Bible study after practice?

I am not sure what the laws are on this but I would think if it were completely voluntary then it might be ok. I could see an ACLU type possibly making some hay with it but I am not sure about that. Perhaps MidloDad or hokione or infielddad or some other resident lawyer here has a take.

My son went to a public college and they had a bible study group. He enjoyed participating even though it was not the denomination of Christianity he was raised. To lighten this topic up a little, I couldn't resist when he told me of his participation and threw a little off-color joke his way. I said what are you guys doing at the bible study - sitting around and praying for base hits?

He did not appreciate the humor very much

.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I am 100% against it. Every voluntary thing a coach asks is pretty much involuntary in my opinion. I will look after my own childrens religious background, thank you very much.

I agree. We raise our kids and I don't want religion pushed on them. It may be voluntary but is it really ?

Any activity that happens directly preceding or after an official sporting activity, that involves a bulk of the players, and led by a coach, is going to get viewed by everyone as mandatory.

Even if it isn't stated as such, what player doesn't want to be on the good side of the coach.

It's inappropriate as it is now and I would take issue with the administration about it. If it were to happen completely outside the realm of the sports activity, and it required a special trip to get there to participate, that's a whole different story.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I am 100% against it. Every voluntary thing a coach asks is pretty much involuntary in my opinion. I will look after my own childrens religious background, thank you very much.

Good points.

Perhaps issue #2 is how do you bring this up to the coach if you feel this is a bad idea?

If it was a player saying "Hey guys every ________ night I will be holding a bible study for the team at _________ and I would like anyone who wants to attend come." I think that would be awesome for the guys. But with it being a coach I can see where a kid or kids would feel pressured to attend. I think that it is best for the coaches to stay out of this type of thing.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

Bummer - this call for moderation will probably kill the religious slap-fight I was looking forward to watching. Guess I'll put the popcorn away.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

Perhaps issue #2 is how do you bring this up to the coach if you feel this is a bad idea?

Coach, I'm not here to discuss or debate, but your bible study group is inappropriate and can not continue when it is so closely connected to an official school activity. I'm not trying to be a hard a$$ about it, but if you continue, you'll leave me no choice but to take it up with school and district administration. I hope that you make a choice to disassociate with baseball at a great enough distance that these actions won't be necessary. Thanks for your time, goodbye.

I can see all of those points. I know that we are happy that son's college coach does a "chapel" on Sunday mornings before games (or I guess I should say before getting the field ready for home games) in the locker room, and at the motel on road trips. From what he says, completely voluntary, a good number show up, but by no means anywhere near 100%. This is a private school, with a religious affiliation, so definitely not the public school issues involved.

I can see issues being raised if it is held right before or after a required team practice/game. However, it is well established that a voluntary meeting for religious groups have to be accomodated in a public school setting, much as the various secular organizations.

If a player brings it up like that, CPLZ, he's running a high chance of being a marked man. Why not invite the AD to be there as practice ends on that day. Don't you think the AD would handle it without a player making it an issue? Being coach led is the key here on why I don't see it flying in a public school.

I just found out about it and I wasn't quite sure how to feel. I'm sure the intentions are good not trying to push them to one church or another. It's not the head coach, I don't want anybody in trouble or anything but I just don't see how kids would not feel like they have to participate.

quote:

Coach, I'm not here to discuss or debate, but your bible study group is inappropriate and can not continue when it is so closely connected to an official school activity. I'm not trying to be a hard a$$ about it, but if you continue, you'll leave me no choice but to take it up with school and district administration. I hope that you make a choice to disassociate with baseball at a great enough distance that these actions won't be necessary. Thanks for your time, goodbye.

"Thank you sooo much Mr. Parent for calling me out on this one. I'm afraid I may have gotten too carried away with my own religious interests, and may have put some boys in an awkward position on the team. But being a high-school baseball coach, I consider myself a pretty enlightened man, and I'm open to this kind of correction. And don't worry, I'm not the kind of person to retaliate with reduced playing time for something so significant as this. Your son will continued to be judged objectively based on talent alone. Good bye"

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I am 100% against it. Every voluntary thing a coach asks is pretty much involuntary in my opinion. I will look after my own childrens religious background, thank you very much.

Have to agree.....Our team has 4 Jewish kids, all starters...how could they "voluntarily" not participate?

You should know I already feel like an outsider from the team so. Picking a fight over this isn't my first choice.
If my son came and said after practice some of the guys from the baseball team want to get together and have a bible study at Jimmy's house. I would be suspicious but I'd probably let him go if he wanted to.
This is basically right after practice they sit on the bleacher by the field. He's been to bible study before with our church and said it was very similar. I'm not agaist religion or anything but just think there is a time and place for it.

"Good points.

Perhaps issue #2 is how do you bring this up to the coach if you feel this is a bad idea?"

Invite the coach over and say,"I appreciate how you are concerned about my childs moral and religious upbringing. Thank you very much. I am coming out after the next game to hold my own service for the boys to give you a break. I am a firm believer in volunteerism and religion."

Then you tell him you are a Satanist and ask him what part of the field does he want blessed with virgins blood. Fair is fair.

Thank you wraggArm for providing us with what the coach would most likely say and do. I'm certain there was noooooo...sarcasm whatsoever in that post.

More seriously, I'm not sure how to go about it without upsetting the assistant coach. Let's assume that he's doing this for the kids, has his heart in the right place and won't consciously retaliate. I think that's a pretty safe assumption but I still wouldn't want to take the risk. I guess you need to find a way to get the word to the head coach anonymously that there could be an issue here or perhaps the head coach just needs to make it clear that no one is going to benefit or suffer relative to baseball because they do or don't attend the bible sessions. Is that enough?

It is kind of sad because although I'm not much of believer myself I admire people who go out of their way to live their religious beliefs in a way that benefits others.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I was going to write an composed, articulate opinion. But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate, single me out again and nothing is done by moderators, I will compose a both guns blazing response when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater. I'm beginning to think this is a Christian only board since nothing is done about his remarks.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I was going to write an composed, articulate opinion. But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate and single me out again I will compose a both guns balzing reponse when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater.

Please, please, please let it go and be the bigger man here regardless of bigotry - real or perceived. If you have something to say to wraggarm, send it to him in a pm and don't do it here for show.

wraggarm - I can feel you workin it. Please let this go and perhaps you could be the bigger man here and apologize for any perceived wrongs that may have been committed. This is not a freak-show here.

Bas3balldad...I bet if you checked with the principal's assistant you would find there's some way of raising concerns anonymously for them to look into. You might consider leveraging that.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:

quote:

Coach, I'm not here to discuss or debate, but your bible study group is inappropriate and can not continue when it is so closely connected to an official school activity. I'm not trying to be a hard a$$ about it, but if you continue, you'll leave me no choice but to take it up with school and district administration. I hope that you make a choice to disassociate with baseball at a great enough distance that these actions won't be necessary. Thanks for your time, goodbye.

"Thank you sooo much Mr. Parent for calling me out on this one. I'm afraid I may have gotten too carried away with my own religious interests, and may have put some boys in an awkward position on the team. But being a high-school baseball coach, I consider myself a pretty enlightened man, and I'm open to this kind of correction. And don't worry, I'm not the kind of person to retaliate with reduced playing time for something so significant as this. Your son will continued to be judged objectively based on talent alone. Good bye"

My response was as a parent talking with the coach, not a player.

As to retaliation. I learned a long time ago, that I am not powerful enough to control people reactions to things I do or say. I certainly weigh the potential negative outcomes against the positive gain before undertaking a task. Each of us individually must assess these for themselves.

My personal view, is that much that is wrong with the world today is the result of fear. Fear of retribution, fear of attribute, and the worst, fear of losing something personal because of standing up for something fundamentally wrong.

Politicians give us lessons in this everyday. Rather than do the right thing, they serve themselves by voting in a manner that is self preservationist. Personally, my well being has never really been a concern. I've always considered myself smart enough, resourceful enough, and hardworking enough, to overcome any obstacle that someone might place in my way for standing up for what I believe in. The fear of loss is the big boogeyman in many peoples lives...not mine.

Been there, done that, gotten institutional retribution and survived it. I don't believe in teaching my kid to "take it" from someone just because they are in a position of authority. But that's just me.

Thinking about it clearly. I would have my son tell him that he wasn't interested. If the coach pressured him I would tell him to wlak away. Then I would meet with the coach and I would tell him to go (fill in the blank) himself and then proceed to the AD, school board, local paper and do my best to get him fired.

Did I mention that I don't care for religion to be mixed in with baseball?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Bas3balldad...I bet if you checked with the principal's assistant you would find there's some way of raising concerns anonymously for them to look into. You might consider leveraging that.

Maybe but it's a small town, coach lived there most of his life, and I moved here a year ago. Somehow I see it getting back to him. I haven't decided if I care he knows or not but I'm pretty sure my kid would care.

quote:

Originally posted by Bas3balldad:
I know this is going to be a touchy subject to some but I'm just looking for some feedback no agenda.

My son goes to a public school and he mentioned to me the other day that once a week they have been having bible study after practice. One of the coaches is a minister or something. It's not required or anything that I know of.

I don't really have an issue if he wants to attend but it just seemed like something a public school coach would shy away from.

The bible study is an extra curricular event that has nothing to do with playing baseball. In order for an event like this to be held it probably needs to be with the permission of the school district, possibly with board approval. Parents should be notified the event occurs. It should be held away from practice so none of the players feel any pressure to attend.

I wonder if the coach believes the bible study is part of team bonding. If he does, I'm going to guess it would be considered discriminatory against non Christians and not be allowed. He would probably be told to have a BBQ or something else everyone on the team would be comfortable attending. There also may be Catholics or Christians who prefer not to attend due to the denomination of the coach/pastor. Or as one poster commented, religion is his family's business not the coach's.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate, single me out again and nothing is done by moderators, I will compose a both guns blazing response when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater.

Ok, I'll go PM RJM - looks like we need to kiss and make up for that zinger.

But seriously. Dude. As I said before...there was nothing anti-Semitic in that post. I was making fun of you for being too zealous and wearing it on your sleeve, just like I would for any Christian nut.

I'll be happy to PM anyone the original text, as it was posted upon request. But the one thing I am not is a Jew-hater.

The "agitator" accusation, however, is probably accurate.


Sorry, RJM, you're just not as persecuted here as you're fantasizing.

quote:

Sorry, RJM, you're just not as persecuted here as you're fantasizing.

I can feel the sincerity. Don't bother. Being on the receiving end of anti-Semitic remarks (deleted in the last thread with religion) isn't a fantasy. People like you just never get it. You are who you are. You hate Jews. I can accept that. I can accept you'll burn in hell too.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
.
Surely RJM's about to weigh in...
.

You know what - I would ask RJM to kindly bow out of it then if it is going to get him all upset. It is a legitimate topic and can be calmly discussed between members - regardless of their religious background. He might even have an interesting take on this one.

I was going to write an composed, articulate opinion. But since Wraggarm previously made anti-Semitic posts against me and now wants to agitate, single me out again and nothing is done by moderators, I will compose a both guns blazing response when I'm prepared to do so. He's an obvious Jew hater. I'm beginning to think this is a Christian only board since nothing is done about his remarks.

First, IMO. wraggArm should be banned from this site for trying to start up when this was finished a month ago (not to mention that RJM was not the only one upset with his comments from that topic, jews and non jews, and yes he made anti semitic remarks), also for his scarcastic reply to CPLZ. Just goes to show who wants to start trouble around here.

Second why would RJM not be allowed to post his comments on the OP's topic, I didn't see anything that would get him upset? Even if he did, he has a right to view his opinions, seems like everyone else can as long as you aren't of THAT faith, huh? I don't blame him for being ticked off.

This topic has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs, but whether this is appropriate behavior for a coach at a public school. Let him go minister at his church, not after baseball practice. Good points here, these are young kids, they look at things differently, they may feel they might get left behind if they don't participate. I'd be the first one in the AD's office, and not because of my religious beliefs.

In public school there is seperation from church and state, he has no business, no coach at any public institution has any right to hold bible study, regardless of it being mandatory or not.

If this discussion gets ugly, I am closing it.

In my book there is no place for religion on the baseball field

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

If this discussion gets ugly, I am closing it.

No, please don't. I'll bow out now.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
In my book there is no place for religion on the baseball field

There is if the school is private and religiously affiliated. I attended a Methodist based private school one year. By attending a private school my parents chose I would follow their rules. I had to attend church four days a week. I didn't have to bow my head or participate in the prayers. I just had to respect I was in a church that was important to most of the participants. I know of Catholic schools who have prayers in the dugouts before games.

I vote for closing the thread.

I am talking public schools

Private or religious affiliated schools are another ball of wax

What is with the closing of threads !!!!---do we not have debate here any longer!

Let me preface my response by saying I am an ordained Baptist minister. With that said, I have been furious for years at the compulsory religious practices forced upon my son in baseball venues: prayers before games, overt religious proselytizing by a showcase coach, a sermon preached at a baseball tournament banquet sponsored by the local public school system.

So, as a Christian, why am I upset that other Christians are conducting themselves in this fashion? Because I do not send my son to baseball to be coerced into certain religious viewpoints. My wife and I, and our church, are responsible for teaching him the tenets of our faith. Those tenets are the most important thing in our lives. We are happy to send him to baseball to learn how to hit, field, and throw. When coaches and others dare to push their particular religious views on him, though, they have violated a sacred boundary.

"Furious" is a surprising choice of words. Are you a currently practicing minister?

RJM - I know you are Jewish and all, but dude a Methodist school and they made you go 4 times a week? Seriously?


Don't tell my church. We are more into a weekly suggestion. :-)

quote:

My personal view, is that much that is wrong with the world today is the result of fear. Fear of retribution, fear of attribute, and the worst, fear of losing something personal because of standing up for something fundamentally wrong.

I will add fear of sharing your faith. There was a time when Judeo-Christian values were the foundation of core principles in the lives of Americans. We were a better country then.

I applaud the coach for taking the initiative to lead these young men. By description and admission of bas3balldad this is a voluntary study. Since we are 'observing' this activity from such a great distance it is unfair for us on the board to judge the intentions and motivation of the coach. If subsequent actions reveal that this study is not voluntary then action should be taken. Until then, I see many posters here trying to create fire where there is no smoke.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
"Furious" is a surprising choice of words. Are you a currently practicing minister?

I have been a pastor for eighteen years and recently retired from my church to open a pastoral counseling practice. "Furious" is exactly how I have felt when someone was presumptuous enough to force their religious views on my child. My son's religious/spiritual instruction is more important to me than anything else and I don't entrust it to just anyone.