I just told you I have not enough proof either way to make a decision ---do you?
Is it possible that Roger used drugs? Yes. What I have learned from this whole process is that anyone can say anything and it immediately hits the airwaves, internet, etc. without any verification whatsoever. Freedom of speech should come with responsibility and there is none, only a race to spew the latest venom to a bunch of sheepies.
You do have to question the agenda of everyone involved, the obvious players, but also the websites that count hits, the newspapers that count circulation, and the talk shows that look at ratings.
You do have to question the agenda of everyone involved, the obvious players, but also the websites that count hits, the newspapers that count circulation, and the talk shows that look at ratings.
We are all claiming Andy Pettite is a saint because he came forward and admitted he took HGH once....or maybe twice.
Who's to say he isn't lying either about the number of times he took HGH or even steroids?
It's not like we are choosing to listen to the different stories of saints and angels versus the devils and demons. Everyone involved has SOMETHING to lose and are willing to lie and cheat and pay lawyers tons of money to try and get out of it.
There is not enough physical evidence to convice ANYONE and all the witnesses would be crucified on the witness stand by lawyers.
No one is going to jail here and we just need to move on. 2008 is going to start up in less than 45 days.
Who's to say he isn't lying either about the number of times he took HGH or even steroids?
It's not like we are choosing to listen to the different stories of saints and angels versus the devils and demons. Everyone involved has SOMETHING to lose and are willing to lie and cheat and pay lawyers tons of money to try and get out of it.
There is not enough physical evidence to convice ANYONE and all the witnesses would be crucified on the witness stand by lawyers.
No one is going to jail here and we just need to move on. 2008 is going to start up in less than 45 days.
I really like Petite. One of my favorite pitchers EVER. But I have to say, when one of the Dem stuffed shirts was posturing for the cameras he made reference to the honesty and integrity of Petite; the implication being that if such an upstanding fellow made the stATEMENT IT HAD TO BE TRUE. Bull ****! At this point the one thing about Petit that we now know ,sadly, is that he is an admitted cheater. Thats not integrity. Thats not honest. Im not taking that to the bank.
Im afraid they are all the same tbh. They stink. Every person in that hearing room has ulterior motives and questionable morals in my opinion
Im afraid they are all the same tbh. They stink. Every person in that hearing room has ulterior motives and questionable morals in my opinion
The one thing that was absolutely proven in yesterdays hearing was that the admirable Andy Pettitte, the model for honesty, lied to the public after the Mitchell Report was released.
Here are a couple artcles quoting Pettitte after the Mitchell Report was released.
NEW YORK -- Andy Pettitte used human growth hormone to recover from an elbow injury in 2002, the New York Yankees pitcher admitted two days after he was cited in the Mitchell report.
Pettitte said he tried HGH on two occasions, stressing he did it to heal faster and not enhance his performance. He emphasized he never used steroids.
"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said Saturday in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days."
Pettitte asked the trainer he shared with Roger Clemens, Brian McNamee, to help him with HGH while on the disabled list early in the season, the report said. McNamee recalled injecting Pettitte two to four times, Mitchell said.
I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible. For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone ... This is it -- two days out of my life; two days out of my entire career, when I was injured and on the disabled list. I wasn't looking for an edge. I was looking to heal.
-- Andy Pettitte
"In 2002 I was injured. I had heard that human growth hormone could promote faster healing for my elbow," Pettitte said in the statement released to The Associated Press by agent Randy Hendricks.
"I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible. For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped.
"This is it -- two days out of my life; two days out of my entire career, when I was injured and on the disabled list," he said. "I wasn't looking for an edge. I was looking to heal."
"I have the utmost respect for baseball and have always tried to live my life in a way that would be honorable," he said. "If I have let down people that care about me, I am sorry, but I hope that you will listen to me carefully and understand that two days of perhaps bad judgment should not ruin a lifetime of hard work and dedication.
"I have tried to do things the right way my entire life, and, again, ask that you put those two days in the proper context. People that know me will know that what I say is true," he said.
Here's more from another article
Yankees pitcher Andy Pettitte said in a statement Saturday that he tried H.G.H. to recover from an elbow injury in 2002.
“If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize,” Pettitte said in a statement, his first public comments since the report was released Thursday.
According to the report, Brian McNamee, Pettitte’s former trainer, told Mitchell that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone on “two to four occasions” in 2002 while Pettitte was recovering from an elbow injury.
In a statement released by his agent, Randy Hendricks, Pettitte said he tried the human growth hormone for “two days” in 2002 because he believed it would speed his recovery.
“I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible,” Pettitte said. “For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped.”
“Everything else written or said about me knowingly using illegal drugs is nonsense, wrong and hurtful,” he said. “I have the utmost respect for baseball and have always tried to live my life in a way that would be honorable. I wasn’t looking for an edge; I was looking to heal.”
Pettitte had previously denied using performance-enhancing drugs. Last year, The Los Angeles Times reported that Pettitte was among the players the former Yankee Jason Grimsley said used performance-enhancing drugs in a federal affidavit.
“I haven’t done anything,” Pettitte said on Oct. 1, 2006. “I guess reports are saying I’ve used performance-enhancing drugs. I’ve never used any drugs to enhance my performance in baseball before. I don’t know what else to say except to say it’s embarrassing my name would be out there.”
Then this from yesterday….
By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer Wed Feb 13, 7:32 PM ET
WASHINGTON - Andy Pettitte felt caught in the middle between his friends Roger Clemens and Brian McNamee. In the end, Pettitte's conscience told him which side to choose.
Pettitte also admitted his own use of HGH was not limited to 2002, as he previously said, but that he also took injections in 2004 after obtaining the substance from his ailing father.
"I have to tell you all the truth," Pettitte said in his deposition last week, which was released after Wednesday's congressional hearing. "I have to live with myself. And one day I have to give an account to God and not to nobody else of what I've done in my life. And that's why I've said and shared the stuff with y'all that I've shared with y'all today that I wouldn't like to share with y'all."On Dec. 15, two days after the Mitchell Report was released, Pettitte said he used HGH for two days in 2002 while with the New York Yankees. Last week, he went further, in a deposition for congressional investigators and an affidavit submitted in exchange for being excused from Wednesday's hearing."In 2004, when I tore the flexor tendon in my pitching arm, I again used HGH two times in one day out of frustration and in a futile attempt to recover. Unfortunately, I needed surgery on the arm later in the year. I regret these lapses in judgment," Pettitte said in his affidavit.
Waxman commended Pettitte for making his admissions.
"Mr. Pettitte's consistency makes him a role model on and off the field," Waxman said.
CONSISTENCY???? maybe ON the field.
Waxman is the same guy who apologized to Brian McNamee to end yesterday's hearings.
I've always liked Andy Pettitte, but as of this point, the only real proven liar, so far, is him... by his own admission! I don't understand all the high praise he is receiving.
Here are a couple artcles quoting Pettitte after the Mitchell Report was released.
NEW YORK -- Andy Pettitte used human growth hormone to recover from an elbow injury in 2002, the New York Yankees pitcher admitted two days after he was cited in the Mitchell report.
Pettitte said he tried HGH on two occasions, stressing he did it to heal faster and not enhance his performance. He emphasized he never used steroids.
"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said Saturday in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days."
Pettitte asked the trainer he shared with Roger Clemens, Brian McNamee, to help him with HGH while on the disabled list early in the season, the report said. McNamee recalled injecting Pettitte two to four times, Mitchell said.
I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible. For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone ... This is it -- two days out of my life; two days out of my entire career, when I was injured and on the disabled list. I wasn't looking for an edge. I was looking to heal.
-- Andy Pettitte
"In 2002 I was injured. I had heard that human growth hormone could promote faster healing for my elbow," Pettitte said in the statement released to The Associated Press by agent Randy Hendricks.
"I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible. For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped.
"This is it -- two days out of my life; two days out of my entire career, when I was injured and on the disabled list," he said. "I wasn't looking for an edge. I was looking to heal."
"I have the utmost respect for baseball and have always tried to live my life in a way that would be honorable," he said. "If I have let down people that care about me, I am sorry, but I hope that you will listen to me carefully and understand that two days of perhaps bad judgment should not ruin a lifetime of hard work and dedication.
"I have tried to do things the right way my entire life, and, again, ask that you put those two days in the proper context. People that know me will know that what I say is true," he said.
Here's more from another article
Yankees pitcher Andy Pettitte said in a statement Saturday that he tried H.G.H. to recover from an elbow injury in 2002.
“If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize,” Pettitte said in a statement, his first public comments since the report was released Thursday.
According to the report, Brian McNamee, Pettitte’s former trainer, told Mitchell that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone on “two to four occasions” in 2002 while Pettitte was recovering from an elbow injury.
In a statement released by his agent, Randy Hendricks, Pettitte said he tried the human growth hormone for “two days” in 2002 because he believed it would speed his recovery.
“I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible,” Pettitte said. “For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped.”
“Everything else written or said about me knowingly using illegal drugs is nonsense, wrong and hurtful,” he said. “I have the utmost respect for baseball and have always tried to live my life in a way that would be honorable. I wasn’t looking for an edge; I was looking to heal.”
Pettitte had previously denied using performance-enhancing drugs. Last year, The Los Angeles Times reported that Pettitte was among the players the former Yankee Jason Grimsley said used performance-enhancing drugs in a federal affidavit.
“I haven’t done anything,” Pettitte said on Oct. 1, 2006. “I guess reports are saying I’ve used performance-enhancing drugs. I’ve never used any drugs to enhance my performance in baseball before. I don’t know what else to say except to say it’s embarrassing my name would be out there.”
Then this from yesterday….
By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer Wed Feb 13, 7:32 PM ET
WASHINGTON - Andy Pettitte felt caught in the middle between his friends Roger Clemens and Brian McNamee. In the end, Pettitte's conscience told him which side to choose.
Pettitte also admitted his own use of HGH was not limited to 2002, as he previously said, but that he also took injections in 2004 after obtaining the substance from his ailing father.
"I have to tell you all the truth," Pettitte said in his deposition last week, which was released after Wednesday's congressional hearing. "I have to live with myself. And one day I have to give an account to God and not to nobody else of what I've done in my life. And that's why I've said and shared the stuff with y'all that I've shared with y'all today that I wouldn't like to share with y'all."On Dec. 15, two days after the Mitchell Report was released, Pettitte said he used HGH for two days in 2002 while with the New York Yankees. Last week, he went further, in a deposition for congressional investigators and an affidavit submitted in exchange for being excused from Wednesday's hearing."In 2004, when I tore the flexor tendon in my pitching arm, I again used HGH two times in one day out of frustration and in a futile attempt to recover. Unfortunately, I needed surgery on the arm later in the year. I regret these lapses in judgment," Pettitte said in his affidavit.
Waxman commended Pettitte for making his admissions.
"Mr. Pettitte's consistency makes him a role model on and off the field," Waxman said.
CONSISTENCY???? maybe ON the field.
Waxman is the same guy who apologized to Brian McNamee to end yesterday's hearings.
I've always liked Andy Pettitte, but as of this point, the only real proven liar, so far, is him... by his own admission! I don't understand all the high praise he is receiving.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
It is not a case of do I think so or not, it is a question of condemnation without solid proof
For Me I have no decision as yet and as I said regarding Bonds show me solid proof.
Interesting events
TR I will agree that the Clemens case has a lot of "he said she(he) said" however given the prevalence of PED's in MLB you can not apply the same standard as a "normal" case. You could argue that players are really have to go above and beyond a reasonable doubt if they are under suspicion to prove they are INNOCENT. Up to this point Clemens has not done anything to alleviate those doubts and in fact has created more.
Clemens could clear this up in one week by agreeing to undergo a independent Poly Graph test. If you or I were in his shoes (and innocent) we would have done this weeks ago. So why is he hiding behind his veil of attorneys?
Regarding Bonds the evidence is so overwhelming that you have either 1) not done the necessary research to come to an intelligent decision or 2) you are just being stubborn or 3) you are a fool. You are not a fool, so stop being stubborn or look into it and form an opinion.
PGStaff-
You sure you don't moonlight for TMZ.
You sure you don't moonlight for TMZ.
quote:you can not apply the same standard as a "normal" case. You could argue that players are really have to go above and beyond a reasonable doubt if they are under suspicion to prove they are INNOCENT.
Why does Clemens have to do more than you or I to prove innocence? Why should laws apply differently to him because public opinion is against him? Just because it's popular doesn't make it right.
There are all kinds of cases where it's popular to be against someone and when the final verdict comes out the person was innocent (obviously OJ Simpson hurts that stance). The Duke Lacrosse players are a great example. They did something bad and wrong but not illegal. Everyone was ready to lynch them and their coach because they hired a stripper. Should they have hired a stripper - no. Did the DA screw up and help create the negative public opinion toward the Duke players - yes.
quote:Clemens could clear this up in one week by agreeing to undergo a independent Poly Graph test. If you or I were in his shoes (and innocent) we would have done this weeks ago.
Most courts don't recognize polygraph tests anymore. It's not that difficult to rig the outcome if you know how to do it. All you have to do is control your breathing and it will slow down your heartrate.
You are right that people need to find out all the information before making an opinion - I try to teach that in my classes all the time. But we are convicting Clemens without any real evidence - at least evidence that would stand up in a real court of law.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
I just told you I have not enough proof either way to make a decision ---do you?
Im asking what do you think, not what evidence you have.
Yes or No. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
I say yes. You defend Clemens, and question what kind of friend Pettitte is?! How about what kind of friend Clemens is? Clemens is a liar of epic proportions.... So much so he threw his wife under the HGH bus... a total fraud, and yes, a coward outide of the lines.... I would never do this to my spouse, in fact, I would do the opposite to protect her.
Why do you defend such an obvious liar? If its to create HSBBW buzz then congrats.
PG,
I agree that was good and definetly if you lose your day job you can go to work for TMZ.
No doubt there are holes to all of this, we will never know what did and didn't take place. AP did lie earler, but appears to me, under oath, he may have come clean. He did cheat, he is no better than the other cheaters I agree. But he had an opportunity to turn it around when asked, knowing the consequences. That doesn't make it right or wrong to some, but a lot easier for someone to sleep at night. I'll bet he's gettiong more sleep than others right now.
Why do we keep hearing the same names pop up in all of this? Don't you wonder about that, I do. I don't heatr anyone mentioning Maddux, Glavin, David Ortiz, these are big fish too?
I can't understand, for the life of me, why would the information he gave back up McNamee's story and not Clemens? Why did Clemens continue to associate himself with this person? He says he is a forgiving person, most of us are, but I think intelligent enough to know if you are hanging with a person of questionable character, yours might someday be as questionable. I just don't get that, can someone explain that to me? Could it have been that he needed to keep him hanging on because McNamee had some goods on him that would hurt him someday?
Big discussion in our house, divided at times as to how this was handled but all united that IF two big names in baseball are mentioned in the same sentence as PED, imagine all of the others who we don't know about. So my assumption, along with many, is that this was a dirty period in baseball that needed to come to the surface and has to be dealt with, only for the preservation of the integrity of the game and to teach our youth valuable lessons. If you have to go to the top to do that, I have no issue with that.
As far as the representatives on the committee, it was a joke. I'll tell you what for me is the biggest slap in my face. Nannygate. Who cares whether Roger was at Canseco's party/house? They were trying to use that to show that McNamee was lying, if he couldn't remember that, then he couldn't remember the rest. They kept mentioning PARTY, was he at the party? No maybe not at the party, but most likely at his HOUSE. Where they trying to confuse me? I don't like that either. And why didn't Clemens just say, my wife and kids were staying at the house? He completely left that out, on purpose, so I am supposed to beleive YOU now? And taking the spotligt off of himself and just stating it was his wife who used HGH and AP misremembered what he said was so lame and a cheap shot, IMO. If your wife didn't feel well why didn't you seek medical help? He says his family is important to him, really?
Lots of lessons to be learned and those lessons need to be dealt with. I don't really care about this triangle thing going on, just tell me how you are going forward. The more we get stuck on this, the more nothing gets done. Let's not wait for major league bseball, the players union or the government, let's as parents, coaches on all levels, camp directors, tournament directors address this in your programs, hand out information, lecture, do whatever we have to do to protect our young people, young players, I don't care about those guys anymore, what they have or have not done will determine their place in baseball history.
JMO.
I agree that was good and definetly if you lose your day job you can go to work for TMZ.
No doubt there are holes to all of this, we will never know what did and didn't take place. AP did lie earler, but appears to me, under oath, he may have come clean. He did cheat, he is no better than the other cheaters I agree. But he had an opportunity to turn it around when asked, knowing the consequences. That doesn't make it right or wrong to some, but a lot easier for someone to sleep at night. I'll bet he's gettiong more sleep than others right now.
Why do we keep hearing the same names pop up in all of this? Don't you wonder about that, I do. I don't heatr anyone mentioning Maddux, Glavin, David Ortiz, these are big fish too?
I can't understand, for the life of me, why would the information he gave back up McNamee's story and not Clemens? Why did Clemens continue to associate himself with this person? He says he is a forgiving person, most of us are, but I think intelligent enough to know if you are hanging with a person of questionable character, yours might someday be as questionable. I just don't get that, can someone explain that to me? Could it have been that he needed to keep him hanging on because McNamee had some goods on him that would hurt him someday?
Big discussion in our house, divided at times as to how this was handled but all united that IF two big names in baseball are mentioned in the same sentence as PED, imagine all of the others who we don't know about. So my assumption, along with many, is that this was a dirty period in baseball that needed to come to the surface and has to be dealt with, only for the preservation of the integrity of the game and to teach our youth valuable lessons. If you have to go to the top to do that, I have no issue with that.
As far as the representatives on the committee, it was a joke. I'll tell you what for me is the biggest slap in my face. Nannygate. Who cares whether Roger was at Canseco's party/house? They were trying to use that to show that McNamee was lying, if he couldn't remember that, then he couldn't remember the rest. They kept mentioning PARTY, was he at the party? No maybe not at the party, but most likely at his HOUSE. Where they trying to confuse me? I don't like that either. And why didn't Clemens just say, my wife and kids were staying at the house? He completely left that out, on purpose, so I am supposed to beleive YOU now? And taking the spotligt off of himself and just stating it was his wife who used HGH and AP misremembered what he said was so lame and a cheap shot, IMO. If your wife didn't feel well why didn't you seek medical help? He says his family is important to him, really?
Lots of lessons to be learned and those lessons need to be dealt with. I don't really care about this triangle thing going on, just tell me how you are going forward. The more we get stuck on this, the more nothing gets done. Let's not wait for major league bseball, the players union or the government, let's as parents, coaches on all levels, camp directors, tournament directors address this in your programs, hand out information, lecture, do whatever we have to do to protect our young people, young players, I don't care about those guys anymore, what they have or have not done will determine their place in baseball history.
JMO.
TPM--Great post.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:quote:you can not apply the same standard as a "normal" case. You could argue that players are really have to go above and beyond a reasonable doubt if they are under suspicion to prove they are INNOCENT.
Why does Clemens have to do more than you or I to prove innocence? Why should laws apply differently to him because public opinion is against him? Just because it's popular doesn't make it right.
He doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone. He can simply do the McGwire routine and disappear with his millions of $$. This is not a legal case - it is a public relations case. Since he is one of the most visible players he has an obligation (IMO) to take responsibility, like all baseball players who have been accused, because THEIR organization fought tooth and nail so they did not have to be tested while there was RAMPANT abuse going on. This is the same organization that (he says) did not contact him when Mitchell was trying to have a meeting with him. If he wants you, I, and others to form positive opinion and” support” him then he has this obligation. If not he can just go away.
There are all kinds of cases where it's popular to be against someone and when the final verdict comes out the person was innocent (obviously OJ Simpson hurts that stance). The Duke Lacrosse players are a great example. They did something bad and wrong but not illegal. Everyone was ready to lynch them and their coach because they hired a stripper. Should they have hired a stripper - no. Did the DA screw up and help create the negative public opinion toward the Duke players - yes.
I tell my son all the time if you are going to play with pigs you are going to get filthy, so make good choices. The Duke players learned a very harsh lesson because of their choices.quote:Clemens could clear this up in one week by agreeing to undergo a independent Poly Graph test. If you or I were in his shoes (and innocent) we would have done this weeks ago.
Most courts don't recognize polygraph tests anymore. It's not that difficult to rig the outcome if you know how to do it. All you have to do is control your breathing and it will slow down your heartrate.
Again, this is not a court case and you are frankly wrong about the ability to control the outcome of a polygraph test. They are used all the time in police work, but the results are not used in actual court cases. Don’t you think it would certainly help his cause if he did pass one?
You are right that people need to find out all the information before making an opinion - I try to teach that in my classes all the time. But we are convicting Clemens without any real evidence - at least evidence that would stand up in a real court of law.
Again this is not a legal case. Right now the evidence is starting to mount that he did use PED’s and he has not done a good job of convincing anyone that he did not.
In the end it does not really matter if he did or did not. (I would certainly prefer he did not since my son is a pitcher and has always admired Roger and his work ethic) What REALLY matters is that the message is sent to our youth that PED are bad - if you use them you will be caught - when you are caught the penalties will be harsh. The additional message I hope is recognized by our kids is that it is important to think about you “hang” with. In Rogers’s case he was playing in a pigpen and he is getting filthy.
deemax
I truly can tell you that I have no idea whether Clemens did or did not use PEDS---what do I think? --I think it is a circus with sacrifical lambs---right now it matters not one iota what Clemens did or did not do---his name is ruined one way or the other
And now we have that idiot WAXMAN saying he wanted to call off the hearing but Clemens and his attorneys would not let him---what do you think of that?
I truly can tell you that I have no idea whether Clemens did or did not use PEDS---what do I think? --I think it is a circus with sacrifical lambs---right now it matters not one iota what Clemens did or did not do---his name is ruined one way or the other
And now we have that idiot WAXMAN saying he wanted to call off the hearing but Clemens and his attorneys would not let him---what do you think of that?
TR- It happens to be the truth about wanting to call off the hearings but the Clemens entourage wouldn't allow. RC's attorney said as much, characteristically, after first calling Waxman a liar. The attorney said after the depositions were taken that he wanted to have his day so that the depositions wouldn't be part of a report that couldn't be responded to. So like all things Clemens, it's OK to attack someone personally when they are telling the truth if the truth being told is inconvenient.
How about this idiot Rep. Dan Burton making judgements on the character of McNamee. Burton by all accounts was screwing around on his wife when she was dying of cancer and was the biggest womanizer in Indiana when he served there. But its OK for him to judge others. If you want to question the story being presented that's fine, but that idiot went too far.
How about this idiot Rep. Dan Burton making judgements on the character of McNamee. Burton by all accounts was screwing around on his wife when she was dying of cancer and was the biggest womanizer in Indiana when he served there. But its OK for him to judge others. If you want to question the story being presented that's fine, but that idiot went too far.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
deemax
And now we have that idiot WAXMAN saying he wanted to call off the hearing but Clemens and his attorneys would not let him---what do you think of that?
I think they should have listened to Waxman. I think it would have been in his best interest to remain quiet, he already went before us on 60 minutes, but that didn't help, this hearing was his request. He had the opportunity to go to Mitchell. He knew what was in that report. Why didn't he do it? He blames his agent, the union, his lawyer, everyone else, telling him what not to do, yet seems like a person who has always done what HE wants to do. That doesn't make sense to mNY. I never heard him say (OR DID HE)he messed up and should have spoken to Mitchell and told his side then, that would have been better than trying to gain points with public opinion. So if you ask to go before a congressional hearing regarding finding holes in the Mitchell Report, then you need to do that. He used this to go after McNamee which can do in civil court. They had that point had an obligation to dig a bit deeper and that included calling in Pettite and others. He wanted this, not them. Seems to me he doesn't care about you, me or any of the kids he has ever spoken to, he cares about his Cy Young awards. What did he say that he only got 7 but mentioned 9? What an ego.
Roger never admitted he did anything wrong when he fired a bat at Piazza... (I thought it was the ball) ... gee why didn't you throw it to first then?
Maybe he was distracted thinking about McNamee poking his wife...... with a needle.
Maybe he was distracted thinking about McNamee poking his wife...... with a needle.
Yea and I just keep thinking about those 6 FBI agents stuffed in a car, driving to the hearings together - kind of like the clown car at the circus. All with their serious meany faces on. Give me a break.
WOW! Well, I'm going to disagree with some people that I respect in Baseball here. First of all, I have all the respect in the world for Pettite. He did the right thing by coming clean. In his eyes, God comes before Clemens. Not a tough choice. Secondly, I'm embarrassed to be a republican today. Those people, especially the guy from Indiana, were embarrassing in their idolizing of Clemens and all of their grandstanding.
Next, I'm disgusted that our government is wasting time on this. We have other things they should be tending to. Finally, I have less respect for Clemens than I do for Bonds (and that is saying something). He is a great player. That said, he is a bully and a liar who will destroy anybody who gets in the way of his legacy. HIS WIFE TOOK HGH FROM MCNAMEE FOR SPORTS ILLUSTRATED!!! You don't think this guy wouldn't take ANYTHING to be better?
Common sense will tell you this guy is guilty. He should have done a mea culpa just like Giambi and all would have been forgiven. Now, he has put his legacy and his freedom in jeopardy just like Bonds. All because he thought he was bigger than everybody.
Next, I'm disgusted that our government is wasting time on this. We have other things they should be tending to. Finally, I have less respect for Clemens than I do for Bonds (and that is saying something). He is a great player. That said, he is a bully and a liar who will destroy anybody who gets in the way of his legacy. HIS WIFE TOOK HGH FROM MCNAMEE FOR SPORTS ILLUSTRATED!!! You don't think this guy wouldn't take ANYTHING to be better?
Common sense will tell you this guy is guilty. He should have done a mea culpa just like Giambi and all would have been forgiven. Now, he has put his legacy and his freedom in jeopardy just like Bonds. All because he thought he was bigger than everybody.
Well said ncball. Bond's will end up in jail and RC deserves the cell next door. Report today said that Bond's attorney's are now saying Barry didn't properly understand the question when asked by the government about steroid use.
The hero worship club is taking a big hit this week.
The hero worship club is taking a big hit this week.
A few years back SI ran an article on Clemens aobut his work ethic and his routine (which I think was somewhat not talked about for a long time 
). Husband brought that article home to son and said, here this is what seperates the men from the boys, hard work. My husband is very disapointed that article may have been a sham and he showed that to son for inspiration. That is what hurts him the most.
I did give him some advice given here on the HSBBW by a member, don't always believe what you read. Even the positive stuff may be BS.
Ok, maybe we shouldn't be dwelling on this, but IMO, show your passion, right or wrong for what's happened here, be mad, maybe that will make changes. Being blase and middle of the road got this nowhere. Stating you need to see proof gets you nowhere. As a fan and lover of the game, I am just P*SSED at everyone!
A friend of husbands told him he was taking the "show me the proof" attitude because he just CAN'T beleive it and for him he is just devastated that all those years he was watching and loving the records broken, the Cy Youngs, Golden Gloves and maybe, just maybe they were not all truely deserved.
I did give him some advice given here on the HSBBW by a member, don't always believe what you read. Even the positive stuff may be BS.
Ok, maybe we shouldn't be dwelling on this, but IMO, show your passion, right or wrong for what's happened here, be mad, maybe that will make changes. Being blase and middle of the road got this nowhere. Stating you need to see proof gets you nowhere. As a fan and lover of the game, I am just P*SSED at everyone!
A friend of husbands told him he was taking the "show me the proof" attitude because he just CAN'T beleive it and for him he is just devastated that all those years he was watching and loving the records broken, the Cy Youngs, Golden Gloves and maybe, just maybe they were not all truely deserved.
Lets stop THE NONSENSE--- we have players in the HOF who are rapists, bigots, druggies, womanizers, drunkards---shall we go on--and now the swell is to get righteous and holy---we now have an admitted illegal drug user, HGH, who sells bibles on infomation stations as well as the YES network---what gives with that?
Let us stop the BS--- LOOK FORWARD not BACKWARD===set up rooms in the HOF for the different eras and lets the records be what they are and let MLB and union make it right from here on in , if they can.
To me it matters not who did what up to now and we will not know who all the SINNERS are, EVER !!!!
Clean it up and make it work from here on in if they can
Let us stop the BS--- LOOK FORWARD not BACKWARD===set up rooms in the HOF for the different eras and lets the records be what they are and let MLB and union make it right from here on in , if they can.
To me it matters not who did what up to now and we will not know who all the SINNERS are, EVER !!!!
Clean it up and make it work from here on in if they can
I don’t know….I don’t think that the government is wasting time with this issue. Actually, there are many issues at hand.
First, how many of us actually sit and watch anything related to Congress? Do you know how your congressman (or woman) actually does his job? The people who we pay an awful lot of money to…..and who affect how we live our lives? The ones we vote on to continue in their job every two years? After watching them at work on Wednesday, are you proud of the behavior/attitude from any of them? I am disappointed in some and pleased with others. But it was fascinating to see our government at work.
Second, for the US Government to actually address this issue means (in my mind, anyway) that steroid and PED usage is a big deal. Huge. And it doesn’t actually just affect Major League Baseball. It affects ALL of us who have kids or who know kids who are interested in sports. Because in their minds, they are invincible. Nothing bad will ever happen to them. Bad stuff happens to OTHER people, not them. How many kids in 8th grade to 12th grade take stuff because they feel that they have to? How many of these very same kids will be hurt later by what they are doing now?
So, the little “insignificant” controversy regarding Roger Clemens et al, coupled with the relatively recent news about Marion Jones…..to me, that says…..you may think you can get away with it for a little while, you may think that your little white lies may not be found out, but in the end the truth will come out. You will get caught. Somehow, some way. Better to come clean now, while the punishment may be a little more lenient. Better still, better to not even do the bad thing, whatever it is, because you’ll get caught. Somehow, some day. And it may be too late to say “sorry”.
Major League Baseball has taken a huge hit in my mind. THEY should have put an end to it years ago. They should have told the players union to “go jump”---and if they didn’t like it, I’ll bet that MLB could have found an additional 500 or 1000 other players –who were clean-- to have taken the place of the members who were against the drug testing.
I wish that they will do that to "move forward". Like it or leave it, and make room for the ones who are clean.
First, how many of us actually sit and watch anything related to Congress? Do you know how your congressman (or woman) actually does his job? The people who we pay an awful lot of money to…..and who affect how we live our lives? The ones we vote on to continue in their job every two years? After watching them at work on Wednesday, are you proud of the behavior/attitude from any of them? I am disappointed in some and pleased with others. But it was fascinating to see our government at work.
Second, for the US Government to actually address this issue means (in my mind, anyway) that steroid and PED usage is a big deal. Huge. And it doesn’t actually just affect Major League Baseball. It affects ALL of us who have kids or who know kids who are interested in sports. Because in their minds, they are invincible. Nothing bad will ever happen to them. Bad stuff happens to OTHER people, not them. How many kids in 8th grade to 12th grade take stuff because they feel that they have to? How many of these very same kids will be hurt later by what they are doing now?
So, the little “insignificant” controversy regarding Roger Clemens et al, coupled with the relatively recent news about Marion Jones…..to me, that says…..you may think you can get away with it for a little while, you may think that your little white lies may not be found out, but in the end the truth will come out. You will get caught. Somehow, some way. Better to come clean now, while the punishment may be a little more lenient. Better still, better to not even do the bad thing, whatever it is, because you’ll get caught. Somehow, some day. And it may be too late to say “sorry”.
Major League Baseball has taken a huge hit in my mind. THEY should have put an end to it years ago. They should have told the players union to “go jump”---and if they didn’t like it, I’ll bet that MLB could have found an additional 500 or 1000 other players –who were clean-- to have taken the place of the members who were against the drug testing.
I wish that they will do that to "move forward". Like it or leave it, and make room for the ones who are clean.
TR- You have spun this more than these politicians. I watched the whole charade on tv and spent hours on the internet reading about it. Clemens did it. His mistake is the same mistake Bonds made (as well as Clinton and Nixon). Instead of admitting and asking for forgiveness, he tried to cover it up with lies. It's the perjury, not the initial mistake.
play baseball- My problem with the hearings was that these politicians spent more time talking and not enough time listening. This should not have been televised for those idiot, attention-*****s to espouse their ignorance on the subject.
play baseball- My problem with the hearings was that these politicians spent more time talking and not enough time listening. This should not have been televised for those idiot, attention-*****s to espouse their ignorance on the subject.
Great post PB!
Play baseball,
Good post.
As far as the other "bad" people in the HOF, does not mean let's sweep this under the rug along with the others and move forward. Let's move forward and do something. I am sure there are many who played and survived the game on plenty to enhance their performance. You can't go backwards.
How many of those players pretended to be someone who they were not? How many of those spoke to groups of children and told them they were successful because they worked hard and nothing else helped them to be who they are and it wasn't true? I doubt not many of them.
For me it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, future HOFers, what matters is the future players of tomorrow. Those had their chance, if they blew it that is their problem.
Anyone who works with players should be outraged, JMO. We tell our kids to be honest, to own up, even after you mess up, but now they see those that should (everyone in this case) STILL will profit and make millions of $$$. This is not just about baseball, as play baseball pointed out.
Though I know that players are told what goes on in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse, but those speaking up now are labeled as "traitors" or bad friends. That's not how I see it.
Excuses, excuses, now someone mentioned BONDS misunderstood the questions asked?
Ignorance is not bliss and not a reason to lie. JMO.
Good post.
As far as the other "bad" people in the HOF, does not mean let's sweep this under the rug along with the others and move forward. Let's move forward and do something. I am sure there are many who played and survived the game on plenty to enhance their performance. You can't go backwards.
How many of those players pretended to be someone who they were not? How many of those spoke to groups of children and told them they were successful because they worked hard and nothing else helped them to be who they are and it wasn't true? I doubt not many of them.
For me it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, future HOFers, what matters is the future players of tomorrow. Those had their chance, if they blew it that is their problem.
Anyone who works with players should be outraged, JMO. We tell our kids to be honest, to own up, even after you mess up, but now they see those that should (everyone in this case) STILL will profit and make millions of $$$. This is not just about baseball, as play baseball pointed out.
Though I know that players are told what goes on in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse, but those speaking up now are labeled as "traitors" or bad friends. That's not how I see it.
Excuses, excuses, now someone mentioned BONDS misunderstood the questions asked?
Ignorance is not bliss and not a reason to lie. JMO.
quote:Originally posted by ncball:
TR- You have spun this more than these politicians. I watched the whole charade on tv and spent hours on the internet reading about it. Clemens did it. His mistake is the same mistake Bonds made (as well as Clinton and Nixon). Instead of admitting and asking for forgiveness, he tried to cover it up with lies. It's the perjury, not the initial mistake.
You are right. I have looked into this very deeply as well. Roger was my hero and I don't know how many occasions I told my son how amazing he was when his awesome resurgence was in full swing. "The Rocket is amazing" I said I don't know how many times. So I did the duedilligence to give every chance that this was not true. Roger is arrogant, rich, a great baseball player, but he is also pretty ignorant if he thinks we were all born yesterday. And for those who say "move on".... I agree and I personally will when I have vented enough.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080214
The simple truth is that players who we have all looked up to in one way or another have been caught up in this mess. But those who complain about how this came to light miss the point that without the gov't involvement, Bonds, Clemons and company would still be at it and other's copying them in full swing.
TR and others like him have been part of the hero worship club that have for too long attempted to find every possible excuse for these player's illegal and unethical behavior. The chickens have finally come home to rost and in the long run baseball should be better for it. What TR and company have never understood is that baseball needed to be disenfected and that is not a pretty process.
TR and others like him have been part of the hero worship club that have for too long attempted to find every possible excuse for these player's illegal and unethical behavior. The chickens have finally come home to rost and in the long run baseball should be better for it. What TR and company have never understood is that baseball needed to be disenfected and that is not a pretty process.