Civility at HSBaseballWeb.Com

I would like to see all posters keep personal opinions and bias confined to private messages.  There are old and new posters alike who allow topics to quickly deteriorate to something that the rest of us don't care to read. So much so that many of us have limited our time on the board to private group messages....when this happens much of the learning aspects of this board becomes lost. Facts are facts, but before we lay out things that are only based on our personal views, please take a step back and think about how our comments add value before posting!

Do we solely discuss topics based on Fact? What facts? Who's facts? What happens when someone else's personal experience is totally contrary to those facts?

Yes we should always be civil. Yes sometimes things will get heated. So thank you for this reminder. But I don't think we need to limit discussion to what "some" feel are facts. Today's facts many times end up being yesterday's fallacies. JMO

2019Lefty21 posted:. Facts are facts, but before we lay out things that are only based on our personal views, please take a step back and think about how our comments add value before posting!

Sorry coach: Didn't mean to say that we should only discuss facts on the board. My apologies for offering comment that evidently didn't add value to the board...guess I shoulda thought more before I made my post! JMO

I agree with Coach May - we cannot even agree on facts these days in this society.  Things can be expressed as an opinion, a question, or an opinion designed to answer the question.  Certain thread topics arouse passions even if people are only expressing their opinions.    

I really didn't think I made a statement that said we should only discuss facts. Quite frankly I just said I would like for us all to think twice before we state things that are only based on personal views as to how that adds value to the discussion. Again, sorry if that was not clear 

"However, we draw the line at personal attacks, hostile discussions of religion or politics, and obscenity."

All the man is saying is keep it civil.

Things can and have gotten really heated on here. Some subjects are more "delicate" than others but there should never be any perosnal assaults. Stick to the subject please.

I am pretty sure this is sparked by some of the gratuitous insults hurled in the Recruiting thread about an NLI being pulled. 

It should go without saying that gratuitous insults are not welcome here.  In fact, personal attacks or insulting language should be avoided even if you think that you, among all other people here, have justification for slinging them.

The rule is that you may feel free to disagree, but you should do so without being disagreeable.  In the internet era, this is a rule of human interaction that many seem to have decided does not apply to them (though those same types seem to have hair triggers if they catch even the slightest whiff of anyone saying anything about them).  It may or may not qualify as "cyber bullying," but in any event it is unnecessary, unproductive, unenlightening, and without any redeeming social value.  So when you may feel inclined to indulge your baser instincts, just ... don't.

Facts, opinions and disagreements are entirely welcome as far as I'm concerned.  But as a specific example, calling someone a "piece of work" (among other things) is a gratuitous insult that serves no constructive purpose and, if those kinds of comments were repeated by the particular poster over time, I would support a ban of that poster from this site.  That post was designed to elicit a response and start a flame war, and I would just as soon never hear again from any person inclined towards such behavior.

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

PGStaff posted:

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

I would have liked to have seen a site like that.

What's frightening and sad is if you look at some of the early comments on this thread after the request for civility, it got a little contentious. Anymore i feel like there are two reasons I come to the site — one, to learn about baseball. Two--occasionally, the fascination with watching a slow motion train wreck. I much prefer the first. Hopefully we can restore a little of what PGstaff is talking about. Is there any way to maybe start a looking break thread of what people love about the site and why they use it?

75% of the threads go off without a hitch.  10% result in the comment "you're wrong".  Another 10% result in the comment "you don't know what you are talking about".  The final 5% result in the comment "you're stupid", or something along those lines.  Unfortunately, the last 15% seems to get the longest play.

For those in the final 5%, if you really need this site to validate your opinions, then I feel sorry for you.  Very seldom is advice provide that is truly harmful and I have read plenty of comments where a solid poster takes the time to outline why a certain piece of advice that has been provided may not in fact be ideal for the circumstances, or even might only apply in limited circumstances of which we have not been made fully aware of.  There is still tons of great information as well as some good plain discussion.  I now have a full understanding of bat rolling and am hoping to maybe see a discussion about how teams divy up their total slot allotment, a topic that I like to discuss solely out of pure enjoyment and curiosity.  We love to bash this current generation of kids as not being tough enough (too many participation trophies), but some of us might benefit from getting a little thicker skin and maybe read comments with a half full glass nearby and not try to mine for subtle digs.

Civility of course should be the rule.

Do we treat all posters with respect? Even if they are new? Does having a child who advanced further in baseball entitle a poster to a higher level of respect/deference -- with the corollary of course that having a child who has not advanced as far in baseball entitles a poster to a lower level of respect/deference? To me the answers should be "yes," "yes," and "no." But I'm not sure that is how things actually operate.

Today is a good example. An 8th grader (or maybe his dad) posts about the necessary velocity to reach D1 . . . to me it is not civil to post a response like "8th grade doesn't matter" -- huh? what? where did the OP say that 8th grade mattered? I'm really not trying to call out Big Taco -- it just happened to occur today -- but that sort of thing happens to new posters ALL OF THE TIME on this board. I just don't see the point in it.

Sometimes I think that if a newbie posts a question on this board, the best thing for the newbie to do is to provide as few details as possible -- any and all information can and will be used against you! Which is kind of sad. 

"10% result in the comment 'you're wrong'. "

I'd add that this category can quickly devolve into the "bottom 15%" if stated in an EXTERNALLY PERCEIVED, very curt, condescending/patronizing manner. I added the caps because the originator of such comments often don't realize that they are doing it and can defensive about getting called-out for doing it in such a manner.

Sure, folks are going to disagree, and if everyone is reminded by this thread to keep it civil and think twice before posting, it will have been a productive discussion.

Batty67 posted:

"10% result in the comment 'you're wrong'. "

I'd add that this category can quickly devolve into the "bottom 15%" if stated in an EXTERNALLY PERCEIVED, very curt, condescending/patronizing manner. I added the caps because the originator of such comments often don't realize that they are doing it and can defensive about getting called-out for doing it in such a manner.

Sure, folks are going to disagree, and if everyone is reminded by this thread to keep it civil and think twice before posting, it will have been a productive discussion.

Amen!

2019Dad posted:

Civility of course should be the rule.

Do we treat all posters with respect? Even if they are new? Does having a child who advanced further in baseball entitle a poster to a higher level of respect/deference -- with the corollary of course that having a child who has not advanced as far in baseball entitles a poster to a lower level of respect/deference? To me the answers should be "yes," "yes," and "no." But I'm not sure that is how things actually operate.

Today is a good example. An 8th grader (or maybe his dad) posts about the necessary velocity to reach D1 . . . to me it is not civil to post a response like "8th grade doesn't matter" -- huh? what? where did the OP say that 8th grade mattered? I'm really not trying to call out Big Taco -- it just happened to occur today -- but that sort of thing happens to new posters ALL OF THE TIME on this board. I just don't see the point in it.

Sometimes I think that if a newbie posts a question on this board, the best thing for the newbie to do is to provide as few details as possible -- any and all information can and will be used against you! Which is kind of sad. 

2019Dad, sometimes its how you receive a message more than how it's delivered.  Big Taco's post is spot on.  He offered great feedback!  If you choose to shut down after reading "8th grade doesn't matter,"  that's on you.  I would hate to lose some of the older posters experience from this site simply because they don't wrap all their golden nuggets into pretty well thought out responses.  Making sure they don't offend a small pool in our forum community.

Reminds me of Coach Robe's interview about "throw down."  He states one of his challenges today as a coach, " How far can you go, to get your team tough before you get reprimanded by soft people and a soft society?"  

"Harder than you are throwing now. 8th grade doesn't matter. How hard will you throw as a senior in High School? Will you work hard to gain velocity? Will you stay healthy? Will you still play? Can you pitch? Do you have a "plus" curveball, changeup, slider? Can you handle game pressure? How do you handle setbacks? Can you make grades? Are you a hard worker? Time will tell. What can you do to set yourself apart from all the other hard throwers? Keep working at it."

There is so much info in these 6 lines!  It's unfortunate some choose to stop reading after the first....  Nothing disrespectful about this post!  

Batty67 posted:

"10% result in the comment 'you're wrong'. "

I'd add that this category can quickly devolve into the "bottom 15%" if stated in an EXTERNALLY PERCEIVED, very curt, condescending/patronizing manner. I added the caps because the originator of such comments often don't realize that they are doing it and can defensive about getting called-out for doing it in such a manner.

Sure, folks are going to disagree, and if everyone is reminded by this thread to keep it civil and think twice before posting, it will have been a productive discussion.

Quoting myself...such hubris. My comment was broad and not targeted to a specific post or person(s). But reflecting Real Green's comment above, EXTERNALLY PERCEIVED cuts both ways of course. If a person "receiving" feedback or simply responding to a comment gets offended easily and escalates the tension, that is not good either.

I agree with you PG, I really miss TRHit. (I can't believe I am typing this after some of the raging battles we had GotWood is a huge loss for completely different reasons. I could resurrect some of my PGxxxx  posts, I think I have the drafts someplace) xxxx = toddlers, oldfarts, etc. With some luck Tim the Enchanter could spice things up, however I know he has been rather busy teaching his flint and tinder classes. 

As long as it does not get too personal, I am a believer that 'through conflict come clarity"  

PGStaff posted:

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

Agreed.  The site has definitely changed over the years.  I started out as a lurker for 1.5 years before posting.  For me, It had a small town vibe, and you kind of knew how some of the posters were going to react to a post.   There was one poster (TRHit...passed away a few years ago) who pretty much spoke his mind, and did not care what anybody thought about him.  The funny thing was TRHit always said what people thought or were afraid to say publically.   He was especially "friendly" with new posters, and he and TPM would have legendary back and forths.   I do miss that.  It was good for a laugh and chuckle, but it never got nasty from my memory.   I will admit I swallowed hard the first few times I posted.  TRHit was one of the reasons, I was a lurker for 1.5 years before finally posting.   Eventually, I got to know TRHIt a lot better as my son pitched against his team down in Jupiter.  

So, it took me a while to realize this place is all about relationships and I wish I had jumped in earlier.  My perception is the website is a little more open to new posters, and there isn't that TRHit waiting to jump all over a new poster.   For the folks that have been around I think the reason they keep coming back is to check up on people they know to see how they are progressing through high school, college, minors or MLB in a few cases.   That is definitely the case for me.

JMO.

PS...As I clicked, I see BOF and I are on the same TRHit page only a minute apart.  Great minds think alike!

Not to take this topic astray, but IMO 8th grade better matter, especially if you are an 8th grader with some talent and you love the game.  Of course, I understand what someone means by saying 8th grade doesn't matter.  Don't see any harm in someone saying it.  I get it when someone says Little League doesn't matter, but for a couple weeks every year I get reminded of just how much it matters to a lot of young boys from all over the world and millions of television viewers.

If an 8th grader is throwing low to mid 80s,  I can see why he might ask the question he asked.  He isn't that far away and he is only an 8th grader.  Maybe he was looking for a little encouragement.

Back to this topic... I actually liked reading the old heated arguments.  Didn't participate in them, but it was like must reading for me and very entertaining.  Seems like everything is too serious around here these days.  Whatever happened to topics like weird food combinations and other things besides baseball?  I remember times LMAO at some of things people posted.   Baseball players, baseball teams, talk about more than just baseball, it's all part of what makes baseball fun.  I thought it was fun when some serious folks took exception to some of the old topics on here. This is a baseball site, they would say.   Truth is... Baseball is about much more than baseball, anyone that has ever played knows that.

That said,  I agree that politics and religion and maybe a couple other things should be off limits.  Especially politics,  those discussions can get downright ugly.

When PG made his comment, I was thinking about TrHit and of course there are many others.  I knew TR and spoke to him on the phone a few times.  He was rough around the edges and unvarnished to put it mildly.  I liked the fact he did not apologize for who he was but I also felt he was a two-edged sword - he mucked up a lot of really fine threads that did not need mucked up. 

We'll probably always have people who like to stir the pot and I am not sure we can legislate civility.  When it goes overboard, further administrative actions may be necessary as MidloDad suggests.  I miss some of the old-time posters who were just genuinely nice people and who also had a nice sense of humor.  I admire people who seem to like to contribute here rather than bragging up their own.   

I usually don't disagree with PG all that much but sometimes, boring is better than conflict.

fenwaysouth posted:

PGStaff posted:

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

Agreed.  The site has definitely changed over the years.  I started out as a lurker for 1.5 years before posting.  For me, It had a small town vibe, and you kind of knew how some of the posters were going to react to a post.   There was one poster (TRHit...passed away a few years ago) who pretty much spoke his mind, and did not care what anybody thought about him.  The funny thing was TRHit always said what people thought or were afraid to say publically.   He was especially "friendly" with new posters, and he and TPM would have legendary back and forths.   I do miss that.  It was good for a laugh and chuckle, but it never got nasty from my memory.   I will admit I swallowed hard the first few times I posted.  TRHit was one of the reasons, I was a lurker for 1.5 years before finally posting.   Eventually, I got to know TRHIt a lot better as my son pitched against his team down in Jupiter.  

So, it took me a while to realize this place is all about relationships and I wish I had jumped in earlier.  My perception is the website is a little more open to new posters, and there isn't that TRHit waiting to jump all over a new poster.   For the folks that have been around I think the reason they keep coming back is to check up on people they know to see how they are progressing through high school, college, minors or MLB in a few cases.   That is definitely the case for me.

JMO.

PS...As I clicked, I see BOF and I are on the same TRHit page only a minute apart.  Great minds think alike!

Not like I was nominated, or that I speak for the group, HOWEVER, here I go.

I resurrected the 2020 give or take a year thread yesterday...I am going to mess up explaining this, please know I am not trying to start a fight, I am trying to explain...in a nutshell new posters DO get pounced on, and lurkers are afraid to say anything. There are over 75 people in the 2020 PM.  They all contacted me one by one to join the PM, there are MANY posts that often start with "I was afraid to ask this on the big board but......"  AFRAID is the key word most often associated with the big board. The question I posted about signing the NLI, that was from a 2020 member who doesn't post to the big board, and there have been many others.

I have read TRHit, I have read what this board use to be and PG is right, it isn't what it once was.  But it isn't because your kids have grown up. The bonds that you shared while your kids were in high school/college/MiLB/MLB/Professional Coach...those are unbreakable and awesome to have.  But that is why this board is now different, a person who has been on this board for 10+ years can't relate to my struggles with my 2020. Freshman year was a blip on the radar that happened 10+ years ago, but I'm living it now, and it's important to me. Phrases like "___________doesn't matter in the long run" are often thrown around, and while it doesn't matter to you it does matter to me and to the other 75+ people on the 2020 thread.

It has been said that the 2020 PM is a bad thing, that it causes a divide, but I say it's the only "safe" place we have to talk without being pounced on or told that what we are concerned about doesn't matter. I know that the parents who post on here even though their children are 25+ now, are trying to teach, they are trying to pass on their knowledge, to keep us from making their mistakes.  However,  when a person is trying to educate another person isn't it best to do that in a way that the other person will be open to and understand?  Otherwise, what's the point?  I absolutely do NOT want a single older poster to leave.  I think the experience they bring is invaluable and I will often bring out questions that I know they have more experience with. I do value their experience. I just wish they would share that experience in a more user friendly way.  

I should add, the new site format has taken out some of the fun of the site imho.  We had a lot of threads like the state forums that hardly get any action or visibility anymore.  Most of the action is in either the General or the Recruiting forum these days.  We lost Woody when the decision was made to make the Unusual forum less visible because that had become a forum for heated political discussions.  We used to have lots of trouble makers in the Illinois forum - many of whom were vicious people.  It took years to get that forum to where people where not at each other's throats and throwing verbal grenades all the time.  I think most of those people left the site after their kids were done with the game.

The Tebow thread is probably the best example of how things can go astray around here.  When Tebow is in the discussion, it often invokes politics and religion at the same time.  There does not seem to be middle-ground when his name is up for discussion.

PGStaff posted:

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

care to discuss hitting mechanics....

I have to agree with CACO to some extent on some new posters getting treated, at times, like they should have already read all the important threads that have come before and only asked the important questions.  It seems that on this site, there is such a thing as a stupid question.  I will say when a dad of a 10 yo comes on here as says he is getting his son's velo this weekend and wants to know what it takes for Power 5, then some  smack in the face might be appropriate to get him off the topic and onto better topics (like how to keep baseball fun for 10 yo's).  But for the newbie that happens to stumble upon this site at the beginning of their journey, they will oftentimes ask the "dumb" question.

I have avoided posting replies in favor of PM's on occasion so as to "warn" the OP about some of the forthcoming answers and maybe redirect them to some of the relevant material on the board.  When I joined I was provided some guidance on how to take some posts with a grain of salt.  In hindsight, I can see where some of the opinions were actually well intended (think big picture), but the immediate optics were such that I simply took it as abuse.  Thankfully the good far outweighed the bad.  As always, thanks to everyone for the valuable information.

 Wanted to add that I think the ice/no-ice and the jogging/sprinting discussions have been very constructive and have helped outline some of the actual research that has been conducted in these areas.  Lots of "disagreement" but of the healthy variety.  I also love to read PG regularly distance himself from the Lakepoint parking fee.

CACO - Well said.

CACO3GIRL,

I guess I don't understand what a poster can be afraid of?  So it's hard for me to see it from their prospective.  This is a public forum.  The PM is a private message.  I participate in hunting and fishing forums as well and the dynamics are all the same regarding how comfortable some users are publicly posting information.  As well individuals different communication styles.   

Regarding the size of the PM and the way it has grown.  Using it to support that there is some sort of problem on the main forum, I believe is a bit of misrepresentation.  Stating that all the posters have come to you requesting access simply isn't true.  I for one was asked if I was interested in joining and know many others were invited to join as well.  

There is a lot of valuable information in the PM.  It's unfortunate that some feel the need not to involve the main board.  It's also a shame that no one can access the information through a search engine or in the future when the next generation shows up looking for advice.  I almost feel like it could cause a speed bump in the history of this awesome resource.  

What's going to happen as our 8th-10th graders really start to get into the process of recruiting? With a majority of the information shared privately.  Will we just keep inviting folks into the PM through the years?  Or is the main board just going to lose all that information?    

Guess I don't look at people as old or new.  Sometimes the new know more than the old.  Having kids that might have been successful doesn't make anyone more important.  I think most people try to be diplomatic and polite.  But I read things that I know are wrong.  I see new posters that have 10 posts, all about some great event and nothing else.  I always want to respond asking just how they are really involved, but I never do.  I miss the people that used to jump on the absolute wrong advice that someone might post.  Mainly because that is what I wanted to do, but didn't.

TRHit RIP was a guy that you might love one minute and hate the next.  He didn't care about things like correct spelling.  He could be funny and he could be mean.  To me, he was mostly entertaining.  His arguments with TPM were hilarious to everyone except them.  He would say the nastiest things and I would LMAO, then she would respond and I would LMAO again.  I know, maybe I'm weird.

I forget his name but BBScout and him would debate hitting technique endlessly.  He would drive everyone crazy and get kicked off the site.  Then within a day or so he was back with a new account only to get kicked off again.  This went on for quite awhile, getting kicked off and then coming back with a new name.  I actually enjoyed following that and actually getting involved in the discussion at times.  He was a character, but somewhere on this site is some great information about hitting. Not just from him, but many others that participated.

When Bob first started this site it was mostly about securing scholarships, exposure, following a path.  But it was also a lot of fun reading about funny things that happen around the country.  That continued with Julie for a long time, but now days I very seldom see a post that makes me laugh. 

old_school posted:

PGStaff posted:

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

care to discuss hitting mechanics....

Rotational or Linear? 

As a parent of a 2021 and a relative newcomer to the site I have never experienced anything other than positive interactions here and have found this place to be a wealth of knowledge & valuable information.  I am so very appreciative of this place.  Happy to abide by common sense rules of civility.

I've always been very old school so I cherish the perspective of the oldtimers who have had kids already go through the path.  The Baseball landscape changes but watch it'll change again 5 years from now.  Ultimately there are certain truths that apply to any decade and I welcome not only the feedback from oldtimers but also the constructive criticism from them too.  

PGStaff posted:

now days I very seldom see a post that makes me laugh. 

In case you missed this recent one:

http://community.hsbaseballweb...tching-me-work-today

Golfman25 posted:

old_school posted:

care to discuss hitting mechanics....

Rotational or Linear? 

Can we finally agree that Babe Ruth/Willie Mays/Mike Trout did/do both?

old_school posted:

PGStaff posted:

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

care to discuss hitting mechanics....

Old_school, you just lobbed this site's ultimate verbal hand grenade... "Let's talk hitting mechanics."  You wily little rascal.  :-)

PGStaff posted:

Not to take this topic astray, but IMO 8th grade better matter, especially if you are an 8th grader with some talent and you love the game.  Of course, I understand what someone means by saying 8th grade doesn't matter.  Don't see any harm in someone saying it.  I get it when someone says Little League doesn't matter, but for a couple weeks every year I get reminded of just how much it matters to a lot of young boys from all over the world and millions of television viewers.

If an 8th grader is throwing low to mid 80s,  I can see why he might ask the question he asked.  He isn't that far away and he is only an 8th grader.  Maybe he was looking for a little encouragement.

 

Agreed, it isn't what was said but how it was phrased.  It definitely matters to the kid asking for advice.  It is impressive to be hitting low to mid 80's as an 8th grader and though not guaranteed, the likely trajectory is positive for a kid like that coming here to ask for advice.  There aren't many that would take the initiative to seek out information.

......... But that is why this board is now different, a person who has been on this board for 10+ years can't relate to my struggles with my 2020. Freshman year was a blip on the radar that happened 10+ years ago, but I'm living it now, and it's important to me. Phrases like "___________doesn't matter in the long run" are often thrown around, and while it doesn't matter to you it does matter to me and to the other 75+ people on the 2020 thread.

CACO3GIRL,

I'm going to disagree with you on one point.   Many of us can absolutely relate to your struggles.  I know I can.  I've been here almost 10 years and I can very vividly remember (and feel) every struggle, and feeling of angst  my kids went through from travel ball, Legion, high school, and college baseball.  Travel baseball and college recruiting are a very strenuous time for a family and it can even strain a strong marriage.  Those parental memories and feelings live on, trust me on that.  Everything matters, and if somebody is telling you it doesn't matter then they are full of shit.  I can tell you exactly where I was and how many butterflies were in my stomach when my kids were trying out for JV high school baseball in 8th grade or were playing their first travel baseball game.  Most of the folks that have been around remember that stuff in detail, and it is important when we talk to people that are going through it for the first time.  Those experiences are so important as a reference point.

Where I think the older posters can help newer posters is with process and strategies.... keeping their unsure feelings in check.  Those that have been around the block a few times can be an invaluable resource.....a sherpa who knows the terrain. Please don't sell those folks short.  On this website, I've had the benefit of being both the one being sherpa-ed and the sherpa.     

JMO.

Whatever happened to when men were men and knew how to argue?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0wvGiAH9g

Golfman25 posted:

old_school posted:

PGStaff posted:

IMO, this site has forgotten its roots to an extent.  It has grown somewhat boring compared to several years ago.  It is still a great site, lots of good people, and all that, but I miss several of those people that added some excitement in years past.  I miss the humor and the joking around.

care to discuss hitting mechanics....

Rotational or Linear? 

LOL some of both! Everyone is correct!!!

3and2Fastball posted:

Golfman25 posted:

old_school posted:

care to discuss hitting mechanics....

Rotational or Linear? 

Can we finally agree that Babe Ruth/Willie Mays/Mike Trout did/do both?

Jesus 3&2 what fun would that be...and of course you are getting fastball at 3&2...that is why I have trust issues!!