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quote:
Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
"I have no horse in the safety issue, primarily because of the lack of facts to support either side Even the metal bat industry has stated that there is lack of data to appropriately decide the issue. So your argument that the facts don't support the "other" side is weak at best."

People are claiming that metal bats are more dangerous. They have no facts to back up that claim. It isn't up to metal bat manufactures to produce facts that say their bats are NOT more dangerous. It's up to those making the claim that they are.

The famous "When did you stop beating your wife" quote come to mind.


I am making no such argument. As you say "People are claiming that metal bats are more dangerous[than wood]"

There is no reputable data to support that.

People are also saying wood bats would be just as dangerous as metal. Again, there is no data to support that.

And despite your contention, metal bats do have to indicate a level of safety of their product by consumer law. What they have been unable to do, with good reason, is compare significant data with wood because of the lack of information on wood bats used by the same age groups as metal bats.

Relax. No one should be afraid of the truth whether it supports them or not. What the worse case? You could be wrong and kids could end up safer? Or "they" could be wrong and kids are just as safe now as they would be with wood. Isn't it about the kids? Either way, with appropriate information, they'll win.
Last edited by Jimmy03
The game does change, but using wood bats has never changed at the professional level. The wood bat has changed in some cases, but only wood is legal.

If injury proof is needed to prove metal is more dangerous, that "proof" probably isn't available in amateur baseball. You would need the same skill level players, hitting equally with both wood and metal. I do hate to think of what might happen if MLB was played with metal. Corked bats are illegal in professional baseball because they supposedly provide an advantage. Metal bats have had to change manufacturing standards because of safety, but technology allows for some to make a more lively bat than the competition, which IMO is more dangerous. Those would be the most popular bats. Competition forces maufacturers to create the liveliest bat. Manufacturers of the safest bat, haven't got a chance! Who would buy that bat?

I do think there is plenty of proof that more balls are hit hard with metal. We could base that on our own tournaments. The same exact teams and players get more hits and score more runs in the metal bat tournaments than they do in the wood bat tournaments against the same competition. The 7 inning games average 30 minutes longer with metal.

We also see the same hitters take bp and hit with wood and then hit with metal. The difference is mind boggling, especially in the frequency of hard hit balls. At the Metrodome in 2008 we had some balls hit out with wood. Rawlings sponsored a metal bat HR contest and all of a sudden balls were landing deep in the upper deck. (Same hitters, different bat)

And from a traditional standpoint, I actually believe that kids often prefer the wood bat. The largest tournaments (most players and most teams) in baseball history (on full size fields) are the WWBA (wood bat) tournaments in Georgia. Besides the 200+ teams in this year's 17U, there were over 200 other teams that wanted in this year. I think younger kids actually want to play the game the same way the "Big" boys play the game.

All that said, I still enjoy the game whether it's metal or wood. I really do believe the game is both better and safer with wood. The statistics that would relate to insurance companies might not show additional risk, but common sense and my eyeballs see it differently. Any advantage that goes to the hitter becomes an additional safety factor for the pitcher and others within close range and it's not always about getting hit by a hard line drive.

Maybe the insurance companies need to add up how much they are paying for arm surgeries for young kids these days. After all, there is no question that metal bats require more pitches. I actually believe this can be proven by checking the statistics in college regular season vs the summer wood bat college leagues.

Also I believe "Harv" made a very valid point regarding other injuries (which can be documented). We see many topics talking about overuse and abuse of pitchers.

quote:
Wood bats will definately result in more ground balls, more shallow fly balls, less pitches per out, less pitches per pitcher, shorter games, less home runs and an increase need for "small ball" if you want to win.

It will probably result in less pitching injuries but, as a pitcher being struck by a ball sufficient to cause injury is already a rare occurance, being able to prove it would be like finding all 3 needles in that hay stack....you know their there but its hard to prove to someone who didn't see them go in there in the first place.


IMO, Harv's first paragraph speaks volumes about one reason why wood should be considered safer than metal. We will never eliminate risk, it will always be there. It wouldn't make sense to argue players need to "be tough" and except the risk, when the highest level in the world uses something completely different.

As far as politics and government involvement in baseball, I don't know what to think. That's another issue all together. BTW, Do the environmentalist have an opinion on the wood vs metal debate?
quote:
The point was that the game was big and good enough to attract us with wood. The same dynamic applies now.
I disagree. When we were kids baseball was THE game. Now it's just one of many options for kids. I'm concerned about baseball in the next generation when that generation of dads (my son's generation) played spring s0ccer, lacrosse, spring basketball or X Game sports over baseball. When we were kids we had baseball, period.
quote:
These people want to ban metal before BBCOR takes affect for a reason and it has nothing to do with safety.


Very interesting. What is that reason, exactly? Do you believe there is a conspiracy to:

- destroy metal bat company profits?
- destroy HS batting averages?
- destroy Northern White Ash forests?

This is the first I've heard of a shadowy hand behind the safety issue. Please enlighten us.
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
My son hit with a $40 bat all summer. He broke one bat.

From an outsiders view it would sound like he needs to make more contact. Wink Big Grin


After hitting with wood last summer you should see the results with metal this spring hitting every ball on the sweetest part of the barrel.
rz1- I don't think that the HS football size is the same as the pro ball.

jimmy- Incorrect. Middle school, yes, high school and college, no.

rz1- then what about this size/pattern chart football sizes
--------------

rz1- The seams on the HS and college baseball are more raised

jimmy- Not necessarily. That's function of quality of ball purchased, not rules.

rz1- Is that a yes or a no on conformity?
-----------------------

rz1- in basketball the ball is different sizes at different levels.

jimmy- Remember, I addressed high school and college, and in the men's games the ball is the same size as in the pros

rz1- I'll buy the size relationship but I've played with all those types and can tell you it there is a difference in feel that results in a difference in performance

rz1- The kicking tees in football are different than the pro level also

Jimmy- In size only, not material or technology.

rz1- Now you're splitting hairs. It is still about performance
------------------------------
Last edited by rz1
quote:
Is "safety" the only acceptable reason to ban metal bats? Who made that decision?


Jimmy,

IMO there are many good reasons for using wood vs metal. Safety is just one of those reasons. Maybe not even the most important reason, but it is the one thing that will probably get the most attention.

To be totally honest... I don't really care "why" amateur baseball goes to wood, just that it happens.

Problem is the other benefits are not sufficient enough to cause change. The only other thing that could cause the change and it has happened to an extent is popularity. IMO many kids want to play with wood now days.

I don't know what the "statistics" show when it comes to injuries related to wood or metal.

I can find out what the "statistics" show when it comes to batting averages, power numbers, number of pitches, length of games, types of outs, etc. related to wood or metal.

I actually enjoy reading everyone's comments, no matter how they stand on this topic. Many very good points made both ways. I think we need to respect all opinions
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
rz1- then what about this size/pattern chart


Read what you linked to. HS and college footballs both fit within the PRO size specs.

quote:

rz1- Is that a yes or a no on conformity?


It's the specs are the same.
-----------------------

quote:
rz1- Now you're splitting hairs. It is still about performance


No, I'm not splitting hairs. You are. Using your logic, we'd stay with the same material and alter the size.
Last edited by Jimmy03
PG:

I have no issue with your posts on this issue. I have no issue with any reasonable position.

I do not have the information I feel is necessary to take an educated position on the safety issue. And while that obviously doesn't stop some, I'll wait for a while to see if it is collected, most likely, in California.
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
Jimmy- you speak of specs, don't bats now have to fall within certain specs? Oh, that's right WE want the government to dictate specs


Metal bats have had ever changing specs, first, it was claimes, to act the same as wood. Now, however, the claim is to make the act "more like" wood.

I don't get the "we". Are you including yourself in with those who wish for the government to dictate specs? I certainly have never desired that. The only comment I have made regarding the govenrment is that one good thing of California's moratorium is that finally we may be able to collect the data to accurately solve this argument.

Unlike some, I will refrain from taking a side on the safety issue without accurate data.

Anyway...feel free to go on. I need to get to a double header....three man crew and I've got the first dish.
quote:
I don't get the "we". Are you including yourself in with those who wish for the government to dictate specs?

Since I am a patriot, and should act like one, I've been asked by some on this site to trust that the government will make all things better. Obviously I've been misled thinking that the government is in this fight because it is the popular thing to do even if they have no data to support the view. Apparently they are baseball experts disguised as bureaucrats.

Good luck with the game Jimmy
Last edited by rz1
I wish people would quit saying there is no data regarding the safety issue. PG just provided lots of anecdotal data that supports the argument.

People sign their kids up to play baseball. They don't say "If there is no metal bat, I am signing them up for LaCrosse or Soc-cer"

1baseballdad it seems like it is life or death that you win this argument. I am convinced you have a dog in this fight. You own stock in Easton?

My proposed test would be that at the end of the college baseball season, the top 100 hitters in college baseball are sent to Tropicana Field in Tampa where they each use aluminum bats and each hit 100 balls off a pitching machine where each ball is measured for distance. At the end of the college summer wood season, the same players go back to the Trop, and they perform the same test using wood.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
I'd like to look at the wood/metal subject from a slightly different angle with regards to safety.

I'm not going to get into the debate concerning exit speeds. I'm not smart enough and I do not have the data. But the other day I was listening to Tony Gwynn Sr. as he discussed hitting with both and he touched on the aspect that I believe is the focal point for this discussion...the size of the sweet spot. His numbers were 6" for wood and 18" for metal. Those numbers tell me that it is not unreasonable to expect 3 times as many "quality" hits from a metal bat as opposed to using wood. And this also tells me it is not unreasonable to expect a similar ratio of "quality" balls hit back at the pitcher thus raising the potential for injury.

Pitchers will always be hit. The question is what is reasonable risk.
quote:
People are also saying wood bats would be just as dangerous as metal. Again, there is no data to support that.

And despite your contention, metal bats do have to indicate a level of safety of their product by consumer law. What they have been unable to do, with good reason, is compare significant data with wood because of the lack of information on wood bats used by the same age groups as metal bats.

Relax. No one should be afraid of the truth whether it supports them or not. What the worse case? You could be wrong and kids could end up safer? Or "they" could be wrong and kids are just as safe now as they would be with wood. Isn't it about the kids? Either way, with appropriate information, they'll win.


I couldn't agree more with the bolded statement. As for the "worst case", I have stated it over and over. The very second you run and outlaw a product based on absolutely ZERO evidence that it is inherently more dangerous, you open the door to continue down that path even further and further. Real life has taught each and every one of us that bitter lesson. People can choose to ignore that fact all they want but it is a fact, none the less.

So I will turn it back on you. In addition to banning metal, why not mandate helmets, softer baseball and increasing the distance the mound currently rests from home plate? After all, "it's for the kids" and if it doesn't increase safety, the kids are still safe and if I am right, the kids have a much better chance of avoiding serious injury whether they are hitting, fielding or pitching.

Sure seems like a win win to me but I don't see anyone clamoring for that, do I...

"metal bats do have to indicate a level of safety of their product by consumer law."

Thank you for making my point. Large plastic bags also have to indicate that they shouldn't be put over ones head based on consumer law. Roll Eyes
quote:
PG just provided lots of anecdotal data that supports the argument.


I can provide as much anecdotal evidence you could ever care to see on the other side of the issue. That is just the point.



Main Entry: an·ec·dot·al
Pronunciation: \ˌa-nik-ˈdō-təl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1836
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : anecdotic 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal details>
And since it was completly ignored in the other thread, I will post it again.

This was addressed to PG...




You guys have a unique opportunity to actually be in a position to further this discussion with factual information on this subject.

After several threads of beating this to death, I wondered what in the world could we (the baseball community having this discussion) do to get past this stage of the discussion? How do we move it forward one way or the other and get it out of this rut?

You guys hold how many wood bat tournaments a year with how many teams participating? What a great way to start compiling statistics as it pertains to number of at bats vs. pitcher or infielder injuries due to balls being hit back at them. I would think that after just one season you would have more than enough at bats to put some meaningful data together. You also attract the best of the best so there could be no way anyone could question the caliber of hitting when providing those statistics. You could even co-ordinate the efforts with other major wood bat event holders.

This only captures one side of the equation but at least it is a start. Throw a little PR behind it and it might be enough to get others involved to ensure the metal side is represented in the study as well. Heck, throw a challenge out to the metal bat makers to join your efforts for the study. Use safety as the hook. After all, they are very certain their product isn’t inherently more dangerous than wood so it could be a bit embarrassing if they didn’t rise to such a challenge.

If you could get the PR for something like this, it would give you the platform to speak to the virtues of hitting with wood vs. metal and in the end, even if the results come back and say that statistically, there is no difference in safety, you have been given a great stage to make your case regardless. It seems almost everyone agrees that for the integrity of the game, wood is by far the better choice for HS ball and above. What a great way to get that message out. Who knows, in the end, you may also be able to show that metal is indeed more dangerous than wood.

What I am saying is it should be a win win for the wood crowd no matter what. It gets the wood vs metal debate out of this ditch and shifts it to something that is just about impossible to argue against.

Just thinking out loud which almost always gets me into trouble.
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I wish people would quit saying there is no data regarding the safety issue. PG just provided lots of anecdotal data that supports the argument.
anecdotal evidence: Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy. IMO anecdotal evidence is not data. IMO, data is a conclusion drawn on controlled results.

People sign their kids up to play baseball. They don't say "If there is no metal bat, I am signing them up for LaCrosse or Soc-cer"
Of course not, they may go in that direction the next year when the kid spends most of his time walking back to the dugout after that deep fly ball to SS

My proposed test would be that at the end of the college baseball season, the top 100 hitters in college baseball are sent to Tropicana Field in Tampa where they each use aluminum bats and each hit 100 balls off a pitching machine where each ball is measured for distance. At the end of the college summer wood season, the same players go back to the Trop, and they perform the same test using wood.

Let's set your test up to so that the data is skewed right off the bat...no pun intended. College players should not be swinging metal under any situation let alone using their data as a benchmark. These tests have to be set up in a controlled environment using mechanical force. There is no way you can get scientific data using human subjects as the force.

Just to set the record straight as if anyone really cares, I should state my opinion before also being accused of holding an Easton stock portfolio....

I'd take it to a different level.

College should be wood without a doubt, right now it's ridiculous.

Select ball should police themselves, they are smart and usually consist of pre-college players anyway.

No change in LL.

And finally, HS should stay as is, with more work being done to drop that exit speed to a realistic level while maintaining an "ease of use" concept because of the differential in HS talent levels around the country. With that said, because of the disparity in in talent I feel that for the safety of the kids on the bump, regardless of the bat type, some form of head protection should be mandated for pitchers.

As rz1 ducks for cover
Last edited by rz1
quote:
Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
quote:
PG just provided lots of anecdotal data that supports the argument.


I can provide as much anecdotal evidence you could ever care to see on the other side of the issue. That is just the point.



Main Entry: an·ec·dot·al
Pronunciation: \ˌa-nik-ˈdō-təl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1836
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : anecdotic 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal details>

You are starting to badly lose these arguments. Anecdotal evidence is used in court all the time. It is called eye-witness testimony. You can choose to ignore it since it is not a scientific study but that does not make the underlying facts false.

Where is your anecdotal evidence to counteract PG's data:
quote:
I do think there is plenty of proof that more balls are hit hard with metal. We could base that on our own tournaments. The same exact teams and players get more hits and score more runs in the metal bat tournaments than they do in the wood bat tournaments against the same competition. The 7 inning games average 30 minutes longer with metal.

We also see the same hitters take bp and hit with wood and then hit with metal. The difference is mind boggling, especially in the frequency of hard hit balls. At the Metrodome in 2008 we had some balls hit out with wood. Rawlings sponsored a metal bat HR contest and all of a sudden balls were landing deep in the upper deck. (Same hitters, different bat)
quote:
Originally posted by brute66:
Yes...especially if you are trying to evade the question of whether more balls are hit hard with metal.

I don't think that's ever been argued. The issue is line drives at the pitcher....period. Todays kids are stronger, in many cases more trained in the art of hitting, and pitchers throw harder, combine those and you have increased potential. To close your eyes and say wood does not have the similar potential, is ignorant. Is the issue pitcher safety or bringing back the past tradition of wood only. If it's safety, address that but not half a$$ed. By eliminating metal alone, you are only showing your hand of wanting to turn back the hands of time. It's no longer your game to play, it belongs to those who play it now. IMO

I don't think many parents would agree with the thought of.

If you're driving over 40mph I want that seatbelt snapped, if it's under 40 you should be able to react or take the brunt of the collision.
Last edited by rz1
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
Originally posted by brute66:
Yes...especially if you are trying to evade the question of whether more balls are hit hard with metal.

I don't think that's ever been argued. The issue is line drives at the pitcher....period. Todays kids are stronger and in many cases more trained in the art of hitting, and pitchers throw harder, combine those and you have increased potential. To close your eyes and say wood does not have the similar potential, is ignorant. Is the issue pitcher safety or bringing back the past tradition of wood only. If it's safety, address that but not half a$$ed. By eliminating metal alone, you are only showing your hand of wanting to turn back the hands of time. It's no longer your game to play, it belongs to those who play it now. IMO

Totally falacious argument. The issue is about reducing risk and how far are we willing to go to achieve that end. If it were completely about safety, then we would outlaw baseball.

People want to see the risk reduced but seem willing to live with some risk. I don't have a problem with pitchers wearing helmets but again, that does not completely solve the safety problem. I believe this California moratorium is a wonderful idea. It will provide the absolute rebuttal data you are looking for and still allow hitters in Wisconsin to enjoy the sport yet not have to switch to LaCrosse because they don't like wood.
quote:
You are starting to badly lose these arguments. Anecdotal evidence is used in court all the time. It is called eye-witness testimony. You can choose to ignore it since it is not a scientific study but that does not make the underlying facts false.


I am really at a loss as to how to respond to you if you can't see the difference.

"Eye witness testimony" in court involves ONE incident. Just one. If PG watches a kid get nailed by a come backer hit off metal, no one can deny that happened. How on earth to you make the leap that therefore all metal bats will do that when a kid hits with them?

The "anecdotal evidence" you want everyone to consider draws from the views of one person and attempts to correlate it to the happenings of an entire sport.

Seriously, if you can't understand the difference then I just don't know what to say. And this has absolutely NOTHING about me trying to "win" an argument and I sincerely hope that isn't what this is about for you.

Its about trying to talk some common sense into a bunch of people who are using safety in order to push an agenda and they are having none of it. The facts aren't there so lets ram it down peoples throats via a law.

Again, I see my suggestions to PG are going completely unnoticed. Why is that?
quote:
Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
quote:
You are starting to badly lose these arguments. Anecdotal evidence is used in court all the time. It is called eye-witness testimony. You can choose to ignore it since it is not a scientific study but that does not make the underlying facts false.


I am really at a loss as to how to respond to you if you can't see the difference.

"Eye witness testimony" in court involves ONE incident. Just one. If PG watches a kid get nailed by a come backer hit off metal, no one can deny that happened. How on earth to you make the leap that therefore all metal bats will do that when a kid hits with them?

The "anecdotal evidence" you want everyone to consider draws from the views of one person and attempts to correlate it to the happenings of an entire sport.

Seriously, if you can't understand the difference then I just don't know what to say. And this has absolutely NOTHING about me trying to "win" an argument and I sincerely hope that isn't what this is about for you.

Its about trying to talk some common sense into a bunch of people who are using safety in order to push an agenda and they are having none of it. The facts aren't there so lets ram it down peoples throats via a law.

Again, I see my suggestions to PG are going completely unnoticed. Why is that?

Sir, you are the one who seems having trouble understanding. A person tesitifes they saw someone cross the street. That is one piece of anecdotal information. The same person tesitifes they saw 10 people cross the street at 10 different points in time and that is 10 pieces of anecdotal evidence.

I posted PG's data. Where did anyone say he saw "one" kid get hit and therefore metal bats should be banned?

The argument here is that more balls get hit harder and that increases the risk - capish? PG said he saw very few balls hit for home runs using wood (see quote above). He said he saw lots and lots of them in the upper deck with metal and the same guys swinging the bats (see quote above). Do you understand that that is more than one piece of anecdotal data? Moreover, which ball is likely to cause more harm? The upper deck velocity ball or the barely over the fence velocity ball? Perhaps you don't believe in physics?
There have been a couple of suggestions here that a California moratorium would allow us to get an apples-to-apples comparison of injury rate between metal and wood bats.
Sounds great: a large state where all high school players have been using metal bats switching to wood. Appples to apples.

But.....if we want to know if next year's wood bat rate is higher or lower (if the law passes), don't we need to know the injury rate for last year or this year?

Who has that data?

And if you stop to think about it, what constitutes an injury? The criterion used in the NCAA/summer league comparison was participation. If a pitcher lost practice or game time due to a batted ball injury, then that injury was supposed to be counted.

That sounds good to me, but who is keeping track? Is there a centralized or dispersed collection of that data? I'm sure not aware of it.

Perhaps we could start collecting the data next year. Let's suppose that the CIF really wanted to find out. They could require each school's AD or principal to report batted ball injuries that cost participation time. I expect players and coaches will tend to fudge the reports, but the fudging will probably be about the same regardless of bat type. Actually, if we want to understand baseball safety, shouldn't we be gathering this kind of data for all injuries?

I don't expect that we will undertake this kind of effort; in fact, we probably don't even want to know that, for example, a player's greatest risk of injury is a pulled muscle. But without some kind of concerted effort, no useful data is going to be collected.
Injuries, including those that are serious, are an integral part of sports. Nobody of character wants to see an injury occur but occur they do. Sprains, strains, tears, pulls, bruises, unfortunaetly breaks and even more unfortunately head injuries.

You get hit wrong in football you might end up like Darryl Stingley or Mike Utley. How do you completley prevent those injuries? Short of not playing the game you don't. You can try to minimize their chance of happening but in the end the odds are it will happen. Bodies moving at high speeds in a multitude of directions invariably result in collisions that once in a great while have catastrophic consequenses.

Baseball is set up in such a way that the pitcher is the most vulnerable due to his proximity to the batter. Suggestions have been made that they wear helmets. That may prevent some serious injuries but short of putting a mask on as well the pitcher is still open for serious facial injury. See Bryce Florie. A helmet would not have helped him in any way. Hit him square in the eye.

I'm for moving away from metal bats and going to composite wood. This will reduce (not eliminate) the number of high impact balls hit back at the pitcher.

I am also for instituting training programs that help players improve their ability to deal with these extreme situations.
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
The argument here is that more balls get hit harder and that increases the risk - capish?
I don't think anyone has argued that fact, However, and I repeat myself, compared to the pre-metal era, today's kids are stronger, in many cases more trained in the art of hitting, and pitchers throw harder, combine those and you have increased potential in all aspects of the bat material used. I'm going to guess that PG will attest to those physical player characteristics also. Why not address the problem as a whole, instead of despising the loss of the wood tradition and ignore that the greater potential with wood than years gone by? Protecting the pitcher while allowing the game to evolve for those who play today should be the #1 priority without government intervention.
Last edited by rz1
PG, with their wood bat tournaments, are anything BUT stuck in the past. They are on the leading edge of progressive, competitive baseball. So are all the wood bat leagues and tournaments. Why? Because of the very changes to the game mentioned in this thread: stronger, better-trained players, and faster moving baseballs.

Sadly, the hollow bat proponents are the ones clinging to an outdated (albeit highly profitable), dying paradigm where $400 superbats rule the game. C'mon 1baseballdad, RZ1, 3FingeredLove...let go of the past. Embrace the future.
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
The argument here is that more balls get hit harder and that increases the risk - capish?
I don't think anyone has argued that fact, However, and I repeat myself, compared to the pre-metal era, today's kids are stronger, in many cases more trained in the art of hitting, and pitchers throw harder, combine those and you have increased potential in all aspects of the bat material used. I'm going to guess that PG will attest to those physical player characteristics also. Why not address the problem as a whole, instead of despising the loss of the wood tradition and ignore that the potential with wood is there also? Protecting the pitcher while allowing the game to evolve for those who play today should be the #1 priority without government intervention.

PG posted his observed homerun data from 2008. Big strong all-american new-age players could barely hit them out with wood and when they did they hit few of them. The same strong, new-age guys were hitting upper deck shots frequently with metal. Are you arguing that kids are much stronger now than in 2008?

Seriously, you guys (rz1, 1baseballdad) seem more interested in winning an argument. Not only are you guys losing the arguments imho, you are losing your credibility in the process. This whole argument is about whether or not metal bats increase risk to the pitcher. It is not about whether or not wood will prevent Gunner Sandberg's injury. I do believe it is valid to argue that Gunner's injury would have been less severe with wood. Kinetic energy in a baseball is related to the square of the velocity. Increase the velocity and hence the energy, increase the damage.
quote:
CD quote:
Are you arguing that kids are much stronger now than in 2008?


Read again, slower this time, and grasp the word "pre-metal" before you throw me under the bus and discredit me. Also check on the bottom of page 5 where I stated my actual opinion. I full heartily agree that metal bat exit speeds need to be modified to satisfy future agreed upon specs by experts, the other difference is that I feel pitchers need to be protected by line drives in general regardless of wood or metal. All of this without government intervention. IMO It can be done.

If you want to ingrain in the minds of members on this site that I'm an unknowing schmuck, so be it, but get the facts straight. It's taken 2 to tango throughout this thread and you've anointed yourself as righteous and anyone who questions your opinion as un-credible. That is not fair and out of respect and friendship I would never go to that level with you.
Last edited by rz1
quote:
Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
[

So I will turn it back on you. In addition to banning metal, why not mandate helmets, softer baseball and increasing the distance the mound currently rests from home plate? After all, "it's for the kids" and if it doesn't increase safety, the kids are still safe and if I am right, the kids have a much better chance of avoiding serious injury whether they are hitting, fielding or pitching.



You have me confused with someone arguing the safety issue. I am not, sorry.

I believe wood should be used becsuse that's the way the game should be played and is played by those who play it best. I do not believe there is sufficient comparative data to argue safety, so I don't.

You'll need to find someone else to argue with.
Jimmy how were your games today?

The funny part of WI baseball is that a metal bat would have been a bad idea today as temps only made it to the low 40's and dropping to 30 tonight. I'll bet that voids any warranty. I guess it's just another reason ban metal Wink .

As a kid I remember the teachers telling us not to put our tongues on the metal playgound equipment because it will freeze to it and rip the skin right off. I always wondered why you would lick it to begin with Confused.

I can just hear a LL coach on a cold Saturday WI May morning "watch my signs, keep your eye on the ball, and don't lick the bat". On the bench the first aid kit needs no ice packs and the Big League Chew will have the texture of a Jolly Rancher.
Last edited by rz1
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Originally posted by rz1:
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CD quote:
Are you arguing that kids are much stronger now than in 2008?


Read again, slower this time, and grasp the word "pre-metal" before you throw me under the bus and discredit me. Also check on the bottom of page 5 where I stated my actual opinion. I full heartily agree that metal bat exit speeds need to be modified to satisfy future agreed upon specs by experts, the other difference is that I feel pitchers need to be protected by line drives in general regardless of wood or metal. All of this without government intervention. IMO It can be done.

If you want to ingrain in the minds of members on this site that I'm an unknowing schmuck, so be it, but get the facts straight. It's taken 2 to tango throughout this thread and you've anointed yourself as righteous and anyone who questions your opinion as un-credible. That is not fair and out of respect and friendship I would never go to that level with you.

Why are you personalizing it this way? No one annointed anything and I am not ingraining anything. You are putting arguments out there and you are the one who controls whether they are credible or not.

For the record, what is your argument? Now it appears you are arguing that the specs need to be the same between wood and metal. I am not trying to be a wise-guy here, self-righteous, or anything but if the specs are the same between wood and metal, then that cuts against a previous argument you made. You said you feared participation would drop if we did away with metal. All I am asking you to do is be intellectually honest with your arguments as opposed to playing devils advocate for the sport of it. If the specs are the same, wouldn't participation drop based on your previous argument against using wood?

My argument is simple and it is based on data (PG's homerun derby data in 2008 for example), and physics. By going to wood, we will reduce the risk. IMHO, that is all this topic is about. Arguing pre-metal players, whether kids will drop out without the excitement of metal, slippery slopes leading to a draconian distortion of the game, government control, etc, does not change the validity or nature of the risk argument.

The other argument you appear to be making is if we cannot go full-blown and protect the pitcher with helmets etc, then it is not worth doing anything with the bat (correct me if I am wrong on that). In case you missed it, I started the thread about helmets for pitchers. There does not seem to be enough political support for that idea. That does not negate the argument that we ought not reduce risk via the bat however. Again, it would be appreciated if we did not personalize this debate.
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
Jimmy how were your games today?

The funny part of WI baseball is that a metal bat would have been a bad idea today as temps only made it to the low 40's and dropping to 30 tonight. I'll bet that voids any warranty. I guess it's just another reason ban metal Wink .

As a kid I remember the teachers telling us not to put our tongues on the metal playgound equipment because it will freeze to it and rip the skin right off. I always wondered why you would lick it to begin with Confused.

I can just hear a LL coach on a cold Saturday WI May morning "watch my signs, keep your eye on the ball, and don't lick the bat". On the bench the first aid kit needs no ice packs and the Big League Chew will have the texture of a Jolly Rancher.


Thakns for asking. I had a couple of decent games. One of my partners working U1 missed a rotation so I had to hustle my butt to cover a close play at home. We had a good conversation about that between games.

I had my first college level ejection of the year in the second game. Assistant coach, while the skipper is arguing a call with one of my partners came up to me and said: "Jimmy, you know we've always liked you but your partner is a F@#$ing C***S*****" I gave him the opportunity to shower early and get home in time for dinner with the family.

I see the argument with no sufficient data is ongoing as those arguments will. There will/can be no winner today. But I guess that's not the point. Apparently practicing keboarding skills is on several folks' agenda.

Y'all enjoy.
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Again, I see my suggestions to PG are going completely unnoticed. Why is that?


1baseballdad,

I noticed those suggestions. Sounds like some pretty good suggestions. What else do you want me to say?

BTW, the things I've mentioned are observations rather than evidence. And regarding that definition of anecdotal evidence given by rz...

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anecdotal evidence: Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy. IMO anecdotal evidence is not data. IMO, data is a conclusion drawn on controlled results.


If anything, (IMO) I am very trustworthy! Smile We even have video that shows those hitters with metal and wood.

BTW, kids who can't hit... can't hit... doesn't make a lot of difference if it is wood or metal!
Last edited by PGStaff
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For the record, what is your argument?

Passing baseball issues to a governmental body that has no expertise, is basing its knee-jerk "moratorium" on a single incident, and the fact it opens Pandoras box for future interventions/moratoriums when a heart string is plucked is my argument. What happens if a pitchers death occurs as a result of a wood bat line drive? What happens when the maple bat explodes and a serious injury occurs? Guess who steps in and makes some new moratorium if the right group demands action and bases it on past actions. The slippery slope has big talk when standing on the top, but is a nightmare when sliding down.

If the baseball community mandated change and bans metal I'm behind it 110%. I'm on-board with the issue I just do not agree with the government being part of the resolution. I think baseball is strong enough and smart enough to get it resolved from within. If bat consensus with various States and organizations is not there, baseball has to figure out why, and work for an accepted standardization from all involved.
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Originally posted by PGStaff:
If anything, (IMO) I am very trustworthy! Smile We even have video that shows those hitters with metal and wood.

No matter how PG's observation is classified, it doesn't change the underlying facts of the observation (i.e., he noticed more balls being hit harder with metal). I am not sure why we are playing lockerroom lawyer on this one and arguing about the nature of the observation - scientific versus anecdotal.

rz1 - thanks for the clarification.

1baseballdad - perhaps you can clarify your argument.

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