wogdoggy,
I agree with you here and it is pretty much the conclusion that I came to. As CoachB25 says a lot on here, Richard was a huge promoter of PCR and was as passionate as he is now about BHT or "handle torque". You can go back and read the "short to zone and long through zone" thread and see for yourself. He was "Linear" at the time. Do I think Richard is sincere in helping kids learn to hit? YES! He parted with the information about "handle torque" that finally got it for me and in PMs was very cordial. Whether anyone wants to believe that what Richard has to offer is worth it's salt is totally up to the individual, but I do believe he is sincere. Tactful.....uhhh....no, but passionate and sincere, no doubt in my mind. I liked the way Swingbuster and now Tom present the concept and keep their cool when being challenged. I wish Richard could have that same presence, but he is who he is and I doubt that will change. I think CoachB25 does an excellent job of promoting PCR and does it with class and loyalty to his friend and I can find nothing wrong with either of those traits. There is no doubt that PCR has and is developing very good High School players and College players. The only thing in question to me is can it work at the MLB level and if and or when they have an example there, all of this will be for naught, because it will be proven that both mechanics work. Until then, the tennis match with an occassional shouting match will continue.
If I might, I'd like to clear up a few things. First, yes, Richard and I aren't friends. I'd leave him alone if I could. I find myself in positions where I have to speak up and/or on this board take an action. Each time he has been removed, I believe he himself knew he'd get booted and yet, made a post that resulted in that action. Nuff on that other than I rarely give him a thought otherwise. I do check out his son's progress but more as a fan than someone looking for negativity.
Regrading PCR, I try my best to avoid promoting any philosophy. I will defend Steve when people made assertions that aren't true. I will continue to do so. I'd do the same with you if you were my friend. BTW, some of the assertions, speaking as one who knows, are absolutely misleading and some are misguided. They obscure the basic tenants of PCR. I'll leave it at that.
Regarding various posters, I think it reprehensible that some posters on this site have felt the need to create multiple identities in order to win arguments and/or promote their cause. I've avoided calling them out but have sent several my opinions on this matter via pms. I find it interesting that many of these same individuals continue that practice.
Regrading PCR, I try my best to avoid promoting any philosophy. I will defend Steve when people made assertions that aren't true. I will continue to do so. I'd do the same with you if you were my friend. BTW, some of the assertions, speaking as one who knows, are absolutely misleading and some are misguided. They obscure the basic tenants of PCR. I'll leave it at that.
Regarding various posters, I think it reprehensible that some posters on this site have felt the need to create multiple identities in order to win arguments and/or promote their cause. I've avoided calling them out but have sent several my opinions on this matter via pms. I find it interesting that many of these same individuals continue that practice.
Shawn, I am not Richard, I don't go around telling people "nonsense" all the time. I guarantee you he thinks he can help Robert Stock. So why would he word that any other way.
If Stock follows incompatible cues, he will not develop an effective MLB pattern.
Incompatible cues would include most PCR favorites.
he should avoid things like:
Bend way over, stay down, turn like heck, keep front foot closed,hit with back shoulder,lots of lead arm/shoulder tension, just hang on to bat.
Incompatible cues would include most PCR favorites.
he should avoid things like:
Bend way over, stay down, turn like heck, keep front foot closed,hit with back shoulder,lots of lead arm/shoulder tension, just hang on to bat.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
If Stock follows incompatible cues, he will not develop an effective MLB pattern.
Incompatible cues would include most PCR favorites.
he should avoid things like:
Bend way over, stay down, turn like heck, keep front foot closed,hit with back shoulder,lots of lead arm/shoulder tension, just hang on to bat.
And so you see, it is impossible to stay out of these discussion. I'll be back with some clips. YHF would now suggest that I'm pushing my agenda and yet, wouldn't claim the same for Tom. Ironic!
“Bend way over,”
PCR (Posture Connection and Rotation) followers refers to this as Posture or Tilt. We wouldn’t let the truth get in the way but the phrase is to tilt at the pelvis and have a “sense of having your butt stick out.” Of course Tom that is "way over." (Per his quote above)
Note, this is taken off of a site consider to be pro PCR and so, I’d suggest that this “tilt” is exactly what is preached in PCR.
“stay down, turn like heck”
Known in PCR terms as Rotations. Of course, we all know that MLB players not only don’t rotate, if the do, they do it slowly. (Per Tom’s Quote)
I believe this swing demonstrates a lot of what would be expected out of connection and rotation.
“keep front foot closed”
A concept that not only goes to PCR, but also Lau and a few others. I believe in The Art of Hitting .300, Lau mentioned this as a goal but also mentioned that it was impossible to achieve.
NOTE THE PREVIOUS VIDEO AT CONTACT AND THAT FRONT FOOT!!!
“hit with back shoulder”
First, to be clear, Tom believes that the shoulders are bypassed totally.
If you looked at the parallel lines of this photo, it is very easy to see how such a phrase is intended. It is no better nor worse than many other cues. Any cue needs to have an explanation of intent. Those on Steve’s site, not only see video to demonstrate this concept, they also have video of it being done incorrectly. A kind of “working your way through the process” video support library on the shoulders.
“lots of lead arm/shoulder tension”
Regarding this theory on “bypass” and shoulders. Tom et. al. also suggest that the scapula complex is also bypassed.
I just can’t figure out what the wrinkles in Guerrero’s shirt represent!
The lead arm tension is referred to as a “box.”
Tom disregards the “box." You be the judge based upon what you see in video. I’m betting that there is tension in that. Now, they don’t like the word “tension” but they fall all over themselves with “torque.” Note, the “box” isn’t supposed to be rigid. It moves during the swing process. If you froze this video at certain spots, you’d see a box configuration. At others, you'd see a Parallelogram. Naturally, you’d also have that point in the swing prior to contact where the unhinging occurs. Nothing contradictory to PCR!
“just hang on to bat”
Certainly what we’d expect is that all MLB players quote certain Mantras as they hit. Tip and Rip, maintain separation, create that triangle, hands to the ball etc. Or just maybe, when they hit, they “clear the mechanism,” as one poster cites in his signature and just hang on to the bat and swing. Just a guess! NO VIDEO REQUIRED!
FYI, I'M NOT TRYING TO PROMOTE PCR WITH THIS POST. I am refuting some of Tom's statements. I suppose YHF would suggest that I've given up my rights to do so because I moderate this forum. I do hope it is OK to point out misrepresentations.
quote:Originally posted by Pronk:
Shawn, I am not Richard, I don't go around telling people "nonsense" all the time. I guarantee you he thinks he can help Robert Stock. So why would he word that any other way.
Pronk,
I didn't say he didn't believe he could help, he's delusional. It's like the crazy guy with the sign that says "The End is Near". He believes it, but he can't show any evidence. And please don't say the evidence is in the video. richard himself was using the exact same video to prove the opposite about 1 1/2 yrs ago. Let him prove it by showing someone develop some RESULTS.
My point, which I'm sure you got, is not that richard doesn't beleive it but that you Know it was intended as a slap, yet you say you don't beleive that to be the case. Again, extremely naive or untruthful. Your choice. Regardless, it seems rather sad that you jump to defend an a@@h*** when someone calls him out for boorish behavior.
CoachB25, is a moderator and has opinions on hitting philosophy......IMO, nothing wrong with that.....He has a track record, is proud of it, should be, and deserves to speak his opinion as much as anyone else on here......I don't think he participates enough, but, that's just my opinion.....
We look at video and see different things.....I like to hear what everyone thinks they see in the video.....I don't think anyone is entirely right or entirely wrong......I have contended that MLB hitters don't all swing alike.......Aaron's swing is not the same as Dunn's swing on prety much the same low pitch location....We've seen the video over and over........The swings are different......Why they are different and what the differences are, is in the eye of the beholder....But, the swings are different....And, I've never studied Ichiro's swing, but, by most all accounts, his swing is different than most other MLB hitters......
I will say it again.........Not all MLB hitters swing alike.......There are differences in the swings of MLB hitters........
Now, the battle between Richard and Steve has been on-going for a long time.....It'll probably never stop.....Others have gotten dragged into the fray.....The torque disagreement will probably always be a sideshow.......There is alot of history to keep it all going.......
As for who's right and who's wrong?......Nobody is entirely right, they never are!
As for multiple identities on this board....Why not say who they are?
We look at video and see different things.....I like to hear what everyone thinks they see in the video.....I don't think anyone is entirely right or entirely wrong......I have contended that MLB hitters don't all swing alike.......Aaron's swing is not the same as Dunn's swing on prety much the same low pitch location....We've seen the video over and over........The swings are different......Why they are different and what the differences are, is in the eye of the beholder....But, the swings are different....And, I've never studied Ichiro's swing, but, by most all accounts, his swing is different than most other MLB hitters......
I will say it again.........Not all MLB hitters swing alike.......There are differences in the swings of MLB hitters........
Now, the battle between Richard and Steve has been on-going for a long time.....It'll probably never stop.....Others have gotten dragged into the fray.....The torque disagreement will probably always be a sideshow.......There is alot of history to keep it all going.......
As for who's right and who's wrong?......Nobody is entirely right, they never are!
As for multiple identities on this board....Why not say who they are?
Just a thought on keeping the front foot closed. I read a few posts back that Lau suggested it as a goal and that is was impossible to acheive. Many years ago I told my youngest son that he needed to keep that front foot closed as he usually pointed it to the pitcher (he was in LL). A few weeks later I heard of an older kid on the HS team (that was a lefty also) was up to bat. This kid did keep his front foot closed and when his hips opened up, the spectators said you could hear the kids tendons/ligaments ripping in his front knee. That kid was out and never played baseball again. When I heard about how this kid ripped his knee up, brilliant dad that I am, I made a point to my youngest to open up that front foot and don't worry about keeping it closed. Ouch!
Tim Robertson
Tim Robertson
Tim R, take a look at all of the video or photos above. That is what is meant.
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Tim R, take a look at all of the video or photos above. That is what is meant.
Coach,
All of the guys feet look to be at 45 degrees to me. Is that what is meant? Not to let it fly open? As far as Vlad goes, I think the wrinkles in his shirt are from negative move upper body and positive move lower body (opening) is that what's happening in your opinion?
I know you've said you can't say much on here about the specifics of PCR, but what about inviting Steve on here for a Q & A sometime? It may even help his business if he can explain his position on here. Just a thought. It makes it tough when you only get one side of the equation. I'm not speaking just for myself, I'm looking at it from a person's perspective of not having an opinion in the first place, but looking for answers. I would kind of consider it free advertising to some extent.
Powertoallfields,
Steve E has a Public forum that anyone can sign up for and ask questions. That's precisely the reason he has a public forum. It's especially meant for the person you described, someone not having an opinion in the first place, but looking for answers.
As for coming here, I think few would argue that it would be particularly productive use of his time. He's better off servicing his current customers than re-hashing old arguments with the same people over and over again. For the new folks looking for answers, his web site is easy to find.
Steve E has a Public forum that anyone can sign up for and ask questions. That's precisely the reason he has a public forum. It's especially meant for the person you described, someone not having an opinion in the first place, but looking for answers.
As for coming here, I think few would argue that it would be particularly productive use of his time. He's better off servicing his current customers than re-hashing old arguments with the same people over and over again. For the new folks looking for answers, his web site is easy to find.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Tim R, take a look at all of the video or photos above. That is what is meant.
Coach,
All of the guys feet look to be at 45 degrees to me. Is that what is meant? Not to let it fly open? As far as Vlad goes, I think the wrinkles in his shirt are from negative move upper body and positive move lower body (opening) is that what's happening in your opinion?
I know you've said you can't say much on here about the specifics of PCR, but what about inviting Steve on here for a Q & A sometime? It may even help his business if he can explain his position on here. Just a thought. It makes it tough when you only get one side of the equation. I'm not speaking just for myself, I'm looking at it from a person's perspective of not having an opinion in the first place, but looking for answers. I would kind of consider it free advertising to some extent.
Again, some of those video postings are from a website that is supportive of Steve's ideas. In referencing that front foot, I think the idea of front foot closed and the reality that it will rotate some either in foot plant OR as the rotation of the hip and shoulder complex initiate is the reality. BTW, I say Steve E but to make it clear, I posted that as an observation to make clear that what was presented by others as "what Steve teaches" and the reality are different. I'd also like to point out that many posters here have my "stuff" in the form of handouts. In those handouts, you'd see the same interpretation as those videos. ie. front toe closed is the intent and is also impossible.
To make clear, I think that the point about researching all of the various ideas and then coming to one's own conclusions is EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD ALL DO. Then, when you find the one that fits the bill for you, get after it. In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best assit for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!
Coach and JJA,
I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"
I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if someone went to buy a house they would already have an idea of what area they want to live in, what type of house, how many bedrooms, possibly a preferred builder whose work they have seen before. IMO, it would be a waste of time to go look at every house on the market before deciding which one you want to buy. Heck, by the time you saw them all, you may just be able to move into the nursing home.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Coach and JJA,
I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"
take a kids hands away and ruin his athletiscm.my opinion,, the hands just dont hold the bat,,the HANDS set the tilt..not the tilt setting the swing path,,dead hands equal dead end..no running start no opposite field power.its two completely different theories..
COACH B 25 says
In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best asset for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!
just a lil biased huh?
You make a common sense request. However, I guess the difference would be between one's advocation and one's vocation. (I stole that off of Scott S. from a argument he was in last week and so, I wanted to note that I'm not that smart.) I also understand that with all of the various philosophies out there, these message boards serve in the recruitment process like it or not. Take HI for example, their followers post all of that video which display "Properties" of HI. Appealing to some no doubt. Philosophies and their success also depend upon the number of success stories generated. After all, saccharine was touted to be a great sweetener and then it was discovered to be a carcinogen.
Well, I have gone too long again. Here is the shame of it all. Say we believe in x's philosophy. If x's philosophy is sound, I don't have to attack any one else's philosophy. On this board, we have several members that can't make a post, support their argument and leave it at that. They have to also engage in an attack. JMHO!
Well, I have gone too long again. Here is the shame of it all. Say we believe in x's philosophy. If x's philosophy is sound, I don't have to attack any one else's philosophy. On this board, we have several members that can't make a post, support their argument and leave it at that. They have to also engage in an attack. JMHO!
quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Coach and JJA,
I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"
take a kids hands away and ruin his athletiscm.my opinion,, the hands just dont hold the bat,,the HANDS set the tilt..not the tilt setting the swing path,,dead hands equal dead end..no running start no opposite field power.its two completely different theories..
COACH B 25 says
In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best assit for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!
just a lil biased huh?
OK, if HI is your cup of tea, go there and get prepared for a grand welcoming and all of the baseball discussion you can stand.
Powertoallfields,
First of all, it's important to note that "handle torque" isn't an Englishbey vs Richard debate. Disagreeing with handle torque doesn't mean you're agreeing with Englishbey and his hitting philosophy. It's Richard vs the physics of what is happening in the baseball swing. Believe it or not, you can still be a "hands" guy without believing in handle torque. And the physics is clear. Handle torque is not a significant contributor to swing speed.
So what is that "bat blur" Richard sees if isn't caused by handle torque? There is a (correct) answer that doesn't require use of the term handle torque.
Given that this is the core "finding" of Richard, as the entire foundation of HI is based on handle torque, "bat blur" and "forearm swivel" for now I prefer not to answer. Some of the HI guys led by their fearless leader like to bash everyone, myself included, with lots of insults. Sorry, but I'm not ready at this point to help out people like that. I've given out one hint on BBF already, and I'll give one more hint here: there is stuff in this thread that should make the answer obvious.
-JJA
First of all, it's important to note that "handle torque" isn't an Englishbey vs Richard debate. Disagreeing with handle torque doesn't mean you're agreeing with Englishbey and his hitting philosophy. It's Richard vs the physics of what is happening in the baseball swing. Believe it or not, you can still be a "hands" guy without believing in handle torque. And the physics is clear. Handle torque is not a significant contributor to swing speed.
So what is that "bat blur" Richard sees if isn't caused by handle torque? There is a (correct) answer that doesn't require use of the term handle torque.
Given that this is the core "finding" of Richard, as the entire foundation of HI is based on handle torque, "bat blur" and "forearm swivel" for now I prefer not to answer. Some of the HI guys led by their fearless leader like to bash everyone, myself included, with lots of insults. Sorry, but I'm not ready at this point to help out people like that. I've given out one hint on BBF already, and I'll give one more hint here: there is stuff in this thread that should make the answer obvious.
-JJA
Not saying that I agree that the front foot should stay closed but it sure looks like Pujols can do it.
I cringe everytime I see this.
OR this one.
I cringe everytime I see this.
OR this one.
quote:Originally posted by tfox:
Not saying that I agree that the front foot should stay closed but it sure looks like Pujols can do it.
I cringe everytime I see this.
Looks like 45 degrees to me. The picture is shot from a slight angle in the front. Look at his knee though, it's pointing straight at the Pitcher. Personally, I don't think the foot is all that important as long as it doesn't turn past straight toward the Pitcher and then I think you lose power. Dick Mills teaches to open the front foot to 45 degrees when pitching to, but some Pitchers do and some Pitchers don't, many point it directly at the target. I think the knees are the important part, but it's just my opinion.
OR this one.
Are you referring to the 2nd pic as being shot from an angle?
Pujols is straight on and his foot is even starting to roll over on it's side.I have seen several pics of him doing this and it looks painfull.
Pujols is straight on and his foot is even starting to roll over on it's side.I have seen several pics of him doing this and it looks painfull.
tfox,and what you'll see if the pictures were video, is that they will progress in a lot of cases to a 45 degree appearance. However, the goal is to maintain as long as possible. That front side will still have to get through.
Coach,in most cases,I agree but check out this pic,he is finishing his swing.OUCH.
http://www.collectiblesofthegame.com/product.php?produc...18147&cat=259&page=1
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Ex...es/AlbertPujols.html
This actually looks like something that might shorten his carrer.
http://www.collectiblesofthegame.com/product.php?produc...18147&cat=259&page=1
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Ex...es/AlbertPujols.html
This actually looks like something that might shorten his carrer.
I am not trying to argue,I actually agree but Pujols is an exception to the rule it seems,most of the time.
He doesn't seem to be trying to keep the front foot closed..........
quote:Regarding this theory on “bypass” and shoulders. Tom et. al. also suggest that the scapula complex is also bypassed.
Actually, I think Tom believes the scapula does get loaded.....
I believe arm action uses the scapula as a linkage....
quote:Originally posted by tfox:
Coach,in most cases,I agree but check out this pic,he is finishing his swing.OUCH.
http://www.collectiblesofthegame.com/product.php?produc...18147&cat=259&page=1
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Ex...es/AlbertPujols.html
This actually looks like something that might shorten his carrer.
Yes, he and Mauer both look scary as far as the torque that must be on that front knee, because it is pointing at the Pitcher on all shots.
Did you look at the links? He actually has some where the ankle is rolling over,not only the knee is being abused but so is that ankle.The knee is much worse though.
quote:Originally posted by tfox:
Did you look at the links? He actually has some where the ankle is rolling over,not only the knee is being abused but so is that ankle.The knee is much worse though.
I hadn't looked at them until you said something. WOW! He's the biggest contortionists I've ever seen. He can hit some nasty pitches and still hit them hard. He sits, he tilts, he pulls his arms around, it's crazy. Must be another learned skill that Latin players have. Maybe they have lots of bad Pitchers down there, lol.
I think his front foot position is kind of dictated on where the pitch is and whether he has timed the pitch right or not. I think the roll over is when he is out in front a little. He has a little bit of a dive front to back late in his swing. He adjusts a lot of body parts to get to some pitches.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:quote:Originally posted by tfox:
Did you look at the links? He actually has some where the ankle is rolling over,not only the knee is being abused but so is that ankle.The knee is much worse though.
I hadn't looked at them until you said something. WOW! He's the biggest contortionists I've ever seen. He can hit some nasty pitches and still hit them hard. He sits, he tilts, he pulls his arms around, it's crazy. Must be another learned skill that Latin players have. Maybe they have lots of bad Pitchers down there, lol.
I think his front foot position is kind of dictated on where the pitch is and whether he has timed the pitch right or not. I think the roll over is when he is out in front a little. He has a little bit of a dive front to back late in his swing. He adjusts a lot of body parts to get to some pitches.
Him being built like a brick ---- house has something to do with being able to hit all those nasty pitches hard but so does his mechanics.
Being able to contort and adjust are something that I would think most great hitters would have in common but I can't see many doing what he does with his front foot being good for staying healthy.
WOW,this thread has taken some detours.
B25 is a moderator on koolaid when it comes to hitting. he is just a mouthpiece for Steve E, unfortunately, who seems unable to exhibit independent thinking in this particular area of hitting mechanics.
He is just parroting the company line and apparently not taking hacks himself or observing more objectively what sort of trajectories are resulting from the various mechanical descriptions and cues he is describing.
You can look at Richard/Teacherman's experience in a number of ways.
The B25/Steve E way is, "the guy's a kook who jumps from one thing to another, what's next ?"
The way I "see it", Richard has seen the light which is the MLB pattern and how it is incompatible with and better than the PCR pattern for high level baseball.
You are going to have to use independent thought and take a risk and make up your own mind about this, OR you can just compartmentalize and turn the worry over to the guru and just be the blind follower/mouthpiece.
This doesn't mean you are a bad person, just giving up responsibility and accountability in one slice of your mind. That is a choice, however, and it will have consequences which may have to be considered.
As is well described now in golf by Hardy, the different swing patterns are incompatible and,even though based on the same underlying physics/biomechanics model, there are still swing possibilities that will conform to very different cues/learning.
In MLB, the PCR pattern will not work.
In golf, the mlb like pattern (2 plane) and the PCR like pattern (1 plane) can both work, not in MLB. As noted first by Lau SR, they all look the same at front foot down. They don't fly open/etc.
NOw one attempt at mind control is the attempt to say Richard is crazy because he talks about "bypassing shoulders" which is "scientifically impossible". That was addressed well here in the old separation thread by him and bluedog after richard was dismissed (moderator on koolaid), but of course B25 has forgotten that as part of his memory lapse related to his mind control/compartmentalization that comes from blindly following the PCR guru and not using his own independent thought.
As Hardy says in golf, swing instructors can promote one pattern or the other by telling you either:
"start the shoulders turning from the top" (1 plane sequence/pattern)
OR
" whatever you do, do NOT start turning the shoulders from the top" (2 plane pattern).
Steve E is intentionally mixing physics and cues here to discredit Richard and B25 is just following as a mouthpiece.
Before this was the ridiculous discounting of "hand torque" as impossible because the hands don't have big muscles. You need to experiment ans see whether you belive in handle torque or not, BUT it is by no means "scientifically impossible".
Another "set up the flawed strawman, then knock it down".
Works great in cults, not so much in learning swing patterns.
B25 is just spouting the party line here.
If you want to understand how to sort this out, you need the perspectyive of how BOTH patterns work which is what Richard has and is worth getting, even if you can't avoid some conflict.
He is just parroting the company line and apparently not taking hacks himself or observing more objectively what sort of trajectories are resulting from the various mechanical descriptions and cues he is describing.
You can look at Richard/Teacherman's experience in a number of ways.
The B25/Steve E way is, "the guy's a kook who jumps from one thing to another, what's next ?"
The way I "see it", Richard has seen the light which is the MLB pattern and how it is incompatible with and better than the PCR pattern for high level baseball.
You are going to have to use independent thought and take a risk and make up your own mind about this, OR you can just compartmentalize and turn the worry over to the guru and just be the blind follower/mouthpiece.
This doesn't mean you are a bad person, just giving up responsibility and accountability in one slice of your mind. That is a choice, however, and it will have consequences which may have to be considered.
As is well described now in golf by Hardy, the different swing patterns are incompatible and,even though based on the same underlying physics/biomechanics model, there are still swing possibilities that will conform to very different cues/learning.
In MLB, the PCR pattern will not work.
In golf, the mlb like pattern (2 plane) and the PCR like pattern (1 plane) can both work, not in MLB. As noted first by Lau SR, they all look the same at front foot down. They don't fly open/etc.
NOw one attempt at mind control is the attempt to say Richard is crazy because he talks about "bypassing shoulders" which is "scientifically impossible". That was addressed well here in the old separation thread by him and bluedog after richard was dismissed (moderator on koolaid), but of course B25 has forgotten that as part of his memory lapse related to his mind control/compartmentalization that comes from blindly following the PCR guru and not using his own independent thought.
As Hardy says in golf, swing instructors can promote one pattern or the other by telling you either:
"start the shoulders turning from the top" (1 plane sequence/pattern)
OR
" whatever you do, do NOT start turning the shoulders from the top" (2 plane pattern).
Steve E is intentionally mixing physics and cues here to discredit Richard and B25 is just following as a mouthpiece.
Before this was the ridiculous discounting of "hand torque" as impossible because the hands don't have big muscles. You need to experiment ans see whether you belive in handle torque or not, BUT it is by no means "scientifically impossible".
Another "set up the flawed strawman, then knock it down".
Works great in cults, not so much in learning swing patterns.
B25 is just spouting the party line here.
If you want to understand how to sort this out, you need the perspectyive of how BOTH patterns work which is what Richard has and is worth getting, even if you can't avoid some conflict.
Tom, good try. Notice that Tom uses one of the key tatics of "refuters" and comes with personal attacks. He suggest that I am incapable of thinking on my own and thus suggest his superiority.
Of course we all noticed that he didn't address my response earlier where I took each of his claims and presented evidence demonstrating discrediting his prior post. IN STEAD, HE ATTEMPTS TO DIVERT MEMBER'S ATTENTION WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACK.
Tom, here is the difference. I'm actually a coach. I put this "stuff" into practice, have students, have players and have credentials. You have, well Tom to be blunt, you've never done anything other than criticize others who are actually doing it hands on. I do hope this, you have a young man that is now in serious jeapordy with his high school career. You need to step up to that responsibility now. I'll be waiting for the results. Tom, do the right thing! BTW, I've offered to do so when he comes to my area. I will do the right thing. STEP UP TOM.
Of course we all noticed that he didn't address my response earlier where I took each of his claims and presented evidence demonstrating discrediting his prior post. IN STEAD, HE ATTEMPTS TO DIVERT MEMBER'S ATTENTION WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACK.
Tom, here is the difference. I'm actually a coach. I put this "stuff" into practice, have students, have players and have credentials. You have, well Tom to be blunt, you've never done anything other than criticize others who are actually doing it hands on. I do hope this, you have a young man that is now in serious jeapordy with his high school career. You need to step up to that responsibility now. I'll be waiting for the results. Tom, do the right thing! BTW, I've offered to do so when he comes to my area. I will do the right thing. STEP UP TOM.
B25-
based on others comments about other aspects of your knowledge, I suspect you know a lot and have a lot to offer, that is why I assume you must be on koolaid to be so off the mark on hitting mechanics to the point of just rehashing the old PCR dogma.
Compartmentalization.
everybody does it.
deal with it.
based on others comments about other aspects of your knowledge, I suspect you know a lot and have a lot to offer, that is why I assume you must be on koolaid to be so off the mark on hitting mechanics to the point of just rehashing the old PCR dogma.
Compartmentalization.
everybody does it.
deal with it.
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Coach and JJA,
I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"
take a kids hands away and ruin his athletiscm.my opinion,, the hands just dont hold the bat,,the HANDS set the tilt..not the tilt setting the swing path,,dead hands equal dead end..no running start no opposite field power.its two completely different theories..
COACH B 25 says
In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best assit for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!
just a lil biased huh?
OK, if HI is your cup of tea, go there and get prepared for a grand welcoming and all of the baseball discussion you can stand.
heres a real shocker *I DONT CARE FOR RICHARD*Imagine that.... BUT i think d mac and swingbuster had the mlb swing 'model'..unfortunately they werent able to teach it correctly to richard,BUT i do think Richard knows what DOESNT work...and I'll leave it at that..
wogdoggy,
I'm not aware of anyone who has ever disagreed with DMac about "Tip and Rip". It's clear lots of pros do it, and there is no doubt it can help higher level hitters. As an aside, my 14 year old son is learning some bat tipping right now as his core swing is now pretty strong and the bat tipping is helping his rhythm and power.
The issue has always been whether bat tipping is a skill to teach young ones. This is where Doug and I disagreed. The vast majority of kids I teach, basically 100%, go after the ball with their hands. Virtually none, and this includes some pretty high level players, know how to rotate their hips fully, get a proper sequencing of the upper and lower body, etc. For virtually all of these kids, bat tipping is the least of their needs. Doug was seeing lots of high level players, I'm sure all of whom knew how to rotate properly. At this stage, sure, tip and rip makes a lot of sense. But for the beginning players, it doesn't make any sense at all.
-JJA
I'm not aware of anyone who has ever disagreed with DMac about "Tip and Rip". It's clear lots of pros do it, and there is no doubt it can help higher level hitters. As an aside, my 14 year old son is learning some bat tipping right now as his core swing is now pretty strong and the bat tipping is helping his rhythm and power.
The issue has always been whether bat tipping is a skill to teach young ones. This is where Doug and I disagreed. The vast majority of kids I teach, basically 100%, go after the ball with their hands. Virtually none, and this includes some pretty high level players, know how to rotate their hips fully, get a proper sequencing of the upper and lower body, etc. For virtually all of these kids, bat tipping is the least of their needs. Doug was seeing lots of high level players, I'm sure all of whom knew how to rotate properly. At this stage, sure, tip and rip makes a lot of sense. But for the beginning players, it doesn't make any sense at all.
-JJA
quote:But for the beginning players, it doesn't make any sense at all.
It makes alot of sense to some people.......
quote:The vast majority of kids I teach, basically 100%, go after the ball with their hands.
Good....If they learn tip and rip and the right arm action along with separation, all they need to do is learn some timing and they're on the way........
"Two-plane swinging" and "how to rotate" are different body movement patterns, so pick one....
Bluedog,
You're clearly teaching players at a lot higher level than most of us are. I'll post a clip of a typical player that I get and you tell me that he/she needs to tip and rip and the right arm action. You clearly don't teach typical little leaguers or FPers.
-JJA
You're clearly teaching players at a lot higher level than most of us are. I'll post a clip of a typical player that I get and you tell me that he/she needs to tip and rip and the right arm action. You clearly don't teach typical little leaguers or FPers.
-JJA
N$man Jr-
The reason you and bbscout disagreed is that he knew what he was talking about and you do not have a clue.
The reason you and bbscout disagreed is that he knew what he was talking about and you do not have a clue.
OK Bluedog,
Here is a girl I got at the beginning of practice a couple of years ago.
Now look at this swing and tell me that she needs tip and rip, separation, and the right arm action. If you notice, she's using her hands to go to the ball. No "dead hands" here.
Tom, if and when you ever get to a field, this is what you're going to have to deal with. I'm looking forward to having you help players like this succeed.
-JJA
Here is a girl I got at the beginning of practice a couple of years ago.
Now look at this swing and tell me that she needs tip and rip, separation, and the right arm action. If you notice, she's using her hands to go to the ball. No "dead hands" here.
Tom, if and when you ever get to a field, this is what you're going to have to deal with. I'm looking forward to having you help players like this succeed.
-JJA
quote:Originally posted by jja:
OK Bluedog,
Here is a girl I got at the beginning of practice a couple of years ago.
Now look at this swing and tell me that she needs tip and rip, separation, and the right arm action. If you notice, she's using her hands to go to the ball. No "dead hands" here.
Tom, if and when you ever get to a field, this is what you're going to have to deal with. I'm looking forward to having you help players like this succeed.
-JJA
Good video of what teaching is all about.Atleast she is actually turning the hips,imo,a good sign.I actually see alot of potential there.
How's she doing now?
