Bringing in "Ringers"

Enjoy your trophy! Sounds like a professional team.

 

Question: did you son learn anything this summer?

1. How to hit the curve.

2. How to play defense

3. How to run the bases - with efficiency

4. If a pitcher, how to adjust to the situation.

 

Bob

My daughter was on the other end.  She was the one asked to play.  On one team, we did that one summer and it became uncomfortable.  If we were going to go on the road, get a hotel room, pay for the food, etc. then we wanted her to play.  Still, I understood that other parents were upset.  What was the tradeoff?  Well, as Consultant says, enjoy the trophy.  That team placed 4th in ASA one year and my daughter was key pitching and playing the field.  Her impact with the bat was unquestioned as she led the team in hitting.  That team did not survive it for the next year and folded.  IMO, there were other issues with that team and perhaps we were the last straw. 

If it's a player's dream to play at ever-higher levels, then he's going to have to become comfortable taking on all comers; and, many times, his toughest competition will come from his own teammates for playing time.

 

You can be assured that it's every college recruiter's dream to bring in a class full of "ringers" every year; just as it's every professional scout's dream to have every draft pick good be enough to one day make it to the majors. No playing spot should ever be considered "safe."

 

Sorry if this comes across as insensitive; but, living within the upper realms of any sport requires playing up to that level, and the only way to succeed is to consistently beat out the supposed "ringers" for playing time.

Trophies are OK, but I like Ringers even more.  We actually do a tournament in Jupiter that is full of Ringers from all over the country. However, we don't call them ringers, we call them prospects. It's fun to watch them compete at that level.

There is a really, really good way to eliminate this from happening. The player could beat out the competition.

 

I'm not a fan of bringing in ringers to win a trophy at ages below 15u.  Play with what you built, against appropriate competition, and win if you're better.

 

At 15u and above, there's not much point in playing for trophies at all as a player, or caring whether your team does so, or really, for the most part, whether your team is particularly good.  Play where you can get the most playing time and still get exposure, if you're looking to go to the next level, against the best competition you can hang with.

 

I get why the organizations bring in ringers at this level, because it's about bragging rights to recruit the next generation and keep the business going. As a player, you have to be careful that your organization's desire to win doesn't overshadow your goals to play, get better, and get exposure.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with the morality behind exploiting the success of amateur players for external profit/gains (cough NCAA cough), this is the crux of my beliefs toward the current system. Well put.

 

 

 

Golfman25,

 

It sounds like some parents assumed that the original group would remain intact from winter through late summer, that longevity would be a factor in lineup decisions, and that newcomers would be temporary help hired to fill short-term gaps.  

 

These expectations are common on "daddy ball" teams, and they are usually an impediment to individual and team development.  

 

If the parents signed up for the team to find better competition, it's hard to find fault with the coach for providing it--unless the coach broke specific promises he made about roster size or playing time. 

 

Parents need to look in the mirror and ask if they were looking for better competition or a sanctuary from competition.

 

 

This is something every player will encounter in his career.  Travel ball , HS, college as well as professional ball.  If there are players not getting the job done, they will be replaced.
I am not sure where the term ringers comes from. This isnt a circus show, its baseball! :-)

Yes and no.  The MLB, NCAA, etc. all have rules about rosters.  It's not like Virginia could go out and add players from other schools before they played Vanderbilt in the CWS. 

 

Certainly, they can look to "upgrade" their roster by recruiting new players for the next season.  But even with transfers, they would need to follow certain rules. 

 

Is there a rule against what?  Is there a rule that says your ss colege son who played all the previous year now is replaced by a juco transfer? 
Is there a rule that says the guy who they just brought in as a free agent cant take your job in CF?
I think you are being a bit picky.  Tell your friend to get used to this, because this is the way it is. Happens all of the time to everyone. Instead of worrying about it work your tail off to improve your game and you wont be replaced.

I don't know maybe I am missing something.

Obviously this league has rules that allow this to happen.
Ask for a copy of those rules when you sign up for any team.
JMO

In my area, teams typically run from year to year (probably like most?).  They start with tryouts in Aug/Sept.  Move to winter workouts from Nov - March.  Youth teams will play a spring/summer schedule thru late July/Aug.  High school aged teams will break for the HS season and play a summer schedule thru Early August.  It is generally understood that it is a one year "commitment" -- that nothing is guaranteed for the following year.  Aug/Sept. is "silly season" as teams look for players -- some players leave for "greener" pastures, so teams look for "better" players.  Annual team expenses are generally covered by player fees. 

 

In my friend's case (yes it is a friend), 3-4 "new" players showed up a week or so ago to finish the last few tournaments with them.  It obviously takes away at-bats and playing time from some "regulars" (not to mention they haven't contributed to expenses).  Friend not real happy about it. 

 

It doesn't sit well with me.  If baseball is a team sport, then dance with the date you brought.  I know things change and loyalty is so 1950's, but really. 

This is timely post.  For my kid, a resounding yes on all four points.  But he is with a coach who preaches team/"family"/loyalty. 

Well did you ever pay big bucks to play in a tournie and they fly in prospects (ringers as u call them) for one game and then they leave?  Most likely they didnt pay any fees.
Is it fair...definetly not.  Its aggravating. But once your son goes further up the ladder you realize its just a small part of the businessnof baseball.
If a player has played all season than taking away a few at bats or innings wont hurt him. In fact with tjat schedule he probably needs the rest.
Tell your friend to get over it.
JMO

College and pro ball is all about assembling the best team and putting the best nine on the field every game. Bring them all on.

In some cases those "ringers" attract college recruiters and scouts.  While this might not be enjoyable for those being replaced in the line up, it sure does give those not replaced a lot more exposure.

 

Any border line player should want a high profile prospect on his team or on the team he is playing against.  sometimes we have seen kids play in front of hundreds of scouts just due to one "ringer" being in the game.  Some great opportunities are actually found that way!

I just received a moderation notice.  Somehow I guess I am a moderator, though I have never done anything.  I do get the notices to moderator which are usually about spam, or complaints about a poster.  I never do anything and even of I wanted to, I wouldn't know how to do it.

 

i was surprised just a bit ago by another one of these messages.  Mainly because this one was initiated by me!  Evidently I hit a button that created this complaint.  If other more important moderators see it, please disregard. I have no complaints.

I have been on both sides.  My 18 son's team won the WWBA this year..... while he did pitch, his innings were shorten by a "ringer"  sure I would have rather he pitchd , but the other player help the team win as well  and we were able to go further in the tourney and win it.

 

My 14 was picked up to play on a team next week in Ft. Myers.  The team flys him in/out and pickes up the tab.... I'm sure some parents will not like the idea of he being there... but that's the way it rolls.

 

So much you cannot control, work on what you can control .

When I was helping my son evaluate teams for showcases I saw the names of a couple of kids I knew on an academy's alumni list. It seemed odd since they lived 450 miles away. I had played ball with the dads. I called one of them. He said the academy found his son at a PG event in New England. They invited him and three other players to the PG East Cobb tournament, paid their way 100% and threw four starters whose parents paid 5k for their kids to be on the team under the bus. Buyer beware.

Does it not violate NCAA amateur eligibility for someone to pay for transportation and lodging to an event?  I thought I saw that somewhere.  Maybe it was a question on the NCAA clearinghouse form and I'm just misinterpreting it.

Can't be otherwise AAU basketball would be non existent. 

 

Probably a loophole in there somewhere that is big enough to fit a truck through.  Something like "representatives", "Boosters" and colleges are not allowed other than "Official Visits".  "Friends" no problem. 

 

Need to keep up the appearances of no Quid Pro Quo.  This problem will be solved soon enough though.  As soon as all of it is declared illegal and colleges have to face the music of paying these kids openly all of that silliness will and up in the trash bin.

 

Maybe it will be only basketball and football that happens to but I doubt the courts will make that distinction. 

 

Imagine a world where MLB and MiLB has to compete to pay players with colleges instead of the cozy relationship that exists today?  It might be the end of the $850 a month player in the low minors.  More kids will end up in school if they can get fed, housed and the $1,000 a month to be at Gainesville rather than on a bus in Mizzoula. 

 

 

 

 

I beleive as long as the player is being reimursed or provided with the cost to participate, in a tourney, they are still considered and amatuer. If they were paid more that the cost of participation, then they are no longer an amatuer, but a professional.

I just remember a line in the questionnaire that essentially asked if anyone other than a family member ever paid for entrance fees, transportation or lodging to participate in an athletic event - or something along those lines.  It was around 4 years ago when I filled out that questionnaire, so maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

That's how I remembered it as well

> On Jul 28, 2014, at 10:35 AM, "HS Baseball Web" <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

I don't like this type of thing on its surface but I do understand why it can happen.  At the older ages I am more okay with it than at younger ages to try and win some stupid trophy.  If we are talking about top level showcase teams then I can see it more so but not on a lower level select type team.  Who cares if you win trophies.

Boy, I've read lots of opinions on here that if this situation isn't against the rules you can/should do it and others who have paid all year just shut up and watch.

I totally disagree.  Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it.  

My son played in a successful organization that did NOT do that.  We made many finals and never won the "big one". We won statewide and lost nationally, but competed.  We lost to ringer teams and never felt like it was a loss. Our coach felt he'd rather lose and expose the players he was responsible for improving to tough situations/college scouts then kids who did not contribute to get to that point.  If not for that, my son likely would not have just had a terrific Super Regional as he would have sat on bench not improving or being seen by coaches so some kid who didn't pay could be seen and the coach could get some self gratification.  Would you work for someone if you did a great job and they consistently passed you for promotions to hire from the outside? Sometimes all you need is a chance to rise to the occasion.  That chance should go to the kid sacrificed all year. 

 

 Our team stayed mostly intact for 5 solid years and at least 80% went off to successful D1 programs even though we never won in Jupiter or Georgia.  We competed always and that was enough for these kids to get better and meet their goals.

 

We didn't win the WWBA but we parents were happy, our kids improved and went on to meet their goals, oh and they played for a man who taught em a pretty good life lesson about how you treat people as well.

 

Golfman, I think your friend needs to stand up for his son and find another team.  Winning isn't everything and you don't have to win a big event to play in college or improve.  Find a team who believes in loyalty.  Club ball isn't college or pro ball, it's supposed to develop players to get there. But by the way, college ball can not bring in a player from another team to play through the NCAA tournament either!  A strong, confident coach/program will not need to have ringers to fill his roster if there is any substance to what he teaches all year. 

More people need to stand up for better values in youth sports and until college, it's YOUTH sports.  

 

3FG would be better with ncaa rules.
FWIW proceed with caution if anyone covers expenses without covering every player.
I do believe some programs have scholarship type money available for those in need.

I've not heard the term ringer before but after this thread I know what it means.  I agree with calisportsfan.  Put a team together and let the chips fall where they may.  If you bring in someone like Bryce Harper to play on your team it doesn't prove anything other than Bryce Harper is a great player.  Someone like that doesn't need the added exposure.  If someone like that brings your team more exposure, how does the guy left out in the cold benefit from that?  So what if the ringer guy has more talent?  Let him find his own team and prove it.  If it is a team full of ringers/prospects, then that is different obviously.  We have a team that competes in the CABA World Series each year known as Bergen Beach.  You get bumped out of a lineup from that team and it is expected. 

 

The great prospects already have enough opportunities.  For them to come in late and bump someone who has been contributing does not seem right imho. 

Actually when my son was ten and we went to the Cooperstown Dreams Park for the ten year old week a team from San Diego did fly in Bryce Harper just for the championship game to pitch.  They won.

 

http://www.cooperstowndreamspa...K1_CHAMPIONSHIP.html

 

Agreed with the above.

 

Just curious, did they help the team win it all? Or did they crap in the bed.

Yes, that question is on the NCAA clearinghouse form.

 

From the NCAA 2013-2014 Guide:

Definition of a Professional Team

In Divisions I and II, a team is considered professional for a collegebound

student-athlete if it declares itself to be professional or

provides any player more than actual and necessary expenses for

participation on the team.

 

Actual and necessary expenses are limited to the following:

(a) Meals and lodging directly tied to competition and practice

held in preparation for such competition;

(b) Transportation (i.e., expenses to and from practice and

competition, cost of transportation from home to training/

practice site at the beginning of the season and from training/

practice site to home at the end of the season);

(c) Apparel, equipment and supplies related to participation on

the team;

(d) Coaching and instruction, use of facilities and entry fees;

(e) Health/medical insurance, medical treatment and physical

therapy; and

(f) Other reasonable expenses (e.g., laundry money).

I guess I have too much time on my hands.  

 

In the box score, Bryce's team has 11 guys listed, one played centerfield and didnt hit, and one pinch hit once.  Looking at the team picture there are 12 kids, so I guess 1 didnt play at all.  Ask those three kids about ringers.  Pay all that money to go to Cooperstown and not play, get one at bat, or one defensive inning, in the final.

Thanks Foxdad. Looks like paying someone's transportation and meals, etc is legal.

Funny thing is my first trip to Cooperstown was 2004 for the 10U week and a team from my neck of the woods beat the bejeebers out of them 13-4 in the round of 16 after they'd won 4 in a row.  It was kind of funny to watch the reaction of the players and parents.  I don't think they could believe they were losing or much less getting blown away.

 

We heard all about the kid they flew in the year before...but didn't know it was Bryce Harper.  I suppose if you are going to do that kind of thing, he's the kind of player to do it with.  I hadn't thought about that in forever.

Looking at the pictures, the second place team seems happier that the first, by smile count.

2003 Week #1 Champions - SAN DIEGO STARS NORTH (CA)

Smiles 5 out of 12.

2003 Week #1 Runnersup - BROWARD BULLDOGS (FL)

Smiles - 10 out of 13

 

 

I wondered where Michael Jordan went after he retired from the Wizards. Evidently he directly to teh san Diego Stars North 10u team that summer. He didn't hit well there either

What age level was being referred to in the OP?

 

As often occurs on this site, the most contentious arguments arise when there is incomplete information and different readers arrive at conflicting judgments based on their assumptions about the missing information.

 

There is much about about the situation that we do not know.

--We don't know what the coach promised the original group or what he delivered.

--We don't know anything about the attitude, performance, or attendance record of the players in the original group.

--We don't know who these players were or where they came from, or why they were added to the team.

 

That's why, when I posted my reply, which advocated competition, I qualified my exoneration of the coach by saying, "--unless the coach broke specific promises he made about roster size or playing time."

 

The OP sort of answered this qualifier by explaining what is "generally understood" in his area.  Well, I'd need more specific information than that to characterize a coach I don't know as disloyal or hyper-competitive.

 

My experience is that the only teams with fixed rosters during a season are a) school teams, b) teams playing within a structured organization like LL or Babe Ruth or Legion that have specific rules, and c) an occasional travel ball team that is trying to develop a particular group of players, such as alumni of a common youth program who will attend high school together.  

 

Everybody else is always looking to get better through some combination of recruiting and developing.

 

Unless this team was declared up front to be something other than a competitive baseball enterprise or he failed to honor explicit promises about roster size or playing time, I still vote to acquit the coach.  (Even if it means folks on soapboxes think it means I don't understand loyalty.)

 

The nearly universal parental justification for tournament or travel ball is a belief that their kids play at a higher level than the local rec leagues and need to face better competition.  Parents, be careful what you wish for.