that none of this is voluntary even when it is officially written as voluntary. Everyone can see who sat in the dugout when the prayer was said just as the coach knows who didn't attend the bible study.
It is sometimes difficult for those in the majority to see the issue because what is being discussed is not offensive to them. The laws protecting the state from churches are there to protect us from the radical religions or to protect individuals in thier own religions but you can't draw a line. You must protect from all or protect from none.
It is sometimes difficult for those in the majority to see the issue because what is being discussed is not offensive to them. The laws protecting the state from churches are there to protect us from the radical religions or to protect individuals in thier own religions but you can't draw a line. You must protect from all or protect from none.
quote:When the earth shakes, where does everybody look?
When the shooting starts, everybody in the foxhole prays.
When the earth shakes or the shooting starts I take cover. Never prayed once or looked up unless there was lightning. When I get in trouble the adrenalin kicks in.
That is the clean answer.
A question for believers. Why do you always pray for such trivial things as getting a hit, having a good game or some other personal benefit ?
Yes many religious people do great things but so do non believers. My Dad was an Atheist and he did more for his community than anyone else in that community. He a school named after him and received many awards over his life. He even chucked the local minister's fat indulgent butt off our property.
Yes many religious people do great things but so do non believers. My Dad was an Atheist and he did more for his community than anyone else in that community. He a school named after him and received many awards over his life. He even chucked the local minister's fat indulgent butt off our property.
quote:Enough already!
I'll second RHP05 Parent. Let's either close this or move it to Unusually Unusual.
Bobblehead, This is a good question. But not for this thread. To explain why people pray and how and if it does benefit anyone would require a whole thread on it's own. If you'd like to discuss that, please start another thread.
This thread is about a coach's power and authority first and foremost. You could take out the fact that it was a bible study and replace it with a political rally and the answers should be the same.
This thread is about a coach's power and authority first and foremost. You could take out the fact that it was a bible study and replace it with a political rally and the answers should be the same.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
A question for believers. Why do you always pray for such trivial things as getting a hit
Most of us don't, we only ask for strength and the grace to accept whatever happens, the will to give it our best shot.
quote:A question for believers. Why do you always pray for such trivial things as getting a hit, having a good game or some other personal benefit ?
BHD, I'll answer your question from my perspective. It's because God says what matters to us matters to Him. But, He doesn't say he'll answer the prayer the way we want. I personally don't pray that way. When my son's playing, I pray for his safety, to perform his best, and to be a good reflection of God to those he comes in contact with. From there, whatever happens, happens.
On your point about your dad, he sounds like a fine man. Can't knock anyone on this earth that helps those in need. You're right that doing good things on this earth certainly isn't limited to "religious" people. I don't know any "religious" people that would argue that.
Have a good day!
This thread needs to be closed.
This is the HSBBW, not Religion 101.
I'm all for a good debate, but this has gotten out of hand. It's very disappointing to logon here expecting to see a mature discussion about baseball and end up with this - one insult after another...
This is the HSBBW, not Religion 101.
I'm all for a good debate, but this has gotten out of hand. It's very disappointing to logon here expecting to see a mature discussion about baseball and end up with this - one insult after another...
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
A question for believers. Why do you always pray for such trivial things as getting a hit, having a good game or some other personal benefit ?
I wont answer for others, but as a believer, it is because I am told in the Bible I believe to do so....
Philippians 4:6–7 (NIV)
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God....
I believe that some pray for trivial things....but I let God decide what is trivial and what is not....
I pray before every game I umpire.....
For myself...
I pray for clarity of mind, so my decisions are clear and concise..
I pray for that God will strengthen me to see the contest through...
I pray for control of my emotions so that during the game I can be an example of self control...
I also pray for the participants...
I pray asking that God grant to all athletes, coaches, and fans, the strength to pursue excellence
during the game and in all that they do...
I pray for the safety of these athletes; to protect them from injury and harm.
I pray that they will enjoy the game and hold the memories dear to their heart as youth and sport can be a fleeting thing....
My dream team:
Coach May as my son's coach and Pia behind the dish!
Gentlemen you both make the world a better place.
Coach May as my son's coach and Pia behind the dish!
Gentlemen you both make the world a better place.
Bobblehead,
Yes, a clean answer.
An equally clean reply would be that you probably would be the first. Certainly from my experience.
Your father sounds like a fine man and you should be very proud of his accomplishments and work in the community. Society needs people that are willing to be involved and give of themselves.
Yes, a clean answer.
An equally clean reply would be that you probably would be the first. Certainly from my experience.
Your father sounds like a fine man and you should be very proud of his accomplishments and work in the community. Society needs people that are willing to be involved and give of themselves.
For those not interested in this conversation dont read it. for those that are I know I said I would not continue but was curious as to the legal aspect and this is what I have found.
Is this still going on? Ok I spent a good amount of time reading court rulings on the issue.
Bottom line is it legal? That will depend on if the coach said we will have a voluntary bible study after practice over by....Dismissed.
Or he said Dismissed.... Oh and for anyone that wants to we will have voluntary bible study over by the...
If he urges players to attend while still on duty as an official of the school, then it is
Unacceptable
Many people (including teachers, principals, and school boards) incorrectly believe that prayer is not allowed in the public schools. Prayer is, in fact, not only allowed, but is a protected form of speech. This applies throughout the public school system -- before during and after school -- in school busses, at the flag-pole, in the cafeteria, etc. It is allowed in student- organized and student-run religious clubs, (if any secular clubs are also allowed.) Student-led, student-organized prayer may be allowed at special, one-time school events, like graduation ceremonies. However, it is not normally permitted in the classroom as part of the teaching schedule, or at repeated events like athletic games.
Several ruling on this issue and here are some excerpts from the rulings.
Without question, public school employees
retain their rights of free exercise.When off
duty, school employees are free to engage in
worship, proselytizing or any other lawful faith based activity.When they are acting as representatives of a public school system, however, courts have said their rights are constrained by the
Establishment Clause.
A federal district court ruled that a teacher, should be free to participate in the religious club but said the school district could insist that
the teacher not participate at the school where she
was employed.The appellate court affirmed the decision but went further in protecting the teacher’s rights, concluding that the school district could not exclude her from the program at her own school.The court reasoned that once the
school day ended,The teacher became a private citizen, leaving her free to be a Good News Club instructor at any school, including the one where she worked.The court ruled that no reasonable
observer would perceive The teacher’s after-school role as being carried out on behalf of the school district, even though the club met on school property.
In general, then, the courts have ruled that public
schools have substantial discretion to regulate the
religious expression of teachers during nstructional
hours, especially when students are required to
be present.The courts have also ruled, however,
that attempts by schools to extend that control
into non-instructional hours constitute an overly
broad intrusion on the teachers’ religious freedom.
There have been several court injections into their rulings to include one that reads in part because a teacher appears to have retaliated against a student for filing a lawsuit, The Judge says the University of Georgia doesn't have to reinstate a woman fired for requiring girls to participate in religious activities.
The judge said he did not believe Braswell would prove that her constitutional rights had been violated, and issued a warning to university professionals "to be very sensitive to the fact that if they inject their religious beliefs into activities that include students, that is going to be perceived as something that the student participants would be expected to participate in." While in the role of a coach during school activities.
Bottom line He would be best served if he just stopped but he is within his rights to do it UNLESS it is before dismissal of the team for the day or it can be proved he discriminates against students that do not participate.
Here are some of the rulings if you want to read them.
Good News Club v. Milford Central School District
(2001)
Board of Education v. Mergens
(1990),
Rosenberger v. University of Virginia (1995)
Is this still going on? Ok I spent a good amount of time reading court rulings on the issue.
Bottom line is it legal? That will depend on if the coach said we will have a voluntary bible study after practice over by....Dismissed.
Or he said Dismissed.... Oh and for anyone that wants to we will have voluntary bible study over by the...
If he urges players to attend while still on duty as an official of the school, then it is
Unacceptable
Many people (including teachers, principals, and school boards) incorrectly believe that prayer is not allowed in the public schools. Prayer is, in fact, not only allowed, but is a protected form of speech. This applies throughout the public school system -- before during and after school -- in school busses, at the flag-pole, in the cafeteria, etc. It is allowed in student- organized and student-run religious clubs, (if any secular clubs are also allowed.) Student-led, student-organized prayer may be allowed at special, one-time school events, like graduation ceremonies. However, it is not normally permitted in the classroom as part of the teaching schedule, or at repeated events like athletic games.
Several ruling on this issue and here are some excerpts from the rulings.
Without question, public school employees
retain their rights of free exercise.When off
duty, school employees are free to engage in
worship, proselytizing or any other lawful faith based activity.When they are acting as representatives of a public school system, however, courts have said their rights are constrained by the
Establishment Clause.
A federal district court ruled that a teacher, should be free to participate in the religious club but said the school district could insist that
the teacher not participate at the school where she
was employed.The appellate court affirmed the decision but went further in protecting the teacher’s rights, concluding that the school district could not exclude her from the program at her own school.The court reasoned that once the
school day ended,The teacher became a private citizen, leaving her free to be a Good News Club instructor at any school, including the one where she worked.The court ruled that no reasonable
observer would perceive The teacher’s after-school role as being carried out on behalf of the school district, even though the club met on school property.
In general, then, the courts have ruled that public
schools have substantial discretion to regulate the
religious expression of teachers during nstructional
hours, especially when students are required to
be present.The courts have also ruled, however,
that attempts by schools to extend that control
into non-instructional hours constitute an overly
broad intrusion on the teachers’ religious freedom.
There have been several court injections into their rulings to include one that reads in part because a teacher appears to have retaliated against a student for filing a lawsuit, The Judge says the University of Georgia doesn't have to reinstate a woman fired for requiring girls to participate in religious activities.
The judge said he did not believe Braswell would prove that her constitutional rights had been violated, and issued a warning to university professionals "to be very sensitive to the fact that if they inject their religious beliefs into activities that include students, that is going to be perceived as something that the student participants would be expected to participate in." While in the role of a coach during school activities.
Bottom line He would be best served if he just stopped but he is within his rights to do it UNLESS it is before dismissal of the team for the day or it can be proved he discriminates against students that do not participate.
Here are some of the rulings if you want to read them.
Good News Club v. Milford Central School District
(2001)
Board of Education v. Mergens
(1990),
Rosenberger v. University of Virginia (1995)
Back on original topic...intrepretations of the law by the Clinton administration I've read on this subject refers to only "teachers and administrators" being prohibited from leading prayers. I'm not sure, but the issue here may be that the assistant coach may be a volunteer ... making him neither a teacher nor an administrator and likely not subject to the law. If he's paid by the school, it would seem to me he would fall under the "teacher/administrator" definition.
quote:issue here may be that the assistant coach may be a volunteer
I believe that it applies to anyone who is in a position of authority, volunteer or not. The laws are there to protect against those in authority who may by their position exert pressure directly or indirectly.
Years ago our schools all had prayers broadcast over the intercom system. That was banned at least 40 years ago.
If this coach was offering an optional "get to know Amway" study group I'm pretty sure the door would have been slammed shut long ago... and making money is something each of the players need to learn. He is at best mis-guided in taking advantage of his authority position to express his beliefs, whether or not some of the young men hold those same beliefs. An open invite to his place of worship would be more appropriate. IMHO this activity has a good possibility of creating a divide in teammates and should be stopped. (At least that's what the anonymous note to our AD would say :<
)) BTW a fan of both baseball and religion.
)) BTW a fan of both baseball and religion.
The other question is when does the coach dismiss the player from his authority ? Is it when he leaves the school property ? Does he still have power over the player when he calls later from home and say this is coach so and so would you like to attend a bible class I am holding ? Maybe it occurs when he is no longer your coach.
Chances are the assistant coach needed board approval to coach within the school district. Chances are he's considered an unpaid part time employee subject to the rules of the school district.quote:the issue here may be that the assistant coach may be a volunteer
Bobbleheaddoll asks:
And then the conundrum: If both the hitter and the pitcher believe in the same god, what happens?
If they believe in different gods, does that prove which religion is superior?
quote:Why do you always pray for such trivial things as getting a hit, having a good game or some other personal benefit ?
And then the conundrum: If both the hitter and the pitcher believe in the same god, what happens?
If they believe in different gods, does that prove which religion is superior?
BobbleheadDoll .
With everything I was able to read and find his authority ends each day when he is done coaching or teaching and the players/students are dismissed from direct school related activities led by authority figures.
Yankeelvr I agree it could create a divide but the same can be said for spontainously led prayer by a student even during an event which is 100% protected.
With everything I was able to read and find his authority ends each day when he is done coaching or teaching and the players/students are dismissed from direct school related activities led by authority figures.
Yankeelvr I agree it could create a divide but the same can be said for spontainously led prayer by a student even during an event which is 100% protected.
I too recommend this thread be closed.
And to do so, let's close it with this
Red Skelton's Pledge of Allegience, a video.
What a wonderful and worthwhile clip to watch and share with all your friends and acquaintances!
Please don't respond. Just listen, think,
and move on.
http://media.causes.com/604250?p_id=42563578 <http://media.causes.com/604250?p_id=42563578>
And to do so, let's close it with this
Red Skelton's Pledge of Allegience, a video.
What a wonderful and worthwhile clip to watch and share with all your friends and acquaintances!
Please don't respond. Just listen, think,
and move on.
http://media.causes.com/604250?p_id=42563578 <http://media.causes.com/604250?p_id=42563578>
Just for the record I tried to go back and close the topic. For some reason it didn't let me.