Clemens fighting to save his butt ... kissers

Talk about racist! And stupid.

i think it's pretty obvious that Clemens is guilty as sin. But with his Johnny Cochran team, they will poke little blow-holes in McNamee (which a dream-team of lawyers could do to anyone). It's a pretty disgusting thing to watch but so goes American Sports at its worst. I'll be glad when this thing blows over and we can stop seeing Roger Clemens' name plastered everywhere. He could have saved his big butt by just being honest with everyone in the beginning. Now one of my baseball heros is forever marred by this and I can NEVER look at his career stats the same way again. NEVER. Andy Pettite on the other hand I have sympathy for because he did it just twice and told the truth and after all, Roger is the one who turned him on to them and what bigger name can you trust than the Rocket telling you that this is a wonder drug. BUT I STILL hold Pettite accountable, don't get me wrong....
I will be sad for you Mr. Clemens at the end of the day on Wednesday when Pettite blows your paper-thin cover. I will be sad for his kids, the worst of which is Coby who is steadfastly standing by his father and must endure countless people talking about his Dad in a bad way (although he said many, many people are sticking up for his Dad). It's a true shame but "another one bites the dust" so to say and there will be a day when this Steroid/HGH thing will die and we can move on. Good riddens to this shameful sports era of performance-enhancing drug use!!!

quote:

Originally posted by sluggo:
Talk about racist! And stupid.

Although this article may sound that way to you, this guy has taken an unbelievable amount of heat from some of the African-American community for his rather conservative views; especially regarding personal responsibility. Reread it, knowing that. He's probably telling it like it is.

Yes, I am definately in the minority here BUT...what if he is innocent. What if some scum bag (McNamee) threw his name in to save his own hide, knowing that a big fish like Roger would carry alkot of weight and he could support his association, because he was his trainer. What if we have all been ready to jump on the guilty band wagon when Clemens is indeed innocent. Show me the money. When you show me the proof that he is dirty then I will believe it. Nieve? Probably, but I still hold my standards to inncent until proven guilty.

while the innocent till proven guilty is our standard. sadly it doesn't always ring true. when you read the paper about someone in your town arrested for breaking the law. what is the first thing you think of? if it's, their all innocent your a special person. i'm not saying it's right .but most think their guilty.we don't think you can be arrested or charged with something if you didn't do it.

as i've said many times ,the way he used pain killers are more damaging to me.and that came out of his own mouth.they even had a super bowl commercial about their abuse. roger should have done a public service spot there.

what if pigs could fly too.
Look at this way if Clemens was trully clean he would be taking drug tests left and right and showing the results.

One more thing Clemens in 2001 was clocked at the 100 mph on the stalker gun. The best he ever clocked in the 1983-89 season was 97 mph on the Corded jugs gun, ( would be 99mph) on stalker gun. Sorry but none gets faster pitching 18 years in MLB with out chemical help.

Frank

Talk to Nolan Ryan about velocity at that age

As for the numbers you cite, 1 MPH difference is worth squat as evidence of anything---


By the way that other great personality John Rocker is back in the picture with todays info he has issued

This is really some circus

I don't think the article was racist because we was telling the truth on everything. Most fans love trashing Barry Bonds because he is a jerk but Clemens was a nice guy so we would forgive him fairly quickly if he admited to it.

I'll say it again - either Clemens is truly innocent because he is going to great lengths to defend his name

OR

He is the biggest moron on earth for fighting this when he is guilty.

He could still pull a Petitte right now Monday Feb. 11 2008 and admit he did it and express regret and remorse. In a few years we would forgive him and he would get into the hall.

I still say this is all going nowhere----just make it what is is--and ERA---give the players a grace period to get clean and then make the rules tough and test regularly

The sad part is that not all the "sinners" are being named or even known---we are just spending money after bad money---they can have rooms in the HOF for the eras noted----

According to Rusty Hardin, the feds have indicated that they will soon charge him with perjury.

"Kirk Radomski, Andy Pettitte, and Chuck Knoblauch will not be testifying at the February 13 hearing," the statement reads. "Charlie Scheeler of Senator Mitchell's staff will be testifying. Mr. Knoblauch and Mr. Pettitte answered all the Committee's questions and their testimony at the hearing is not needed."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3241579

I still think the feds set a trap for Clemens-- and now he has walked right into it.

I think the feds put McNamee up to the infamous, taped phone call.

And I think the feds got Clemens to come to testify, so they could get him under oath. The feds had the physical evidence from McNamee in hand, but Clemens did not know that. So he goes in there, he lies thinking he can make it a pure swearing match, and they spring the trap. Lie to the media, no big deal. Lie to Congress under oath, it's a felony.

Now Clemens' team has to discredit the physical evidence, which of course they have already recognized and started on. Now he's not just looking at a tarnished image. Perjury means time in the federal penitentiary, in a system where parole was abolished long ago.

It looks like the feds intend to press these guys to the mat, and either get plea deals or high profile trials. Only if both Bonds and Clemens win acquittals will this stop.

Why not just wait and see what happens? If they find out he is guilty then he will pay dearly. Even if Roger Clemens and Debbie Clemens are innocent, there are those who will never believe that.

In the meantime, people have no problem believing what McNamee has claimed.

I know it don't look good. A while back everyone was saying if Clemens is innocent he should come out and fight. Now that he has, as much as anyone possibly could, what has been accomplished? People still think he is guilty.

Maybe he is guilty... But I'm waiting until this is over. I have a problem with the credibilty of McNamee. If when questioned, Pettitte and Knoblach said Clemens did it, I'll think he did. They wouldn't have any reason to lie and wouldn't risk perjury charges. IMO

PG,

I just dont understand why Clemens would have a relationship with a guy like McNamee for so long.

It just doesnt make any sense to me.

This is what I don't understand, if this guy was such a piece of garbage, why did he continue to hang around him for so long. He's so concerned now about what this is doing to his family, why did he bring this man into his home if this is true?

Why didn't he show up to see Mitchell when he knew this "piece of garbage" was talking. Didn't he have a chance at the time to face accusations?

Why did Clemens refuse to work with Yankee trainers and continue to work with McNamee? Because they shared a secret?

I just don't get it, it makes no sense to me.

TPM,

What is even more bizarre as a question - and something we all just found out - is why would Roger allow this type of a guy to deal with his wife as well.

Regardless of what McNamee was shooting into Mrs. Clemens - it just seems really odd to me that a guy like Clemens would allow this to happen without a very compelling reason.

Is it possible that McNamee's reason for implicating Clemens was because the feds told him that was what they wanted to hear, because they needed a "Big Name" to justify wasting $44 mil?

Is it possible that McNamee kept beer cans and needles from lidocaine and B-12 shots to sell on Ebay as memorabilia, and then found a different use for them?

Is it possible that McNamee told Mitchell he did not have physical evidence against Clemens because he didn't?

Is it possible that Andy took 2 injections and did not tell Roger because he was embarrassed?

Is it possible that McNamee lied about Roger (and his family) being at Canseco's party and talking about steroids?

Is it possible that McNamee secretly resents Roger's fame and fortune and got great pleasure in causing him pain by lying about him?

Is it possible that Congress is not going to have Pettitte, Knoblauch or Radomski testify tomorrow because their testimony would hurt Mitchell's "star" witness, McNamee, and help their target, Clemens?

I'm sticking with the Rocket.

Sluggo,

I think that is the way to go. Innocent until proven guilty. And I dont think they will ever get Roger.

But I still think that it is very odd that a guy like Clemens would have such a long and close personal relationship with a guy like McNamee.

Just seems really odd to me.

Just listening to ESPN, in their opinion, doesn't sound too good for the rocket.

People are suffering and dying and we're spending millions to prove that a baseball player lied? I wish they could use some of that money to make suffering people in the hospital more comfortable.

I find this about as hypocritical a statement as I ever heard.

quote:

Congress does not like to be lied to

A lawyer on the Mike-n-Mike show just make a comment that I feel sums up these whole congressional issue. What a bunch of BULL

John Rocker is now throwing in his 2 cents as a result we now have a "sound mind" involved.

I am most disappointed with the Players Association and their wimpy representation and support of Clemens. My only thought here is that by saying nothing they are protecting 95% of their organization who over the coarse their careers I'll bet they stepped outside the box of acceptable drugs.

Aren't there more important issues and more justifiable places to throw our congressional dollar?

MLB knew they had a major problem when back in 2003 105 MLB players tested positive for steriods a test everyone knew was coming. Alot more would have tested postive for HGH if they tested for it.

If MLB had testing and punishment like they do at the minor league level, they would not have the problem they do.

They did not need the Mitchell report, they knew they had a problem and did nuttin. Games of Shadows and Juiced got MLB to act. Not good PR when the Press causes you to act.

Olympic Style testing and punishment will quickly fix the problem.

quote:

The affidavit of Yankees pitcher Andy Pettitte helps to support the account of Brian McNamee, Roger Clemens' former trainer, that he gave Clemens injections of banned drugs, according to a ranking member of the congressional committee investigating the use of illegal drugs in baseball.

Newsday

I find all of this really sad and waste of taxpayer money. Let's take the Mitchell report and move forward into a new era. As they are discussing on ESPN, it's now about accountability. I always told my kids when they got in trouble, you messed up, just tell me the truth, I may still be a bit po'd at you, but you took personal responsibility for your actions and willing to take the consequences. The more you lie, the angrier I become. This should be the lesson here, IMO. A lesson for our future players, not one person.

I can't imagine having to testify against my close friend and mentor supporting a guy that everyone is doubting (McNamee). Doesn't look like AP did that, he could have lied to protect his friend, but obviously he realized he made a mistake, and although what he did was wrong he came out in public and admitted it. Obviously he had no choice but to tell teh truth, and I think it's time another player in this drama do the same. JMO.

as reported by Brian Costello and the NY Post

quote:

Sparing him a trip to Capitol Hill appears to be a sign committee members believe Pettitte cooperated fully with their investigation, and that they do not need any more testimony from him. A source also said Pettitte was not a great witness in that his answers sometimes contradicted each other, and there was some fear of putting him in front of the committee with a national television audience watching.

quote:

Obviously he had no choice but to tell teh truth, and I think it's time another player in this drama do the same. JMO.

Nobody is perfect. If he isn't telling the truth, he could start anytime and and the scales would start swinging back in his direction. I think he would receive a more positive reaction, certainly than what he is getting now, and provide a way forward beyond the problem, instead of denying the problem.

If he is telling the truth, then he has been wronged immeasurably.

Why would he make a good witness? Trying to find the right words to say in this situation knowing the damage you can cause must have been very unpleasant. Why would he LIE against his idol and close friend. I don't get that.

I go with Dad04, if he has not been truthful (Clemens) it's time to do so, you will be forgiven. Iforgive you. If it's not true, then you have every right to go after those that have lied against you.

If Roger admitted to HGH and everything else he's done along with admitting that his wife did too, it's kind of too late because he stood before us on national TV more than once and denied everything. For ME however, I would forgive him.... A ton of other people will not. I have heard that Andy Pettite has told the truth from sources (similar to the other most recent posts on this thread) and that Clemens was implicated more than a dozen times in statements by Pettite. I will have to wait to see this for myself. I believe that Pettite may try to protect Roger but people are telling me that he did do the right thing by telling the truth about Roger Clemens and his denials. Does anyone know if Roger and Andy have spoken?

Does anyone know if Andy and Roger were as close as we have been told?
We only know what is in the media and as for ESPN they are becoming the Enquirer of sports

Like it or not, "the media" is how 99.999999999999% of us know 99.99999999999% of the things that happen in the world. If a close friendship has been reported for numerous years, can't we trust that it's true? I only think I know the Giants won the Super Bowl because of the media. I hope it's true.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Does anyone know if Andy and Roger were as close as we have been told?
We only know what is in the media and as for ESPN they are becoming the Enquirer of sports

I apologize for my reply but I don't think ESPN can be placed in the same category as The Enquirer.

JMO.

TPM

You are truly funny and very hilarious but I think naive regarding ESPN

I apologize for my opinion.

You are even funnier now----

I'll take that as compliment.

IMO, if ANYONE is listening to ESPN over this entire debacle and trying to decide by all the jargon and innuendo's about the presumption of guilt for Roger, then they have WAY too much time on their hands and are quite naive.

We can banter this around all day until the cows come home but Sluggo and PG were right in that Roger IS innocent until proven guilty. Do I want him to come out of this not guilty? Heck yes I do. He has always been one of my very favorites. Do I have opinions about whether or not what he and even McNamee are saying is true/false? Every day.

The panacea to all this is when ultimately the Judge slams down his gavel and hollers "Guilty" or "Not Guilty". No more, no less.

So all of you who are ready to lock Roger away. Put aside the key for now and let's all see how this plays out. We all will know soon enough.

well there was once an all pro HOF football player that a jury and the legal system found innocent of two murders, but I still think he did it.

Regardless of what ESPN says, regardless of the opinions of others, I'm pretty happy with drawing my own conclusions from the information out there.

With bonds and now clemens i see in clemens' circumstance:

A guy who's statistics are completely consistent with the claims he juiced and the time line related to his stats shows the same, along with the presence of those involved at Toronto who apparently proved his "meds" and down the line from there

A guy who was about done in Boston and comes roaring back at an advanced age where the numbers he's posted (like bonds) has never been done before in human history by a person of their age

A guy who's size has become exceedingly exaggerated (like bonds) at an advanced age and in a short time span

A guy who has signed late several seasons and therefore not available for the spring drug testing that takes place

A guy with sometimes odd if not overly agressive behavior patterns consistent with steroid use(just ask Mike Piazza about clemens' behavior toward him)

A guy who claims his injections were lidocaine which is simply a local anesthetic (so i guess he needed to freeze his butt). just like bonds and his flaxseed oil, this is utter nonsense

And now Andy Petite, who's been there through it all has provided testimony that is sufficient enough that he's not "needed" to appear before Congress.

Like bonds clemens is arrogant and believes superior to his accusers and will just stick with his story and believes his view will be accepted against the mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Like that football player found innocent, well the court's don't always get it right now do they

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I apologize for my opinion.

Now that was funny!!

Let's clear up a misconception about the "innocent until proven guilty" idea that has been repeated over and over again.

Is a person that actually committed an illegal act but was not found guilty in a court of law, really innocent?

Does it make sense to say that someone is INNOCENT of taking drugs if you actually have no clue if he did or not? What is your basis?

Under our court system we are to ASSUME that a person is innocent until evidence proves otherwise. However, lack of evidence does not-DOES NOT-mean the person did not commit the crime.

There is not one person reading this forum that hasn't at one time or another made assumptions about innocence or guilt without proof from the courts. We are allowed to speculate based on our own experiences and thought processes.

One last question. If someone makes a statement publicly accusing any of "you" of a crime that you are 100% innocent of, what would your reaction be? This? "I just want someone to tell the truth." McNamee has just ruined Clemen's life with a blatant lie and he tells McNamee that he'll get with his people and then get back to him. Look, I saw Roberto Alomar spit in an umpire's face for a heckuvalot less than that. I don't know about you all but the first chance I get(which would have been 1 minute after I heard the accusation) I would have been on the phone blasting the guy and calling him every name I could think of and then telling him that if he didn't go back to Mitchell and tell the truth I would make it my life's effort to get him. Remember-he just told a complete lie about me, why would I even consider being civil to him-AS HE WAS IN THE TAPED CONVERSATION?

I think some of us need a dose of reality.