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Clemens fighting to save his butt ... kissers

B baseballregie100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Moc1:
Let's clear up a misconception about the "innocent until proven guilty" idea that has been repeated over and over again.

Is a person that actually committed an illegal act but was not found guilty in a court of law, really innocent?

Does it make sense to say that someone is INNOCENT of taking drugs if you actually have no clue if he did or not? What is your basis?

Under our court system we are to ASSUME that a person is innocent until evidence proves otherwise. However, lack of evidence does not-DOES NOT-mean the person did not commit the crime.

There is not one person reading this forum that hasn't at one time or another made assumptions about innocence or guilt without proof from the courts. We are allowed to speculate based on our own experiences and thought processes.

One last question. If someone makes a statement publicly accusing any of "you" of a crime that you are 100% innocent of, what would your reaction be? This? "I just want someone to tell the truth." McNamee has just ruined Clemen's life with a blatant lie and he tells McNamee that he'll get with his people and then get back to him. Look, I saw Roberto Alomar spit in an umpire's face for a heckuvalot less than that. I don't know about you all but the first chance I get(which would have been 1 minute after I heard the accusation) I would have been on the phone blasting the guy and calling him every name I could think of and then telling him that if he didn't go back to Mitchell and tell the truth I would make it my life's effort to get him. Remember-he just told a complete lie about me, why would I even consider being civil to him-AS HE WAS IN THE TAPED CONVERSATION?

I think some of us need a dose of reality.


Absolutely agree. The logic I have trouble following are the assertions that McNamee is probably just doing this to "get" Roger or because of "jealousy" or` that Mitchell pleaded with McNamee to "please give me some stuff on Roger Clemens". Makes NO SENSE.

All one has to do is put yourself in McNamees' shoes and determine what you would have done. Lying wasn't an option for him.
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
Moc, very good valid points. I can't argue with you on things you said.

However, your "dose of reality" is your own formed opinions and my "dose of reality" are my opinions. We all have them. I think we can agree to disagree on this point.

IF Roger is guilty because all evidence/testimony HAS been found to be valid and untainted AND found guilty by a real life Judge...then I along with everyone else will then make our own decisions as to how we will react to the verdict. Will we forgive him or not? Does he deserve to be in the HOF one day or not? Do I toss all my 22 jerseys in the trash? etc. etc.

Our own assumptions, opinions, speculations, thoughts, etc. doesn't make one guilty. Evidence, testimony, and sometimes a jury are the one(s) who decide that.

If after the Judge has ruled and all has been said and done that Roger is innocent of all accusations and charges, what will be the public reaction then? Guess what? Who cares? To Roger, family, friends, and maybe even the HOF, it really doesn't matter does it? He is innocent. Case closed. Sure, we all will have our public court of opinion but why should Roger care? We don't pay him. MLB does. The HOF will have to admit him because he has been found to be innocent of all charges. The reverse side of the coin to all this is: if found guilty...his goose is cooked every way you turn.

I'm not trying to be unrealistic about all this. All I'm trying to say is let's all wait and see. It should be over and soon enough.
Last edited by YoungGunDad
trojan-skippertrojan-skipper1,000+ posts
quote:
waste of taxpayer money


The only chance we have of making the PEDs go away is if the Government gets involved. No one else is big enough. The future health of a generation is important enough for Congressional hearings.
Kids are equating sports with DRUGS just like ladies that go into modeling instantly think they'll get plastic surgery... it is frightening to me.
B baseballregie100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
quote:
waste of taxpayer money


The only chance we have of making the PEDs go away is if the Government gets involved. No one else is big enough. The future health of a generation is important enough for Congressional hearings.
Kids are equating sports with DRUGS just like ladies that go into modeling instantly think they'll get plastic surgery... it is frightening to me.


Thanks. I was having a problem with that too. It's money well spent.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
trojan-skip posted: Kids are equating sports with DRUGS just like ladies that go into modeling instantly think they'll get plastic surgery... it is frightening to me


Yes some of us girls may have gone a little overboard...but all for a good cause. The results speak for themselves fella.

MJ
Last edited by Dad04
S switchitter100+ posts
We are all going to have an opinion on this. And that opinion is concrete for most pro or con regarding Clemens. It's like the O.J. trial, the Patriots spy-gate, and Bonds. I see either an emphatic guilty or innocent until proven guilty. Clemens is not going to trial people, opinions can be based on what we know already. Most of us don't even need to see all dozen or so indicators; I mean come on, a lidocaine injection in the butt? That is the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. Medical opinions on that range from it being laughably ludicrous to a not-so-well-thought-out smoke-n-mirrors attempt. The medical community is laughing their collective heads off on that one alone. Regardless, it's up to everyone to frame their own opinions.

Lidocaine is used topically to relieve itching, burning and pain from skin inflammations, injected as a dental anesthetic, and in minor surgery.

Was Roger getting a tooth pulled? Was he getting minor surgery? Perhaps McNamee was going to do a colonoscopy on him. Hmmm?
Last edited by switchitter
S switchitter100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
We are about 10 hours away from hearing Clemens defense switch to "I dont know what Mcnamee was injecting me with."


Exactly. It will be "he told me he needed to inject me with some vitimans in my rear because it absorbs quicker and I believed him and I think he used lidocaine to numb by rump because I fell in a skiing accident 5 days prior". "My wife was injected with some vitimans too because it was her belief that anything good enough for me was good enough for her".
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I am listening to ESPN which I am told is the Enquirer of Sports but I do have to comment with one thing stated.

Regarding Clemens situation, I am not understanding why this is an issue for Congress. Congress's purpose should be to work with MLB on issues regarding use and testing, not going after one or two people named in the report.

Can anyone explain that to me, IMO, go spend your own money and fight it out with MLB for allowing that in public, I'd rather see my tax dollars spent elsewhere.
Last edited by TPM
Moc1Moc1500+ posts
I agree that Congress should not be going after individual players.

However, I think it's clear after hearing the opening statement by Waxman that this is about the credibility of the Mitchell report. Clemens vehemently denies the allegations.
If congress leaves his denial unchallenged then basically it invalidates the whole report
and consequently says that the millions spent on the investigation were a complete waste of taxpayer money. Like it or not they had to follow through with this.

To some it may be about nailing individuals-believe that if you want. IMO it's about
this committee trying to save face.
Moc1Moc1500+ posts
Totally unbelievable that McNamee injected Clemen's wife in their bedroom and he didn't know anything about it.

Then when she had a reaction to the drug Roger didn't get her to the hospital or at least
their doctor?????

Or just maybe......

I guess YoungGunDad you're correct.

"Our own assumptions, opinions, speculations, thoughts, etc. doesn't make one guilty. Evidence, testimony, and sometimes a jury are the one(s) who decide that."

I'm glad I don't have to wait for a judge or jury to form an opinion.
O Orlando1,000+ posts
Clemens is blissfully unaware of so much, like that Mitchell wanted to talk to him --- "I was never told by my agents/attorneys" Hey, why not, it's only his reputation. He's just gone off on that tune again...at length...with a bit of flag-waving thrown in.

I loved the little flare when they were asking about his talking to the nanny before the committee had a chance to question her "Hey, I did you a favor!" Wha???? A congressional committee asks you to comply with an investigation and it's a "favor"???
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando:
Clemens is blissfully unaware of so much, like that Mitchell wanted to talk to him --- "I was never told by my agents/attorneys" Hey, why not, it's only his reputation. He's just gone off on that tune again...at length...with a bit of flag-waving thrown in.

I loved the little flare when they were asking about his talking to the nanny before the committee had a chance to question her "Hey, I did you a favor!" Wha???? A congressional committee asks you to comply with an investigation and it's a "favor"???


I don't get some of this stuff either, but I do agree AP should have been there.
I don't get the not showing up for Mitchell (claims he didn't know about it) and later he was advised not too, but more than helpful with bringing the Nanny to the house? I do understand they have the right to question a witness, but it could be conceived as tampering?

Listening to Former Superior Court Judge Neopalatano (sp?) from NJ, and others, all of this did not have to occur today but Roger and lawyers insisted he wanted to clear his name. He explained the dangers of going before a congressional committe, not taking the 5th, etc. to protect himself. He also suggested, that in his best interest, would have been best advice to never say anything, ever and leave it up to the court of public opinion rather than the Feds. He claims you rarely win in these situations. His opinion, it was more important for Roger to defend his Cy Young awards than possibly going to jail.
I find it all sad, all these individuals who would lie to save themselves, I am not sure I beleive anyone anymore. But it's good this has all come out, as one person reported today, it goes beyond the scope of the players, it's MLB, it's the Players Association, it's the trainers, the doctors, the teams AND the press, who also knew this was going on.
Last edited by TPM
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:
Originally posted by Moc1:

I'm glad I don't have to wait for a judge or jury to form an opinion.



I'm glad that you don't either Moc. Seems you are one of many ready and chomping at the bit to declare him guilty.

Wasn't it just this morning that Roger admitted he KNEW that McNamee had in fact injected his wife with HGH prior to her photo shoot? Either way...test his wife. If she's positive, keep her out of future publications of SI magazine. It doesn't necessarily mean that the NY drug dealer injected Roger with it, now does it?

Please...enlighten me further how this does. I can't wait for your opinions...yet again.
S switchitter100+ posts
As much as I hate to say it, Roger Clemens was bumbling on most of his answers, did not seem credible, seemed unclear in most of his responses. Came off really cocky at times.

The pendulem swings to McNamee based on the Pettite deposition and Pettite's wife. I saw the entire hearing and I must tell you....i was 95% convinced Clemens was guilty before the hearings and after I am 100% convinced. He is up a creek right now but I doubt this goes to court. It's a sad day for a baseball fan.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
quote:
Originally posted by Moc1:

I'm glad I don't have to wait for a judge or jury to form an opinion.



I'm glad that you don't either Moc. Seems you are one of many ready and chomping at the bit to declare him guilty.

Wasn't it just this morning that Roger admitted he KNEW that McNamee had in fact injected his wife with HGH prior to her photo shoot? Either way...test his wife. If she's positive, keep her out of future publications of SI magazine. It doesn't necessarily mean that the NY drug dealer injected Roger with it, now does it?

Please...enlighten me further how this does. I can't wait for your opinions...yet again.


Listen to Clemen's attorney, he said he will leave it up to the American people to decide for themselves. He's talking about taking POLLS after this came out. That's what they were concerned about, the court of public opinion. Actually, it doesn't matter what I think, what matters is what the FEDS think. This was their strategy, don't you get that?

There will be those who beleive and don't beleive based on today. I would imagine if you took another poll, Roger didn't do too well.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
i was surprised you need a prescription for b 12 injections as well as lidocaine. the one thing I see from this.while it may not be ped's roger abused, he did abuse priscription drugs.that makes him a drug abuser. that doesn't sit well in my mind.not the message to send to kids, thank goodness most are blinded by the bigger picture.
S switchitter100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
A barbeque at Jose Canseco's home?

Not at the barbeque, but golfing on the property while the nanny and kids were there?

Inconsitencies may cast doubt, but Roidger lied. He was caught in his obvious attempts to be deceitful.


Clemens stories (lies) that didn't make any sense:

1) Nanny-Gate - Roger was clearly caught off guard on this one and tried to lie his way out. Didn't work.

2) Pettite & wife info - Clemens couldn't explain that. Sounded crass and confused.

3) HGH to his wife - now he admits it. First he said his wife was being slandered.

4) Conseco party. Roger caught in a lie again.

Wow, too many to list. I'm worn out by the Clemens character who I thought was my hero.

IMO: Clemens is trying to save his face and lying in the process in front of a nation AND his kids at the same time.

I really thought that the truth might come out of Roger's mouth today in a sorrowful, remourseful, apology. I was wrong.
Last edited by switchitter
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
I've never claimed that Roger's lawyer was the sharpest knife in the drawer. To take a poll about which way the public is leaning is, well, ludicrous and irrelevant in my opinion. 40% of America will think he is guilty, the other 40% will think he is innocent, and the remaining 20% won't care for various reasons.

TPM, that's what I have been trying to convey all along...it really doesn't matter what ANY of us think!!! It's exactly what the Feds and Congress think. THAT is what ultimately will be the thing that frees or imprisons Roger.

Thank you for confirming what I've been trying to say all along!
Moc1Moc1500+ posts
SmileYGD, As a former professional ballplayer-and it doesn't make my opinion more valid
over anyone else's-I have tried my best to remain neutral and actually given the benefit of the doubt to Clemens(and others) when (my) common sense dictated otherwise.

Forming an opinion(mine) does not put Clemens in jail, or take away his fortune, or his wife's right to be in a magazine, or his son's right to pursue his own baseball career.
By your comment that I'm "chomping at the bit" to declare him guilty, then I guess you're
chomping at the bit to declare McNamee guilty.

I think both of them have big problems-Clemens with ego and McNamee with trying to ride the "gravy train" as long as he could.

I know personally what happens to a lot of guys who become "stars" and think that they're living in a different world from the rest of us. Fan adoration, media hype, fame, fortune, glory---it all starts to creep into their psychy and they forget their roots. It's not an easy thing to remain humble when everywhere you go people are bowing down in front of you. My opinion is is that this is what is motivating Clemens.

Is Clemens innocent of the accusations?--He's extremely persuasive and really had me wanting to believe him today. Yes, it IS possible but neither I nor you have to wait for a court verdict to form an opinion about it. Wink

BTW, about Clemens' wife. He stated today-under oath-that he did NOT know that McNamee
injected his wife until after the fact. He since has stated that he knew this afterward
and does not deny that it happened. Do you not find it strange that she had his trainer
stick a needle into her with an illegal drug and didn't ask Roger's advice first?
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