I am not a very active poster on boards, but I have been a very active reader for the past two years trying to learn from people who have much more experience than I do. I felt the need to jump in on this very interesting thread for a few reasons.
1.) I experienced this scenario last night against a team that is usually very competitive. We jumped out to a big lead and ended up winning 22-1. I called off the dogs in the fourth inning up 13-1. I felt that 12 runs was good enough to save our arms and get out of there in 5 innings. I felt this was reasonable. We stopped taking extra bases, and simply took what was given to us. I did not tell my guys to strike out on purpose, bunt back to the pitcher, or hit opposite handed. IMHO this is would be really showing up your opponent. I just emptied my bench in the 4th, let the kids take their at bats and went station to station on the bases. Not a very fun game to be a part of on either side.
2.) The minor debate people got into with age and being a head coach. I am 27 years old and in my 4th year coaching and 4th year as a head coach. I knew that if I wasn't able to play professionally I wanted to coach professionally from the time I was in middle school. I consider my "apprenticeship" as a coach what I learned from the excellent and not so excellent coaches I played under as a player. I felt that I was ready to be a head coach my first year. Don't get me wrong, I made mistakes and have learned a lot by experiencing, talking to other coaches, reading what is posted on this and other boards, and reading coaching and management books. I am without a doubt a FAR better coach today than I was four years ago and I hope to be a FAR better coach four years from now than I am today. I have learned some about skills, drills, hitting, situational baseball since I became a coach. Many of those things don't change over time and don't need major adjustments. Where I have really improved, and where any coach who takes his profession seriously really learns, is how to manage kids who have different needs, how to handle the "extra" things that pop up each year, how to make sure that you are improving from day to day and year to year, and how to conduct yourself as a professional who makes your players better people. One of the most overlooked things in coaching is reflection. Many times coaches focus on what their team did wrong. To me, the most important thing is what did I do wrong, and how can I change that to fix my teams issues.
So in a nutshell: Can a young person qualified to be a head coach? That totally depends on the person. We have a very young staff (27, 26, 25, 25, 22) and it varies so drastically, not in knowledge of the game, but in the way each young coach handles kids and conducts themselves in a professional manner. I totally understand why people would be gun-shy to hire a young inexperienced head coach. I am lucky to have been in a situation where an AD and principal took a chance on me.
Best of luck to everyone this season and let's keep up the good discussion.
BCRockets,
With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO
That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.
I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!
With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO
That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.
I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
BCRockets,
With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO
That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.
I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!
What he said
Coach Nicholas is 100 percent correct in that people should not "run up" the score for any reason. I don't care if there are 10 run rules or not. Baseball is the "greatest game on Earth." It is fun because it is mostly played in warm-weather and sunshine. It is fun because whether you are a player, manager, coach or fan, you are always thinking about the strategy and the game itself. Baseball's clock is your own enjoyment. I fail to see anyone's enjoyment when teams that are ahead by eight or 10 runs. When we are ahead by 10, my players are unhappy with the lack of a game. We don't run or bunt or suicide squeeze. We do, however, run hard from base to base on passed balls and wild pitches. We don't appreciate other teams running up the score when we have position players on the mound to chew up innings. Stealing bases ahead during games with insurmountable leads shows a tremendous disrespect for baseball.
Many people quote Bobby Bowden and other unprofessional comments that don't belong in baseball. I have no problem with people beating my brains in by 20 runs. Just make sure you swing the bats and run the bases hard. Stealing and bunting will only get players hurt. If the other team is ripping our pitching staff with doubles and triples in the gaps, well, then I tip my cap. But when you run knowing that the game is six outs away from being over, then you have no respect for baseball. If you are worried about a team coming back, well, then your team must not be that good to begin with. I have played, coached, umpired and managed at high levels for more than 40 years and I can only recall two instances where teams were down eight or ten with six outs to play came back and won the game.
The ten-run rule is not an excuse to act in an obnoxious manner. Swing the bats, play the game hard without stealing bases on backups and making a travesty of the great game of baseball. I don't care if people run the score up on me, but they will answer to me after the game. I don't retaliate because it is not baseball. It is another game coached by those who don't appreciate the work of others. For those who think that it is appropriate to run up the score, fine, please do so, but remember that there are great people out there who spent hours to make this game fun for all of us. Please don't ruin it by trying to show your fans that you know how to hit and run, steal, suicide squeeze to beat a team 15-1 instead of 9-1.
Many people quote Bobby Bowden and other unprofessional comments that don't belong in baseball. I have no problem with people beating my brains in by 20 runs. Just make sure you swing the bats and run the bases hard. Stealing and bunting will only get players hurt. If the other team is ripping our pitching staff with doubles and triples in the gaps, well, then I tip my cap. But when you run knowing that the game is six outs away from being over, then you have no respect for baseball. If you are worried about a team coming back, well, then your team must not be that good to begin with. I have played, coached, umpired and managed at high levels for more than 40 years and I can only recall two instances where teams were down eight or ten with six outs to play came back and won the game.
The ten-run rule is not an excuse to act in an obnoxious manner. Swing the bats, play the game hard without stealing bases on backups and making a travesty of the great game of baseball. I don't care if people run the score up on me, but they will answer to me after the game. I don't retaliate because it is not baseball. It is another game coached by those who don't appreciate the work of others. For those who think that it is appropriate to run up the score, fine, please do so, but remember that there are great people out there who spent hours to make this game fun for all of us. Please don't ruin it by trying to show your fans that you know how to hit and run, steal, suicide squeeze to beat a team 15-1 instead of 9-1.
BCRockets,
Not bad...not bad at all.
You mention self reflection versus thinking about what the team did wrong. That trait in itself says alot about you and will serve you well for many years to come, whether you remain in coaching or follow other pursuits. You'll also see your kids play better when they know every move they make isn't always being 2nd guessed (probably the number one problem I see with HS coaches).
You also mention handling players with different needs and making them better. That brings up number 2 problem I see in HS coaches...trying to cookie cut everybody into the same style of hitting, catching or whatever. Easy ( actually lazy) way to coach/teach...often not that successful. Sounds like you've got a handle on that as well.
Good luck this season. Hopefully, luck won't play that big a part.
Not bad...not bad at all.
You mention self reflection versus thinking about what the team did wrong. That trait in itself says alot about you and will serve you well for many years to come, whether you remain in coaching or follow other pursuits. You'll also see your kids play better when they know every move they make isn't always being 2nd guessed (probably the number one problem I see with HS coaches).
You also mention handling players with different needs and making them better. That brings up number 2 problem I see in HS coaches...trying to cookie cut everybody into the same style of hitting, catching or whatever. Easy ( actually lazy) way to coach/teach...often not that successful. Sounds like you've got a handle on that as well.
Good luck this season. Hopefully, luck won't play that big a part.
I have to say that in the past week that I have been gone with my team during spring break this thread has really taken off. Some great stuff and I plan on borrowing quite a bit of it for my team.
Coach B25 you might be awed by some people on here but with your last few posts I think you just moved yourself into the being awed status. That was some amazing stuff you put.
BCRockets I think you have a great future based on what you put. You are 100% right in the reflecting angle. I started out and made a ton of mistakes but I started thinking about why I was doing some things and realized it was wasted effort. I think I am a much better coach than I was when I first started out but it was because I took my lumps and learned from them. Hopefully in 10 more years I can take the lumps I am getting now and learn from them to be a better coach.
This week for my team became the practical reason why you go for the mercy rule. In our spring break games we played this one team who was atrocious and I mean atrocious. I actually felt sorry for this team but we had to play them three times. Later in the week we played two very solid teams ranked very high in South Carolina and North Carolina respectivley.
My number one pitcher is hurt and my number three pitcher was hurting and not at 100%. So now I got to play 3 games and use my pitching pool before I even get to the good teams. So what do I do to put my team in the best possible position for success at the end of the week - I went for the mercy rule and got it in two of the games. We beat them 14 - 4 and 12 - 2 in the first two games. In each game I used about 3 pitchers going about 2 innings each.
I got several things accomplished - I got my starters work in the field and at the plate. I got all my pitchers some "bullpen" work although it was during a real game. So I treated the two games like practice. I worked on hit and runs, steals and other situations. We didn't score the 10th mercy run until the 5th inning so it wasn't like we were killing them from inning one.
Now the reason why I treated it like a practice is my team has yet to practice or even step foot onto our field. The rain we have gotten this spring has made our field unplayable. My team is behind bigtime and these games were a way for us to try and get caught up.
We beat them with the mercy rule in the first two games and I felt pretty good of where my starters were by this point. The third game I played every single guy who had yet to get into the game. It was pretty much the weakest lineup I could have put onto the field. We got beat 4 - 1 and it was their first win of the season.
Did I do this because I felt sorry for the other team? No I did it because it gave my starters a chance to rest before we played the really good teams and my bench players who work their butt off in practices a chance to play. I could have very easily put my starters in to ensure a win but it would have cheated my bench players of their chance. The great thing is I think I can use some of those guys in specialty situations.
But my main goal was to beat them as quickly as possible to save my pitching since I was down two arms.
Coach B25 you might be awed by some people on here but with your last few posts I think you just moved yourself into the being awed status. That was some amazing stuff you put.
BCRockets I think you have a great future based on what you put. You are 100% right in the reflecting angle. I started out and made a ton of mistakes but I started thinking about why I was doing some things and realized it was wasted effort. I think I am a much better coach than I was when I first started out but it was because I took my lumps and learned from them. Hopefully in 10 more years I can take the lumps I am getting now and learn from them to be a better coach.
This week for my team became the practical reason why you go for the mercy rule. In our spring break games we played this one team who was atrocious and I mean atrocious. I actually felt sorry for this team but we had to play them three times. Later in the week we played two very solid teams ranked very high in South Carolina and North Carolina respectivley.
My number one pitcher is hurt and my number three pitcher was hurting and not at 100%. So now I got to play 3 games and use my pitching pool before I even get to the good teams. So what do I do to put my team in the best possible position for success at the end of the week - I went for the mercy rule and got it in two of the games. We beat them 14 - 4 and 12 - 2 in the first two games. In each game I used about 3 pitchers going about 2 innings each.
I got several things accomplished - I got my starters work in the field and at the plate. I got all my pitchers some "bullpen" work although it was during a real game. So I treated the two games like practice. I worked on hit and runs, steals and other situations. We didn't score the 10th mercy run until the 5th inning so it wasn't like we were killing them from inning one.
Now the reason why I treated it like a practice is my team has yet to practice or even step foot onto our field. The rain we have gotten this spring has made our field unplayable. My team is behind bigtime and these games were a way for us to try and get caught up.
We beat them with the mercy rule in the first two games and I felt pretty good of where my starters were by this point. The third game I played every single guy who had yet to get into the game. It was pretty much the weakest lineup I could have put onto the field. We got beat 4 - 1 and it was their first win of the season.
Did I do this because I felt sorry for the other team? No I did it because it gave my starters a chance to rest before we played the really good teams and my bench players who work their butt off in practices a chance to play. I could have very easily put my starters in to ensure a win but it would have cheated my bench players of their chance. The great thing is I think I can use some of those guys in specialty situations.
But my main goal was to beat them as quickly as possible to save my pitching since I was down two arms.
I think all the coaches who take time to post here are special people who really care about what they do.
Still haven’t received an answer to this question…
Not making any judgments as to right or wrong… I understand the reasons someone might want to end a game early at times. Not asking if it would bother you if someone else did it against you, I’m just curious as to whether any of the coaches who post here can remember ever putting the bunt on with an eight run lead.
Still haven’t received an answer to this question…
quote:Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?
Not making any judgments as to right or wrong… I understand the reasons someone might want to end a game early at times. Not asking if it would bother you if someone else did it against you, I’m just curious as to whether any of the coaches who post here can remember ever putting the bunt on with an eight run lead.
PG
With a 8 run lead and we are swinging the sticks well why sacrifice ?-- We trust that our team is in a groove with the bats and why give up an out---let the kids hit away---with an 8 run lead why worry about hitting into a DP--we don't think that we will --we think positive and that the batter will get a hit--if he doesn't , well, that is baseball
With a 8 run lead and we are swinging the sticks well why sacrifice ?-- We trust that our team is in a groove with the bats and why give up an out---let the kids hit away---with an 8 run lead why worry about hitting into a DP--we don't think that we will --we think positive and that the batter will get a hit--if he doesn't , well, that is baseball
PG,
to answer your question I have to say no to both situations. I want the mercy rule if we can get it because it does save me some arms but I am not going to bunt for it. I am of the same thinking as TR that if we have that big of a lead it's usually because we are swinging the bat well.
I don't bunt that much to begin with unless we are needing a run. I teach to swing the bat and hit the ball hard at any opportunity. We only bunt late in games that are close and we have to have a run or need an insurance run.
to answer your question I have to say no to both situations. I want the mercy rule if we can get it because it does save me some arms but I am not going to bunt for it. I am of the same thinking as TR that if we have that big of a lead it's usually because we are swinging the bat well.
I don't bunt that much to begin with unless we are needing a run. I teach to swing the bat and hit the ball hard at any opportunity. We only bunt late in games that are close and we have to have a run or need an insurance run.
PG, yes I've had a sac bunt be put down with an 8 run lead AND in the 5th inning. There were runners on 1st and 2nd and we were in a tournament. We advanced the runners and the next hitter ended the game. We has something to the effect of 9 games in 6 days and so, I had to think about pitching. Did I make it a habit? NO! I wouldn't have been mad at a coach for doing it to us. However, if they had the 10 run lead and were bunting for more then I probably would have. Every one knows what the spring is like. You might have to play every night and then play a double header on the weekend or play in a tournament. JMHO!
with mercy rule comes stuff like this. It is what it is but one thing I know it is not baseball.
You use the rules that you are playing under---if that includes a mercy rule you play to end the game as rapidly as is possible--especially in a tournament where you need to save arms
The mercy rule was put in for a reason. In our example from the other night, we did call off the dogs, but were not going to embarrass the other team by bunting back to the pitcher, striking out on purpose, etc. The final score was 22-1. What would have happened if we had played 7 full innings instead of 5? That game would have been a lot uglier.
Another situation that may be of interest happened to us on Saturday. We fall down 10-2 in the 4th. The team we were playing is not a team that uses the bunt a lot or steals a lot of bases, so it was hard for me to tell what the other coach's philosophy on the situation was, but I would have had no problem with them bunting, stealing etc. We ended up losing 13-12 and left the tying run on third base. A saying that I use a lot with our team is "you can't take anything for granted." We didn't take for granted that the game was over and it clearly wasn't at 10-2. I wouldn't expect us to take for granted that a game was over if we were up 10-2 in the 4th either.
Another situation that may be of interest happened to us on Saturday. We fall down 10-2 in the 4th. The team we were playing is not a team that uses the bunt a lot or steals a lot of bases, so it was hard for me to tell what the other coach's philosophy on the situation was, but I would have had no problem with them bunting, stealing etc. We ended up losing 13-12 and left the tying run on third base. A saying that I use a lot with our team is "you can't take anything for granted." We didn't take for granted that the game was over and it clearly wasn't at 10-2. I wouldn't expect us to take for granted that a game was over if we were up 10-2 in the 4th either.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
You use the rules that you are playing under---if that includes a mercy rule you play to end the game as rapidly as is possible--especially in a tournament where you need to save arms
I agree. We were leading 14-1 with temperatures at 46 degrees, wind blowing 30-40 mph (anyone know what the wind chill factors would be?) when a coach decided to bring in the cuts (they were told they would not get any playing time) and the reserves. They couldn't buy an out, letting the opposing team score 12 runs, 11 of those unearned. I think one inning lasted an hour.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I agree Will. I am only 27, but I guess I was taught the game by men who believed in old school baseball. I still do not know what I would do in a situation if I needed to protect arms, but didn't want to rub it in.
Nicholas25, I'm troubled by this sense or suggestion that because one doesn't agree with you, they are either ignorant or wasn't brought up on "OLD SCHOOL BASEBALL." When I played, back in the day, I don't remember any short game rule. About as "old school" as you could get is to lay a butt kicking on the other team. These new gentler and kinder rules are a product of today. In the cases where I've tried to end the game, the most repeated comment from the other team's coach was, "thanks!" Again, I'd suggest that instead of worrying about what the other team was going to do or doing, I'd concentrate my effort making sure that my team was coached to the best of my abilities. In the end, that is what counts not the score IF your intent is to better these players. Making a score 10 to nothing and disagreeing with Will here, isn't unsportsmanlike. What is is continuting to prolong that game when a team is beaten both physically and mentally. Of couse I'd suggest to you that things will change when someday you're the one making all of the decisions. BTW, if you don't like getting shortgamed, you'd better have a plan and expect anything BECAUSE if you do this for long, it'll happen to you again.
Here is an interesting sidebar regarding how some coaches think
Last fall we were in a tournamentb that used the "mercy rule"---we mercied the opponent but we still had one more arm we wanted throw what with all the scouts in attendance--we asked the opposing coach if he would mind batting one more inning so this kid could throw---his answer was a very terse " No way--we are out of here now !" We were not asking to bat again just wanting to give the arm some exposure
Conversely a few years back in Jupiter we were the visitors and lost 2-0 in agreat game---we asked the opposing coach if they would bat one more time so we could have a kid throw for the scouts----his answer was gentlemanly " No problem, Coach"
It takes all kinds !!!!
Last fall we were in a tournamentb that used the "mercy rule"---we mercied the opponent but we still had one more arm we wanted throw what with all the scouts in attendance--we asked the opposing coach if he would mind batting one more inning so this kid could throw---his answer was a very terse " No way--we are out of here now !" We were not asking to bat again just wanting to give the arm some exposure
Conversely a few years back in Jupiter we were the visitors and lost 2-0 in agreat game---we asked the opposing coach if they would bat one more time so we could have a kid throw for the scouts----his answer was gentlemanly " No problem, Coach"
It takes all kinds !!!!
This weekend at my son's 14U tournament the other team was up 9-1 in the fourth. There is a 10 runs after 5 rule in place and the other team squeezed to get a run home. Our coach went ballistic!! F-bombs, horse sh++, and every name in the book. After ranting and raving for 10 minutes he called time. My son was playing third and this is how the meeting went. Nothing but cussing and talk about how the other team was disrepecting the game and our team. He told the pitcher to throw over to first 10 times and then "stick it in the batter's ear".
Happily the pitcher didn't do it. He did throw to first 4 times in a row. All of this was caused by a coach losing his mind over a percieved insult about "how the game should be played."
Some of the parents started to get upset with the squeeze play but I talked to a few and told them the opposing coach was just trying to shorten the game and save some pitching and it cooled off in the stands.
We are through with that organization.
Happily the pitcher didn't do it. He did throw to first 4 times in a row. All of this was caused by a coach losing his mind over a percieved insult about "how the game should be played."
Some of the parents started to get upset with the squeeze play but I talked to a few and told them the opposing coach was just trying to shorten the game and save some pitching and it cooled off in the stands.
We are through with that organization.
Doughnutman, nice post. Had I been the coach, we would have been off of the stretch knowing that the winning run was on third. We would have had a defense called for the squeeze. You all know the options. It sounds to me like he was mad because he got caught with his pants down. Again, coach your team. Assume nothing! Don't expect for another team to quit playing the game because your squad isn't of the same caliber. Then, if you play every minute of every game like the game is on the line, you'll have a group of salty vets by the end of the year ready for anything. JMHO!
CoachB25
I am with you all the way---we would have been trying to stop the final run from scoring so that we would not be in the mercy situation---as far as we are concerned there is no lead that is insurmountable
I am with you all the way---we would have been trying to stop the final run from scoring so that we would not be in the mercy situation---as far as we are concerned there is no lead that is insurmountable
I believe and i'm sure other's also believe??
That if you disrespect the game! you will pay for it later?
What come's around goes around.
If there was a mercy rule in effect.
Then the opposing coach did the right thing for his team.
Get it over with as fast as possible.
There's No Disrespect at all Intended.
Just helping his team and saving arms.
EH
That if you disrespect the game! you will pay for it later?
What come's around goes around.
If there was a mercy rule in effect.
Then the opposing coach did the right thing for his team.
Get it over with as fast as possible.
There's No Disrespect at all Intended.
Just helping his team and saving arms.
EH
I'm going to go a different route and say I got showed up by a team using a squeeze play to end a game against me two years ago. Now that I think about it I am pretty ticked off because they went against the "unwritten rules" of having your cleanup hitter lay down a squeeze.
We were playing the best team in our region and happened to be one of the best teams in the state. They had 3 guys go DI and several others end up at JUCOs and smaller schools. They were stacked and very good.
Well here it is bottom of the 7th at their place and the winning run on third with like one out. Their clean up hitter (who is now at University of Louisville smashing bombs) is up. For just a second I thought there is no way they are going to squeeze here. It wouldn't be right for a clean up hitter to lay down a squeeze. So I played my corners somewhat back for a ground ball.
Well you know it - the runner broke for home and the clean up hitter laid down a perfect bunt and we couldn't get the out. Run scores - game over.
That was just wrong and never should have happened. That is bush league to have a guy who can hit it 400 feet to lay down a bunt.
Now hopefully people can read the sarcasm in this post as I intended it to be. Everything I said was true about the game and it happened just as I said it happened. I got out coached in this game because I didn't think they were going to run the squeeze.
If I was truly upset over something like this then I would be as irrational as someone getting upset over a mercy rule. You end the game in the way that helps your team the best. If you don't like the mercy rule then start a movement to eliminate it.
Other than that - take care of the things that you can control. You control your team and if you get killed by a better team then tip your hat and work on getting better instead of getting on here and complaining. You put something out there and pretty much nobody agrees with you. Now your mad. Get over it.
We were playing the best team in our region and happened to be one of the best teams in the state. They had 3 guys go DI and several others end up at JUCOs and smaller schools. They were stacked and very good.
Well here it is bottom of the 7th at their place and the winning run on third with like one out. Their clean up hitter (who is now at University of Louisville smashing bombs) is up. For just a second I thought there is no way they are going to squeeze here. It wouldn't be right for a clean up hitter to lay down a squeeze. So I played my corners somewhat back for a ground ball.
Well you know it - the runner broke for home and the clean up hitter laid down a perfect bunt and we couldn't get the out. Run scores - game over.
That was just wrong and never should have happened. That is bush league to have a guy who can hit it 400 feet to lay down a bunt.
Now hopefully people can read the sarcasm in this post as I intended it to be. Everything I said was true about the game and it happened just as I said it happened. I got out coached in this game because I didn't think they were going to run the squeeze.
If I was truly upset over something like this then I would be as irrational as someone getting upset over a mercy rule. You end the game in the way that helps your team the best. If you don't like the mercy rule then start a movement to eliminate it.
Other than that - take care of the things that you can control. You control your team and if you get killed by a better team then tip your hat and work on getting better instead of getting on here and complaining. You put something out there and pretty much nobody agrees with you. Now your mad. Get over it.
Coach
We had a similar thing happen with us but were the guys doing the bunting---we were down by a run in the last inning and needing 2 to win to move on in the tournament---our first two batters get on and we have first and second and no outs with our cleanup hitter up---it should be noted that he is 6ft 10 inches in height and 290 pounds and can hit a ball a country mile when he hits it--- we put the runners in motion and he drops a bunt and almost beats it out--but now we have second and third with one out-- the pitcher was so unnerved he uncorks two wild pitches and we win---unethical what we did ?- no way-- we wanted to make sure we got the runner to second and third with one out
Incidently the young went onto become a JUCO All American and now coaches with us and we still talk about that play
We had a similar thing happen with us but were the guys doing the bunting---we were down by a run in the last inning and needing 2 to win to move on in the tournament---our first two batters get on and we have first and second and no outs with our cleanup hitter up---it should be noted that he is 6ft 10 inches in height and 290 pounds and can hit a ball a country mile when he hits it--- we put the runners in motion and he drops a bunt and almost beats it out--but now we have second and third with one out-- the pitcher was so unnerved he uncorks two wild pitches and we win---unethical what we did ?- no way-- we wanted to make sure we got the runner to second and third with one out
Incidently the young went onto become a JUCO All American and now coaches with us and we still talk about that play
Guess I don't understand why people are jumping on Nicholas here. He states he doesn't know what he would do in a situation to end the game early to save pitching. That is the only situation that is in question here, near as I can tell.
Still don't know the exact situation in the original post. If it were the last inning, your team is leading by 8 runs and your hitting in the top of the seventh... Would anyone here bunt? You can't save pitching in that situation.
Anyway, IMO there is a time and place for many things. There are things that one person would call "bush" that in reality are simply playing the percentages.
Sometimes things just don't add up.
Tied up late in a game your hitter leads off the inning with a double. Depending on who's hitting next this is a definite bunt situation.
9 run lead late in the game your hitter leads off with a double. Seriously... How many here would bunt him to 3B rather than give three hitters a chance to drive him in?
"Other" than saving arms during a busy schedule or tournament, I just can't understand bunting with a big lead at anytime during a game. If a game is tied and a team scores 8 runs, I would never expect to see the 12th or 13th hitter of the inning lay one down.
That said, I don't think any coach should go ballistic or even get upset if this stuff happens. Often it's the guy making all the fuss that ends up looking "bush". Class is always on display!
Nicholas,
Keep in mind that there are a lot of Old School coaches who post here. Many of them have been very successful, even the old school coaches don't agree on everything. You have the main ingredient that we all share... A passion for the game! Good luck.
Still don't know the exact situation in the original post. If it were the last inning, your team is leading by 8 runs and your hitting in the top of the seventh... Would anyone here bunt? You can't save pitching in that situation.
Anyway, IMO there is a time and place for many things. There are things that one person would call "bush" that in reality are simply playing the percentages.
Sometimes things just don't add up.
Tied up late in a game your hitter leads off the inning with a double. Depending on who's hitting next this is a definite bunt situation.
9 run lead late in the game your hitter leads off with a double. Seriously... How many here would bunt him to 3B rather than give three hitters a chance to drive him in?
"Other" than saving arms during a busy schedule or tournament, I just can't understand bunting with a big lead at anytime during a game. If a game is tied and a team scores 8 runs, I would never expect to see the 12th or 13th hitter of the inning lay one down.
That said, I don't think any coach should go ballistic or even get upset if this stuff happens. Often it's the guy making all the fuss that ends up looking "bush". Class is always on display!
Nicholas,
Keep in mind that there are a lot of Old School coaches who post here. Many of them have been very successful, even the old school coaches don't agree on everything. You have the main ingredient that we all share... A passion for the game! Good luck.
quote:
Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?
No. We pay lots of money for those bats so we can swing 'em.
Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?
No. We pay lots of money for those bats so we can swing 'em.
Nicholas25, it seems to me that you are just upset(whining) that your team got beat that badly. I don't think it is right for you to judge how other coaches coach their team. Now, if the coach is directing his kids to do something like hit your batters, spike our players, things that will injure them, then I say yes that would upset me. I am not sure how what the other coach did injured your kids?? Are you saying it hurt them mentally by doing this? There is no written or unwritten rule that says, "you are not allowed to steal while ahead by 8 runs late in a game." That is ridiculous. Now I will say that as a head coach, I wouldn't have probably done what the other coach did, but I certainly wouldn't be judging him on that. Just because that isn't my pholosophy doesn't mean it is right or the only way. I would be focusing ONLY on my kids and what WE can control. We can't control or change what the other team or coach is doing. When we start focusing on all of those things like umpires, weather conditions or what the other coach is doing, then we aren't improving as a team. My 2 cents.
Coach W
Coach W
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I want to state again, that I am not the type of coach who whines about a game. I just have a passion for the game and want to see it taught the right way.
That's fine but being taught the game the right way means what to do with the ball when it's hit to you, moving runners in certain situations etc... These unwritten rules you post are just opinions of an individual.
It's not a coach's job to make his team pull back because the other team sucks. It's the other team's coach's job to prepare his players so they don't get smacked around. Besides, a lot of these pastings happen because the losing team can't get out of it's own way and without even trying to play a bit over-agressive, the team who's piling up runs most likely are doing it at will.
Besides, if a team with a big lead decides to empty his bench and play the subs, why should they come into the game handcuffed because of this so-called 'unwritten rule'. For the subs, it might be their only game experience they get and it isn't right for them to play dumbed down baseball when they get their limited opportunities.
FWIW I thought about this thread today in the 3rd base coaches box.
Long story, but I had to coach a 10a JV game today and be at our varsity game by 12p. We were up 9-0 in the bottom of 5 with a runner at second and two out (ummm...they weren't holding the runner close). I had the kid steal third, hitter drives in run with a single hit right at LF, game over. I make it to varsity game just in time to get our pitcher to the pen.
I told the opposing coach the situation earlier and he understood. We were the better team by far. I stole to end the game. I'll be sleeping well tonight.
Long story, but I had to coach a 10a JV game today and be at our varsity game by 12p. We were up 9-0 in the bottom of 5 with a runner at second and two out (ummm...they weren't holding the runner close). I had the kid steal third, hitter drives in run with a single hit right at LF, game over. I make it to varsity game just in time to get our pitcher to the pen.
I told the opposing coach the situation earlier and he understood. We were the better team by far. I stole to end the game. I'll be sleeping well tonight.
ironhorse
Well said---the key is that you discussed it with the opposing coach so he knew you were not rubbing his nose in it--I hate the mercy rule but if it is there I will use as well as I can---the other team can do the same---
Well said---the key is that you discussed it with the opposing coach so he knew you were not rubbing his nose in it--I hate the mercy rule but if it is there I will use as well as I can---the other team can do the same---
with the mercy rule I dont think any discussion with piling it on is valid. You also have the rentry. Now you are up 9 in the 4th you sub. all of a sudden the other team comes back and makes it say 9-8. You take the subs out renter your starters. Not exactly baseball but that is the way the game is played today.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I was talking about sac. bunting, hitting and running, and stealing bags with a big lead late. I did not say you quit trying to score, you just don't try to squeeze runs across like you would in a tight game late.
Maybe you don't play the same way in a close game compared to a blowout but if a team chooses to play that way, that's their choice and you should just live with it and move on and not complain or worry about it but just play your game.
Also, with a mercy rule, you try to save your arms by getting the game over as quick as possible so these so called unwritten rules can't apply since no mercy changes the whole game.
Perhaps the worst 'written' rule is the no mercy. Play out the game and you'll see less squeezing of runs with big leads. If you got an 8-run lead and you can bunt 2 runners in scoring position possibly end the game on one swing, you do it, try to get out of there and spare your pitchers for a game they will be needed more. Especially in high school where overextending reliable pitchers is the norm.
What team did this to you?
I know your schedule and it was probably a team that is a rival. All of baseball unwritten rules are thrown out when playing teams with a history. Rivalries do not count in unwritten rules.
I know your schedule and it was probably a team that is a rival. All of baseball unwritten rules are thrown out when playing teams with a history. Rivalries do not count in unwritten rules.
sports are about competing. If you werent competing to win then what was the point. a win is a win no matter the score. the game should be played hard and aggresively until the final out of the game. I've been on both end of the bat as a coach and player. you never let up and you'll never surrender. my 2 cents.
I was in a situation in a World Series event. We are beating a team 8-o in the second. Our guys are still stretching base hit into doubles. The other teams is good but we are just hitting. We had a runner on first and our batter gets a base hit. The third baseman and shortstop to the mound without calling time out. Our runners take the base.
The coach is giving me grief. I told him I did not send them. He tells me my players should know better. I tell him his should know better to call time out. Plus I tell him my pitcher can lose it at any moment. Mind you, this team was actually very good. Well, two inning later the score was 10-7. I knew my pitcher and this team. The final score was 14-9. If I would have slowed down I could have lost.
In the same world series. We went up 4-0 on a team in the first and decided to not to bunt or steal from that point because I knew the game was going to get out of hand later. It would depend on the situationof each game.
I all my years coaching I have never worried about what the other team did as I can't control that. I coach my kids the best I can to make sure they are prepared. It is not the other team fault if we can't execute. They should be able to coach their team how the see fit. Who am I to tell them not to steal or bunt? As I tell me players, if you don't want to get rung up on a bad called third strike....don't get to strike two. If you don't want to them to run or bunt with a 8 run lead don't give up the eight runs.
The coach is giving me grief. I told him I did not send them. He tells me my players should know better. I tell him his should know better to call time out. Plus I tell him my pitcher can lose it at any moment. Mind you, this team was actually very good. Well, two inning later the score was 10-7. I knew my pitcher and this team. The final score was 14-9. If I would have slowed down I could have lost.
In the same world series. We went up 4-0 on a team in the first and decided to not to bunt or steal from that point because I knew the game was going to get out of hand later. It would depend on the situationof each game.
I all my years coaching I have never worried about what the other team did as I can't control that. I coach my kids the best I can to make sure they are prepared. It is not the other team fault if we can't execute. They should be able to coach their team how the see fit. Who am I to tell them not to steal or bunt? As I tell me players, if you don't want to get rung up on a bad called third strike....don't get to strike two. If you don't want to them to run or bunt with a 8 run lead don't give up the eight runs.
quote:Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men. Colossians 3:23 (HOLMAN CHRISTIAN STANDARD BIBLE)
Perhaps the other coach read this before the game!
quote:Who am I to tell them not to steal or bunt?
well today with the 10 run rule it is not too much of an issue. Back when they played baseball u know no dh no re entry no mercy rule there was a little bad blood when teams ran it up. it is easy to say but when you are on the other end of it it is not pleasant. years ago i watched a high school game where a coach suicide squeezed leading by 10 runs. Double stealing etc etc. why ?
Nicholas, I learned a long time ago that the only thing you can control is you. Don't worry about what the other coach did. Control your emotions and learn and teach with every play. You learned to look for that bunt. Study the game, situations, technigues etc etc. If you do it right the winning comes. Baseball is a very complex game and there is always something to learn. If you don't expect help from anyone you will be in the game.
if my team is up by 15 runs we stop everything. My little league team i coached was losing 22-2 and the other team was stealing...now that is bush league, a 20 run lead is different than an 8 run lead.
Coming from a high school coach I know your frustration. My first question is how do you define late in the game? My next question is what do you know about the team and their circumstances, (i.e. were they out of pitching) My one comment is 8 runs has now been replaced by 10 runs. In my 2nd year as a coach our section istitued a 10 run rule mercy and then pulled it 2 years later. When asked all coaches said they would still shoot for 10 runs.
Nicholas25,
I don’t think you were quite understanding what everyone was trying very hard to tell you in a diplomatic manner. What your understanding is of the way the game should be played, and what’s right and wrong, is not the mainstream understanding. That doesn’t mean your wrong, but that the majority of people who would read and respond to this thread, don’t agree with you, or the way you were taught.
Take a look at how many views this thread received. Almost 4,000. Ask yourself why such a tremendously high number of views would not produce anyone who would take up your cause? Had you made the same post on a board that was basically for 12U players, I suspect the response would have been very different indeed.
I don’t think you were quite understanding what everyone was trying very hard to tell you in a diplomatic manner. What your understanding is of the way the game should be played, and what’s right and wrong, is not the mainstream understanding. That doesn’t mean your wrong, but that the majority of people who would read and respond to this thread, don’t agree with you, or the way you were taught.
Take a look at how many views this thread received. Almost 4,000. Ask yourself why such a tremendously high number of views would not produce anyone who would take up your cause? Had you made the same post on a board that was basically for 12U players, I suspect the response would have been very different indeed.
