Clemens fighting to save his butt ... kissers

This is the more telling poll: (from CNN)

Whom do you believe?
Roger Clemens 19% 19909
Brian McNamee 38% 40050
Neither 43% 45691
Total Votes: 105650


Only 19% side with Clemens.

but 43 % are on the fence !!!!

You walk into situations like this and want the truth. First you listen to politicians talk, then the accuser, then the accused. Now I'm confused and I want to listen to someone who has their head on straight. I turn on the radio and the first thing I hear is STEVEN A SMITH. He is the biggest idiot on the air today but thats the type where many draw their opinions from IMHO, and that is sad.

Now I don't care. I'm resigned to the fact that because very, very few ball players have come forward that they are all trying to protect themselves. I don't think anyone is completely innocent. I don't think Clemens is right but at the same I don't think he should be the MLB sacrificial lamb as there's way to many sheep in that flock.

Let's play ball.

quote:

I don't think Clemens is right but at the same I don't think he should be the MLB sacrificial lamb as there's way to many sheep in that flock.

I'm guessing more than a few players are saying "Whew!....I'm glad it ain't me.....Poor b astard."

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:

Do you not find it strange that she had his trainer
stick a needle into her with an illegal drug and didn't ask Roger's advice first?

Strange? I find it disgustingly bizarre that a wife would seek out something like this especially so she could look good for a photo. According to Newsday: Newsday reported that McNamee said he injected Debbie Clemens in the master bedroom of the Clemenses' Houston estate and that he also testified that Roger Clemens urged his wife to take HGH because it would be good for her career as a fitness expert. According to Newsday's source, McNamee said it took Clemens four days to convince his wife to take the drug, which is injected through the stomach, because Debbie Clemens was afraid of the effects. According to Newsday's source, Debbie Clemens took HGH to prepare for the swimsuit photo shoot.

So it sounds like to me according to this article that it wasn't a matter of her seeking his advise but more that he was urging her to. What bothers me about this is that he states that there is no place for HGH, yet it's ok to shoot up his own hot wife with it. Go figure. Do as I say, not as I do...??

It's in the Feds hands now. We will all see very soon where this ship is headed.

quote:

Originally posted by switchitter:

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
ESPN poll after the hearing.

69% said they believe McNamee
31% said they believed Clemens

Hope this post ain't deleted!

isn't that the same poll that was out last night? I don't think that poll came out AFTER the hearing. I could be wrong...

Yep, you are wrong. They stated how since the hearing not much had changed in the publics eyes.
And they did use the quote "this is an unscientific"

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:

quote:

I don't think Clemens is right but at the same I don't think he should be the MLB sacrificial lamb as there's way to many sheep in that flock.

I'm guessing more than a few players are saying "Whew!....I'm glad it ain't me.....Poor b astard."

He wasn't the only one named in the report just one with the most to lose.

He insisted on this hearing to prove McNamee was lying. Did he know he would have to prove the others were lying too? He bit off more than he or his liars could chew. This is a personal issue between a player and his former trainer, fight it out in court before a jury (if you can find an impartial one) on your own dime. McNamee appears to have better representation, I doubt he would lose.

roger takes the b 12 his wife takes the hgh. strange ,but even when he was throwing her under the bus she sat there quietly stroking her gotee. what a crazy day.

I feel bad for the folks who only heard this on the radio or didn't watch the whole thing on tv. The body language of the two guys was very telling. McNamee was very calm and collected and answered in as much detail as he could. Roger was obviously very uncomfortable and trying to find the right words to say...not to mention how many times his attorneys had to pull him back and coach him how to answer.

And don't get me started on the various congressmen and women. What a bunch of tv hogging morons. I love the one female republican who put the 4 pictures of clemens up there and 'testified' that she didn't see much physical difference before and after the HGH.

Can someone answer this for me, except for the one Republican from Indiana, all the Dems were obviously supporting McNamee and all the Repubs were obviously supporting Clemens. Why in the world would this be a Rep vs. Dem issue? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Does this entire circus make sense?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TPM:
He wasn't the only one named in the report just one with the most to lose. [QUOTE]
That report hit only a fraction of the abusers over the last X number of years. I'll bet they missed 75% of the users in that time frame. The sport was tainted because fans love records and winning and there was a period of time in the last 10-15 years that there was "snake oil" available to give the fans what they wanted.

I should probably put the flak jacket on real soon.

RZ

All of those in position to make something happen over the past 20 plus years have done nothing


Can we say BUD SELIG --MR $$$$$$$$$$

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:

roger takes the b 12 his wife takes the hgh. strange ,but even when he was throwing her under the bus she sat there quietly stroking her gotee . what a crazy day.

FINALLY....someone with a sense of humor about all this! That made me laugh pretty darn hard right there!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RZ

All of those in position to make something happen over the past 20 plus years have done nothing


Can we say BUD SELIG --MR $$$$$$$$$$

I'll go with that, but he works for someone doesn't he?

and lets not forget about the MLBPA, the strongest Union in the world. Isn't it their job to oversee the health and welfare of their people?

and while we have fingers out pointing lets look at the guys in the dugout and their coaches. Didn't we teach our kids to "JUST SAY NO" or are the players just not grown up enough to understand the potential outcome and the meaning of "fair play"

http://www.debbieclemens.com/fitness.htm

At what point did Roger find out his wife did the hgh? I'm surprised a man like Roger didn't beat the guy to a pulp after finding out he was injecting his wife with illegal drugs..... He and his wife being so into a healthy life style.

how about the fact that roger knew about the mitchell report .and his lawyer sent the investigater to macnamee's house to interview him. he knew what he said before the report came out?? and it took him 2 days to get on youtube to denounce it?

and the nanny said they were at cancecos house that afternoon? but she may have misremembered? is that even a word?

as his lawyer said they were just trying to swing the court of public opinion back to roger.

i'm pretty sure both sides have told some untruths about the whole thing. and the real truth is some where in the middle.

how's that go? when you practice to decieve..........

Don't you mean a dis-re-misremembered web?

quote:

Originally posted by YHF:
Can someone answer this for me, except for the one Republican from Indiana, all the Dems were obviously supporting McNamee and all the Repubs were obviously supporting Clemens. Why in the world would this be a Rep vs. Dem issue? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

It's election time, Mitchell is a Democrat (therefore the Republicans might be happy to discredit his report), and we have the stereotypic demographics of each party. I was appalled by the Hero Worship from a few of them, rather reminded me of Bonds going to court to have his alimony payments adjusted because of 'economic hardship' during the strike. His ex said she knew she was in trouble when the judge asked for his autograph.

quote:

Originally posted by sluggo:
Is it possible that McNamee's reason for implicating Clemens was because the feds told him that was what they wanted to hear, because they needed a "Big Name" to justify wasting $44 mil? yes

Is it possible that McNamee kept beer cans and needles from lidocaine and B-12 shots to sell on Ebay as memorabilia, and then found a different use for them? After learning of McNamee's MOTIVE, I now think he kept them to mix with steriods in order to frame him

Is it possible that McNamee told Mitchell he did not have physical evidence against Clemens because he didn't? yes

Is it possible that Andy took 2 injections and did not tell Roger because he was embarrassed?yes

Is it possible that McNamee lied about Roger (and his family) being at Canseco's party and talking about steroids?yes

Is it possible that McNamee secretly resents Roger's fame and fortune and got great pleasure in causing him pain by lying about him?yes

Is it possible that Congress is not going to have Pettitte, Knoblauch or Radomski testify tomorrow because their testimony would hurt Mitchell's "star" witness, McNamee, and help their target, Clemens?yes

I'm sticking with the Rocket.

I just finished readng Pettitte's deposition on Waxman's website and it provides some interesting revelations including the fact that Pettitte says that when Clemens said Pettitte misunderstood him about HGH and that it was Deb he was refering to, Pettitte says he himself believed he misunderstood Roger. Deb is a Rich Big City Texas gal and with that goes plastic surgery, hormones and whatever else it takes to keep looking good. It is her and every other rich society babe in town who can afford it. This is not news to anyone in H town.

Andy also goes on to state that it is very common for team doctors and trainers to give B 12 shots. Whay would McNamee lie about that? Too use the needles with Roger's DNA to frame him, maybe?

The deposition reveals MOTIVE for McNamee to lie about Roger and that is because he is angry with him. McNamee was trying to get Clemens and Pettitte to lend their name to a vitamin product called Invite that McNamee was involved with in exchange for vitamins. Pettitte said yes, Roger said no, he wanted compensation and McNamee was angry about it. He immediately began badmouthing Roger and saying he used steriods, just out of the blue.

As far as the nanny, she was on Houston news last night and she says Roger was a wonderful man, she was at Canseco's party, Roger was not at the party and she would swear on a bible or whatever they wanted her to do. No one said Clemens was never ever at Jose's house, just that he was not at the PARTY. The reason this is important is that it proves that Mitchell did a p iss poor job of fact checking. If he can't get this straight, what else is unverified?

I personally am upset that an IRS agent and 6 FBI agents are at this circus and for what reason - to find terrorists, murderers, child rapists, kidnappers, drug lords? SIX!!! Nope, just to intimidate a baseball player. This is the USA folks, not Iran, and that should not be happening.

Sluggo


Amen to that 100 times over !!!


Yesterday to me was a farce especially Waxman and his gavel " this is not your time to argue with me ! " Such a pompous ***

quote:

I just finished readng Pettitte's deposition on Waxman's website and it provides some interesting revelations including the fact that Pettitte says that when Clemens said Pettitte misunderstood him about HGH and that it was Deb he was refering to, Pettitte says he himself believed he misunderstood Roger.

Sluggo, why didn't you tell the whole story? Pettite later in the deposition states that he did not misunderstand what Clemens told him and that he soon thereafter went to McNamee and told him what Clemens had said about using HGH and that McNamee became very upset that Clemens would divulge that information.

Pettite also said that McNamee also told him that Clemens was using steroids.

Maybe you didn't get that far when you read it.

BTW, you make some good points about all the possibilities.

Got to go now-flying pigs are in my back yard playing ice hockey with the devil.

Yes, I saw where they led the witness into saying what they wanted him to say - eventually.

Why were the democrats and republicans so one sided?

Most everything was fine until the very end. Why did Waxman get the final word and why was that final word what it was. He knew that millions were watching as he proclaimed Clemens guilty and he "apologized" to a guy that pretty much admitted lying in the past and administering drugs, among other serious problems. If apologizes were in order, why not apologize to both of them? This all coming from a guy who claimed these procedings weren't to judge. Obviously, this guy was there to judge! The apology to McNamee was uncalled for and made me ill!

Andy Pettitte was the most important person in this hearing. I would like to know who decided he didn't have to be there and more importantly WHY!

I would have liked to have seen him questioned, in front of millions of people. Then maybe we would know even more today.

Anyway, this stuff is getting real old, but I think it is important to baseball.

PG...I found that interesting as well. Democrats and Republicans split almost down the center. Democrats against; Republicans for.

Another thing that surprised me. Everyone is talking about good old honest "Andy".

How come the media hasn't caught on to the fact that Pettitte announced to the world... He was sorry that he only used HGH those two times that McNamee did it (only to get back and help his team)... Yet in his testimony he added another time in 2004 that he used HGH... that he got from his father. Wonder if there were any other times?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Another thing that surprised me. Everyone is talking about good old honest "Andy".

How come the media hasn't caught on to the fact that Pettitte announced to the world... He was sorry that he only used HGH those two times that McNamee did it (only to get back and help his team)... Yet in his testimony he added another time in 2004 that he used HGH... that he got from his father. Wonder if there were any other times?

Because Pettite (plus Giambi and others) are standing up and saying "I did it, it was wrong, and I am sorry"

Compare them to Bonds, CLEMENS, et al, who are all hiring powerful lawyers and are pretending nothing really happened.

Pretty simple actually.

Pretty simple only in the minds of people that see it that way


And why wasnt Mr Pettite there yesterday? Only he knows and why did his wife give an affidavit?

quote:

Anyway, this stuff is getting real old, but I think it is important to baseball.

That seems contradictory... but I agree with your other sentiments PG - especially about Pettite.

I believe it is "old" already and pursuing the past is no longer important to baseball. Baseball may have a better drug policy now than the other 3 major sports. The only issue now is how do we erradicate them in the future. As far as I know, there is no test for HGH. If there is a blood test for HGH, (does anyone know?) then yesterday's hearing was a complete waste of time imho. In that case, the hearing should have had Bud Selig and Don Fehr before them and made them answer why they can't implement such test. I want solutions and don't really care who gets into the hall of fame.

Selig said he was going to call on the greatest minds in the country to solve this problem. Well, the hearing would have been much more useful calling Selig and/or other experts to lets us know what solutions may exist today. In the mean time, maybe reasonable threshold tests can be set up. In other words, if an athlete all of a sudden adds dramatic bulk, changes hat sizes, shoe sizes etc., perhaps that athlete can be more heavily scrutinized by the league. If they come up with a respectible test, this issue will go away yesterday. Even the idea of taking current blood samples and saving them is a good one imho. Some athletes may not want to risk their future if they believe a test will develop in the future that may put them in jeopardy.

Yes there are blood test to detect levels of HGH but the problem is there are no "normal values". Once they get a #(result), they can't say for sure if the result is normal for that person or abnormal. The players union has opposed drug test utilizing "intrusive" collection methods. That means no phlebotomy or needles but collecting urine is OK. No urine test for hgh cause it's not excreted in the urine.

quote:

And why wasnt Mr Pettite there yesterday? Only he knows and why did his wife give an affidavit?

Again pretty simple: HE WAS NOT ASKED TO BE THERE.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, guess what IT'S A DUCK.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballregie:
Yes there are blood test to detect levels of HGH but the problem is there are no "normal values". Once they get a #(result), they can't say for sure if the result is normal for that person or abnormal. The players union has opposed drug test utilizing "intrusive" collection methods. That means no phlebotomy or needles but collecting urine is OK. No urine test for hgh cause it's not excreted in the urine.

Well... they could establish a norm for each player then and monitor them over time. Sure it sounds like a pain but that might be one possible solution. Look for dramatic threshold changes in blood samples from one to the next. Obviously I don't have the answers but questioning about the past does not solve the existing problems. Surely, figuring out whether Clemens was at a barbeque or not does not provide answers for the future.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by baseballregie:
Yes there are blood test to detect levels of HGH but the problem is there are no "normal values". Once they get a #(result), they can't say for sure if the result is normal for that person or abnormal. The players union has opposed drug test utilizing "intrusive" collection methods. That means no phlebotomy or needles but collecting urine is OK. No urine test for hgh cause it's not excreted in the urine.

Well... they could establish a norm for each player then and monitor them over time. Sure it sounds like a pain but that might be one possible solution. Look for dramatic threshold changes in blood samples from one to the next. Obviously I don't have the answers but questioning about the past does not solve the existing problems. Surely, figuring out whether Clemens was at a barbeque or not does not provide answers for the future.

The sensitivity and cost will get better in the future probably but the real problem is that until the union agrees to allow blood collection, it won't happen. That HAS to be the next step.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Pretty simple only in the minds of people that see it that way


And why wasnt Mr Pettite there yesterday? Only he knows and why did his wife give an affidavit?

Do you think Roger is guilty of using HGH and steroids?

It is not a case of do I think so or not, it is a question of condemnation without solid proof

For Me I have no decision as yet and as I said regarding Bonds show me solid proof.

Some questions for McNAmee which nobody answered:

Why was he off the police force in three years?---was he thrown off because of the rape escapade and his lying?

Why was he a MLB employee with a sham of a PHD degree? Does that "degree" give him the right to give injections of any kind?

If the Mitchell Report and investigation was so complete how come all this new "stuff", I won't call it evidence, is just now coming to light?

McNamee confessed yesterday to lying about certain things and thus why is not the info questionable?


Interesting events

why did roger clemens recommend the Yankees hire
McNAmee and defend him when he got in trouble.

McNAmee is shady , crook and drug dealer, apparently MLB does not mind having this type of personality injecting their players and Clemens.Clemen's lawyers are not believable either.

MLB and Roger Clemens are just as shady as McNAmee.

105 MLB players failed the steriod test in 2003, still they never released the names. Wonder why,
some big names are on the list.

FRANK/ANDY


If the list of 100 to 105 names has not been released how do you know there are big names on the list or does big name mean a lot of letter in the last name?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153874 McNamee takes center stage with bombshells about Clemens

i really have to wonder why his phd is a sham ? is it because it was mail order ? or just the school ?
as i understand it the largest school in the country,and the namesake of the stadium the super bowl was played in. has no campus. is that a shame as well.


i'm just sticking up for the millions of people who take classes that way, maybe they don't know they are sham's.

TR common sense,

YOu really think MLB would want a PR nightmare like they have right now. 105 of 750 MLB players tested postive for steroids in 2003 for test they knew was coming and dispite masking agents and other attempts to pass the test they still failed it.

YOu think any business wants people to think they have a bunch of cheaters and drug addicts working for them.

Alot of parents and players think they MUST TAKE PED DRUGS to play and compete at the MLB LEVEL.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
It is not a case of do I think so or not, it is a question of condemnation without solid proof

For Me I have no decision as yet and as I said regarding Bonds show me solid proof.

Some questions for McNAmee which nobody answered:

Why was he off the police force in three years?---was he thrown off because of the rape escapade and his lying?

Why was he a MLB employee with a sham of a PHD degree? Does that "degree" give him the right to give injections of any kind?

If the Mitchell Report and investigation was so complete how come all this new "stuff", I won't call it evidence, is just now coming to light?

McNamee confessed yesterday to lying about certain things and thus why is not the info questionable?


Interesting events

Yes or no. Do you think Clemens cheated?