Bible study after practice?

I am not sure what the laws are on this but I would think if it were completely voluntary then it might be ok. I could see an ACLU type possibly making some hay with it but I am not sure about that. Perhaps MidloDad or hokione or infielddad or some other resident lawyer here has a take.

My son went to a public college and they had a bible study group. He enjoyed participating even though it was not the denomination of Christianity he was raised. To lighten this topic up a little, I couldn't resist when he told me of his participation and threw a little off-color joke his way. I said what are you guys doing at the bible study - sitting around and praying for base hits?

He did not appreciate the humor very much

.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I am 100% against it. Every voluntary thing a coach asks is pretty much involuntary in my opinion. I will look after my own childrens religious background, thank you very much.

I agree. We raise our kids and I don't want religion pushed on them. It may be voluntary but is it really ?

Any activity that happens directly preceding or after an official sporting activity, that involves a bulk of the players, and led by a coach, is going to get viewed by everyone as mandatory.

Even if it isn't stated as such, what player doesn't want to be on the good side of the coach.

It's inappropriate as it is now and I would take issue with the administration about it. If it were to happen completely outside the realm of the sports activity, and it required a special trip to get there to participate, that's a whole different story.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I am 100% against it. Every voluntary thing a coach asks is pretty much involuntary in my opinion. I will look after my own childrens religious background, thank you very much.

Good points.

Perhaps issue #2 is how do you bring this up to the coach if you feel this is a bad idea?

If it was a player saying "Hey guys every ________ night I will be holding a bible study for the team at _________ and I would like anyone who wants to attend come." I think that would be awesome for the guys. But with it being a coach I can see where a kid or kids would feel pressured to attend. I think that it is best for the coaches to stay out of this type of thing.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

Bummer - this call for moderation will probably kill the religious slap-fight I was looking forward to watching. Guess I'll put the popcorn away.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

Perhaps issue #2 is how do you bring this up to the coach if you feel this is a bad idea?

Coach, I'm not here to discuss or debate, but your bible study group is inappropriate and can not continue when it is so closely connected to an official school activity. I'm not trying to be a hard a$$ about it, but if you continue, you'll leave me no choice but to take it up with school and district administration. I hope that you make a choice to disassociate with baseball at a great enough distance that these actions won't be necessary. Thanks for your time, goodbye.

I can see all of those points. I know that we are happy that son's college coach does a "chapel" on Sunday mornings before games (or I guess I should say before getting the field ready for home games) in the locker room, and at the motel on road trips. From what he says, completely voluntary, a good number show up, but by no means anywhere near 100%. This is a private school, with a religious affiliation, so definitely not the public school issues involved.

I can see issues being raised if it is held right before or after a required team practice/game. However, it is well established that a voluntary meeting for religious groups have to be accomodated in a public school setting, much as the various secular organizations.

If a player brings it up like that, CPLZ, he's running a high chance of being a marked man. Why not invite the AD to be there as practice ends on that day. Don't you think the AD would handle it without a player making it an issue? Being coach led is the key here on why I don't see it flying in a public school.

I just found out about it and I wasn't quite sure how to feel. I'm sure the intentions are good not trying to push them to one church or another. It's not the head coach, I don't want anybody in trouble or anything but I just don't see how kids would not feel like they have to participate.

quote:

Coach, I'm not here to discuss or debate, but your bible study group is inappropriate and can not continue when it is so closely connected to an official school activity. I'm not trying to be a hard a$$ about it, but if you continue, you'll leave me no choice but to take it up with school and district administration. I hope that you make a choice to disassociate with baseball at a great enough distance that these actions won't be necessary. Thanks for your time, goodbye.

"Thank you sooo much Mr. Parent for calling me out on this one. I'm afraid I may have gotten too carried away with my own religious interests, and may have put some boys in an awkward position on the team. But being a high-school baseball coach, I consider myself a pretty enlightened man, and I'm open to this kind of correction. And don't worry, I'm not the kind of person to retaliate with reduced playing time for something so significant as this. Your son will continued to be judged objectively based on talent alone. Good bye"

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I am 100% against it. Every voluntary thing a coach asks is pretty much involuntary in my opinion. I will look after my own childrens religious background, thank you very much.

Have to agree.....Our team has 4 Jewish kids, all starters...how could they "voluntarily" not participate?

You should know I already feel like an outsider from the team so. Picking a fight over this isn't my first choice.
If my son came and said after practice some of the guys from the baseball team want to get together and have a bible study at Jimmy's house. I would be suspicious but I'd probably let him go if he wanted to.
This is basically right after practice they sit on the bleacher by the field. He's been to bible study before with our church and said it was very similar. I'm not agaist religion or anything but just think there is a time and place for it.

"Good points.

Perhaps issue #2 is how do you bring this up to the coach if you feel this is a bad idea?"

Invite the coach over and say,"I appreciate how you are concerned about my childs moral and religious upbringing. Thank you very much. I am coming out after the next game to hold my own service for the boys to give you a break. I am a firm believer in volunteerism and religion."

Then you tell him you are a Satanist and ask him what part of the field does he want blessed with virgins blood. Fair is fair.

Thank you wraggArm for providing us with what the coach would most likely say and do. I'm certain there was noooooo...sarcasm whatsoever in that post.

More seriously, I'm not sure how to go about it without upsetting the assistant coach. Let's assume that he's doing this for the kids, has his heart in the right place and won't consciously retaliate. I think that's a pretty safe assumption but I still wouldn't want to take the risk. I guess you need to find a way to get the word to the head coach anonymously that there could be an issue here or perhaps the head coach just needs to make it clear that no one is going to benefit or suffer relative to baseball because they do or don't attend the bible sessions. Is that enough?

It is kind of sad because although I'm not much of believer myself I admire people who go out of their way to live their religious beliefs in a way that benefits others.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I was going to write an composed, articulate opinion. But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate, single me out again and nothing is done by moderators, I will compose a both guns blazing response when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater. I'm beginning to think this is a Christian only board since nothing is done about his remarks.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I was going to write an composed, articulate opinion. But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate and single me out again I will compose a both guns balzing reponse when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater.

Please, please, please let it go and be the bigger man here regardless of bigotry - real or perceived. If you have something to say to wraggarm, send it to him in a pm and don't do it here for show.

wraggarm - I can feel you workin it. Please let this go and perhaps you could be the bigger man here and apologize for any perceived wrongs that may have been committed. This is not a freak-show here.

Bas3balldad...I bet if you checked with the principal's assistant you would find there's some way of raising concerns anonymously for them to look into. You might consider leveraging that.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:

quote:

Coach, I'm not here to discuss or debate, but your bible study group is inappropriate and can not continue when it is so closely connected to an official school activity. I'm not trying to be a hard a$$ about it, but if you continue, you'll leave me no choice but to take it up with school and district administration. I hope that you make a choice to disassociate with baseball at a great enough distance that these actions won't be necessary. Thanks for your time, goodbye.

"Thank you sooo much Mr. Parent for calling me out on this one. I'm afraid I may have gotten too carried away with my own religious interests, and may have put some boys in an awkward position on the team. But being a high-school baseball coach, I consider myself a pretty enlightened man, and I'm open to this kind of correction. And don't worry, I'm not the kind of person to retaliate with reduced playing time for something so significant as this. Your son will continued to be judged objectively based on talent alone. Good bye"

My response was as a parent talking with the coach, not a player.

As to retaliation. I learned a long time ago, that I am not powerful enough to control people reactions to things I do or say. I certainly weigh the potential negative outcomes against the positive gain before undertaking a task. Each of us individually must assess these for themselves.

My personal view, is that much that is wrong with the world today is the result of fear. Fear of retribution, fear of attribute, and the worst, fear of losing something personal because of standing up for something fundamentally wrong.

Politicians give us lessons in this everyday. Rather than do the right thing, they serve themselves by voting in a manner that is self preservationist. Personally, my well being has never really been a concern. I've always considered myself smart enough, resourceful enough, and hardworking enough, to overcome any obstacle that someone might place in my way for standing up for what I believe in. The fear of loss is the big boogeyman in many peoples lives...not mine.

Been there, done that, gotten institutional retribution and survived it. I don't believe in teaching my kid to "take it" from someone just because they are in a position of authority. But that's just me.

Thinking about it clearly. I would have my son tell him that he wasn't interested. If the coach pressured him I would tell him to wlak away. Then I would meet with the coach and I would tell him to go (fill in the blank) himself and then proceed to the AD, school board, local paper and do my best to get him fired.

Did I mention that I don't care for religion to be mixed in with baseball?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Bas3balldad...I bet if you checked with the principal's assistant you would find there's some way of raising concerns anonymously for them to look into. You might consider leveraging that.

Maybe but it's a small town, coach lived there most of his life, and I moved here a year ago. Somehow I see it getting back to him. I haven't decided if I care he knows or not but I'm pretty sure my kid would care.

quote:

Originally posted by Bas3balldad:
I know this is going to be a touchy subject to some but I'm just looking for some feedback no agenda.

My son goes to a public school and he mentioned to me the other day that once a week they have been having bible study after practice. One of the coaches is a minister or something. It's not required or anything that I know of.

I don't really have an issue if he wants to attend but it just seemed like something a public school coach would shy away from.

The bible study is an extra curricular event that has nothing to do with playing baseball. In order for an event like this to be held it probably needs to be with the permission of the school district, possibly with board approval. Parents should be notified the event occurs. It should be held away from practice so none of the players feel any pressure to attend.

I wonder if the coach believes the bible study is part of team bonding. If he does, I'm going to guess it would be considered discriminatory against non Christians and not be allowed. He would probably be told to have a BBQ or something else everyone on the team would be comfortable attending. There also may be Catholics or Christians who prefer not to attend due to the denomination of the coach/pastor. Or as one poster commented, religion is his family's business not the coach's.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate, single me out again and nothing is done by moderators, I will compose a both guns blazing response when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater.

Ok, I'll go PM RJM - looks like we need to kiss and make up for that zinger.

But seriously. Dude. As I said before...there was nothing anti-Semitic in that post. I was making fun of you for being too zealous and wearing it on your sleeve, just like I would for any Christian nut.

I'll be happy to PM anyone the original text, as it was posted upon request. But the one thing I am not is a Jew-hater.

The "agitator" accusation, however, is probably accurate.


Sorry, RJM, you're just not as persecuted here as you're fantasizing.

quote:

Sorry, RJM, you're just not as persecuted here as you're fantasizing.

I can feel the sincerity. Don't bother. Being on the receiving end of anti-Semitic remarks (deleted in the last thread with religion) isn't a fantasy. People like you just never get it. You are who you are. You hate Jews. I can accept that. I can accept you'll burn in hell too.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I was going to write an composed, articulate opinion. But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate, single me out again and nothing is done by moderators, I will compose a both guns blazing response when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater. I'm beginning to think this is a Christian only board since nothing is done about his remarks.

First, IMO. wraggArm should be banned from this site for trying to start up when this was finished a month ago (not to mention that RJM was not the only one upset with his comments from that topic, jews and non jews, and yes he made anti semitic remarks), also for his scarcastic reply to CPLZ. Just goes to show who wants to start trouble around here.

Second why would RJM not be allowed to post his comments on the OP's topic, I didn't see anything that would get him upset? Even if he did, he has a right to view his opinions, seems like everyone else can as long as you aren't of THAT faith, huh? I don't blame him for being ticked off.

This topic has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs, but whether this is appropriate behavior for a coach at a public school. Let him go minister at his church, not after baseball practice. Good points here, these are young kids, they look at things differently, they may feel they might get left behind if they don't participate. I'd be the first one in the AD's office, and not because of my religious beliefs.

In public school there is seperation from church and state, he has no business, no coach at any public institution has any right to hold bible study, regardless of it being mandatory or not.

If this discussion gets ugly, I am closing it.

In my book there is no place for religion on the baseball field

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

If this discussion gets ugly, I am closing it.

No, please don't. I'll bow out now.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
In my book there is no place for religion on the baseball field

There is if the school is private and religiously affiliated. I attended a Methodist based private school one year. By attending a private school my parents chose I would follow their rules. I had to attend church four days a week. I didn't have to bow my head or participate in the prayers. I just had to respect I was in a church that was important to most of the participants. I know of Catholic schools who have prayers in the dugouts before games.

I vote for closing the thread.

I am talking public schools

Private or religious affiliated schools are another ball of wax

What is with the closing of threads !!!!---do we not have debate here any longer!

Let me preface my response by saying I am an ordained Baptist minister. With that said, I have been furious for years at the compulsory religious practices forced upon my son in baseball venues: prayers before games, overt religious proselytizing by a showcase coach, a sermon preached at a baseball tournament banquet sponsored by the local public school system.

So, as a Christian, why am I upset that other Christians are conducting themselves in this fashion? Because I do not send my son to baseball to be coerced into certain religious viewpoints. My wife and I, and our church, are responsible for teaching him the tenets of our faith. Those tenets are the most important thing in our lives. We are happy to send him to baseball to learn how to hit, field, and throw. When coaches and others dare to push their particular religious views on him, though, they have violated a sacred boundary.

"Furious" is a surprising choice of words. Are you a currently practicing minister?

RJM - I know you are Jewish and all, but dude a Methodist school and they made you go 4 times a week? Seriously?


Don't tell my church. We are more into a weekly suggestion. :-)

quote:

My personal view, is that much that is wrong with the world today is the result of fear. Fear of retribution, fear of attribute, and the worst, fear of losing something personal because of standing up for something fundamentally wrong.

I will add fear of sharing your faith. There was a time when Judeo-Christian values were the foundation of core principles in the lives of Americans. We were a better country then.

I applaud the coach for taking the initiative to lead these young men. By description and admission of bas3balldad this is a voluntary study. Since we are 'observing' this activity from such a great distance it is unfair for us on the board to judge the intentions and motivation of the coach. If subsequent actions reveal that this study is not voluntary then action should be taken. Until then, I see many posters here trying to create fire where there is no smoke.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
"Furious" is a surprising choice of words. Are you a currently practicing minister?

I have been a pastor for eighteen years and recently retired from my church to open a pastoral counseling practice. "Furious" is exactly how I have felt when someone was presumptuous enough to force their religious views on my child. My son's religious/spiritual instruction is more important to me than anything else and I don't entrust it to just anyone.

You sound a bit insecure with what you're teaching your son to be that upset over one time things at voluntary events. It's not like he's locked in a building owned by a cult and being brainwashed.

quote:

If this discussion gets ugly, I am closing it.

TPM, I'm with you 100%.....I'll do it as well...

What I find interesting is that I don't think that RJM ever mentioned anywhere here that he was jewish?

What I think that he was arguing was that some feel that god should be practiced their way, as might be the case of this coach who may be trying to persuade others.

Bas3balldad, obviously you can see this is a sensitive topic, you seem not to have a real serious problem with it. Is it immediately after practice or at someone's home? I think there might lie the difference as to what is allowed and what is not as far as public school policy. Isn't there a difference in prayer before the game in public schools and colleges (non denominational)?

For those that think this is ok, just a question, if your son came home and told you that one of his coachs (a practicing muslim) was going to have Koran studies after practice (voluntary of course), what would you do?

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:

quote:

If this discussion gets ugly, I am closing it.

TPM, I'm with you 100%.....I'll do it as well...

Discussion is ok, getting nasty is not, thanks for the support.

quote:

For those that think this is ok, just a question, if your son came home and told you that one of his coachs (a practicing muslim) was going to have Koran studies after practice (voluntary of course), what would you do?

I actually don't think it's a good idea at a public school when led by a coach at the field (his location of authority). But, to answer your question, I would ask him if he was going to go. If he said yes, I would be shocked and ask why. If he said no, I would ask why and make sure he had his thoughts together to explain his actions if asked. Then I would forget about it...other than to watch the games and make sure it seemed the coaches behavior toward him remained the same.

I find it rather ironic, that when it comes to questions on parents attending practices and all the discussion on when junior gets to high school that many people on here say let the kid take care of his own business with the coach.

And then when it comes to bible study that all of a sudden the "young men" become "children, child, etc." that cannot take care of it themselves.

If those that feel that kids are old enough to handle the playing time politics, talking to the coach on his own, getting himself home, etc., then I think they can handle something like bible study.

I have been to many a religious studies over my many years including Islamic, Jewish and several Christian and have never attended ONE that could do physical damage to me. I did do many after practice/game activities in high school with friends drinking and partying that could have killed me and others because of it.

I schooled with all faiths through public school and college and I work with and for all types of religious individuals. One thing that I have found is that because of the strong religous upbringing I had from my parents that I am able to interact with people of all faiths.

Of course 30 or 40 years ago when I was being raised we were still allowed to pray in school, so my opinion may be so outdated that I may be totally wrong, but I can live with that, it is just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Kokomojo:
I find it rather ironic, that when it comes to questions on parents attending practices and all the discussion on when junior gets to high school that many people on here say let the kid take care of his own business with the coach.

And then when it comes to bible study that all of a sudden the "young men" become "children, child, etc." that cannot take care of it themselves.

If those that feel that kids are old enough to handle the playing time politics, talking to the coach on his own, getting himself home, etc., then I think they can handle something like bible study.

I have been to many a religious studies over my many years including Islamic, Jewish and several Christian and have never attended ONE that could do physical damage to me. I did do many after practice/game activities in high school with friends drinking and partying that could have killed me and others because of it.

I schooled with all faiths through public school and college and I work with and for all types of religious individuals. One thing that I have found is that because of the strong religous upbringing I had from my parents that I am able to interact with people of all faiths.

Of course 30 or 40 years ago when I was being raised we were still allowed to pray in school, so my opinion may be so outdated that I may be totally wrong, but I can live with that, it is just my opinion.

Holy Mackeral - was that a thought-provoking and well-written post!

Other than one or two, I have enjoyed every post in this thread.

TPM,

The Koran happens to be one of the most beautiful pieces of writing in the world. I have no problem with the Koran being taught, in fact more should pick it up and take a peek at what is in there. I would have a problem if they were being taught terrorism based on twisting parts of the Koran or Torah or Bible. Those are two entirely different courses.

My son went to a private Southern Baptist college. He had never been in a church as we are atheists. I asked him how he felt about so much emphasis on religion at the college. He told me he would do what it takes. He didn't like it but he dealt with it including having to take a class in religion.
I have had friends of all religions including Muslims. I may not agree with religious views and in fact see religious differences as the main cause of wars etc, but I always try to be tolerant.

quote:

if your son came home and told you that one of his coachs (a practicing Muslim) was going to have Koran studies after practice (voluntary of course), what would you do?

I would let him knowing it would be educational.

We Would you all have an issue if it was a part of a Fellowship of Christian Athletes (FCA) chapter?

I attended a public high school. We always prayed before we headed out to the field to start the game.

Last year I spent the semester working at a Catholic high school. Every one of their sports began and ended a game with prayer. For a basketball game, they said a prayer over the PA before the national anthem. It was interesting the night that the local Lutheran school played at the Catholic school. The entire gym was in prayer at that point..


I'm not super religious, but I really don't see much issue with it. It just has to be very clear that it is truly optional.

quote:

Originally posted by Kokomojo:
TPM,

The Koran happens to be one of the most beautiful pieces of writing in the world. I have no problem with the Koran being taught, in fact more should pick it up and take a peek at what is in there. I would have a problem if they were being taught terrorism based on twisting parts of the Koran or Torah or Bible. Those are two entirely different courses.

You are correct, and you seem to be schooled in other faiths and tolerant. Others aren't. I was just trying to make a point.

I asked what are the circumstances, is it in the locker room or somewhere else. Of course going to the coaches house may raise some issues as well.

There is nothing wrong with prayer before a game, but I do have problem with it being specific in religious content. Has nothing to do with my beliefs, that's just how I feel.

It's good to have different opinions, mine is that no matter which bible the coach is going to have bible study from, I see no place for it at public school.

quote:

Originally posted by Kokomojo:
I find it rather ironic, that when it comes to questions on parents attending practices and all the discussion on when junior gets to high school that many people on here say let the kid take care of his own business with the coach.

And then when it comes to bible study that all of a sudden the "young men" become "children, child, etc." that cannot take care of it themselves.

I think inadvertently, you have struck at the heart of the problem.

On all athletic issues, it should absolutely be the relationship between the player and the coach. This however, has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with extracurricular activities of a totally divergent nature from athletics.

I would have the same thing to say, if the coach were running a group that wore their jock straps on their heads and made sounds like foraging elephants. It is inappropriate to provide this as a direct attachment to a sporting event and the fact that a number of players are participating in a coach led event makes it a peer/coach pressure and can no longer be considered elective, but quasi mandatory.

To me the religion aspect is circumstantial to the real problem.

My concern isn't someone showing my son a different faith or anything. I've let my son attend other churches or church functions with friends or girlfriend. I don't think it's a bad thing if he chooses to do these things.

I guess my concern is having a choice. If I sent him to a catholic school I would expect prayer or bible study. At a public school I don't expect it. I've been telling my son to be the first on and last one off the field. By having it right after practice at the field it seems like you can't help but feel pressure to stay.

If my son truly feels no pressure to attend and if the kids are treated the same if they attend or not. I guess I don't have an issue but I will be looking for that sort of thing.

Learning about other religions is one thing. It's another issue if the Bible study includes prayer. It's where a non Christian could be forced or feel pressured to pray to a savior his religion doesn't believe in. There's also the issue (and pardon me for saying this) of a possible accusation of praying to a false god if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior. There are Christians (and I'll say this politely) who feel the need to spread the word, sometimes against the wishes of those on the receiving end.

As for the question regarding the Methodist private school: It was a boarding school with short services three nights a week and a regular service on Sunday. Attendance was mandatory unless away for the weekend.

quote:

And then when it comes to bible study that all of a sudden the "young men" become "children, child, etc." that cannot take care of it themselves.

My son happens to be Christian. I married a Christian. But if he was Jewish or just chose not to attend I would be concerned there would be judgement that affects playing time. It wouldn't be something I intervene. I'd tell my son to talk to the AD or the principal. I've had my kids fighting their own fights on grades since middle school.

Aside from the philosophical debate, the bottom line is I don't believe the bible study attached to another extra curricular event and held on school property is acceptible by the laws of the state.

This isn't really a baseball question, is it?

What an interesting discussion! Why would we want to close this thread? I think everyone has discussed this in a very respectful way.

My take on the OP: I wouldn't like this any more than I would like an assistant coach holding optional "environmental studies" after baseball.

I'm totally on board with my son's baseball coaches teaching him all the baseball stuff they want, even if some of it I disagree with.

But let's just leave it at that.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
You sound a bit insecure with what you're teaching your son to be that upset over one time things at voluntary events. It's not like he's locked in a building owned by a cult and being brainwashed.

I'll ignore the "insecure" comment as that feels like bait and I agree with others that this has been a largely respectful and helpful conversation.

You touch on one of the key pieces of this discussion. No, my son hasn't been locked in a building, but the instances I have noted that upset me were times when he felt no choice but to participate in a religious ritual/event that he did not agree with or feel comfortable with. He felt little freedom to walk away as he feared that would ostracize him from the team.

When it comes to matters of faith, choice and freedom of conscience are essential elements. The coach/player relationship is one with such authority invested in it that a player doesn't always feel much freedom to say no when he disagrees with the way a coach is conducting himself.

I don't have much to add - lots of good stuff already stated. I will say, however, that parents need not be fearful that their kids will be vulnerable to indoctrination even if they are required or pressured to be involved in some type of religious activity, be it at a religious or secular institution.

My son plays ball at a Baptist university and is required to attend chapel twice a week. I have attended chapel a couple of times and I have never seen so many kids texting during the singing or presentations in all my life!

Have you ever noticed how disinterested many baseball players seem when the National Anthem is being played? Nothing -- not even required participation -- can force you to be loyal to a cause if your heart is not in it.

Nuff said.

Hot Corner, I didn't say insecure to bait or take a shot at you. So, sorry if it came across that way. The point I was trying to make, poorly I guess, was that simple exposure to things doesn't mean you have to agree with it or accept it as your own. You can enter those situations simply as a learning experience to understand how others think/believe. That's it. If you're held against your will, that's obviously a different matter. But when it's your choice, you can use the situation to make a choice on believing what you hear..if you want. Or, you can simply make a choice to learn what other think. Or, like Infield said, you can take it as an opportunity to tune out and catch up on texting.

Let the kids pray. It is not hard to simply not pay attention. And, from what I read originally, I do not view it as anything other than voluntary. It just does not strike me as a big deal either way.

My problem is when religion starts to filter into all facets of society. An example is the recent attempt of Muslims trying to set Sharia laws above the laws in Canada. They tried to say that all Muslims should be governed by Sharia Laws and actually tried to pass legislation giving Sharia law legal standing governing Muslims and allowing them to by pass Canadian laws.
As the immigration of Muslims into Canada accelerates you are seeing more and more influence exerted by these immigrants. Note the explosion of s****r.
These things concern me .

There is a time and a place for religion but one of them is not a baseball field

Our high school just got thru a few years of litigation with school prayer. All it did was cost us taxpayers millions for that fight. The coach had good intentions and runs an excellent program but the bottom line is the coach has no business conducting school prayer in the public school system. There are parochial schools they can coach at to do this. If the players want to do this and it's all voluntary, then that's their business.

All these posts are the reason 22's dad doesnt argue politics or religion. Not worth it. Play Ball!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Kokomojo:
I find it rather ironic, that when it comes to questions on parents attending practices and all the discussion on when junior gets to high school that many people on here say let the kid take care of his own business with the coach.

And then when it comes to bible study that all of a sudden the "young men" become "children, child, etc." that cannot take care of it themselves.

If those that feel that kids are old enough to handle the playing time politics, talking to the coach on his own, getting himself home, etc., then I think they can handle something like bible study.

AMEN! (sorry, I couldn't resist that) I guess I should be PC and say "I agree 100%".

Wow, what a bunch of angst, supposition, and stereotyping from people about a voluntary, once a week bible study hosted by an assistant coach. Maybe the guy is actually a rational adult who won't let whether a player participates or not influence how he perceives them as a baseball player. Nah, I guess a Christian could never do that.

WAG!

I believe there were kids cut from our high school's baseball program for not attending optional offseason workouts. My son was cut from basketball soph year after being the starting point guard on the freshman team for not attending optional workouts. If a coach has this much passion for his sport I can imagine how much passion a coach would have for religion should be implement optional bible study. I would be concerned a player is cut for not attending optional bible study. He could be judged not being complete person or a team player if most players are attending. It could be a tie breaker for positions or a roster spot between two players.

I'm going to ask a question and hopefully don't start a firestorm. This is for the very devout born agains and Baptists. Let's say the coach is Jewish. Jews do Bible study. The Old Testament is part of the Jewish religion. Let's say the coach is Jewish and runs a bible study from a Jewish point of view. Would you allow your son to attend? Afterall, the coach prays to a false god by denying Jesus as his savior. What if the coach is Mormon? an Islamic? a Hindu? a Buddist? a Sethian gnostic? What if he's a Scientologist?

This is not a set up to be judged. I'll respect an honest answer. The point I'm trying to make is these situations are usually only looked at from the non Christians on the outside looking in. What if it's you and your kids put in this position?

Thank you. What are everyone's thoughts on abortion? Just kidding..Play ball!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I believe there were kids cut from our high school's baseball program for not attending optional offseason workouts. My son was cut from basketball soph year after being the starting point guard on the freshman team for not attending optional workouts. If a coach has this much passion for his sport I can imagine how much passion a coach would have for religion should be implement optional bible study. I would be concerned a player is cut for not attending optional bible study. He could be judged not being complete person or a team player if most players are attending. It could be a tie breaker for positions or a roster spot between two players.

I'm going to ask a question and hopefully don't start a firestorm. This is for the very devout born agains and Baptists. Let's say the coach is Jewish. Jews do Bible study. The Old Testament is part of the Jewish religion. Let's say the coach is Jewish and runs a bible study from a Jewish point of view. Would you allow your son to attend? Afterall, the coach prays to a false god by denying Jesus as his savior. What if the coach is Mormon? an Islamic? a Hindu? a Buddist? a Sethian gnostic? What if he's a Scientologist?

This is not a set up to be judged. I'll respect an honest answer. The point I'm trying to make is these situations are usually only looked at from the non Christians on the outside looking in. What if it's you and your kids put in this position?

RJM - You might have just offended some Baptists by not including them as very devout born agains.

I'll answer your question, since I qualify as to who you were asking it to. If he absolutely wanted to, I guess I would. I would first have a conversation with him about the differences between our beliefs and the coach's beliefs and why we believe the way we do. I would also advise him not to go because of the differences, but if he absolutely wanted to I would allow him. Our family beliefs have to become his beliefs at some point, and maybe this would cement them for him.

My problem is your supposition that the real-life assistant coach in the original post can't separate the two. The facts are that there's absolutely no indication that the bible study is nothing more than voluntary.

WAG!

Son's HS team has a team huddle before games (no coaches) and then a player says a quick prayer. No big deal as the prayer is always about protection from injury for all players from both teams and fully utilizing the athletic gifts bestowed upon them. Pretty much a bland vanilla prayer. See many schools have similar player huddles before games.

As far as I know, our coaches could be Druids; I just don't know and haven't ever considered asking. Based on the practices and some of the language used, I seriously doubt religion affliation is on their minds when they speak to the team or individual players.

Do I think coaches should have "team meetings" that are religious based? No. Just too much opportunity for problems to arise from misperception and perceived favortism. I do like what Kokomojo said in his post.

Now, if the coaches were to have a prayer session with the umps before the game...nahhh, the animal sacrifices would have PETA up in arms. Guess we'll just leave the umps to their pagan ways. LOL.

quote:

I find it rather ironic, that when it comes to questions on parents attending practices and all the discussion on when junior gets to high school that many people on here say let the kid take care of his own business with the coach.

No. It's apples and oranges. If a coach from a public school system is found to be practicing religion and leading in the excercises, he's breaking the law. As harmless as it may seem, it's wrong and if the players themselves choose to voluntarily conduct some sort of religious or prayer exercise, then that's different.

As for going to a kid's baseball practice, a parent has no need to be a fence hanger. Players give kids the business when they see mom and dad hanging at the schoolyard eyeing down practice so it's best to just leave them be.

By devout born agains I meant the non denominiational fundamentalists and evangelicals.

Nothing wrong with it.

We need more of it in our schools systems, maybe thru the sports team is an avenue to get it back.

When I played Legion baseball during early-mid 80's, our coach always told us that we play for the best manager in the world, which was not our Head Coach but the good LORD above us as he always pointed upward to the sky. We allowed the good LORD to celebrate our success as we were playing through him.

ALL of the guys who played for our Legion coach had the utmost respect for him as he taught us just not baseball, but life long lessons.

quote:

Nothing wrong with it.

We need more of it in our schools systems, maybe thru the sports team is an avenue to get it back.

Sorry, but if the prayer meeting takes place on public school grounds, is led by a school-authorized coach, and does not have a distinct temporal and spatial separation from the game/practice (a school sanctioned activity), it is blantantly wrong!

That said, I'm glad that you, your teamates, and your coach were uplifted by the notion of playing for a higher entity. More power to you. Perhaps 20-30 years ago, such an approach was acceptable, but remember, 20-30 years before that, some persons were considered inferior just because of their appearance. Because it was once acceptable is not a justification to continue.

I'm not even going to read through this thread. This is ridiculous. I read wraggarm's first post and that's it for me. I tought this thread might actually have a chance to lead to a nice tempered discussion. Did you you really need to call someone out before any hint of an argument or dispute? I hate to be so judgemental, but seriously, that's the kind of stuff I learned was wrong in the third grade.

--------------------

quote:

Sorry, but if the prayer meeting takes place on public school grounds, is led by a school-authorized coach, and does not have a distinct temporal and spatial separation from the game/practice (a school sanctioned activity), it is blantantly wrong!

Chances are it's illegal. Those who feel it's right lack respect for people not like themselves.

[/QUOTE]Chances are it's illegal. Those who feel it's right lack respect for people not like themselves.[/QUOTE]

Based on the few facts that any of us know about this situation (in the original post) and your lack of knowledge about me and who I am as a person; I believe that is the most judgemental statement I've seen in a long time.

WAG!

As a person in an authority position over a student, it would be inappropriate for a coach or teacher to invite the student to a Bible study. It very well may be optional, but the perception will always exist that it is expected.

The coach should know better and no student or parent should feel that they have to compromise their principles or beliefs to deal with this.

You have my apology. How about if I change it to lack of respect for other people's religious beliefs? The reason being it's forcing people in a public environment (public school is a public environment) to pray to a god other than their own.

Started this at lunch, but it did not post. Well said WAG!

The whole premise in the OP is that attendance was voluntery. I would hope that a good majority of our ballplayers (young men & women), whatever their faith, could be able to study others faiths & be able able to understand the differences in respects to their own faith.

My youngest was asked to attend a Bible study this school year (before school) & eventually has become a regular attendee often helping lead the study. I'm very proud of his willingness to get up early & contribute in a group setting as he furthers his & others walk with the Lord. Many firmly believe it is because of his strong faith that he is known as a leader on & off the field, I only see the same kid. Before transferring from private Christian education, his Mother & I had a lot of questions, & prayed that his journey through public school would not be one into darkness but one full of opportunites. We prayed it would be one filled with the light, one filled with many other followers, & positive role models. Our own parenting is merely following several of the tenents of our own Christian faith: to nurture, to teach, to build up, & to send out. We can do nothing more as parents. My only regret is we did not do the same with our oldest son. He received a great Christian education, but missed out on a lot of opportunities to make even more friends, to lead by example, & to share his faith.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
As a person in an autority position over a student, it would be inappropriate for a coach or teacher to invite the student to a Bible study. It very well may be optional, but the perception will always exist that it is expected.

The coach should know better and no student or parent should feel that they have to compromise their principles or beliefs to deal with this.

BINGO! End of story.

quote:

the perception will always exist that it is expected

This is one of the sad directions the country has taken in the last 4 decades or so. A person's perception should not/does not define what is right and wrong. Just read this thread and you'll see about 50 different perceptions of the same thing. If you let perceptions dictate what's wrong, EVERYTHING will always be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

the perception will always exist that it is expected

This is one of the sad directions the country has taken in the last 4 decades or so. A person's perception should not/does not define what is right and wrong. Just read this thread and you'll see about 50 different perceptions of the same thing. If you let perceptions dictate what's wrong, EVERYTHING will always be wrong.

The problem is the perception of one person, the coach can determine the player's baseball future when religion should have nothing to do with the ability to play baseball.

Just because one person has a perception of something, doesn't make that something wrong...per se. All you have to do is look at states' laws on the same topics and you can different states perceive the same things differently.

As a coach I can tell you that I in fact use optional as a way to determine who is serious and who is not. If I say "Guys anyone wanting to get in some extra bp can come by the cages on Sunday afternoon. A couple of Sr's will be there to open up and throw. Anyone wanting to take advantage of this can. It's optional."

Now I will want to know who came. I will take really take notice of who does not. And it will influence my perception of the player or players that do not come. And I dont sugar coat it I will let the players know I know who came and who didnt. The ones that dont come on a routine basis better be hitting well. And if two guys are equal and I have to make a move the guy putting in the extra work is going to get the nod when a need to make a move.

Now if a coach says he is going to hold Bible Study after practice he is going to take notice of who came. During the course of these Bible studies there will be some interaction and some bonding will take place. This coach will also notice who does not attend. Will this possibly influence his opinion of a player who does attend? Will it influence his opinion of a player who does not? If two kids are very close in ability and he has to make a decision on a pinch hitter or a late inning replacement will he make a decision based on his new gained relationship through the Bible studies? I dont know. But he could. But it def could be percieved if he does make a move and the Bible study kid gets in before the non Bible study kid does.

Why put yourself in this posistion in the first place? Your a coach. If he wants to go to church , attend Bible study , etc etc - then that needs to be totally seperate from baseball and the coaches.

Anyone who thinks for one minute that a player would not feel pressure to attend is kidding themselves. Not unless they were entrenched as a starter and an upper classman and a mature person. And even that player could feel pressure to join in.

Its baseball. Its not Bible study time. You can teach life lessons through the game and I think you should as a coach. But its not your place to get into religion. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
How about if I change it to lack of respect for other people's religious beliefs? The reason being it's forcing people in a public environment (public school is a public environment) to pray to a god other than their own.

Thanks for the apology RJM; it's accepted. I still disagree with your statement, based on the facts (in the OP) of the situation as we know it. No one is being forced to do anything. It's a voluntary bible study and suppositions that it's anything more than voluntary are speculative. Maybe he's Jewish and they're studying the Old Testament from his perspective. There's nothing said about praying; although I'll give you that it's probably included.

WAG!

To assume that a coach will ostracize a player for not participating in a bible study is antithetical to living in a free country. A player can choose to attend or choose not to attend. As stated previously, we expect our sons to handle coaches on their own and contact college recruiters on their own, yet they are unable to handle a bible study decision? This is ridiculous!


We live in a country founded on Judeo Christian principals, and we are better for it. Jesus was Jewish and for centuries Christianity was considered a sect of the Jewish tradition. The first Christians were all Jewish. I fail to understand the division between Christians and Jewish people. We share a very similar faith. One still awaits a Messiah, and one believes he has arrived. Both expect the Messiah to have been born Jewish.


By the way for those who are confused Catholics are Christians and are responsible to some degree for maintaining and furthering the faith that allowed protestant denominations to be formed and break away. No one is perfect, all can be forgiven.

There is nothing wrong with a bible study, it is a GOOD thing. We now live in times where Good is called Evil and Evil is called Good. Examples abound, this thread is just one.

I am generally an intolerant person.

I remember when I sent my son to the local parochial school. It was OK when they played baseball at recess. But when the started to play "sokka", I got him the heck out of there.

Who needs that kind of influence?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Its baseball. Its not Bible study time. You can teach life lessons through the game and I think you should as a coach. But its not your place to get into religion. JMO

Now and everything else you stated is BINGO!

Thanks all for keeping this topic to a good discussion.

I understand what RJM is saying, for those that beleive that part of their faith has to do with educating others, that is not how it is done in many other faiths. If my son were asked to lead a bible study regarding his faith, he wouldn't do it, because it is personal, private and very complicated. Those things are left to those that teach it, study it, discuss and argue it among themselves within their own faith.

For those (not necessarily here) that think it is ok, remember that you are looking at it from your own personal point of view and your own perception of what your particular faith night do (spreading the word), perhaps not taking into account that this is not the way it is done in other faiths.

Good thread folks; what does it have to do with baseball? It's happening at lots of schools in various little ways.
My oldest boy used to really be irked that after football games they all prayed at the 50-yard line. Not because of prayer... he just felt it was insincere and made a big show (they just ran off the field after a loss)... He's a Christian and we play Bible trivia a lot... he could name you the 15 judges and the 12 tribes of Israel faster than Tim Tebow can leap a linebacker. He could name you the 66 books forward and then backward if you like...
It just bothered him the way a lot of guys acted all week in practice and then when they had an audience.... put on a big show.

I have not read all the posts on this topic as I usually don't get into the religion thing especially on public boards, but I'll just put this question out for perspective.

What if the coach was a muslim and wanted to do a quick Koran study after a practice that was totally voluntary. Would that be OK? Freedom of religion and all that.

I'm not a muslim by any stretch of the imagination, but would your perspective change if that was the case? What if your son felt a little pressure to attend? Would you want him attending that study? What if the coach put another kid into the game that was attending the Koran study, but your kid didn't attend. Would you feel the coach was being biased because of the other kids attendance at the Koran study?

Be honest with yourself. If your feelings change about the situation I mentioned, it should be the same for any religion we are talking about. I think most people here are christians so they see nothing really wrong with this happening. If it were turned around, would it be the same? Be honest now.

Just food for thought.

quote:

No. It's apples and oranges. If a coach from a public school system is found to be practicing religion and leading in the excercises, he's breaking the law.

Actually it is not, what would be against the law is the school/goverment trying to prevent a coach or teacher from studying religon and leading religeous excercises, away from school. They are individuals and have the right to practice their religion.
Just as a 17 year old kid has the right to not go or go if he wants to to a bible/koran/torah study.
As long as the kid keeps his grades up and finishes his chores around the house, and is home by 9 on a school night, if he wanted to go he can go.

If the coach was leading a study of the koran my son would not attend and not concern himself with it having an impact on his playing time.

If you can hit, you will play.

I had to really think about whether or not to join in on this topic. The best part of this post is we are able to have one in an open forum. The reason we have this opportunity is because our founding fathers using their strong religious beliefs set us up a free nation to worship as we please. I hate to point out that IMO the supreme court miss-interpreted the first amendment which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." This statement says that congress can not establish a religion nor can it make laws prohibiting free exercise of anyone to practice any faith. It says that the government cannot say if you live in the USA you will be governed by baptist beliefs...we believe that Jesus died for us... ETC ETC. However If it was not for the fundamental Christian beliefs of our forefathers in putting together our founding documents we would today be a split nation or nations, I firmly believe that by removing religious fundamentals and teachings of right and wrong ( not religion itself ) from our schools had made us a weaker nation. I also believe that it is my duty not anyone else to teach my children what I believe in such a way that they can stand on their own and not feel threatened by something different.



So I understand that teachers are paid by the government and hence people feel that because of that, then that employee should not be allowed to establish a religion. This coach is not ! He is exercising his right under the constitution to have free exercise to express is believe. If he wanted to call time out walk to the middle of the mound and drop to one knee to pray and ask anyone that wanted to join him come to the mound he would be exercising his right to do that. Not that this is not extreme example but is protected by the first amendment.



And if the coach did play favoritism which I doubt; you would have the right to exercise your choice to not play for that coach. Are you going to have the same reactions if your son/daughter gets into the work force and their boss has the ten commandments hanging in their office. Or call you into his office and sits you down then says excuse me, closes his eyes for a moment of silence to ask for help in making the correct decisions before your meeting.



It is also my opinion that no matter your religious belief or lack there of, if you are that concerned over this then maybe you are not as strong in your belief and have not conveyed that to junior as to feel threatened by something this simple. Someone strong in their belief - but not the same as the coach's would take the same time to step away and hold their own few moments of reflection.



At the very least the coach is protected by the same rules and laws that people who disagree are using to justify their viewpoint.

If he were teaching something other than our families beliefs then my opinion still has not changed. Rather than encouraging my son to attend as in the first example I would allow him the chance to make his own decision and explore other beliefs in the hope that he is understanding why we believe the way we do. I would encourage him to question anything he was confused about.



If the coach used this as a way to separate players and show favoritism the same coach could do the same thing without a bible study. He is in close contact with the kids on a daily basis and would be able to tell who is in line with his faith based on the way they present themselves, the language they use how they interact with others ETC.. We do the same thing in who we allow our kids to be around whether it is family like Aunt Mary that will spend all day trying to bring you to the lord and quoting verses or Bill the next door neighbor that has a Satanist shrine over his BBQ in the back yard, to the friends we let our kids hang around with.



The World is about choices and here is an opportunity for the kid to make one !

I had written a post about perception versus fact, etc. Faith was involved also along with Judeo-Christian principles, etc.

Absolute waste of time because this really isn't about faith or religion itself. It is about power and who wields it,their judgement and the potential for abuse.

Seperation of Church and State...noble concept in that the state shall not dictate or establish any religion, so that the state cannot abuse it's power as did England in the 1600-1700's (dates may be off). Caused the migration of English to the Americas in search of religious freedom. In this case the Coach is the State and the players are the Citizens (though captive as they cannot in most cases changes schools freely. Remember the Reserve Clause?).

The problem with the coach led Bible study isn't a problem with religion but rather the potential abuse of power.

Yes, it was voluntary in nature and nobody was pressured to attend as are the optional workouts and preseason conditioning players do. As Coach May said, he keeps track of those showing up at optional workouts...all coaches would keep track of this mentally. Does anyone really think a coach wouldn't know who shows up for his Bible studies that he is holding? Could those in attendance gain some favortism or positive perception from the coach?

Maybe...maybe not. Who knows if the coach is perfect and would never let his own opinion or perception overrule the facts or performance on the field. In reality his opinions could become self fulfilling as players opportunities may be predetermined based on the coaches opinion and perception of a player based on attendance of a Bible study. Far fetched; perhaps but to deny the possibility is naive as the coach is judge, jury and executioner of a captive audience that has no real alternative if they want to play baseball as they have no real choice on where they can play.

It is solely about power and the proper application of it's use.

bballman,
I already asked that question and didn't get any answers.

Floridafan,
I respect your opinion, but no it's not the same, judaism follows the old testament, christianity the new, there are major differences. There is nothing wrong with bible study, it just depends on whose and which bible you are studying. I agree that Judaism and Catholicism are very close in nature, but they don't try to influence each other, I think that the bigger arguments lie within different sects of chrisitianity (correct me if I am wrong) trying to influence one over the other, the same that differences lie between the different sects of judaism, trying to influence each other. Not sure if any are aware, but many very religious jews look down upon those that are not religious and do not follow the book of jewish law.
How about participation in a study where those of different religions taik about the diffferences and teach others tolerance? I don't see that done often. Our world might be a better place for it.

Regardless, doesn't belong on the baseball field.

As far as pre game prayers, as far as I know from son the term "the Lord" has always been used, which is universal in nature and should be unless the school has religious affiliations.

BTW, jewish scholars and teachers don't study the bible they study the Talmud, the book of laws, even among the different sects they argue on interpretation, which I beleive that faith is.

quote:

Originally posted by GovernorTim:

If he were teaching something other than our families beliefs then my opinion still has not changed. Rather than encouraging my son to attend as in the first example I would allow him the chance to make his own decision and explore other beliefs in the hope that he is understanding why we believe the way we do. I would encourage him to question anything he was confused about.

My kids have been to church, to temple, to mosques (sp) they have the right to explore and ask questions at the appropriate time at the appropriate places.
After baseball practice, IMO and most likely theirs as well is not the appropriate place.

Kids join sports teams to become a part of the team family and participate in a group activity, I know in my sons case his bond with his team makes the game more special, not wanting to participate, can set them apart from that group. So the not mandatory can become mandatory, in their opinion.

I am not sure why anyone doesn't understand this, we are approaching it with adult attitudes, not those of a teen.

quote:

It is also my opinion that no matter your religious belief or lack there of, if you are that concerned over this then maybe you are not as strong in your belief and have not conveyed that to junior as to feel threatened by something this simple. Someone strong in their belief - but not the same as the coach's would take the same time to step away and hold their own few moments of reflection.

There's a difference in what a teen student-athlete believes religiously, his right to believe it and the strength of his convictions, and feeling pressure to participate in another person's religious beliefs. Especially when the other person is an adult with power over his ability to play a game.

Kids also join cults like "Heaven's Gate" and "Jones Town".
They sucked people in on feeling they are part of a team.