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California Pondering 2-year Moratorium on Metal

H Harv100+ posts
Wood bats will definately result in more ground balls, more shallow fly balls, less pitches per out, less pitches per pitcher, shorter games, less home runs and an increase need for "small ball" if you want to win.

It will probably result in less pitching injuries but, as a pitcher being struck by a ball sufficient to cause injury is already a rare occurance, being able to prove it would be like finding all 3 needles in that hay stack....you know their there but its hard to prove to someone who didn't see them go in there in the first place.
F freddy775,000+ posts
quote:


Meanwhile at a HS game pitting two very average teams

Coach- Infield on the grass......Outfield...way in....MORE...MORE
Fan #1- He must be expecting a play at the plate.
Fan #2- No, these kids are forced to use wood now and couldn't hit a superball hard.


Are you saying that HS baseball in the 1960's was bad?

It seemed darned good to me at the time.

I was a scrawny kid and got my fair share of hard hits with a real baseball bat.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by snowman:
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
A decent wood bat cost about $80-$110 dollars, that's compared to a decent aluminum/metal bat at $300-$400. My son broke 2 wood bats in one game, three the entire tournament at last year's JO's in Arizona. He has one more year of high school remaining. I can't imagine how many bats he'll go through this summer, and in the high school season if this moratorium is implemented?





baum bat $150, Demarini $125 - both won't break.
You can get a set of 5 decent bats for $50-$75.


My son who is now 28 and played some pro ball uses a baum bat in his men's league in Arizona. It has stood up to 3 plus years of year round use by him and a couple of the guys on the team. The composite wood bats are a definite alternative to metal both from a price and durability standpoint.

Seems to me the primary opponents of moving away from the metal standard are those that want to buy performance and those that sell it.


Thanks BOF & snowman...I'll look into the Baum bats for my son for this upcoming summer season.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by freddy77:
quote:


Meanwhile at a HS game pitting two very average teams

Coach- Infield on the grass......Outfield...way in....MORE...MORE
Fan #1- He must be expecting a play at the plate.
Fan #2- No, these kids are forced to use wood now and couldn't hit a superball hard.


Are you saying that HS baseball in the 1960's was bad?
Absolutely NOT. As time changes so does the game. Sometimes we have to swallow our memories and accept the fact that the enjoyment of playing the game is left to those who now play, on their terms, and by their rules.

It seemed darned good to me at the time.
I remember thinking my '65 Nova was the best car of that time, then I got a '74 Charger.

I was a scrawny kid and got my fair share of hard hits with a real baseball bat.
If there was video at that time Wink we would probably realize that the quality of pitching, fielding, and baseball in general did not compare with today and neither were your hits. Over time, our memories are often distorted enough that make you better than what you actually were. This not a cut but falls into the same category as your Dad telling you that he had to walk 5 miles up hill both ways to school when the school was actually 1/2 mile down the road.
Last edited by rz1
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
quote:
As soon as a precedent is set it opens the doors for government to use it as the litmus test that allows them to set standards for any situation that tugs at the heart at that moment in time.


I am sensitive to the slippery slope arguments. IMO, the public is willing to live with reasonable risk. I believe the only other change you might see safety-wise might be pitchers wearing helmets. Most don't seem to support that notion so I don't think it will go beyond wood bats. Since we live in a free society, I think debate on both sides of this issue is healthy.


Then again...

This is exactly what just pi$$es me off about the "safety" argument. If it was really about safety, the bat would be about the third or fourth thing people would be looking at.

Like I said...I am not even going to have to say I told ya so. It's already being done for me.


"Marin Catholic athletic director Rick Winter says the technology has yet to catch up with the demand. Since the accident, he has searched high and low. Helmets designed to protect a pitcher's head while still giving the hurler peripheral vision are hard to find. Winter got a delivery of 12 streamlined Rawlings fielder's helmets Friday. Assuming the fitted headgear feels good to the players, he plans to make them mandatory for freshman, junior varsity and varsity games as soon as possible."

http://www.marinij.com/sports/ci_14953047

Come to think of it, I think there should be a law for that. Say it ain't so....
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
"Marin Catholic athletic director Rick Winter says the technology has yet to catch up with the demand. Since the accident, he has searched high and low. Helmets designed to protect a pitcher's head while still giving the hurler peripheral vision are hard to find. Winter got a delivery of 12 streamlined Rawlings fielder's helmets Friday. Assuming the fitted headgear feels good to the players, he plans to make them mandatory for freshman, junior varsity and varsity games as soon as possible."

This is also my issue. If pitchers safety is the issue, then address that issue by protecting the pitcher from balls hit by both metal and wood, not just a half-a$$ed approach. Those purists who are watching the game and reminiscing about their own past are using "safety" in a smoke-n-mirrors attempt to recreate that past. If safety is you issue then fully protect the pitcher. The game has evolved to what it is, good and bad, and those who remember it another way have no right to dictate the rules because they liked it better back then. JMO
Last edited by rz1
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
quote:
This is exactly what just pi$$es me off about the "safety" argument. If it was really about safety, the bat would be about the third or fourth thing people would be looking at.

Like I said...I am not even going to have to say I told ya so. It's already being done for me.


Wow! Now we're talkin'! Now thats "healthy" debate - huh?
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Back when?
Back whenever YOU found the game at its best. Was it back before they lowered the mound?. Was it back when stadiums were bigger? Was it back when gloves had smaller pockets? Was it back before maple bats, Was it back before night games? Was it back before PED's? Was it back when you were putting baseball cards in the spokes of your bike? You pick your best time in the history of the sport.

Real ballplayers still play with wood.
So you are not a "real ballplayer" unless you hit with wood? That's sad. That is the mentality that I'm talking about. This issue was brought about with the Gunner incident but the purist who no longer plays the game jumped on-board and wants every player from now to the end of time to jump on his time machine and go back to his favorite era. The true number of metal bat opponents due to safety issues is skewed because the pool is tainted with purists posing as concerned safety folks. If your so concerned, protect all the kids from balls hit from every type bat.
Last edited by rz1
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
i'm not sure you'll ever please everyone on this topic.

mass. did this a few years ago in high school. BA dropped as did era's, it lasted 1 yr they went back to metal.on the same note,the local ncaa D2 conference is all wood. works out fine.

this may very well be a safety issue, but i feel instead of getting hit by batted balls, pitchers may find themselves dodging broken bats.


when i was a kid our community had 2 LL, each had 4 teams. you had to be pretty good to make a team. today same community,slightly larger population. 20 teams. i wonder what turned it around for us? after this debate i wonder if it was the metal bat? or at least it made more kids better hitters? i know there are more things today, but it makes me think. by the way,the high school had 2500 kids then 1100 now.

the hsbw in my opinion is made up of parents of the better players. your pitching sons will lower their era's, your hitting son's will eventually hit well with wood. but what will happen to the larger base os lower tier players? not college players, but the filler guys in hs, most of the LL guys that only have a few yrs anyway.

i think if it's all in from 9 to 90, eventually nobody will be the wiser.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I am sensitive to the slippery slope arguments. IMO, the public is willing to live with reasonable risk. I believe the only other change you might see safety-wise might be pitchers wearing helmets. Most don't seem to support that notion so I don't think it will go beyond wood bats. Since we live in a free society, I think debate on both sides of this issue is healthy.


Then again...

This is exactly what just pi$$es me off about the "safety" argument. If it was really about safety, the bat would be about the third or fourth thing people would be looking at.

You made this argument over and over here and it is a red herring. Just because it is fourth on the list does not disqualify it from being a viable consideration.

Look, I have been consistent. I am willing to consider head protection for pitchers. The majority of people think that is going too far however and are willing to live with some risk. Since safety option #1 seems unavailable at this time, then some other option further down the list is considered. Softballs and pitching behind L-Screens are probably not options people want to consider either so item #4 seems reasonable and logical.

For rz1 - your arguments that non-elite players will leave the game carries little weight with me based on my own personal experiences. The game of baseball is what attracts people to it not the type of bats employed. I can remember loving baseball as a kid with wood bats. In 1972, an aluminum bat was introduced on our little league team and sure enough, no one ever used wood again until we wore that one aluminum bat out. No doubt all of us could hit for more power with metal and we all saw the benefits of it. The point was that the game was big and good enough to attract us with wood. The same dynamic applies now. The game is bigger than metal imho. That is another study we can conduct in California. Did participation drop because of a switch to wood? I'll bet the answer is no but I am willing to let the data tell us the answer just as I am willing to let the data tell us if injuries per capita in California go down in the next two years.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
So you are not a "real ballplayer" unless you hit with wood? That's sad. That is the mentality that I'm talking about... safety issues is skewed because the pool is tainted with purists posing as concerned safety folks. If your so concerned, protect all the kids from balls hit from every type bat.[/color]


Apparently I was too flippant and you were too anxious to lump me with some imagined group.

I am not and have not ever argued about the safety of wood metal. I am simply stating that the game at the highest levels is played with wood and I see no reason, not even financial for high school and colleges to play the game with equipment that is illegal at the professional level. No other sport does that.

Now you can go back to arguing scientifically about injuries and safety with no viable data.
Last edited by Jimmy03
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:


Grandpa CD, tell us that story from 1972 when you had only one aluminum bat and when it wore out you had to cut down an ash tree and whittle a new bat out the trunk.......then tell us about those cars that used gas stuff

When the aluminum bat wore out we still had a bat bag full of Lousiville Slugger and Adirondack ash bats. I never liked the Adirondack's btw but I still liked baseball which I thought was a valid point. I was not making an "it was better in my day argument" and apparently you missed that nuance of my argument. I agree with robo-cop rz1 that it is indeed fun to hit with metal. I don't agree that it will affect participation. Not sure why you guys can't just let your arguments stand without getting pi$$ed off or trying to perjoritively demean the other side. If you believe in democracy and the strength of your arguments, then your side will win. I believe the data from the soon to be two-year California experiment with tell us otherwise.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rz1:
.....Not sure why you guys can't just let your arguments stand without getting pi$$ed off or trying to perjoritively demean the other side. If you believe in democracy and the strength of your arguments, then your side will win. I believe the data from the soon to be two-year California experiment with tell us otherwise.

You think that the anti-metal faction on this site has been "nice" to those who have accepted the changes in technology, and the game. I guess we should all side with CD and the wood faction and let the politicians decide what baseball should do.

I think you and many others have missed my point and that being protect our pitcher from line drives. I'm in favor of taking a step in a different direction and that is head gear for pitchers. If its safety you're worried about, why do it half a$$ed? I guess the head injury acceptable to you guys as long as the bat is wood? What would be the Gunner argument if the bat would have been wood?
Last edited by rz1
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
We live in a democracy ..D E M O C R A C Y...
Just for clarification since I've seen this twice now, we do not live in a democracy. In a democracy everyone would vote on every issue. We live in a representative republic. We vote for candidates to represent the masses.
Last edited by RJM
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
There’s no statistical proof that I know of that text-messaging is dangerous while we drive
Not true. There are states that statistically attribute more deaths to cell use than alcohol. Some of these states have pending legislation on hands free requirements. Some already have hands free requirements. One state has pending legislation on eliimination of any use by hands that is a distraction from driving (cell use, smoking, eating, shaving, make up, etc.).
Last edited by RJM
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Apparently I was too flippant and you were too anxious to lump me with some imagined group.

You can never be to anxious on a message board because the statement is there and poster is gone so you call it as you see it. In a normal conversation f2f the statement would be better explained and the reply would be more calculated. As far as that imagined group.....Many on this site have stated that regardless of injuries that occur, baseball should be wood only because of tradition, that is not an "imagined" group.

quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
...and I see no reason, not even financial for high school and colleges to play the game with equipment that is illegal at the professional level. No other sport does that.

I don't think that the HS football size is the same as the pro ball. The seams on the HS and college baseball are more raised, and in basketball the ball is different sizes at different levels. The kicking tees in football are different than the pro level also. That argument does not hold water IMO
Last edited by rz1
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
[QUOTE]You made this argument over and over here and it is a red herring. Just because it is fourth on the list does not disqualify it from being a viable consideration.
QUOTE]

My comments were not directed towards you so much as the general "passionate" voices of those that are so insistent that this is a dire "safety" issue and it's "all about the kids"

I don't think that is the case at all and I don't believe for a second that their number one priority on this topic is safety. I don't believe it for a second.

In fact, the red herring itself is safety. Safety is the vehicle they have latched onto in order to get wood back into the game. I have no doubt that is the case. None what so ever.

Like I said, if this truly were about safety then these same people would be advocating the things that would have a FAR great impact that the bat and they are dead silent on those issues.

Where are those same voices telling everyone to write or call there legislators to create more laws making their pitchers wear helmets or move the mound back or enact a softer baseball? Where is their passion for that? Those calls are non existent because again, this really isn't about safety. It can't be.

Funny thing is, every time this topic comes up, just as soon as it is shown that moving to wood will not really have any measurable impact at all on safety, the discussion immediately shifts to "quality of the game" which is what it really is all about to begin with.

Like I have said many times before....I am more than fine with getting wood back into the game. Just be honest about the motives behind it and DON'T set precedents via legislation that opens the door to things NO ONE wants...those things WILL come and there can be no doubt about it. They will if you open that door. People have their head buried in the sand if they think that isn't the case.
B brute66100+ posts
"Sometimes we have to swallow our memories and accept the fact that the enjoyment of playing the game is left to those who now play, on their terms, and by their rules."


Excellent point. Looks like the terms and rules in California are about to change. Kids there can learn about the hollow bat era from misty-eyed metal bat sentimentalists.

"I remember thinking my '65 Nova was the best car of that time, then I got a '74 Charger."

Hmmm...today, one of those is a valuable classic and the other a forgotten clunker. Can you guess which is which?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:


I don't think that the HS football size is the same as the pro ball.


Incorrect. Middle school, yes, high school and college, no.

quote:
The seams on the HS and college baseball are more raised


Not necessarily. That's function of quality of ball purchased, not rules.

quote:
...in basketball the ball is different sizes at different levels.


Remember, I addressed high school and college, and in the men's games the ball is the same size as in the pros

quote:
The kicking tees in football are different than the pro level also.


In size only, not material or technology.

quote:
That argument does not hold water IMO


Yes, indeed it does. Everything you come up with, even when you are wrong, which was often, related to size, not technology or material.

The equivalent argument in baseball would be the size of the bat, not the use of materials.

Nice try, though. I've been expecting someone to try to argue that high school football allowing a 1" taller kicking tee to be the same thing as metal bats in baseball.
Last edited by Jimmy03
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
quote:
Not sure why you guys can't just let your arguments stand without getting pi$$ed off or trying to perjoritively demean the other side. If you believe in democracy and the strength of your arguments, then your side will win. I believe the data from the soon to be two-year California experiment with tell us otherwise.


Are you kidding me? Have you seen the way I have been treated because I dared to speak out against the "old timers" that are so passionate about their stance that this is somehow a "safety" issue?

I am sure there are plenty of newer posters out there who would never post their opinion now based on the reactions that I have received. I have pretty thick skin so it's no biggie for me but that comment was laughable.

What makes you think a two year moratorium will show anything differently that the last 30 years have shown?

Also, I made a suggestion on another thread that went completely untouched. Not a single comment. It was a suggestion to get the people who hit with wood involved in a statistical gathering mission and it was met with stone cold silence. My suggestion was something that could actually get to te root of the issue for once and for all instead of just talking about it on a message board. The response I got told me everything I needed to know. They don't WANT to get to the facts because they know the facts do NOT support their stance that this is a safety issue.

Once again, reinforcing the notion that this has nothing to do with safety for those so passionately decrying that metal should be outlawed. Nothing at all…
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
They don't WANT to get to the facts because they know the facts do NOT support their stance that this is a safety issue.


I have no horse in the safety issue, primarily because of the lack of facts to support either side Even the metal bat industry has stated that there is lack of data to appropriately decide the issue. So your argument that the facts don't support the "other" side is weak at best.

That's why I half-heartedly welcome the California move. After two years, we may have actual data to support one side of this issue or the other.

Until then, however, I guess both side will just have continue to accuse each other, accurately, of having no data to support their positions. Either that, or calm down and wait until the data comes in.
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
quote:
If you believe in democracy and the strength of your arguments, then your side will win. I believe the data from the soon to be two-year California experiment with tell us otherwise.


So if that were the case, then why does the "safety" crowd rely on clueless politicians jamming legislation down our throats that has absolutely zero basis on fact?

The fact is, the FACTS are not on the side of the "safety" advocates and that is exactly why they take this to the courts in the first place.
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
"I have no horse in the safety issue, primarily because of the lack of facts to support either side Even the metal bat industry has stated that there is lack of data to appropriately decide the issue. So your argument that the facts don't support the "other" side is weak at best."

People are claiming that metal bats are more dangerous. They have no facts to back up that claim. It isn't up to metal bat manufactures to produce facts that say their bats are NOT more dangerous. It's up to those making the claim that they are.

The famous "When did you stop beating your wife" quote come to mind.
1baseballdad1baseballdad100+ posts
quote:
Reason for:

-3 length to weight ratio: SAFETY

BESR rating: SAFETY

BBCOR rating: SAFETY

Metal bat moratorium: SAFETY

Seems like there's been a lot of focus on bat design for reasons of safety over the last couple of decades. Nothing new at all


Absolutly. All issues managed within the baseball community and not the courts.

These people want to ban metal before BBCOR takes affect for a reason and it has nothing to do with safety.

That 2 year "moratorium" makes it that much easier to move to a ban. That is how it works...BBCOR or no BBCOR. They know exactly what they are doing.
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