@anotherparent posted:Where? Can you give us a citation?
This is not a research article, but issues with the JAMA article are reviewed by medical professionals.
https://www.si.com/college/mic...coronavirus-harbaugh
*I forgot to add the article, sorry
@anotherparent posted:Where? Can you give us a citation?
https://jamanetwork.com/journa.../fullarticle/2770026
Here are the important lines from the retraction:
There were no differences between those with COVID-19 and the risk factor–matched patients.
However, only the comparison for left ventricular mass index between those with COVID-19 and healthy controls changed from a significant to a nonsignificant association.
However, the corrected findings no longer show higher left ventricular mass in these patients.
@RoadRunner posted:This is not a research article, but issues with the JAMA article are review by medical professionals.
Destruction of our athletic institutions is just one of the many casualties created by bad science in this pandemic. Unfortunately, many of our medical professionals have been complicit in bad science. It is unfair to our politicians and general public to hold them solely accountable. But we would be much better served by common sense than " the science".
One of my all time favorites, George Carlin, sharing a little common sense and describing our ridiculous Covid -19 response two decades before it happened.
I find it disappointing that some people in this forum and nationwide are applying the “bad science” term to anything that turns out to be incorrect re: COVID-19.
Science, by definition, is constantly testing & proving/disproving theories/findings. That’s one of the key fundamentals that separate science from faith/religion. what separates When a finding is shown by new research/evidence to be wrong, and practices change, that’s “good science” at work. Calling it otherwise is a disincentive to advancing knowledge, and is part of what hinders human advancement.
@Senna posted:I find it disappointing that some people in this forum and nationwide are applying the “bad science” term to anything that turns out to be incorrect re: COVID-19.
Science, by definition, is constantly testing & proving/disproving theories/findings. That’s one of the key fundamentals that separate science from faith/religion. what separates When a finding is shown by new research/evidence to be wrong, and practices change, that’s “good science” at work. Calling it otherwise is a disincentive to advancing knowledge, and is part of what hinders human advancement.
Based on this response, I can tell that you did not read the articles😔
@@Roadrunner I did, actually. And the final paragraph is pretty much what solidifies it for me:
”Murthy is a leading expert in the field, and he is not convinced that the JAMA study is conclusive or even entirely accurate and therefore cannot be used as a legitimate, authoritative review of COVID-19 and myocarditis.”
So it’s good science. The Frankfurt study was done. Dr Murthy has pointed out flaws in it. With luck, new studies will take place and find that the JAMA article was right, Dr Murthy was right, or (most likely) it’s somewhere in the middle. And we will keep learning.
If the Frankfurt study turns out to be fixed (like the Wakefield MMR study), then this case will indeed be bad science. But until then, it’s, at worst, science.
Or did I miss the part where Soros fixed the results?
@Senna posted:...With luck, new studies will take place and find that the JAMA article was right, Dr Murthy was right, or (most likely) it’s somewhere in the middle. And we will keep learning.
????
I'm confused, are you stating that you hope new studies will confirm long-term, potentially fatal myocarditis as a complication of Covid? I hope not.
@Pedaldad posted:????
I'm confused, are you stating that you hope new studies will confirm long-term, potentially fatal myocarditis as a complication of Covid? I hope not.
As a strawman? No. Thanks for playing.
But if you’re asking if I’d rather have knowledge or not? I choose knowledge., no matter how displeasing. I’d love to know whether our young athletes are at risk for XX, YY, or ZZ complication from this. Informed decisions come from that.
No small part of our decision to reduce our son’s exposure by having him do digital learning is due to a small but not insignificant family history (mother, uncle, grandfather) of congenital heart issues that have not turned up until later in life.
I hope everyone understands that I’m not just battlIng here to be right on a forum that nobody really gives a f**k about. Believe me, I want nothing more than my (schoolteacher) wife and (HS) children roll go back to their lives circa January 2020. I’m just trying to do my part to help people make informed decisions based on the best, most valid knowledge available at the time. And sometimes those are based on an abundance of caution. The best part of that? More people are often alive to say “You were wrong”.
@Senna posted:As a strawman? No. Thanks for playing.
But if you’re asking if I’d rather have knowledge or not? I choose knowledge., no matter how displeasing. I’d love to know whether our young athletes are at risk for XX, YY, or ZZ complication from this. Informed decisions come from that.
No small part of our decision to reduce our son’s exposure by having him do digital learning is due to a small but not insignificant family history (mother, uncle, grandfather) of congenital heart issues that have not turned up until later in life.
I hope everyone understands that I’m not just battlIng here to be right on a forum that nobody really gives a f**k about. Believe me, I want nothing more than my (schoolteacher) wife and (HS) children roll go back to their lives circa January 2020. I’m just trying to do my part to help people make informed decisions based on the best, most valid knowledge available at the time. And sometimes those are based on an abundance of caution. The best part of that? More people are often alive to say “You were wrong”.
You should know that less than 0.2% of Covid deaths have occurred to those 24 or younger, or about 300. During that time more kids that age have died of suicide, cancer and many other causes. The over-reaction to the dangers of Covid to those under 80 has been massive.
Thanks @Smitty28. But apparently I’m derailing this again. Bye....
@Smitty28 posted:You should know that less than 0.2% of Covid deaths have occurred to those 24 or younger, or about 300. During that time more kids that age have died of suicide, cancer and many other causes. The over-reaction to the dangers of Covid to those under 80 has been massive.
Smitty, don't let the facts get in he way of a liberals fears. November 3 he will no longer be afraid.
and I believe the 0.2 rate is actually falling but again details details
@RoadRunner posted:Based on this response, I can tell that you did not read the articles😔
The JAMA correction includes this as its final paragraph:
"We are pleased to confirm that reanalysis of the data has not led to a change in the main conclusions of the study. As we originally reported, compared with healthy controls and risk factor–matched controls, patients recently recovered from COVID-19 had lower left ventricular ejection fraction, higher left ventricle volume, and elevated values of T1 and T2. However, the corrected findings no longer show higher left ventricular mass in these patients. We confirm that there are no other errors."
I agree that they made mistakes, and it is inexcusable that JAMA published the original article. However, at least when the mistakes were pointed out, the authors did a re-analysis, and publicly said what they had done wrong, and what happened when they corrected it.
Whether this was the piece that convinced the Big 10 to cancel is an interesting question, and I do entirely agree that the Big 10 should have explained very clearly what their rationale was. I also wonder whether the commissioner was to blame, or whether he was getting a lot of pressure from the college presidents, who are worried about more things than just sports.
I'm sorry I clicked on this thread again
@anotherparent posted:
Whether this was the piece that convinced the Big 10 to cancel is an interesting question, and I do entirely agree that the Big 10 should have explained very clearly what their rationale was. I also wonder whether the commissioner was to blame, or whether he was getting a lot of pressure from the college presidents, who are worried about more things than just sports.
I was going to post this point earlier too. It felt like to me that they made the decision to cancel football, then there was outrage and the next day they pointed out myocarditis as one of the reasons. It felt like a cover story but they really might have considered it. I believe parents are asking for meeting notes/minutes of the B10 "vote" meeting and how they came to the conclusion but the B10 is resisting. It's one big mess.
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:I was going to post this point earlier too. It felt like to me that they made the decision to cancel football, then there was outrage and the next day they pointed out myocarditis as one of the reasons. It felt like a cover story but they really might have considered it. I believe parents are asking for meeting notes/minutes of the B10 "vote" meeting and how they came to the conclusion but the B10 is resisting. It's one big mess.
when you make halfass choices for the wrong reasons and then get called out on them...it is difficult to look good.
Kind of funny regardless of how this season plays out.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Kind of funny regardless of how this season plays out.
Big 12 guy appears...*Dramatic music appropriate for a ten team conference*
https://www.centredaily.com/sp...rticle245448050.html
During a State College Area school board of directors, Wayne Sebastianelli — Penn State’s director of athletic medicine — made some alarming comments about the link between COVID-19 and myocarditis, particularly in Big Ten athletes. Sebastianelli said that cardiac MRI scans revealed that approximately a third of Big Ten athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 appeared to have myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle that can be fatal if left unchecked.
“When we looked at our COVID-positive athletes, whether they were symptomatic or not, 30 to roughly 35 percent of their heart muscles (are) inflamed,” Sebastianelli said. “And we really just don’t know what to do with it right now. It’s still very early in the infection. Some of that has led to the Pac-12 and the Big Ten’s decision to sort of put a hiatus on what’s happening.”
“You could have a very high-level athlete who’s got a very superior VO2 max and cardiac output who gets infected with COVID and can drop his or her VO2 max and cardiac output just by 10 percent, and that could make them go from elite status to average status,” Sebastianelli said. “We don’t know that. We don’t know how long that’s going to last. What we have seen is when people have been studied with cardiac MRI scans — symptomatic and asymptomatic COVID infections — is a level of inflammation in cardiac muscle that just is alarming.”
Spurs some questions:
I wonder if he compared them against the heart MRI's he took when these athletes came to campus like I am sure they do (sarc). Also real surprising this drops today since the presidents are voting again tomorrow where I would expect them to reverse course and play.
* He has corrected some of that article - he doesn't know how many B10 athletes with Covid had MRI's, admits it wasn't all as stated above and doesn't know the number but still says a third of whatever that number had this condition.
*Second admits many experts see this finding as incidental and expects athletes to be able to play after it clears up.
*Myocarditis is a known condition that can be treated. If the virus causes it in some cases and they won't let players play with Covid then they have the mitigation they need.
College and pro lineman build themselves up to a point that places strain on their heart. I wonder how much effect COVID has on the heart of a 275-325 pound linemen.
Joe Thomas as a 330 pound All Pro ...
Joe Thomas after getting down to the weight his doctor recommended post retirement ...
Ohio State opened up last week now has about 900 cases.
Football team lives in a bubble so I heard.
@Smitty28 posted:You should know that less than 0.2% of Covid deaths have occurred to those 24 or younger, or about 300. During that time more kids that age have died of suicide, cancer and many other causes. The over-reaction to the dangers of Covid to those under 80 has been massive.
Well, as long as Covid has only killed 300 more kids than would have otherwise died, I guess that's no big deal, then.
It's not like we do anything to stop kids from dying of suicide, or cancer, or many other causes.
I mean everyone who died of Covid was eventually going to die anyway. Fuck it, let's party.
Why do we stop baseball games when we hear thunder? How many kids would actually be struck by lightning? Of course, we don't know, because we do stop the games.
Average of 32 fatalities from lightning per year in the US (since 2006), after all. That's way less than 300. Oh wait, maybe it's lower because people do take precautions.
@jacjacatk posted:Well, as long as Covid has only killed 300 more kids than would have otherwise died, I guess that's no big deal, then.
It's not like we do anything to stop kids from dying of suicide, or cancer, or many other causes.
I mean everyone who died of Covid was eventually going to die anyway. Fuck it, let's party.
Why don't you point out every other cause of death for people under the age of 24 and lets put a stop to those actives too. While your at it, why not stop all activities that could cause death to a person of any age. Even a single death from any cause is too many, right?
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:
where does this come in on the "follow the science" meter? LOL what a joke
@anotherparent posted:Why do we stop baseball games when we hear thunder? How many kids would actually be struck by lightning? Of course, we don't know, because we do stop the games.
Average of 32 fatalities from lightning per year in the US (since 2006), after all. That's way less than 300. Oh wait, maybe it's lower because people do take precautions.
Yes because waiting a half hour or playing tomorrow is the same as shutting down the world, growth, education and life in general for a year or more because there is a black cloud in the sky.
@jacjacatk posted:Well, as long as Covid has only killed 300 more kids than would have otherwise died, I guess that's no big deal, then.
It's not like we do anything to stop kids from dying of suicide, or cancer, or many other causes.
I mean everyone who died of Covid was eventually going to die anyway. Fuck it, let's party.
@anotherparent posted:Why do we stop baseball games when we hear thunder? How many kids would actually be struck by lightning? Of course, we don't know, because we do stop the games.
Average of 32 fatalities from lightning per year in the US (since 2006), after all. That's way less than 300. Oh wait, maybe it's lower because people do take precautions.
More kids will be killed riding their bikes to school this year than by covid or lightning. Do we ban bikes? Maybe just ban in-person school and keep them home, then we don't have to worry about covid or getting hit by a car while riding their bike. Actually, they likely won't be killed by lightning either at home.
"Each year about 100 children are killed and 254,000 are injured as a result of bicycle-related accidents." Although it doesn't say anything about riding to school, as such.
https://www.stanfordchildrens....statistics-90-P02853
Oh wait, don't we require bicycle helmets now?
If you're going to quote numbers, then show us the numbers. In fact, I agree that the numbers show that children and young adults aren't severely affected by COVID. However, those kids don't live by themselves, that's the difference between them and young adults/college students.
My point is simply that we do try to keep people safe when it is possible to do so. It's all a risk-benefit calculation. The whole problem with this NEW virus is that the full scale of risks has not been well understood. The Big Ten's argument seems to be that the risks for athletes getting COVID is still unknown. Once the other conferences start playing, we will all know what the risks actually are, and the Big Ten will either be shown to have been right, or wrong. Until that happens, though, it's just speculation.
Back to the B10 - Both the Big 10 and Pac 12 successfully got their cover stories out yesterday. The B10 with the myocarditis and then the retraction and the P12 with the announcement of rapid covid testing now possible. Now that the cover stories are out of the way the B10 will vote to play in the fall and start in early October (they have too start this early to get in semifinals) and the P12 will meekly follow them to play. I would be shocked at any other outcome.
@TPM posted:Ohio State opened up last week now has about 900 cases.
Football team lives in a bubble so I heard.
Our local D3 opened with everyone required to wear a mask anytime they are out of their dorm rooms, limit gatherings, including the number of people allowed to attend in person classes held inside. Fortunately, we've had great weather and the campus has had many classes outside, in person, with mask with students socially distanced.
Students were required to self isolate and report health symptoms for two weeks before coming to campus. The first weekend several were sent home to self isolate after failing to following COVID requirements. They'll be able to come back in a couple of weeks.
I walk on campus, saw couples sitting and studying together outside, wearing masks. We covered a protest on campus Wednesday where 300 students showed up. I didn't see a single person without a mask. Now townspeople who walk on the campus are wearing masks because we want to support what the college is trying to do.
Two weeks in, they have had 8 positive tests. They hope to soon move to a more relaxed set of protocols that would allow bigger gatherings of students. In the meantime, our two big state schools have almost no protocols and are national leaders in cases of COVID.
It's too soon to declare victory, but I'm really excited by what they've been able to achieve here — and it's a huge financial benefit to our community that relies on the economic impact of these students.
The reluctance to implement or follow safety protocols that work is just incredibly frustrating.
@anotherparent posted:"Each year about 100 children are killed and 254,000 are injured as a result of bicycle-related accidents." Although it doesn't say anything about riding to school, as such.
Masks for Covid = helmets for bicycles. And by your own statement kids with helmets still die riding a bike. Therefore bicycles should be banned. I get it.
@Smitty28 posted:Masks for Covid = helmets for bicycles. And by your own statement kids with helmets still die riding a bike. Therefore bicycles should be banned. I get it.
I bike almost any day the weather permits. I bike about 4,000 miles per year. I don’t wear a helmet. I wouldn’t consider not wearing gloves. When you get knocked off a bike you land on your hands. How you roll determines how badly you get hurt.
Despite wearing gloves, last month I still got three small fractures in my hand, a dislocated finger and badly torn ligaments. It’s the first time I've been dumped (sideswiped or slammed on brakes when cut off and went over handlebars) and injured (versus damn, that hurts a lot).**
Life is about risk. Even the government calculates acceptable death totals. Otherwise the speed limit on interstates would be 15 mph.
** A drawback of being left handed is those are the front brakes. A couple of times I’ve hit the front brakes harder than the back.
@Senna posted:No small part of our decision to reduce our son’s exposure by having him do digital learning is due to a small but not insignificant family history (mother, uncle, grandfather) of congenital heart issues that have not turned up until later in life.
This is what I find interesting. Not trying to pick on this poster or say they are wrong. But..
So there is a history of a heart issue in the family. Three people in the family tree isn't a lot but it's there. Covid can affect the heart, but so can other illnesses (H1N1). To what extent is debatable and my understanding is it is treatable. So covid affecting the heart now very well may be irrelevant later in life. Keeping all that in mind, putting a percentage of the chances this young man gets this issue, also comes down with covid that affects the heart, and that effect would last latter in life to coincide with the aforementioned ailment, would be difficult. But I would assume the number would be lower than a lot of things people do on a daily, weekly, monthly bases, like say drive a car. Things we don't give a second thought to.
Like I said, not trying to call this poster out. I know a lot of people with this mindset. The perceived threat just doesn't match reality. Drinking kills more people. Or smoking, or hell even Mcdonalds. You have to wear a mask to go to the convenience store to buy cigarettes. There's irony in that.
@RJM posted:** A drawback of being left handed is those are the front brakes. A couple of times I’ve hit the front brakes harder than the back.
I don't bike and I know adjusting the front brakes to the point they lock the tire up can lead to a crash and burn situation.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:I don't bike and I know adjusting the front brakes to the point they lock the tire up can lead to a crash and burn situation.
I had the brakes adjusted so the front aren’t as tight.
Too many people in the country are obese. It probably has scared a lot of people during COVID.
I wonder how many people have been scared enough to do something about their health. I’ll bet it’s not many. It will be like the 90% of people who join a health club in January and never see the place by February.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:This is what I find interesting. Not trying to pick on this poster or say they are wrong. But..
So there is a history of a heart issue in the family. Three people in the family tree isn't a lot but it's there. Covid can affect the heart, but so can other illnesses (H1N1). To what extent is debatable and my understanding is it is treatable. So covid affecting the heart now very well may be irrelevant later in life. Keeping all that in mind, putting a percentage of the chances this young man gets this issue, also comes down with covid that affects the heart, and that effect would last latter in life to coincide with the aforementioned ailment, would be difficult. But I would assume the number would be lower than a lot of things people do on a daily, weekly, monthly bases, like say drive a car. Things we don't give a second thought to.
Like I said, not trying to call this poster out. I know a lot of people with this mindset. The perceived threat just doesn't match reality. Drinking kills more people. Or smoking, or hell even Mcdonalds. You have to wear a mask to go to the convenience store to buy cigarettes. There's irony in that.
Uhhh, I'm guessing the concern is probably much more about the son becoming infected and then inadvertently infecting one of the compromised older family members, which is the very valid concern that so many want to gloss over.
@RJM posted:I had the brakes adjusted so the front aren’t as tight.
Probably a dumb question, but is it possible to rout the back break cable to the left hand and the front to the right hand?
@cabbagedad posted:Uhhh, I'm guessing the concern is probably much more about the son becoming infected and then inadvertently infecting one of the compromised older family members, which is the very valid concern that so many want to gloss over.
Bit of both, really. And the "perceived threat" is still relatively unknown (this virus is still being studied). Erring on the side of caution when the results can be the same either way is a prudent choice.
That said, we have made the decision to shift both of our kids back to in-person, as we're finding that the results aren't going to be the same. Just going to have to adapt as best we can. We're just fortunate we have the choice, and (hopefully) the ability to navigate it safely. Not everyone is so lucky on either front.
