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Can competitive athletes be developed this way?

RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
I had a little time to kill yesterday after overestimating my time of travel. I stopped by a LL Majors game for a while. After every at bat, including strikeouts the hitters got an ovation from every parent on both sides, a high five and a pat on the rear from his coach upon return from the dugout. I didn't see one kid remotely bothered he struck out. On the worst fielding attempts there was a chorus of "good effort, good effort." Success was mildly applauded. Failure was masked with applause. Failure seemed to get more support than success. I went to their website this morning. They belong to the Positive Coaching Alliance. I realize very few LL'ers will still be playing by high school. I realize they are supposed to have fun playing baseball. But can a kid learn to compete on the baseball field and in life by having his failures soothed out into a non event every time? Is protecting a kid from feeling the pain of failure a positive? I believe failure is a motivation to improve because failure isn't fun. I'd rather tell a kid who flailed away at three pitches I'll work with him to improve him (give him hope) than make failure a non event. This question is philosophical. Please don't turn it into a rec v. travel debate based on the merits of playing rules.

** The dream is free. Work ethic sold separately. **

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zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
Just as long as they're not cheering when a kid goes back to the dugout who struck out looking at three pitches down the middle and is one of those kids who can't get the bat off their shoulder. That used to drive me crazy. You're not doing the kid any good by applauding failure. What's positive about a kid who stands there as a statue and the parents and coaches pat him on the back and say "nice try", you'll get em next time" when realistically you know the kid will stand there like a statue his next AB.
Last edited by zombywoof
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
I wouldn't know one way or the other if the PCA has anything to do with the mentality of today's coaches or parents. I would assume they probably don't but it still baffles me why failure is applauded. The only good that comes out of failure is you learn and grow from it which is a big positive but you don't applaud failure.

Whatever happened to just enhancing one's strong points and working on strengthening one's weaknesses.
Last edited by zombywoof
B Blprkfrnks100+ posts
Doesn't matter, as little league isn't where competitive athletes are developed. The more I look back on those years, which we really enjoyed, the more more I realize how unimportant any of it was for competitive development.

When I hear about T-ball all-stars, I laugh out loud. That is for parents trying to out-do other parents through their 5 year olds.

And for those that think this bodes poorly for our future, I also say "it doesn't matter". Every person will learn about competetiveness at some point in their lives.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
i'm not sure you can teach kids to be competitive athletes.maybe i'm wrong,all the clapping in the world wouldn't make my kids smile if they k'd.


My son got one of those participation trophies in LL when he was 9. The first thing he asked when he got it was "what's this for? we didn't win." I told him everybody gets one. He asked" why?"

He hated to lose then as he does now. However, when he was little and pushed the reset button on video games because he knew he was gonna lose, he had to learn to be a better loser and as he matured, he did. But he still hates to lose.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Blprkfrnks:
Doesn't matter, as little league isn't where competitive athletes are developed.




You can not learn the competitive edge unless the rest of the crowd is on the same page. The biggest drop off of LL participation is after the majors and that alone should tell you where the heart is. If you can't teach "take no prisoners", you might as well go for the best trait a kid can have and the is respect for others because that is missing many times in todays society.
Last edited by rz1
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
This sounds like our high school parents. They still say it is okay, good try, you'll get them next time on ground balls and fly balls dropped and watching strike three after watching strike one and two. I look like the evil king when I tell my son at first that if it thrown at him it should be caught in the air or bouncing at his feet.
I'm so sick of this it will be okay mentality. I think kids need to know that a ball hit to them is to be caught and a pitched ball is to be hit.
(Thanks for allowing me to rant.)
Let me give you the mood of our team. Two weeks ago we had five players walk out of the dugout in the fourth inning at 4:30 to go to the prom that did not start til 8:00. I could not believe that parents would encourage their player to walk off the field to go to a dance in the middle of a game. But that is what our sports world has come to.
T twotex1,000+ posts
What I see in the work force is two types: those with a sense of entitlement (no matter what the results), and those who are there to do the job and strive for better results.

I don't think I hang the entitlement mentality on LL, more of a function of what "we" as parents do when the kids get older. Some parents tell their kids just quit the team (mid-season) if you don't like how it's going for you. Seriously, it is disturbing.
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
I will say this: A confident player is a better player. Whatever instills confidence is the best way from where I sit, whatever that might be. As far as kids walking out of the dugout in the fourth inning, it would be the last day they were on any team I coached. There are lots of proms, but only so many baseball games. (Seriously, who is the genius who scheduled the game the same day as the prom?)
Last edited by jemaz
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
There are lots of proms, but only so many baseball games. (Seriously, who is the genius who scheduled the game the same day as the prom?)


Disagree here. For ballplayers, there are plenty more baseball games and practices than one senior prom in their lifetime. From my experience, many of these ballplayers would rather have that day off and go to the prom with their date. The only ones who'd rather play ball can't get a prom date. The prom only comes around once for these kids and they don't want to miss it.

Scheduling ballgames on prom days makes no sense at all and is too much distraction for these kids. Some flexibility in the schedule should be in place so that games can be rescheduled if possible.
Last edited by zombywoof
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jemaz:
...As far as kids walking out of the dugout in the fourth inning, it would be the last day they were on any team I coached. There are lots of proms, but only so many baseball games. (Seriously, who is the genius who scheduled the game the same day as the prom?)


I'll bet "walking out" of the dugout was done with the coaches blessing. If not, I'm with Jemaz in regard to the "last day" threat. On a lighter note..... Jemaz, you must have paid a mint for tux rentals if your sons school has "lots of Proms" Wink. As far as scheduling games on the day of prom...the guy who does it is either......

1. Not aware of the schools social schedule
2. Never went to his own prom and is still "working through it" in therapy sessions.
3. Is a father of daughters who does not trust bb players so he creates a "conflict" to blow up the date.
4. His HS team had games on prom day so everyone else should suffer if he had his say.
Last edited by rz1
C calisportsfan100+ posts
It seems we have lost track of what differentiates the competative player and the casual player. In little league it's okay to have everyone feel good and have fun. The player seeking more will have found a more competative arena to be playing in by Majors so why should we worry about others just having fun?
High shcool is the same way unfortunately. They fill the rosters with kids who don't have the same levels of passion and often I notice the entire level of play diminished by now in the season. That is happening on my son's team now. We actually employ a "rotation" to make sure it is mostly fair playing time. The errors and lack of basics like understanding the roll of a cut off man are killing me. I can barely go to the game. We could field a very competative team but choose to play little league style in high school. It is ridiculous. But unlike little league where you find a better place to play, high school has a monopoly. It kills me when we have a handful of potential college players who play 1 out of every 3 games so the little league graduates can kick the ball around the field on their turn.
While I do see a place for the feel good approach, it should clearly stop by high school!
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by calisportsfan:
It kills me when we have a handful of potential college players who play 1 out of every 3 games so the little league graduates can kick the ball around the field on their turn


What you're saying is cut or bench those classmates who do not have the tools and let those few players who will be going on to play college ball play all the time Confused . IMO, HS baseball is the last opportunity for the kids who will not go one to play at the next level to represent their school and play the sport they have passion for but average skills.

My son played on a team with many of those "average kids" and he felt good when they got a chance to play in front of their parents and peers. He had a baseball future, they will only have baseball memories. That is a hard concept for many parents of "elite players" to accept. The set rotation is a little weird, but sharing time at the right moments should be embraced by one and all.
Last edited by rz1
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
But unlike little league where you find a better place to play, high school has a monopoly. It kills me when we have a handful of potential college players who play 1 out of every 3 games so the little league graduates can kick the ball around the field on their turn.
While I do see a place for the feel good approach, it should clearly stop by high school!


Does this apply to varsity or JV & Freshman teams? If this is going on during JV & freshman games, the coaches might be more geared to finding how who can or can play and who will make an impact at the varsity level. They probably already identified those who could play.

If they use this approach on the varsity level, that would seem odd since the emphasis on is on winning at the varsity level than splitting playing time for development which is why there's JV and freshman teams.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jemaz:
rz and zomby:

I agree with you both. I was hoping my sarcastic point would come through. It is simply astounding to me that the game was scheduled on the day of the prom. The situation should never have existed.


LOL..sometimes, it's easy to miss the sarcasm on a board post, however, you're right, that situation shouldn't have existed or at least, an effort should have been made to avoid this schedule conflict.
Last edited by zombywoof
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
IMO, HS baseball is the last opportunity for the kids who will not go one to play at the next level to represent their school and play the sport they have passion for but average skills.


I agree with that in that most HS players don't play beyond HS and many varsity coaches will look for spots to get their seniors that ride the bench some playing time they might not get as underclassmen which is a good thing. Decent coaches know how to do this seamlessly.

As for the average skill players, that's true but there are also many above averge players who hang up the spikes after their senior year as well who could've done well at the college level but have decided to move on after HS.
Last edited by zombywoof
T twotex1,000+ posts
quote:
IMO, HS baseball is the last opportunity for the kids who will not go one to play at the next level to represent their school and play the sport they have passion for but average skills.

-----------------------------

In our district, JV is for development and varsity is for competition, so no one is guaranteed time at the varsity level. Let the below average kid represent his school at the JV level.

IMHO, there's nothing wrong with competition at the high school level. You are not doing an 18 year old a favor by letting him play if he's not as good as the others. Life doesn't work that way.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
Competitive atheletes are probably born that way IMO. They either have overwhelming talent or high talent and high work ethic. How they are treated at LL age will not effect they're competitive spirit.

There are more traumatic and frequent incidents along the way that will effect them more than a pat on the back for striking out.

Positive reinforcement is always a good thing although in cases like this it should be doled out with constructive criticism and instruction.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by twotex:
In our district, JV is for development and varsity is for competition, so no one is guaranteed time at the varsity level. Let the below average kid represent his school at the JV level.
That sounds like the words of an "elite" players parent Wink . I basically agree with the statement but I think our locations dictate our difference in opinions. In our area there are very few cuts, schools with 1500 students are considered huge, there is no baseball from Oct thru March. We have two types of players. A few who go to the next level, and the pack who have some good skills but not recruitable, or have no plans to attempt to play at the next level. As a result IMO the inner-team intensity and negative parental involvement is probably not at the same level as yours. Most of our kids play for the passion of the game, there is very little separating #'s 5-15.


IMHO, there's nothing wrong with competition at the high school level.
Absolutely, it only makes players and the team better

You are not doing an 18 year old a favor by letting him play if he's not as good as the others.
If he's just going to be an a$$ on the bench....CUT him, or is he just there to carry equipment ?

Life doesn't work that way.
I'm guilty of using that cliche at times, and it's often from the elitist POV.

I wonder if my opinion would be different if I were the parent of the kid who works his a$$ off, does not see the game as the kids next step to immortality, and has to listen to Moms and Dads who perch their sons on a throne while belittling those less talented. I'll bet my attitude toward HS sports may be different than those who use it as a virtual stepping stone to the next level.

Can you use this phrase describing HS baseball "competitive atmosphere, in a social surrounding, with classmates enjoying a team environment, and where when all is said and done lifelong memories outweigh the team record"?
Last edited by rz1
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
If he's just going to be an a$$ on the bench....CUT him, or is he just there to carry equipment ?


Exactly. If a player is that much worse than his peers, you cut him. A HS senior who has made it all four years in a program or made the varsity at some point typically are good enough players to be where they are and if the coach calls their number, it's assumed they are capable of doing the job. Personally, in a tight spot, I'd be less confident with an inexperienced underclassman with more talent than the senior who grinds it out and less talent because I feel is less likely to be overwhelmed/overmatched in a key situation.
Last edited by zombywoof
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
On the prom subject, it was the junior prom and 2 of them did not even have dates. The game was scheduled as part of a tournament and the game was changed. The coach had to let them go but not freely.
I will say that some of the comments on here are the ones I expected from the LL crowd. Everybody play, have fun, enjoy life. That is for LL, rec, and middle school not varsity baseball. I believe the best should play and you play to win. If you are not good enough, don't play and they should be cut.
I had major problems with the kids and their parents that walked out. The interesting part is most are football players, so is my kid, and would be appalled if a player walked off the football field at halftime to get ready for a dance or anything else.
Our world has become so politically correct that it is now wrong for a coach to kick a kid off who walks out on his teammates. What happened where varsity baseball became a place for everyone to play rather than playing to win?
Hawk19Hawk19100+ posts
First of all, I think they're applauding the effort, not the result although I do think they go overboard at times....However, I'd much rather see that than the overly competitive 'stud' fist pumping every strikeout of an overmatched opponent....(and I won't even mention the parents in the stands)

My son plays small school baseball. There are no cuts but the best nine play. Consequently, the team is 'self-cutting' and by senior year anyone not starting has quit. I don't really understand why, in a big school with FR and JV teams, seniors that weren't good enough to play V would still be around if they were unhappy with the situation.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Our world has become so politically correct.....


PC is a 4-letter word to me. However I see it more as a knee-jerk reaction that attempts to separate itself from the thug mindset that began to take hold years ago. While I don't fall into the PC group I can see where it is a very safe place to be.
T twotex1,000+ posts
quote:
That sounds like the words of an "elite" players parent . I basically agree with the statement but I think our locations dictate our difference in opinions. In our area there are very few cuts, schools with 1500 students are considered huge, there is no baseball from Oct thru March.


My son's school has fewer than 500 students so no one who showed up to play was cut. There's no baseball from November until April, so maybe our situations are similar. My son does get plenty of playing time, so maybe that colors my views.

I would add that your disagreements were very politely stated, and I respect that you see things in a different way.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by twotex:
I would add that your disagreements were very politely stated, and I respect that you see things in a different way.

I thought you stated your point with solid opinion which I respect. I also think it goes to show that there are different strokes for different folks. Many of my HS opinions are based on experiences 7+ years ago. Some may call that "recent", it is still 2 generations of HS classes, so what do I really know?

Times change, mindsets change, and you can't turn back the clock, but, IMO the best way to build your own opinion is to breakdown the "looks" of others, old and new. This site is chocked full of opinions, listen, support those you agree with and respectfully disagree with those you differ with....if you have something constructive to say.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
A HS senior who has made it all four years in a program or made the varsity at some point typically are good enough players to be where they are and if the coach calls their number, it's assumed they are capable of doing the job.
If a kid sticks it out for four years, there's an extra uniform and the kid understands his place on the team I believe it's ok to keep him on the team. My son's varsity had one last year. He chased foul balls and was an active cheerleader on the bench. He was liked well enough and respected enough to lead from the bench.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
[QUOTE]QUOTE]If a kid sticks it out for four years, there's an extra uniform and the kid understands his place on the team I believe it's ok to keep him on the team. My son's varsity had one last year. He chased foul balls and was an active cheerleader on the bench. He was liked well enough and respected enough to lead from the bench.


From what I've seen when my son played, the active cheerleaders or those who played little didn't return their senior year. I don't blame them. What's the point putting all that time in when they'll never see the field while they could be working after school making some loot or just doing something else other than ride the pine and watch others play. I know if my son was a bench warmer or cheerleader on the HS team, or no matter what he did in tryouts/preseason that he wasn't gonna play, he would've quit and not waste his time.

However, if you got one of those players just happy wearing the uniform and leading the team from the bench, then that's fine I suppose as long as he's content with that. It beats getting into trouble because they're bored after school.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
As for those players who walked out of the dugout to leave the game 4:30 for an 8:00 prom, I'd bench those players too. While scheduling games on prom days makes no sense, these players are on the team, made a committment and I would support a coach for benching these players who left the team that day. You just don't do that.
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
I just did not understand the need for guys to leave 3 1/2 hours early for a dance, especially the ones who couldn't get dates. But this same group does not understand why my son will leave the first week in June and be home 2 days until July 23 for baseball. They say it is not worth it and that he should have fun. His statement is that baseball is what I love and playing all summer is fun.
It goes back to the mindset that in most high schools (not all) there are a few, maybe one in some schools, that really love baseball and then there are those who just want to play. The problem is that it presents the mindset of playing for the love of it or just playing for the fun of it.
I guess that is why we love summer ball. Almost everyone is out there for the same reason and gives their all, all the time.
N njbb1,000+ posts
Our HS coach rescheduled games on prom day and the week of the Sr.trip he excused the Sr's who were going.
I think the high school now has half day on prom day.
It could take 3 1/2 hrs to pick up a tux, get cleaned up pick up your date,take pictures then back home for more pictures and then there is pre prom.

I think there is more to the high school experence than sports. there needs to be balance between work and play. A good coach will understand that and work with the school and the players.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
I think there is more to the high school experence than sports. there needs to be balance between work and play. A good coach will understand that and work with the school and the players.


Couldn't agree more. The prom is a big deal and we too had half day on prom day. I think my son had a half day too. You do need those 3½ hrs and some more for the running around and getting ready for the big night.

Baseball is just part of the school experience as it should be.
Last edited by zombywoof
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
So, would you guys agree that a player would walk off a football field at halftime to get ready for the homecoming dance afterwards. What is the difference? If you are committed to playing and I think this is the problem between those who want it and those who are playing for the fun of it, then you would make it work.
Again, I could see if it was in lieu of prom but this was hours before.
The coach let them go but I would have had them sit the next game. There has to be some retribution for walking out on your teammates for most circumstances.
I don't think the coach has as big a problem as the players who were left there to play when their teammates walked out on them.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
Whether they're playing HS baseball for fun or those who want it is irrelevant. It's HS and HS is more than about baseball. Everybody plays HS baseball for different reasons


Walking off the field isn't the right thing to do and don't have a problem with some sort of penalty. Now if the coach approved them leaving early and was prepared to replace the players, then that shouldn't be a problem. The best thing is for the coach to work with the school so things can be scheduled accordingly.
tres_arbolestres_arboles1,000+ posts
Jeff Connell wrote:
quote:
But this same group does not understand why my son will leave the first week in June and be home 2 days until July 23 for baseball. They say it is not worth it and that he should have fun. His statement is that baseball is what I love and playing all summer is fun.


Mister Wheat, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Chaff!

I understand the mindset your son's teammates possess. But I find it really refreshing when I read about kids who are directed and passionate about a pursuit enough to forgo what other kids would call "fun" to follow their chosen passion. Sounds like your kid is the wheat and his buddies are just the chaff!

David
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