Body weight and exit velocity correlation

Randy Sullivan of the Florida Baseball Armory did a study that showed the correlation to weight and pitching velo stopped at 175 lbs. I'm confident that doesn't transfer over to exit velo

There is no correlation of body weight and exit velo, the factor here (apart other things like technique) is maximum strength, it just happens to be that strength correlates very well with muscle mass, i. E. More muscle mass means you are generally stronger.

But there is no direct effect of body mass affecting exit velo, it is an indirect effect over strength.

That being said it is very rare that someone under 170 pounds has the strength to generate pro level in game exit velo (108+ mph) and really for elite in game EV above 110 or so it is hard to do under 190 or so.

Btw I definitely think there are hitters with a better ratio than you mentioned.

I don't have tee EVs for pros but there are pros at 170 who can hit 108 in game which should be like 98-99 off the tee.

Weight to exit velocity ratios don’t matter. What matters is your son’s exit velocity versus the recruits he’s competing against at whatever division level.

Even at the high school and travel level it starts being about optimizing ability versus the players he’s competing against.

My son was the last cut from varsity freshman year. He had just had a growth burst from 5’4” to 5’11”. But he hadn’t put on weight and muscle yet. He weighed 135. I asked him why he thought he didn’t make varsity. I already knew the answer. Fortunately my son got it. He answered, upper body strength and the ability to drive the ball hard. It became his focus going forward for soph year when he made all conference.

Fortunately, 17u programs looked at what he was doing on the field in 16u and recruited him after that 5’11” 135 post freshman summer. They were banking on him putting in the work.

No science here, just opinion. It seems to me there are kids, not relative to size that just have better transfer of energy. Obviously bat speed matters, but natural inertial transfer seems like a real thing.

Posts like the OP make my head want to explode. Metrics, metrics, metrics! After the fact many will learn that this is not the thing to focus on.

@JucoDad posted:

No science here, just opinion. It seems to me there are kids, not relative to size that just have better transfer of energy. Obviously bat speed matters, but natural inertial transfer seems like a real thing.

Fast twitch vs slow twitch muscle fibers. It's usually agreed upon that most people are born with equal amounts, but this isn't true for all cases. Combine that with the skill of being able to consistently find "perfect, perfect", then you have the rare 150lb guy with 90mph EV off a tee. 

"So, if you are 150 pounds, you could expect to have an exit velocity (tee or soft toss) of around 75 MPH." 

I'm kinda doubting the validity of this. My 2023 measured 87mph and 89mph off tee at events when he was 150-155lbs.  He's 165 now but we stopped measuring (or caring) because once you are above average bat speed, it really doesn't matter for recruiting. 

Let me clarify a couple of things in my post.

First, I meant to suggest that 1 pound of body mass to .5 MPH exit velocity is a sort of benchmark or average. The range is going to be something like 1 pound  to anywhere from .4 to .6 MPH. That accounts for a 150 pound kid at 89 mph, which is a .59 ratio. But from the data I looked at, that is a pretty rare combination of bodyweight and exit velocity for high school players.

Second, I agree that strength is the key component, not necessarily body weight. But, in general, strength corresponds pretty well with body weight. However, a 150 pound kid who is overweight is  going to have a lower exit velocity to body weight ratio than a 150 pound kid who is all lean muscle. Kids who are all lean muscle, or "fast twitch" kids are definitely going to be on the upper end of the range in the ratio.

Lastly, the only reason I brought it up at all is that I think if you can quantify the amount of body weight necessary to get a certain amount of velocity gain, it is a great motivator. For my son, we can take a pretty good guess that if he gains 20 pounds of natural growth (he's still gaining height) and by working hard in the gym and goes from 160 to 180, he will gain somewhere around 10 MPH in max exit velocity. That takes him from 80 mph to 90 mph. That represents a potential very big difference in on the field performance.

A  weight to EV calculation is a good motivator (if you get bigger and stronger you will hit it further) but it also oversimplifies things. Being strong is important but so is being quick, being  able to find barrels, wrist strength…etc.  Even bat speed is not just a function of weight. There is also a huge difference between EV off a tee or in BP vs. EV in a game. Having said all that, one of PTWoodson’s focuses in the off season is to get back up to “fighting weight” of 240. He dropped down almost 20 pounds over the course of the season. His top EV at 19 yrs old was 114.3 and prospects live had him at 107.9 for the season (I don’t know what goes into that calculation).

@PTWood posted:

A  weight to EV calculation is a good motivator (if you get bigger and stronger you will hit it further) but it also oversimplifies things. Being strong is important but so is being quick, being  able to find barrels, wrist strength…etc.  Even bat speed is not just a function of weight. There is also a huge difference between EV off a tee or in BP vs. EV in a game. Having said all that, one of PTWoodson’s focuses in the off season is to get back up to “fighting weight” of 240. He dropped down almost 20 pounds over the course of the season. His top EV at 19 yrs old was 114.3 and prospects live had him at 107.9 for the season (I don’t know what goes into that calculation).

Wow. Those are some impressive numbers. Good luck to your son in the offseason and next year!

I definitely don't mean to oversimplify things. Hitting is definitely a complex skill. My son works hard at it in a great facility with great coaches where they work on every aspect of hitting. Hopefully, he'll continue to get better and better at all aspects of hitting.

I don't think it's an overstatement though to say that for most hitters that if you take the same skills and approach and add more exit velocity, you are immediately a better hitter.

I think body mass has a valid correlation to exit velocity, lean body mass is the ideal.  You can always point to the exceptional who lie outside this range, but those are the elite examples (at any level vs peers), the outside of the normal standard deviation.  When considering young cohorts, size matters first.  But this is also why those who rely on their size often get passed up later on, to excel you need to get bigger, stronger and improve mechanically.  That means work in the weight room, but none of that pays off if you don't eat appropriately.

But at say the HS level, you can immediately improve all your numbers by gaining lean muscle mass. Not to mention coordination and athleticism that comes with strength, control and stability.  Can you simply eat more, gain weight and improve exit velo, I bet to a point, yes, with more weight comes higher momentum applied to Force.

But I'm betting that everyone here is actually associating size/weight to strength or force production, including the OP, the bigger guy "on average" is going to be able to produce higher velo's.  Weight is a simpler measurement than strength or muscle type, so If you can create a simple equation or ratio to make a direct and valid correlation, there is no need to complicate it for it's intended purpose.  Will more appropriate variables improve the model, yes. but really... for the OP's intended purpose, I'd say the body mass scale is accurate enough.

NJ:

can he hit the "curve"? Can he see the "red" seams on the ball? Does he understand "visualization"? What is role as a hitter"?

TO SEE THE BALL!!!

Bob

@Consultant posted:

NJ:

can he hit the "curve"? Can he see the "red" seams on the ball? Does he understand "visualization"? What is role as a hitter"?

TO SEE THE BALL!!!

Bob

In reply, like I mentioned earlier, my son works really hard at his hitting, and on all of the things you mention and more. He certainly isn't preoccupied by his exit velocity. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be trying to improve exit velocity in addition to all of the other elements of hitting. And understanding that gaining mass and how much every pound of gain means to gaining exit velocity is a good thing to know.

What I also know is that if he's at the plate and sees the spin and barrels the curveball that you mention, right now it's a fly out to center field at his high school field at his current exit velocity. Those become home runs with 10 mph of extra exit velocity. There isn't any denying that.

NJ Dad;

A hitter needs to have "carry" on the ball. Has your son used the "high tee" drill?

This develops "back spin". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nstgnb1tv9k

Maybe the single most important drill for any hitter.

Bob

@adbono posted:

Posts like the OP make my head want to explode. Metrics, metrics, metrics! After the fact many will learn that this is not the thing to focus on.

Thank you.

@Dadbelly2023 posted

He's 165 now but we stopped measuring (or caring) because once you are above average bat speed, it really doesn't matter for recruiting.

Check that. Unless you have eye popping EV like ptwoodson. In which case you're getting drafted.

@Gov posted:

Thank you.

You’re welcome. However, based on the overall theme of this thread it doesn’t appear that my comments carried much weight. When all people hear is the same message (metrics) they believe it after a while. Whether it’s a good message or not. But you would think at some point people would look at who is pushing that message. It’s not college baseball coaches. I can promise you that. The ones pushing metrics are the ones that stand to benefit. PG, PBR, V Tool, etc. are the ones pushing metrics. Along with internet hitting and pitching gurus. And they all stand to gain something ($) by creating the impression that you need them to reach your goal. It doesn’t help that the MLB TV broadcasts devote way too much time talking about it too. Unfortunately MLB has allowed itself to be taken over by analytic nerds that know how to measure data but don’t understand how to play the game. The ONLY time that exit velocity matters is in game situations. Nobody cares what a kid does in the cage - which is a controlled setting (like a laboratory). In game performance is what matters. College coaches look a lot harder at how a HS player plays the game than what his numbers are. Recently a area MLB scout asked me to scout a Texas HS pitcher and write a report on what I saw. I knew he was a high velo kid (96 the day I saw him but he has hit 100) so I was looking for all the other things. He didn’t command the FB well, had no feel for off speed pitches, had some small mechanical flaws, and didn’t have good body language. He also didn’t dominate hitters the way I expected him too. My report included all of that information. The kid is a high profile commit and has a chance to be really good. But he is very raw. He has a lot of work to do before he is ready to pitch at a top 10 D1 program or in pro ball. Point being, there is a lot more to playing the game than putting up good showcase numbers. So what you should be working on is becoming a better player. If you focus on that the numbers will take care of themselves. Rant over. Now get off my lawn!

@adbono posted:

You’re welcome. However, based on the overall theme of this thread it doesn’t appear that my comments carried much weight. When all people hear is the same message (metrics) they believe it after a while. Whether it’s a good message or not. But you would think at some point people would look at who is pushing that message. It’s not college baseball coaches. I can promise you that. The ones pushing metrics are the ones that stand to benefit. PG, PBR, V Tool, etc. are the ones pushing metrics. Along with internet hitting and pitching gurus. And they all stand to gain something ($) by creating the impression that you need them to reach your goal. It doesn’t help that the MLB TV broadcasts devote way too much time talking about it too. Unfortunately MLB has allowed itself to be taken over by analytic nerds that know how to measure data but don’t understand how to play the game. The ONLY time that exit velocity matters is in game situations. Nobody cares what a kid does in the cage - which is a controlled setting (like a laboratory). In game performance is what matters. College coaches look a lot harder at how a HS player plays the game than what his numbers are. Recently a area MLB scout asked me to scout a Texas HS pitcher and write a report on what I saw. I knew he was a high velo kid (96 the day I saw him but he has hit 100) so I was looking for all the other things. He didn’t command the FB well, had no feel for off speed pitches, had some small mechanical flaws, and didn’t have good body language. He also didn’t dominate hitters the way I expected him too. My report included all of that information. The kid is a high profile commit and has a chance to be really good. But he is very raw. He has a lot of work to do before he is ready to pitch at a top 10 D1 program or in pro ball. Point being, there is a lot more to playing the game than putting up good showcase numbers. So what you should be working on is becoming a better player. If you focus on that the numbers will take care of themselves. Rant over. Now get off my lawn!

Except...  You would have never even been there to scout him but for his metrics. 

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Except...  You would have never even been there to scout him but for his metrics.

He is 6’-7” tall with a frame that will allow a lot of weight gain. He would be looked at if he threw 85 just based on projection. So I beg to differ. What else ya got?

Well... height is actually a metric also.  So I got this:  You wouldn't have been there at all except for his height and fb metrics.

But all teasing aside, there is likely no other sport that relies more on stats, metrics, projection than baseball.  So i kinda understand the desire of knowing ones EV and possible future EV.   

To use my 2023 as example, he was an  all state jr but 5ft 9  165lbs. im actually sure that if he had an EV of 100+ off tee, he d be going to a D1 program.  But I know that he's prolly around 92 94 and in these times, a lower level is a better fit

@NJ2025Dad posted:

Let me clarify a couple of things in my post.

First, I meant to suggest that 1 pound of body mass to .5 MPH exit velocity is a sort of benchmark or average. The range is going to be something like 1 pound  to anywhere from .4 to .6 MPH. That accounts for a 150 pound kid at 89 mph, which is a .59 ratio. But from the data I looked at, that is a pretty rare combination of bodyweight and exit velocity for high school players.

Second, I agree that strength is the key component, not necessarily body weight. But, in general, strength corresponds pretty well with body weight. However, a 150 pound kid who is overweight is  going to have a lower exit velocity to body weight ratio than a 150 pound kid who is all lean muscle. Kids who are all lean muscle, or "fast twitch" kids are definitely going to be on the upper end of the range in the ratio.

Lastly, the only reason I brought it up at all is that I think if you can quantify the amount of body weight necessary to get a certain amount of velocity gain, it is a great motivator. For my son, we can take a pretty good guess that if he gains 20 pounds of natural growth (he's still gaining height) and by working hard in the gym and goes from 160 to 180, he will gain somewhere around 10 MPH in max exit velocity. That takes him from 80 mph to 90 mph. That represents a potential very big difference in on the field performance.

I agree that for many if not most HS players gaining weight is a good goal, young top prospects are getting bigger and stronger earlier and it is not unusual that a drafted HS player already is like 190+ while 30 years ago they were drafted at 160-170 and then gained weight later in their minor league career so if you are 150 in your junior year you are playing catch up.

For example this years top 2 draft picks holliday and jones are both listed at 180 (probably at least 190 now), it is just hard to generate the necessary strength and power for pro level power if you are under 180.

And yes, of course hit tool is still the foundation of everything but a bit of strength definitely makes it easier.

I’m going to take middle ground here, as I’m a data geek. However, I’m not sold on all the metrics at the lower levels or there importance over the basics.

As a HS senior my son hit a 450’+ bomb at a PG tournament and got invited to several national HR/power hitting events. He had elite bat speed, a serviceable right-hand stroke and was 6’ 4” 220 lbs at the time. Why did he become a PO as college freshman?  Because he doesn’t have the contrast differential recognition to pick up spin at the level required to be an elite hitter.

Nobody deserves to be a HS varsity, juco, D3, D2, D1, pro baseball player or any other type of pro athlete for that matter. We’re all gifted with an initial capability and theoretical max for every activity we do. Having a plus power tool and projectable size means nothing without the vision required to utilize those tools in baseball – however, you can hit the crap out of a golf ball…

I believe that basic metrics are critical to understanding capability, projection, and areas to improve – even if those areas are never going to be elite, they can create improvement or an advantage (my kid works with a track coach off season for sprint speed and explosiveness, even though he’d never place in middle school 100).

All capabilities blend to create a result at each level – A high baseball IQ player can achieve excellent results without having best hit tools or pitch shapes/velo – until they reach a level where they don’t. It’s not a fair thing, to reach your maximum potential requires the same amount of extreme effort from everyone, but the end results will be vastly different.

All you can do is be realistic and enjoy each moment, because if your kid is on field at any level it’s a blessing...

@JucoDad said, “I’m not sold on all the metrics at the lower levels or their importance over the basics.”

This perfectly summarizes my point. The basics of learning how to play the game have taken a backseat to chasing numbers. Even at middle school and HS levels. Which is ridiculous. At that age kids should be learning. Everyone wants to be declared the winner before they run the race. Scouting services and travel ball orgs have figured this out and have developed business models that takes advantage of it. The result is that today’s  young players know less about playing the game than prior generations. That’s one of the main reasons that you rarely see a freshman position player in the starting lineup at a competitive 4 year school.

@adbono posted:

@JucoDad said, “I’m not sold on all the metrics at the lower levels or their importance over the basics.”

This perfectly summarizes my point. The basics of learning how to play the game have taken a backseat to chasing numbers. Even at middle school and HS levels. Which is ridiculous. At that age kids should be learning. Everyone wants to be declared the winner before they run the race. Scouting services and travel ball orgs have figured this out and have developed business models that takes advantage of it. The result is that today’s  young players know less about playing the game than prior generations. That’s one of the main reasons that you rarely see a freshman position player in the starting lineup at a competitive 4 year school.

I think my original post on this thread has been misinterpreted a bit. I never suggested that metrics are more important than the basics. Knowing how to play baseball, and all of the skills necessary to be successful are obviously the most important thing.

But having some power (for which exit velocity is a measurement) is a key "skill" of being a successful HS, college, and pro player. Lack of power will likely stop you from progressing at some point. Especially for my son, who only has average (or below average) speed.

The only reason to care about exit velocity is that it's a measurement of the power you are capable of producing. For instance, I know that my son isn't capable of hitting a home run on the high school field right now (or maybe he could squeak one over at the foul pole). He just doesn't have the power yet to hit home runs regularly. He can't yet produce the EV numbers necessary to show that kind of power. But, he's shown so far that he seems to have a good ability to gain weight and strength with training.

The only thing my original post was suggesting was that there was a ratio that might indicate how much additional power he was capable of producing by adding body weight. Basically, the ratio indicates that if he adds 20 pounds, he might be capable of producing an extra 50 feet of carry distance on a batted ball. I know it's obvious to everyone that adding muscle mass equals more power, so I know this is nothing new. I just thought that, to a player, understanding more granularly how much power you could add per pound might be a good thing to know.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Well... height is actually a metric also.  So I got this:  You wouldn't have been there at all except for his height and fb metrics.

But all teasing aside, there is likely no other sport that relies more on stats, metrics, projection than baseball.  So i kinda understand the desire of knowing ones EV and possible future EV.   

To use my 2023 as example, he was an  all state jr but 5ft 9  165lbs. im actually sure that if he had an EV of 100+ off tee, he d be going to a D1 program.  But I know that he's prolly around 92 94 and in these times, a lower level is a better fit

If metrics are a big deal to you metrics for his size aren’t the issue. The issue is metrics against the players he’s competing against in the recruiting process.

@adbono posted:

@JucoDad said, “I’m not sold on all the metrics at the lower levels or their importance over the basics.”

This perfectly summarizes my point. The basics of learning how to play the game have taken a backseat to chasing numbers. Even at middle school and HS levels. Which is ridiculous. At that age kids should be learning. Everyone wants to be declared the winner before they run the race. Scouting services and travel ball orgs have figured this out and have developed business models that takes advantage of it. The result is that today’s  young players know less about playing the game than prior generations. That’s one of the main reasons that you rarely see a freshman position player in the starting lineup at a competitive 4 year school.

The dad of one of my son’s travel teammates let no dollar go unspent having his kid train to excel in showcases. In high school the kid put up big numbers against weaker pitching. In travel my son’s nickname for the kid was LOB (didn’t like him). My son used to joke second base should be renamed Gilligan’s Island. The kid kept stranding him there.

The kid was 6’4” 215 and ripped. In showcases he starred. A prominent SEC coach of a ranked team claimed the kid could become his greatest recruit ever. I just shook my head. The kid was handed a position for three years. He played his way out of the lineup each year by the start of conference play. He never hit one homer.

Then, after all this lack of production at the college level he was signed as an undrafted free agent. He was a Rookie and Low A bench player for three seasons.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Well... height is actually a metric also.  So I got this:  You wouldn't have been there at all except for his height and fb metrics.

But all teasing aside, there is likely no other sport that relies more on stats, metrics, projection than baseball.  So i kinda understand the desire of knowing ones EV and possible future EV.   

To use my 2023 as example, he was an  all state jr but 5ft 9  165lbs. im actually sure that if he had an EV of 100+ off tee, he d be going to a D1 program.  But I know that he's prolly around 92 94 and in these times, a lower level is a better fit

ALL sports use stats, metrics, and projections. But if you want to take it to the absurd consider this. If a basketball player can execute a dunk, does it matter what velocity the ball has when it goes thru the hoop? If a kid makes a lot of 3 point shots, does it matter how much the ball rotates after he releases it?  The answer to both those questions is a resounding NO. No it doesn’t. What matters are the results. More specifically what matters are the results in game competition. Translated to baseball terms, I am saying this. Instead of focusing on a time in a 60 yard dash, learn how to be a really good baserunner. And then run the bases well in games. Instead of focusing on a EV number, learn how to be a really good hitter. And then hit well in games. Instead of focusing on FB velo, learn how to pitch. And then pitch well and win games. Playing well against good opponents in game competition is the best way to get recruited. A phone call from a trusted source can really help too. When you focus on improving metrics and you don’t focus on improving your playing ability (including baseball IQ) you place the cart in front of the horse. Here is an example to make my point.  Texas A&M just withdrew an offer to a ‘23 RHP. The kid hits every metric you can imagine. Area Code, big velo, big body. But he doesn’t know how to pitch and he can’t command the baseball. So he can’t help them win. The kid and his dad are beside themselves. They don’t get it. But I do. That kid was me 40+ years ago. I am the perfect guy to advise this kid b/c I lived it myself. But is he listening to me? No. No he isn’t. Why isn’t he? Because too many others are in his ear. Telling him what he want to hear. For their benefit and not his. I can see that but he and his dad can’t. So much of what gets posted on HSBBW by older members is based on real life experience that other members haven’t yet had. I think the significance of that often gets lost in the discussion.

@adbono posted:

ALL sports use stats, metrics, and projections. But if you want to take it to the absurd consider this. If a basketball player can execute a dunk, does it matter what velocity the ball has when it goes thru the hoop? If a kid makes a lot of 3 point shots, does it matter how much the ball rotates after he releases it?  The answer to both those questions is a resounding NO. No it doesn’t. What matters are the results. More specifically what matters are the results in game competition. Translated to baseball terms, I am saying this. Instead of focusing on a time in a 60 yard dash, learn how to be a really good baserunner. And then run the bases well in games. Instead of focusing on a EV number, learn how to be a really good hitter. And then hit well in games. Instead of focusing on FB velo, learn how to pitch. And then pitch well and win games. Playing well against good opponents in game competition is the best way to get recruited. A phone call from a trusted source can really help too. When you focus on improving metrics and you don’t focus on improving your playing ability (including baseball IQ) you place the cart in front of the horse. Here is an example to make my point.  Texas A&M just withdrew an offer to a ‘23 RHP. The kid hits every metric you can imagine. Area Code, big velo, big body. But he doesn’t know how to pitch and he can’t command the baseball. So he can’t help them win. The kid and his dad are beside themselves. They don’t get it. But I do. That kid was me 40+ years ago. I am the perfect guy to advise this kid b/c I lived it myself. But is he listening to me? No. No he isn’t. Why isn’t he? Because too many others are in his ear. Telling him what he want to hear. For their benefit and not his. I can see that but he and his dad can’t. So much of what gets posted on HSBBW by older members is based on real life experience that other members haven’t yet had. I think the significance of that often gets lost in the discussion.

Not sure if you meant it, but this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Let's use your example of a basketball player. In your example, let's say there is a kid who can't dunk. Let's say he can touch the rim, but he can't dunk. So, what does he do? Likely, he starts plyometric program of jump training. And he starts squatting. Maybe he needs to add 8 inches to his vertical to dunk.

If I could say to that kid that every pound of body weight was equal to one inch of vertical, I think that would be valuable knowledge of how to get to his goal.

Obviously, that isn't the case. But hopefully you get my point that all I'm saying is that it's nice to have an idea of how adding body weight can get a baseball kid to his "on the field" goal of hitting the ball harder and farther, and how much it will help.

I understand your point. And with all due respect, IMO your focus is not on the right things. At least that’s what your OP led me to believe. I see a lot of young players (and their parents) obsessed with metrics. And I think it’s a mistake to do that. That’s my point. You can take it or leave it. Matters not to me. I recognize that you didn’t ask for my opinion. And hey, maybe I’m wrong about where your focus is. I just reacted to what I read.

NJ

has your son ever played a game of "pepper" with his mates. It teaches "bat control" throwing and fielding. Have you watched the Japan HS player's train?

Bob

@adbono posted:

I understand your point. And with all due respect, IMO your focus is not on the right things. At least that’s what your OP led me to believe. I see a lot of young players (and their parents) obsessed with metrics. And I think it’s a mistake to do that. That’s my point. You can take it or leave it. Matters not to me. I recognize that you didn’t ask for my opinion. And hey, maybe I’m wrong about where your focus is. I just reacted to what I read.

I appreciate your opinion, and I understand that metrics can be a hot topic on this site. However, I don't think either my son or I are obsessed with metrics. He is in a great hitting training facility all of the time, and exit velocity is never a focus.

I do think that he is focused on his improvement, and I'm here to assist in that. To get improvement at any level, getting "bigger, stronger, faster" is part of the program. So is fielding practice, throwing, hitting, playing in games, etc. He does all of the above.

There are some ways to measure some of that improvement. My original post only talked about a possible way to correlate body weight gain with improvement in power, one aspect of baseball.

I do think metrics can play a part in overall development.  As such, I don't think they should be discarded altogether.  The 60 might serve as a good example.  Does the 60 measure pure speed/acceleration?  It does, but some some kids are able to post better numbers because they head over to their track coach and get trained up on sprinting mechanics that don't necessarily translate into stealing 2nd.  Conversely, if you are not showing improvement in your own 60 as your develop, you may want to consider why.  A fast 60 won't alone get you to 2nd base safely under the tag - baseball IQ will play a much bigger role (lead, understanding pitcher's movements, reading pitches, sliding strategy, etc) - BUT a slow 60 will hinder the goal.

Somehow folks need to determine which metrics might be important to them and use them appropriate to focus development/training.  I also think metrics can be a foot in the door.  If that '23 RHP had buckled down and used some appropriate metrics (a little harder for good pitchers), he could have taken full advantage of the door being held wide open for him.  I was somewhat concerned with my 2024's EV - he hits well enough, but right now we don't have verified live game EV versus others.  We do have video of where the shots land, but am curious as to how he performs during the games versus others.  I am not a huge fan of cage EV, but hoping it doesn't end up being viewed negatively - and certainly don't want him putting in any significant effort to improve this somewhat artificial outcome.

In every basketball games there are endless opportunities to evaluate a player as long as they are in the game. And even if their shot is off one night, you can still see their shooting form, their shot selection, how they play on and off the ball defense, how they move without the ball, their hustle and athleticism, their leadership… In football, a player might get offered based on their body and athleticism alone. You can afford to do that when you have 160 full rides to give away. In baseball, a coach can come, watch a full game and see a player get walked twice, HBP once and never touch the ball in the field. So I do think metrics have a bigger role in baseball than in some other sports. There has to be some way to sort through all of the very talented players out there and it can’t all be word of mouth. I think it’s become too big a focus but I trust, based on the responses, that the OP isn’t one of those folks.

I misread OPs original question as well and I agree that all things equal, a stronger guy hits the ball harder. But what I was also trying to say perhaps not very well in my original response is that there are too many variables to be able give a calculation of pounds per mph gained.  Even puberty (man muscle vs. boy muscle makes a difference).

PT;

Sam told me the story of a young player who tried out for the Boston Celtics.

He a "jumper" great jumping ability. I ask Sam what happened. The player he was guarding did a "head fake" and the jumper stuck to the ceiling of the Boston Garden. Great "metrics".

During our Area Code games, a Cuban player crossed the border and ask for a special tryout for the scouts. I set up a former MLB pitcher to throw and his "bat speed" was exceptional. Actually when he swung he was like a spinning top. Great metrics and I wanted to call for a "change up" however he would dug a hole in the floor of San Diego State BP cage.

Bob

Awesome post Bob. Unfortunately most people won’t get the point b/c you are so subtle in making it. For those that don’t know, Bob is the founder of the Area Code games. He is one of the most experienced and most knowledgeable posters on this site. What Bob is saying, without saying it, is that good metrics don’t necessarily make a good player. Same thing I have been saying. But so many on the HSBBW don’t understand this right now. But eventually you will. Probably when it’s too late to do anything about it. But we continue to try and tell you.

Adbono

appreciate your kind words. The interest in metrics is not new. However the great pro scouts always Studied the non verbal behavior of the player.
When you discuss with your College Coaches conduct an interview    What 5 areas do they evaluate?

Bob

@adbono posted:

Awesome post Bob. Unfortunately most people won’t get the point b/c you are so subtle in making it. For those that don’t know, Bob is the founder of the Area Code games. He is one of the most experienced and most knowledgeable posters on this site. What Bob is saying, without saying it, is that good metrics don’t necessarily make a good player. Same thing I have been saying. But so many on the HSBBW don’t understand this right now. But eventually you will. Probably when it’s too late to do anything about it. But we continue to try and tell you.

First, let me say that I do appreciate what you are saying, although I'm not sure if it is directed at me.

To be honest, I'm not sure where we all disagree, although there seems to be some disagreement.

As I've mentioned multiple times, I agree that skill development is the most important thing, and that metrics shouldn't be a preoccupation of young baseball players. I agree with you that good metrics definitely don't necessarily make a good player.

Maybe where we disagree is that I believe that understanding where you are now, where you can go, and the ways to get there as an athlete is EXTREMELY important. Any information (measurements) that you can take to help gauge your progress and set your goals is a good thing and should be exploited by an athlete. To ignore them is just leaving out a piece of information that can help you.

In every sport, measuring and understanding your progress is a major part of the process of getting better.

In any case, my son will continue to try to develop as a baseball player, and I'll do my best to help him do so. He'll continue to work on all aspects of his hitting, defense, and strength. And, he'll understand (in more concrete terms) the potential benefits his hard work in the gym and weight gain will have on his hitting.

Btw I think in pro ball of course there are a lot of "nerds" but hit tool and contact gets valued a little more again.

For some time it clearly was power over hit but some of the smarter teams are trying to lower their K rate while keeping the power.

You see that among the social media discussions of the "nerd coaches" like for example the driveline hitting guys too, 5 years ago guys like ochart all day talked like more attack angle, higher batspeed, higher launch angle, focus on pull side and in the last 1 or 2 years they also talk about contact, flattening out the swing on high pitches, zone coverage, 2 strike approach etc so those "nerd coaches" are certainly evolving too in that aspect, especially those who have worked in pro ball a couple years now.

Btw right now pro baseball player development is very bad at improving contact. There are some theories that are being tried out but overall the success hasn't been good.

What some teams have tried is recruiting small ball players and making them play "big ball" by working on batspeed, attack angle and strength, so basically take hitters and try to improve their power.

The guardians have tried that a lot in the last years, sucess of it was only moderate though (every once in a while you have a jose ramirez but most will only improve from 30 to 40 grade power or so.

Hitters who can do both power and contact at the highest level are simply the best hitters and thus are hard to find.