Apparently an assistant coach served alcohol to 11 players on an away tournament. Wow.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.co...ity+Times+Insider%29
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
That's hard to believe.......ugh!
Well, I hope it wasn't "Game Day" Beer. That stuff is terrible.
Unbelievable. This will make national news.
We had the chance to play them during our tournament last month. It ended up in a 13-13 tie. They actually reached the championship game and lost. Definitely not a good thing !
Why were the 7 kids that didn't drink get suspended 2 days? That seems crazy to me. What were they supposed to do? Run in there and grab the beer out of the players and coaches hands? I must be missing something. Maybe there's more to it that's not in the story.
-----------------------
-----------------------
There's a tendency for some of the younger assistant coaches to identify too closely with the players. After my son's freshman team was coached by an 18yo they instituted a minimum age for the coaches. In this case, one would assume that the assistant was 21 or older.
I think they were suspended due to the fact they knew but didn't say anything. I think the idea is noble in meaning but not very realistic when it comes to the real world.
I know everything starts and stops with the head coach but why did they fire the whole staff? From the way I read the article they didn't know anything about the drinking until after the fact.
I know everything starts and stops with the head coach but why did they fire the whole staff? From the way I read the article they didn't know anything about the drinking until after the fact.
Face value these coaches and this program will not be used as a benchmark for others to follow. While I applaud that the school is being open, I wonder if that sector of the public that pounds a fist at every action a HS athlete makes forced a penalty that the common student would not have faced 
. Maybe because I am not a fan of the press and it's sensationalistic methods or how it can slant an issue without facts, but I will reserve judgement until some of those accused share their story. Anyone who thinks their HS student has not, or will not be offered a beer by an adult in a social setting during their HS years should loosen those blinders so not to cut off the blood to their brain.
Was the coach guilty of poor judgement......absolutely. But, there is a sliver in my warped mind that can imagine him walking into the hotel room with 2 12-packs and all the guys sitting on the beds talking to him about topics that go through a kids head, on and off the field. Let me state again...he was in the wrong. With that said, I've been to numerous graduation parties where kids have had beer available in a "secure" environment and the conversations we've had, and the things I've learned are opinions that I would have never been privy to unless the "playing field" was at an adult level due to the beer in hand.
I'm sure I'm going to be tagged as one of "those" adults who wants to be hip and act like a kid. I'd rather be tagged as one of those adults who wants to know, and cares whats going on in the heads of the next adult generation and sometimes that honesty comes with a bent rule.....accompanied with a little common sense attached by the "real" adults.
FWIW- I'm a non-drinker
Was the coach guilty of poor judgement......absolutely. But, there is a sliver in my warped mind that can imagine him walking into the hotel room with 2 12-packs and all the guys sitting on the beds talking to him about topics that go through a kids head, on and off the field. Let me state again...he was in the wrong. With that said, I've been to numerous graduation parties where kids have had beer available in a "secure" environment and the conversations we've had, and the things I've learned are opinions that I would have never been privy to unless the "playing field" was at an adult level due to the beer in hand.
I'm sure I'm going to be tagged as one of "those" adults who wants to be hip and act like a kid. I'd rather be tagged as one of those adults who wants to know, and cares whats going on in the heads of the next adult generation and sometimes that honesty comes with a bent rule.....accompanied with a little common sense attached by the "real" adults.
FWIW- I'm a non-drinker
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
Face value these coaches and this program will not be used as a benchmark for others to follow. While I applaud that the school is being open, I wonder if that sector of the public that pounds a fist at every action a HS athlete makes forced a penalty that the common student would not have faced
Was the coach guilty of poor judgement......absolutely. But, there is a sliver in my warped mind that can imagine him walking into the hotel room with 2 12-packs and all the guys sitting on the beds talking to him about topics that go through a kids head, on and off the field. Let me state again...he was in the wrong. With that said, I've been to numerous graduation parties where kids have had beer available in a "secure" environment and the conversations we've had, and the things I've learned are opinions that I would have never been privy to unless the "playing field" was at an adult level due to the beer in hand.
I'm sure I'm going to be tagged as one of "those" adults who wants to be hip and act like a kid. I'd rather be tagged as one of those adults who wants to know, and cares whats going on in the heads of the next adult generation and sometimes that honesty comes with a bent rule.....accompanied with responsibility and a little common sense attached by the "real" adults.
FWIW- I'm a non-drinker
The big--no, HUGE--difference between your examples and what happened here is the fact that HS baseball coaches are in a position of authority and trust, and the parents of those players have the expectation that their kids' best interests will be protected during the timeframe in which those staff members are in charge. A graduation party or social setting do not have the same expectations. If my daughter's dance team coach were to offer her alcohol, that is a far larger offense in my mind than, say, if my neighbor were to do so, because of those expectations.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:
The big--no, HUGE--difference between your examples and what happened here is the fact that HS baseball coaches are in a position of authority and trust, and the parents of those players have the expectation that their kids' best interests will be protected during the timeframe in which those staff members are in charge. A graduation party or social setting do not have the same expectations. If my daughter's dance team coach were to offer her alcohol, that is a far larger offense in my mind than, say, if my neighbor were to do so, because of those expectations.
I respect your opinion but my neighbor and the coach share that same pedestal because my expectations are the same for both. We weren't there, we don't know the details, only what the press prints, and the school releases. Maybe it doesn't match the scenario I put out there, maybe his head should be put on a block
A graduation party or social setting should be more concerning IMO because those are situations that a parent may not have someone they trust at arms length away from your kid.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
A graduation party or social setting should be more concerning IMO because those are situations that a parent may not have someone they trust at arms length away from your kid.
That is precisely my point. I shouldn't have to worry about my kid getting served alcohol by a coach precisely because of that trust; therefore, the transgression is more egregious. There isn't that trust with other people in social settings, and as such, precautions are higher; if my kid were to accept alcohol from an adult or another kid, there is less of an issue I have with the provider, as I have not entrusted them with the safety of my kid--it is on her more so than them.
Take that ballcap off your coach and he becomes your neighbor.....still have the same level of trust? Or, is he 2 different entities with two different rule sets?
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
Take that ballcap off your coach and he becomes your neighbor.....still have the same level of trust? Or, is he 2 different entities with two different rule sets?
For me, he is two different entities. This is easy--I went to high school with several of my kids' teachers, and some of my old teachers are still there. They are no different than any other teachers when it comes to school-related activities, and as far as my kids are concerned, they are always teachers. Have I socialized and had a drink or two with them when I run into them? Yep. Would I do that if any of my kids were around? Nope. That division needs to be maintained.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
I'm sure I'm going to be tagged as one of "those" adults who wants to be hip and act like a kid.
No, but you would be tagged as someone who broke the law.
Anyone who gives underage kids alcohol is breaking the law, and that is no example for anyone: coach, neighbor, friend or parent to set. This is my point of view as a teacher, advisor, parent and one who has seen one of his honor graduates killed in an accident after being served by a family friend at a graduation party.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
No, but you would be tagged as someone who broke the law.
So Jimmy, you NEVER had a beer with an adult before you were of age? Great rule of thumb but lacking reality.
I am sorry for your loss.
As much as I dislike the media for sensationalizing other people's misery, in this case it reads like strict reporting. And the head coach "acknowledged that a large number of players were served alcohol by an assistant coach." I don't need to know another thing about the whole situation. The sheer stupidity of the act is dumbfounding. The only way to deal with someone this lacking in moral conscience and common sense is to hack it off like the cancer that it is. Principal Emilio Urioste Jr. gets a cookie. 
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
No, but you would be tagged as someone who broke the law.
So Jimmy, you NEVER had a beer with an adult before you were of age?
Ahhh...the argument of a 6th grader...."Gee dad, other people do it."
The relevant question would be, "So Jimmy have you NEVER provided alcohol to a minor?"
And my answer would be: That's correct, NEVER. Not to my friends kids, students, neighbors or even my own.
quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
As much as I dislike the media for sensationalizing other people's misery, in this case it reads like strict reporting. And the head coach "acknowledged that a large number of players were served alcohol by an assistant coach."
I don't want to be taken wrong, the coach was in the wrong by rule. I just believe that as parents we sometimes dream of utopia but then we are aghast when we are woken up to a state of reality. The whole Burbank story will never come out because it may only cause more controversy and those empowered have determined the angle the story will take.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The relevant question would be, "So Jimmy have you NEVER provided alcohol to a minor?"
And my answer would be: That's correct, NEVER. Not to my friends kids, students, neighbors or even my own.
Relevant question maybe
btw- I've never supplied a minor alcohol either. I take that back, I lied, when I was 18 I did buy my 17 year old sister beer a couple times. Please keep this between us I'd hate to have this dark cloud hanging over me. My weakness was her cute friends, that's my story anyway.
Wait, wait, wait. When I was 21 and dating my now wife, she was almost 18. I did sneak her into the discos where I bought her a few Rhine wines. Guilt has ridden over me.
Oh boy, after careful thought I remember handing the team shared bottle of champagne to my 20 year old daughters and their two 20 year old friends after winning the National water ski title. Might as well throw away the key
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The relevant question would be, "So Jimmy have you NEVER provided alcohol to a minor?"
And my answer would be: That's correct, NEVER. Not to my friends kids, students, neighbors or even my own.
Relevant question maybe, but that was not the question asked. So I guess the cliche "Do as I say not as I did" falls true here.
You are correct, you did ask an irrelevan question. This thread has been about adults providing alcohol to minors. And I would welcome kids to do as I did and stay within the law and not put themselves in a situation in which they could be a party to endangering someone's life.
You are free to feel differently.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
So I guess the cliche "Do as I say not as I did" falls true here.
Absolutely. 100%!! I don't want mine doing half the things I did.
(Yes, I did jump off bridges when I was younger.)
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
You are correct, you did ask an irrelevan question.
Jimmy why do you refuse to answer my question.
I never said it was an irrelevant question, that was your opinion. It is relevant because it shows that having a beer with an adult can almost be considered a "right of passage" to a facet of adulthood in many situations. We should all take a look in the mirror and remember if that experience ever occurred in our own lives. Be honest
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:quote:Originally posted by rz1:
So I guess the cliche "Do as I say not as I did" falls true here.
Absolutely. 100%!! I don't want mine doing half the things I did.
(Yes, I did jump off bridges when I was younger.)
, the rest they can learn on their own. We try to teach and instill values based on our successes and our mistakes. But like academics, those who listen will retain a smaller amount of they hear, the rest is self taught.quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
No, but you would be tagged as someone who broke the law.
So Jimmy, you NEVER had a beer with an adult before you were of age? Great rule of thumb but lacking reality.
I am sorry for your loss.
Don't know about Jimmy but no I never did. Plenty of reality matbe not your reality but there still the same.
Whatever you position is on providing alcohol to minors, times have definitely changed since we were growing up. If you provide alcohol to your minor or someone else's, and they leave your house impaired and have an accident and hurt themselves or someone else, even if it's just a fender bender, you are in big, big, big trouble. Not worth the risk.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
You are correct, you did ask an irrelevan question.
It is relevant because it shows that having a beer with an adult can almost be considered a "right of passage" to a facet of adulthood in many situations. We should all take a look in the mirror and remember if that experience ever occurred in our own lives. Be honest
So, you consider drinking with an adult to the be the relevant issue here instead of adults providing alcohol for kids? To each his own, I guess.
As to your question, no, I never drank alcohol with an adult when I was a kid. I don't think I missed out on much. I guess the adults I knew had better things to do than drink with kids or provide alcohol to minors.
As to your implication that parents shouldn't tell kids they shouldn't do things their parents did...hogwash. Part of raising children is to help them avoid the mistakes of others.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
As to your implication that parents shouldn't tell kids they shouldn't do things their parents did...hogwash. Part of raising children is to help them avoid the mistakes of others.
We obviously grew up on different sides of the tracks.
My job as a parent is not to share all my experiences, but rather to direct my kids energies in a different direction if so be. Why should I taint my persona
with old here-say. 
rz1, are you arguing all rules and accountability should be relative and based solely on discretion of the participants involved; regardless of who those participants are and what the relationship to each participants is? Come on. I can imagine there are some places where your arguments have merit; but, please, not in this situation.
Let's do a hypothetical: Some the players, now with two (three or more?) beers in them, leave the room and search out more alcohol (the green-light is on of course). They take the team van, one of the players had grabbed the keys off the hotel room dresser, and drive to a liquor store where they successfully steal a bottle of hard booze. Downing the bottle in the parking lot, they then get into the van and head back to the hotel. Unfortunately they don’t make it because they wrap the van around a telephone pool and although they are unhurt – they’d managed to put on their seatbelts – they’ve killed a couple of young water skiers.
There are no mitigating angles to this situation. The coaches have to go. The entire program must be dismantled and rebuilt. In the end, a very few players – a couple seniors, may miss out and never play another baseball game again. The underclassmen will be back next year, likely having played Summer, Fall and Winter baseball either with the new team or another organization. The fired coaches have a glaring black mark on their record that they can either acknowledge (and humbly work back through the ranks of coaching to regain the trust they lost) or they can become embittered about how things just happen to them.
And let me say this directly: Please do not try to put into the realm of ‘OK’ the idea that you need to offer a young adult or older child a beer in order to have an intimate conversation regarding their concerns, hopes and fears. This was a selfish act of a ‘Coach’ who could not control his own behavior for the limited time he was in charge these kids.
Let's do a hypothetical: Some the players, now with two (three or more?) beers in them, leave the room and search out more alcohol (the green-light is on of course). They take the team van, one of the players had grabbed the keys off the hotel room dresser, and drive to a liquor store where they successfully steal a bottle of hard booze. Downing the bottle in the parking lot, they then get into the van and head back to the hotel. Unfortunately they don’t make it because they wrap the van around a telephone pool and although they are unhurt – they’d managed to put on their seatbelts – they’ve killed a couple of young water skiers.
There are no mitigating angles to this situation. The coaches have to go. The entire program must be dismantled and rebuilt. In the end, a very few players – a couple seniors, may miss out and never play another baseball game again. The underclassmen will be back next year, likely having played Summer, Fall and Winter baseball either with the new team or another organization. The fired coaches have a glaring black mark on their record that they can either acknowledge (and humbly work back through the ranks of coaching to regain the trust they lost) or they can become embittered about how things just happen to them.
And let me say this directly: Please do not try to put into the realm of ‘OK’ the idea that you need to offer a young adult or older child a beer in order to have an intimate conversation regarding their concerns, hopes and fears. This was a selfish act of a ‘Coach’ who could not control his own behavior for the limited time he was in charge these kids.
quote:Originally posted by CABBallFan:
rz1, are you arguing all rules and accountability should be relative and based solely on discretion of the participants involved; regardless of who those participants are and what the relationship to each participants is?
A quote from my original post....
quote:Was the coach guilty of poor judgement......absolutely.
The thread has evolved or as many might think has "dissolved" into a friendly debate on the historical issues of teenage drinking and the suppliers. I don't drink, never supplied my kids, their friends, or my players alcohol. So bottom line we're on the same page. My only point is that it happens, it happens often, and it will always happen. We are up in arms when it happens with a baseball team, and my point was that whether it was a coach or neighbor the expectations are the same in my book, but, societies view seems to be different. This is where the thread dissolved. An article that size would never make the paper if Sam the plumber took a bunch of guys camping, sat around the fire, bought a couple beers, and shot the shet. Sam, IMHO, is just a liable for the action as the coach and the only difference is that a team was involved. If the school found out about this camping trip the newspaper would ignore it and I doubt the school would raise much stink.
The bottom line. The ***'t coach was absolutely out of line, and it was correct to fire him. I'm sure he will be facing other legal issues. Not so sure about the other coaches, unless it comes out that they hid the incident after finding out about it. As to the 7 that didn't drink, I do not agree to their punishment. They did the right thing by not drinking. To punish them for not telling, at this age, is incorrect. The fact that they stood their ground and did not drink when the majority of their peers and an assistant coach did is enough to merit no suspension. (IMHO)
It's unnerving that a HS coach would lack the values he needed to make the correct decision concerning students and alcohol.
It's unnerving that a HS coach would lack the values he needed to make the correct decision concerning students and alcohol.
Can't figure out why the ** appeared. I just said high school coach. (abbreviated as H S)
when we played legion ball there was always a garbage can with beer and ice in the back...for the ride home. but again it was a different time.
to bad they had to cancel the season.
to bad they had to cancel the season.
I see now; I abbreviated assistant.( a s s 't)
Fair enough. And sounds like in practice your actions match reasonable expectations.
But if the coach is ‘absolutely’ guilty of poor judgment, why shouldn’t he and those who put him a position to use his judgment have to pay consequences for it?
Is it not reasonable for parents to pack their kids off to high school baseball tournament and expect, at the very least, that the coach is not going to supply the booze?
But if the coach is ‘absolutely’ guilty of poor judgment, why shouldn’t he and those who put him a position to use his judgment have to pay consequences for it?
Is it not reasonable for parents to pack their kids off to high school baseball tournament and expect, at the very least, that the coach is not going to supply the booze?
quote:garbage can with beer and ice in the back
The drinking age was probably 18 then. It was when I was a senior in HS.
Yeah, Ronald Reagan messed that up, huh.
Come on, AntzDad. Don't get me started on Reagan. Truth be told, I didn't partake until I was married to my first husband. But my friends sure did. I was the designated driver through high school and college, and I saw some things that others don't remember or wish they didn't.
The fact of the matter is that things are a heck of a lot different than when we were kids, and offering minors a beer is a slippery slope.
To the original thread, I don't think those 7 should have been suspended either.
Truth be told, I didn't partake until I was married to my first husband. But my friends sure did. I was the designated driver through high school and college, and I saw some things that others don't remember or wish they didn't.The fact of the matter is that things are a heck of a lot different than when we were kids, and offering minors a beer is a slippery slope.
To the original thread, I don't think those 7 should have been suspended either.
Yes, things are much different, today. The cops don't let anybody go. The way they do it (around here, at least) is 'haul everyone in'. If you're under 18 and at a party with alcohol, you're busted whether you were drinking or not. It's up to you to prove to a magistrate that "I was just holding it for someone". Sometimes, you win. Most times, you lose. And, it goes on your driver's license...
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
Yes, things are much different, today. The cops don't let anybody go. The way they do it (around here, at least) is 'haul everyone in'. If you're under 18 and at a party with alcohol, you're busted whether you were drinking or not. It's up to you to prove to a magistrate that "I was just holding it for someone". Sometimes, you win. Most times, you lose. And, it goes on your driver's license...
In most states now it is illegal for a minor to be "in or about" where illegal drinking is going on. Some state will revoked a drivers license of a completely sober teen if anyone in the car is drunk.