Play hard and play smart
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I'm sorry, but I consider it your problem and not theirs that you were down 9-1. I understand where you're coming from, but look at it from their perspective.. when do you get game situations where you can practice stuff?? It can't be practiced in practice because you don't have the game situation.
I was taught the scoreboard doesn't dictate the way you play the game.
I was taught the scoreboard doesn't dictate the way you play the game.
An 8 run lead is no time for mercy---I have to say coach at that point you can still pull it out===the onus is on you---is your team so bad they cannot make up 8 runs?
They were not showing you up at all--they were striving to make sure you did not get back up off the mat!!!
They were not showing you up at all--they were striving to make sure you did not get back up off the mat!!!
quote:Am I way out of line? Do any of you think along the same lines as I do?
Yep....Worry about your own team, not how the other coach chooses to run his team and and go back and fix whatever it is that made your team get pasted.
Make your team better.
Who was bunting and stealing? Starters? Backups that need the experience? 8 runs isn't an insurmountable lead in hs ball.
And I never take my foot of the gas till we hit the 10-run rule mark, for pitching purposes if nothing else.
Who was bunting and stealing? Starters? Backups that need the experience? 8 runs isn't an insurmountable lead in hs ball.
And I never take my foot of the gas till we hit the 10-run rule mark, for pitching purposes if nothing else.
i ease up depending on team..10 i quit running and bunting..12 usually stop being aggressive.
I believe it was Whitey Herzog back in the 80's who said,"When they stop hitting home runs, I'll stop running."
Now this was pro ball, but if you are playing a good team, as soon as you let up, the players let up, and next thing you know you have a 2 run lead or you are behind.
Take it as a compliment that they didn't want to give your team a chance to come back. It is a different way to look at it, but I would say they respected your team too much to let up.
Now this was pro ball, but if you are playing a good team, as soon as you let up, the players let up, and next thing you know you have a 2 run lead or you are behind.
Take it as a compliment that they didn't want to give your team a chance to come back. It is a different way to look at it, but I would say they respected your team too much to let up.
Nicholas25...I understand that if you were taught that way, then we might expect you to react the same way. Understandable.
But I'm with the others. Worry about your own club and getting better. If the other team was standing there calling your team losers and bums, then that is one thing. If they were playing the game within the rules, then you gotta suck it up man.
Are you sure your reaction isn't emotional due to a good butt spanking?
But I'm with the others. Worry about your own club and getting better. If the other team was standing there calling your team losers and bums, then that is one thing. If they were playing the game within the rules, then you gotta suck it up man.
Are you sure your reaction isn't emotional due to a good butt spanking?
local middle school scored 15 runs in first inning. Coach was flumoxed as to what to do. He slowed down the game after the 5th run scored. He asked the umpires what to do with out insulting the other team. (They called the game at 3 1/2 innings.) (Team was clearly out of its league. our side was cheering for them - they seemed like a group of good kids.)
Some of the things I've heard suggested is to bunt, bat from the other side, slow the runners down. 9 runs isn't a lot. Maybe the other coach thought you were strong enough to come back. I've seen it done - been on both ends.
Some of the things I've heard suggested is to bunt, bat from the other side, slow the runners down. 9 runs isn't a lot. Maybe the other coach thought you were strong enough to come back. I've seen it done - been on both ends.
as someone said above, 8 runs is not that insurmountable. pitchers could change, etc. maybe in the last inning, but not in the 6th. I wouldn't consider it before it was 10 runs.
and i agree, the coach may have been showing you some respect, thinking you could've come back. apparently, you didn't agree with him..
thinking back, this happened to our team when we were eleven. we were getting crushed. we lost 19-0. the other team was bunting. I was livid. but 19-0 at age 11 is a little different..
and i agree, the coach may have been showing you some respect, thinking you could've come back. apparently, you didn't agree with him..
thinking back, this happened to our team when we were eleven. we were getting crushed. we lost 19-0. the other team was bunting. I was livid. but 19-0 at age 11 is a little different..
My point is that if I'm up by 8 in the 6th and if I push 2 more runs across the game is over (mercy rule - 10 after 5) then my kid at 70 pitches doesn't have to go back out and I don't have to burn another pitcher because I have a game tomorrow and one on Monday I'll squeeze the last sonofabitch home. I'll explain it to you afterwards, but I'll do it and sleep fine.
I've seen 9 runs scored in a 1/2 inning between 2 good varsity teams. It's hs baseball. Get better.
I've seen 9 runs scored in a 1/2 inning between 2 good varsity teams. It's hs baseball. Get better.
Amen ironhorse - you said it best. Get the game over with as quickly as possible. I say go for 12 runs so you can have a couple to play with. 9 - 1 is not a bad score and is not impossible to come back on.
Look your upset and ticked off and it's understandable but you cannot control what the other team does. Control what you can control. Make your team better.
Each time you say that the other team is bush league to your players you send the wrong message. They are now given an excuse for why they got beat - the other team is jerks.
Put the responsibility back on your kids. They messed up so they have to get better.
You want to let up after 8 run lead then that is your choice but who's fault is it if the other team comes back on you? Either way - up or down - your team allowed the other team to score 8 runs on you.
Look your upset and ticked off and it's understandable but you cannot control what the other team does. Control what you can control. Make your team better.
Each time you say that the other team is bush league to your players you send the wrong message. They are now given an excuse for why they got beat - the other team is jerks.
Put the responsibility back on your kids. They messed up so they have to get better.
You want to let up after 8 run lead then that is your choice but who's fault is it if the other team comes back on you? Either way - up or down - your team allowed the other team to score 8 runs on you.
If you are talking High School Federation rules and the pitcher's innings are limited, then try and get the game over with as soon as possible, and however you feel you can do it. I just don't see how what the other team does (swing away, sac bunt, steal, whatever), should have any impact on how you feel. Sorry.
Nicholas25,
I understand where your coming from and believe that when a team is way ahead you should call the dogs off to a certain degree. That being said I don't think 8 runs is that big of a lead. Two weeks ago my sons team was losing 7 to 0 going into the last inning. After a three run shot and a solo shot, then before you new it the game ended in a 7-7 tie. Teams will also bunt, steal and squeeze to get those last 2 runs so they can get to the ten run rule and save their pitching.
JMO
Banditsbb
I understand where your coming from and believe that when a team is way ahead you should call the dogs off to a certain degree. That being said I don't think 8 runs is that big of a lead. Two weeks ago my sons team was losing 7 to 0 going into the last inning. After a three run shot and a solo shot, then before you new it the game ended in a 7-7 tie. Teams will also bunt, steal and squeeze to get those last 2 runs so they can get to the ten run rule and save their pitching.
JMO
Banditsbb
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25: In fact, I have never been around a genuine baseball man, who doesn't understand the unwritten rules and codes of the game. When you are up by a bunch late, just play the game, don't try to squeeze them across.
No offense, but since in another thread you were saying that even though it's your first year coaching you think you're qualified and ready to be a head coach, statements like this tell me your not.
Get some experience and then revisit some of these topics.
Nicholas25
Just a word or two of advice from an old warhorse---loose the idealistic approach if you want to last in this game--- idealism does not lead to success
Just a word or two of advice from an old warhorse---loose the idealistic approach if you want to last in this game--- idealism does not lead to success
A couple of comments:
1) They were probably trying to get to +10 for the mercy rule and end the debacle.
2) Based on the way you guys played, you should be happy for them to GIVE you outs via the bunt.
3) Why is +8 the magic number? Personally, I will call off the dogs when we are +11 but not before then. If you want to complain, get someone out.
1) They were probably trying to get to +10 for the mercy rule and end the debacle.
2) Based on the way you guys played, you should be happy for them to GIVE you outs via the bunt.
3) Why is +8 the magic number? Personally, I will call off the dogs when we are +11 but not before then. If you want to complain, get someone out.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
Brother, you have never seen me organize and run a practice, teach a fundamental skill, motivate a player, make a strategic move, or do anything to benefit a baseball program.
No I haven't. My point is there is more to it than just those things. Such as when to be idealistic and when to be realistic. I don't mean any offense by that. I've been in your shoes.
I still say you would be best served by working under a "genuine baseball man" for a few years. Being a player, knowing the game, and being a successful coach are vastly different skill sets.
ps - I bet the butler coach wasn't made HC his first year in coaching. There's a reason why.
If you coach long enough you will lose and win a game that you were up or down 8 in the 6th inning.
quote:
Some of the things I've heard suggested is to bunt, bat from the other side, slow the runners down. 9 runs isn't a lot. Maybe the other coach thought you were strong enough to come back. I've seen it done - been on both ends.
Gimmicks like batting from the opposite side is much more insulting and rubbing it into the face of the losers. Play it straight up.
Slowing down the runners is fine as long as teams aren't slowing it down so much like if a batter hits a gap shot to the fence and only takes a single when it was a legit double.
quote:Am I way out of line? Do any of you think along the same lines as I do?
You asked a question about how people felt in a certain situation and now people have responded how they felt. You got answers you didn't want to hear and now you are telling us we got you wrong.
No offense but you aren't ready to be a head coach. There is so much more to it than making out a line up card, creating / executing a practice schedule or running drills. This stuff is easy compared to the rest of it.
Nobody says you have to like losing but you have to learn how to handle it.
THe other night we got mercy ruled and it was just like how you explained your game. We played very ugly. My guys started complaining that the other team was stealing and stuff. I just told them if you don't like then get them out. It wasn't the other team's fault we played terrible.
Remember this - it's not the score you should be embarassed by but the performance of your team. One of them you can control - the other you cannot.
I am taking much of this response from a previous post of mine........an 8 run lead in HS baseball is not BUSH.......and it isnt BUSH in college ball either....
I have umpired many of these types of games and I am a firm believer in playing the game out. There are rules to cover lopsided games.
The object of baseball is to score more runs than your opponent. Play the game hard until such time as the rules end the game.
(In PA it is 15 runs after 3 innings, 10 runs after 5.)
Too many times in my career I have seen injury come about when players pull up or take it easy, or bat from the other side of the plate, or play positions that they normally dont play. I feel the risk or the fun is just not worth it....
Now, once the run rule is reached, I am not saying you should continue to hit and run, steal or be super agressive on the basepaths, but just play the game.........
To me, this is an opportunity to play your team members who wouldnt normally get to.....get the score you need, and then substitute.....the game is served, players get game time, coaches get to see next years team in action while garnering real varsity experience....
In many cases, the coaches will come and ask that I call "lots of strikes"..........I understand that thought but cant bring myself to do it. 2 reasons....one I just cant call a ball a strike...personal hangup.....not in my makeup.......and 2 it screws up my zone.......I have worked for years to develop what I call a consistent zone and by wavering I find that its harder to concentrate on my zone in the next game.
As a coach you will see your team come back from a large deficit to win and you will feel different.....or you are going to get your jock handed to you 22-0 and really know what bush is.......an 8 run lead isnt ....
just my .02
I have umpired many of these types of games and I am a firm believer in playing the game out. There are rules to cover lopsided games.
The object of baseball is to score more runs than your opponent. Play the game hard until such time as the rules end the game.
(In PA it is 15 runs after 3 innings, 10 runs after 5.)
Too many times in my career I have seen injury come about when players pull up or take it easy, or bat from the other side of the plate, or play positions that they normally dont play. I feel the risk or the fun is just not worth it....
Now, once the run rule is reached, I am not saying you should continue to hit and run, steal or be super agressive on the basepaths, but just play the game.........
To me, this is an opportunity to play your team members who wouldnt normally get to.....get the score you need, and then substitute.....the game is served, players get game time, coaches get to see next years team in action while garnering real varsity experience....
In many cases, the coaches will come and ask that I call "lots of strikes"..........I understand that thought but cant bring myself to do it. 2 reasons....one I just cant call a ball a strike...personal hangup.....not in my makeup.......and 2 it screws up my zone.......I have worked for years to develop what I call a consistent zone and by wavering I find that its harder to concentrate on my zone in the next game.
As a coach you will see your team come back from a large deficit to win and you will feel different.....or you are going to get your jock handed to you 22-0 and really know what bush is.......an 8 run lead isnt ....
just my .02
Sorry to take so long to get back with you but we have had a pretty heavy schedule this week.
The "other" stuff really isn't easy to describe. It's the stuff that goes on that you really can't prepare for and nobody ever tells you about. It's something you just have to go through and experience.
To be honest with you I believe I was just like you 10 years ago - idealistic and have all the answers. I came to a place that had a horrible history in baseball and I was about 24 years old. I knew I would come in and change everything because I had all the answers. I thought everyone would love me and we would become a great baseball school.
I was an idiot - a complete moronic idiot.
Now I'm not saying that is how you are but you have projected an image through your posts that you know more than the head coach or would put in a better effort than the head coach. That might be the case but this is still a guy who has went through the "other stuff" and earned his leeway.
Basically the other stuff is....
balancing the egos of parents and players
dealing with the paperwork
working the umps
networking with other coaches
There is a bunch more stuff but I can't really describe it and I feel it's something you have to go through to understand what I am talking about. Maybe one of the other coaches can explain it better what I am talking about.
The "other" stuff really isn't easy to describe. It's the stuff that goes on that you really can't prepare for and nobody ever tells you about. It's something you just have to go through and experience.
To be honest with you I believe I was just like you 10 years ago - idealistic and have all the answers. I came to a place that had a horrible history in baseball and I was about 24 years old. I knew I would come in and change everything because I had all the answers. I thought everyone would love me and we would become a great baseball school.
I was an idiot - a complete moronic idiot.
Now I'm not saying that is how you are but you have projected an image through your posts that you know more than the head coach or would put in a better effort than the head coach. That might be the case but this is still a guy who has went through the "other stuff" and earned his leeway.
Basically the other stuff is....
balancing the egos of parents and players
dealing with the paperwork
working the umps
networking with other coaches
There is a bunch more stuff but I can't really describe it and I feel it's something you have to go through to understand what I am talking about. Maybe one of the other coaches can explain it better what I am talking about.
Back in the day when they did not have the 15 and 10 run rule as they have today in high school most coaches adhered to the as they say unwritten rule. But say today there is a 15 run rule after say 3 innings and a 10 run rule after 5 why not go the extra mile get the runs and go home. Less innings your guys have to pitch. Just a thought. It is not baseball but that is what those that make the rules have made the game today. As an old timer it is ugly but there is a reason.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nicholas25:
[QUOTE]
Will pray for you.
If your team is playing many others (ie. 99%) and
if any are ahead by 8 runs in the 3rd/4th inning, yes, several will pray for you after they bury you!
You team may never resurrect!
Mercy rule / guidelines in HS are debated at the beginning of the year. It typically becomes an umpire nightmare (who want more $$$). May you never find a mercy rule at D-1 colleges.
A seven run lead with metal is NOT safe anymore.
Lastly, no mercy rule enables teams to get players PT.
Peace
postscript: For those that have been on both sides, you know what this message is. For those that have only been on one side, and for a while (i.e Terps),
walking out to the bus, thru the oppositions battle space, and the trip home is........ humbling.) For those that have never seen or heard about the other side,...........you are long overdue!
[QUOTE]
Will pray for you.
If your team is playing many others (ie. 99%) and
if any are ahead by 8 runs in the 3rd/4th inning, yes, several will pray for you after they bury you!
You team may never resurrect!
Mercy rule / guidelines in HS are debated at the beginning of the year. It typically becomes an umpire nightmare (who want more $$$). May you never find a mercy rule at D-1 colleges.
A seven run lead with metal is NOT safe anymore.
Lastly, no mercy rule enables teams to get players PT.
Peace
postscript: For those that have been on both sides, you know what this message is. For those that have only been on one side, and for a while (i.e Terps),
walking out to the bus, thru the oppositions battle space, and the trip home is........ humbling.) For those that have never seen or heard about the other side,...........you are long overdue!
. Many years ago we got really smacked and the other team rubbed in real good. the next year the shoe was on the other foot. We were ahead by a bunch. I made my substitutions.(no reentry or mercy rule back then) I did not steal or bunt but I did not hold runners at third. If they could score I waved them in. Upon scoring a run one of the coaches yelled whats the matter did we not have enough runs. I calmly replied I have a good memory what goes around comes around. End of story
Here are a couple of things that you need to consider.
1. Do you think your team should have been able to compete with the other team, or were they that much better than you?
2. Were they executing these plays well or was your team struggling defensively?
3. When they were ahead by 8, were you still trying to win the game? Would you bunt and steal in order to get back in the game?
Personally, if we can end a game in 5 we will. I like to stay up by ten. We will steal or hit and run in order to stay out of a double play. Things also depend on our opponent. If we feel like we are that much stronger than our opponent and do not feel a threat, we will call off the dogs earlier. If we feel we are playing a strong team, we will do all we can to put them away early. That is respect for the game and your opponent. Do not let your players learn to let down in life when things go their way or they will not know what to do when things do not. That does not mean you should not show class. Running a squeeze play, or stealing against a weak opponent when up by a very large margin is not class, but it does not sound like you were a weak opponent in this case. I could be wrong.
1. Do you think your team should have been able to compete with the other team, or were they that much better than you?
2. Were they executing these plays well or was your team struggling defensively?
3. When they were ahead by 8, were you still trying to win the game? Would you bunt and steal in order to get back in the game?
Personally, if we can end a game in 5 we will. I like to stay up by ten. We will steal or hit and run in order to stay out of a double play. Things also depend on our opponent. If we feel like we are that much stronger than our opponent and do not feel a threat, we will call off the dogs earlier. If we feel we are playing a strong team, we will do all we can to put them away early. That is respect for the game and your opponent. Do not let your players learn to let down in life when things go their way or they will not know what to do when things do not. That does not mean you should not show class. Running a squeeze play, or stealing against a weak opponent when up by a very large margin is not class, but it does not sound like you were a weak opponent in this case. I could be wrong.
In baseball particularly sometimes good teams have as they say one of those days. Pitcher cant find the strike zone everything the other team hits finds a hole. so sometimes weakness is not an issue
quote:HSBBWeb Old Timer
Nicholas25,
I agree with Will that all teams can have one of those days. It sounds like that was the case for your team, tip your hat to the opponent and focus on preventing the things they did that you were not able to stop. When a bad team has a bad day everyone in the park knows it and you coach a little differently against that situation. That does not occur very often. Keep track when your team loses a game and you will usually see it is in one inning that the game takes a turn. If you lay down with a lead, you will be the coach giving the "if we play each inning with our best effort..." speech! Good luck to you, most coaches are good people, the one's that aren't will be very easy to spot; they will be the one's that lack success and class with the players, parents, and total program. These are things you will learn as you go along. This site is a good place to come and ask questions as well as share ideas.
I try to end the game as soon as I can, anything can happen in h.s. baseball.
As an example, last season we were up on team by 9 runs after 5. The opposing coach wanted to know if we wanted to call it (they are from a neighboring state that plays an 8 run rule). I suggested we continue, saying something like "the way your guys hit, coach, you're never out of it". Sure enough, they came back and beat us....and the team I was coaching won 30 games last season!
That's why I always stay agressive until I have no doubt it's over. To me there is absolutely no shame in sac bunting or stealing the game-ending/winning run into scoring position.
But I will admit there is a fine line between assuring yourself a win and running it up. I think it was Bobby Bowden that told Lou Holtz once.."Coach, it's not my job to keep my guys out of your end zone!".
As an example, last season we were up on team by 9 runs after 5. The opposing coach wanted to know if we wanted to call it (they are from a neighboring state that plays an 8 run rule). I suggested we continue, saying something like "the way your guys hit, coach, you're never out of it". Sure enough, they came back and beat us....and the team I was coaching won 30 games last season!
That's why I always stay agressive until I have no doubt it's over. To me there is absolutely no shame in sac bunting or stealing the game-ending/winning run into scoring position.
But I will admit there is a fine line between assuring yourself a win and running it up. I think it was Bobby Bowden that told Lou Holtz once.."Coach, it's not my job to keep my guys out of your end zone!".
I would probably call the dogs off around 11 or 12 runs up. You keep mentioning basketball and football but these are different sports where there is no mercy rule to stop a game and save a pitcher for either a tournament game or maybe for a conference game two days later. I agree you should probably stop fullcourt pressing up 30 pts with 2 minutes left because there is no mercy rule and obviously you have won the game. Yes, throwing a deep bomb with 2 minutes left in the fooball game up by 42 pts is probably bush because once again there is no mercy rule and you could just run the ball. An 8 run lead in the fifth inning or late in the game is not a given and if you can end it right now then there is no reason you shouldnt do that. Now if it was 17-0 and they were doing that then you may have a case. Just my two cents. I hope you have a good season.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I realize I am in the minority with my views (at least on this site), and we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks guys for all of your replys.
hahaha...so you ask a question and don't get the answer you were looking for and you agree to disagree? Too funny.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
No Way Guys, we take full responsibility for our play. We do not allow excuses! Yesterday in practice the players hopefully learned a lesson, and payed a price for not showing up to play.
Nicholas, I'm an old veteran of the game. I've been in a few hundred wins (600+) and only about 150-200 losses. So, I hope that you think I've been around some. I've coached baseball in this country and was once honored to represent our country abroad in both Lithuania and Russia. You keep saying that you want to make sure that the game is taught right. Right in who's estimation? Who's unwritten rules are you going by? Who made you the judge on all of this? You have some great baseball people in this thread. I read some of their responses both in this thread and elsewhere on this site and to be honest, they have given you very sound advice. I don't want to offend any of them by leaving their names out but Will, Redbird et. al. have no stake in this and they have stated that this rule of 8 and no bunting and no stealing isn't an UNWRITTEN RULE. Heck, the advice to worry about your team is great advice. You don't have any control over the opponent. Control what you do. You can take a situation like this and make it what you want. My bet, and agreeing with the others, is that they wanted to short game you so that it would end. They'd save thier pitcher's arm and they'd get their players home. More than once or twice I've done this and no one has ever said a word. Now, if it were a larger lead and we had the game won, then, that might have been different.
Nicholas, I used the above quote from the first page and wanted to address this. So, are you suggesting that you punished these kids? That is what I take out of this. So, did you do baseball which they sorely need or did you run them? Did you run them telling them how much heart they lacked, how they backed off and how they are losers? Nicholas, I hope you didn't. If so, what you proved is that you took a bunch of guys that have limited skills and wasted a day when they could get better by replacing it with a day where you made them hate baseball. I'd appreciate knowing but really, that's ok. Nicholas, I've done this for a long time as I've said, don't assume that because people don't agree with you that they are wrong and don't know baseball. Use these resources to improve. Don't take it all personal. You have a lot of people here that have been there and done that. Believe me, I'm in awe of a few in this thred. Take care!
Ironhorse, great comment on page 1.
quote:We played terrible yesterday, struggled in every aspect of the game. We were down 9-1 late in the game What inning? and the opposing team sac. bunted twice, Did these result in two outs? and stole bases! I was furious! I was taught that if you were up by 8 or more late in the game How late in the game? you quit putting runners in motion, and held runners when they get to third base. I do note see a reason to sac. bunt late in the game when you are up by 8 or more. Neither can I! I consider this bush league. As someone who loves the game, and loves to see it taught the right way, this frustrates me. You would think a high school head coach would understand the unwritten rules of the game.
A couple other things I'd like to know about this situation aside from those in red above. Did the opponents have reserves in the game at that time? Once again, how late in the game? Last inning?
I also have a question for all the coaches posting here. Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?
I have coached well over a thousand games and honestly can not ever remember once putting on a sac bunt with an 8 run lead. I have continued to run with an 8 run lead, though.
I think it's embarrassing to give a player the bunt sign with an 8 run lead. Please do not take this as not wanting to score or end the game early.
I do understand the value in ending the game early if possible, just would rather do it without bunting. I'm guessing that most of you guys posting here would not give the bunt sign with an 8 run lead. Maybe I'm wrong!
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
No Way Guys, we take full responsibility for our play. We do not allow excuses! Yesterday in practice the players hopefully learned a lesson, and payed a price for not showing up to play.
Nicholas, I'm an old veteran of the game. I've been in a few hundred wins (600+) and only about 150-200 losses. So, I hope that you think I've been around some. I've coached baseball in this country and was once honored to represent our country abroad in both Lithuania and Russia. You keep saying that you want to make sure that the game is taught right. Right in who's estimation? Who's unwritten rules are you going by? Who made you the judge on all of this? You have some great baseball people in this thread. I read some of their responses both in this thread and elsewhere on this site and to be honest, they have given you very sound advice. I don't want to offend any of them by leaving their names out but Will, Redbird et. al. have no stake in this and they have stated that this rule of 8 and no bunting and no stealing isn't an UNWRITTEN RULE. Heck, the advice to worry about your team is great advice. You don't have any control over the opponent. Control what you do. You can take a situation like this and make it what you want. My bet, and agreeing with the others, is that they wanted to short game you so that it would end. They'd save thier pitcher's arm and they'd get their players home. More than once or twice I've done this and no one has ever said a word. Now, if it were a larger lead and we had the game won, then, that might have been different.
Nicholas, I used the above quote from the first page and wanted to address this. So, are you suggesting that you punished these kids? That is what I take out of this. So, did you do baseball which they sorely need or did you run them? Did you run them telling them how much heart they lacked, how they backed off and how they are losers? Nicholas, I hope you didn't. If so, what you proved is that you took a bunch of guys that have limited skills and wasted a day when they could get better by replacing it with a day where you made them hate baseball. I'd appreciate knowing but really, that's ok. Nicholas, I've done this for a long time as I've said, don't assume that because people don't agree with you that they are wrong and don't know baseball. Use these resources to improve. Don't take it all personal. You have a lot of people here that have been there and done that. Believe me, I'm in awe of a few in this thred. Take care!
Ironhorse, great comment on page 1.
Thank you coach for your reply. I do not believe in running a team for losing. I do believe a team needs to be sent a message that it is not ok to show up not ready to play baseball. Before I get asked the question, I did not determine they were not ready to play simply because we played terrible! I determined we were not reay to play when we had FIVE players who up late for pregame work before we hit the road (there was not school). As a coach, and I am sure you will agree, you know when your team is ready to play and when they are not. We always run after we stretch and before we throw. We stepped the intensity of our running up to teach a lesson. Then we went to work to correct the fundamental mistakes we made during the course of the game. We had a very nice practice teaching baseball, we would never waste an invaluable opportunity on the field, to only run. As you know, there are not many off days when the season begins, they are precious, and can not be wasted. We have played with a lot of heart, determination, and passion since. I appreciate all you coaches, players, parents, and fans on this website. I wish you nothing but the best.
I would say this is the first problem. They shouldn't be able to "step it up" when running. It should be full-go already.
The difference is these games have time limits. As a basketball coach I can decide no way, no how does the other team have enough time to mount a comeback. In baseball if the team that's behind gets hot, they get all the time they want for a comeback.quote:If you were a basketball coach and a team was fullcourt pressing up by 30 late in game, would that have an impact on how you feel? If you were a football coach and the opposing team was throwing it deep down the field up by 4 touchdowns late in the game, would that have an impact on how you feel?
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
Our program has a new direction, and sometimes you have to teach kids that the old ways are no longer acceptable.
Nicholas, and that is a great idea. However, you do it in several ways. Bulldog19 was a fiery competitor. I coached against him and he knows the program I ran. He'd be the first to acknowledge that the coaching staff at his school as well as myself get after it. However, we get the kids to buy into it. It isn't overnight. In the end, if you care about the fundamentals and teach the game and then have the kids come along beside you, you'll make it a program. What you're going to have to first do is discover how to make it a program and not just a team.
Here is something for you to think about and what I call, The Qualities of a Baseball Knight.
1. He wants the toughest and best competition in practice and in games because it makes him better.
2. He would rather his team win conference than himself make All-Conference.
3. Whether in the game or not, he wants all of his teammates to do well.
4. He practices hard and pays the price because he knows that most Baseball games are won or lost due to preparation.
5. He deals honestly with his coaches and teammates. He understands that disloyalty to either coaches or teammates hurts the team and will not be tolerated.
6. He never assesses blame.
7. He pays attention to detail.
8. He never likes losing but he is gracious in losing. He understands that he represents his team, coaches, school and community.
9. He will never back down from competition.
10. He practices to make small strides in his game each and every day to enable him to be a complete baseball player by the end of his playing career as a Knight.
11. He realizes that his off-court behaviors, demeanor and attitude affect the team, coaching staff, school and community.
12. He realizes that if we lose, it is not “his fault.” Losing is a team loss. He also realizes that if we win, it is not strictly because of him. Winning is a team win.
13. He realizes that the difference between most players is not so great that hard work cannot overcome it.
14. He puts the time and effort in during the off-season in the plyo-metric and weight conditioning program to enable his team to have success.
15. He would rather build character than be a character!
This or things like this is the first step to building a program. Then, great teams will follow. However, you have to get a tradition started first.
Nicholas,
After you have thought through the list I provided, here is something else to think on. What do you say to the players in practice? That is important! I have sayings that I constantly scream, say, repeat, ...
Nicholas, you can go to our Middle School and ask any ball player any of these and they'll instantly know them. In fact, you can go all the way down to 4th grade and you'll find some young men that will know them. That is how you turn a program around. You know what, until then you're going to get your lunch handed to you. BUT, once you have it moving and growing, it will thrive on itself. Winning will beget winning IF you allow it to happen. JMHO!
After you have thought through the list I provided, here is something else to think on. What do you say to the players in practice? That is important! I have sayings that I constantly scream, say, repeat, ...
- Take one day off and you know it. Take two days off and your opponent knows it. Take three days off and everyone knows it.
- Repetition is no fun but it's the reason we have won.
- In the warrior's code there's no surrender. Though your body says quit, your spirit cries never. Deep in your soul's an undying ember that knows it you against you. That's the paradox that drives us all.
- Don't be sorry. Be better!
- There are three types of people in this world. Those that makes things happen. Those that watch things happen. And, those to whom things happen!
- Excellence IS EXPECTED!
Nicholas, you can go to our Middle School and ask any ball player any of these and they'll instantly know them. In fact, you can go all the way down to 4th grade and you'll find some young men that will know them. That is how you turn a program around. You know what, until then you're going to get your lunch handed to you. BUT, once you have it moving and growing, it will thrive on itself. Winning will beget winning IF you allow it to happen. JMHO!
Nicholas, you want to remind us of your situation again.. I went to check and your first post had been edited..
If I remember correctly, you're an assistant coach under a head coach who has been there awhile, right? Why exactly would there be massive change all the way through the program if the head coach is still there?
If I remember correctly, you're an assistant coach under a head coach who has been there awhile, right? Why exactly would there be massive change all the way through the program if the head coach is still there?
This is a super thread, especially the second half, thanks to all who have posted for some great stuff.
I am not a very active poster on boards, but I have been a very active reader for the past two years trying to learn from people who have much more experience than I do. I felt the need to jump in on this very interesting thread for a few reasons.
1.) I experienced this scenario last night against a team that is usually very competitive. We jumped out to a big lead and ended up winning 22-1. I called off the dogs in the fourth inning up 13-1. I felt that 12 runs was good enough to save our arms and get out of there in 5 innings. I felt this was reasonable. We stopped taking extra bases, and simply took what was given to us. I did not tell my guys to strike out on purpose, bunt back to the pitcher, or hit opposite handed. IMHO this is would be really showing up your opponent. I just emptied my bench in the 4th, let the kids take their at bats and went station to station on the bases. Not a very fun game to be a part of on either side.
2.) The minor debate people got into with age and being a head coach. I am 27 years old and in my 4th year coaching and 4th year as a head coach. I knew that if I wasn't able to play professionally I wanted to coach professionally from the time I was in middle school. I consider my "apprenticeship" as a coach what I learned from the excellent and not so excellent coaches I played under as a player. I felt that I was ready to be a head coach my first year. Don't get me wrong, I made mistakes and have learned a lot by experiencing, talking to other coaches, reading what is posted on this and other boards, and reading coaching and management books. I am without a doubt a FAR better coach today than I was four years ago and I hope to be a FAR better coach four years from now than I am today. I have learned some about skills, drills, hitting, situational baseball since I became a coach. Many of those things don't change over time and don't need major adjustments. Where I have really improved, and where any coach who takes his profession seriously really learns, is how to manage kids who have different needs, how to handle the "extra" things that pop up each year, how to make sure that you are improving from day to day and year to year, and how to conduct yourself as a professional who makes your players better people. One of the most overlooked things in coaching is reflection. Many times coaches focus on what their team did wrong. To me, the most important thing is what did I do wrong, and how can I change that to fix my teams issues.
So in a nutshell: Can a young person qualified to be a head coach? That totally depends on the person. We have a very young staff (27, 26, 25, 25, 22) and it varies so drastically, not in knowledge of the game, but in the way each young coach handles kids and conducts themselves in a professional manner. I totally understand why people would be gun-shy to hire a young inexperienced head coach. I am lucky to have been in a situation where an AD and principal took a chance on me.
Best of luck to everyone this season and let's keep up the good discussion.
1.) I experienced this scenario last night against a team that is usually very competitive. We jumped out to a big lead and ended up winning 22-1. I called off the dogs in the fourth inning up 13-1. I felt that 12 runs was good enough to save our arms and get out of there in 5 innings. I felt this was reasonable. We stopped taking extra bases, and simply took what was given to us. I did not tell my guys to strike out on purpose, bunt back to the pitcher, or hit opposite handed. IMHO this is would be really showing up your opponent. I just emptied my bench in the 4th, let the kids take their at bats and went station to station on the bases. Not a very fun game to be a part of on either side.
2.) The minor debate people got into with age and being a head coach. I am 27 years old and in my 4th year coaching and 4th year as a head coach. I knew that if I wasn't able to play professionally I wanted to coach professionally from the time I was in middle school. I consider my "apprenticeship" as a coach what I learned from the excellent and not so excellent coaches I played under as a player. I felt that I was ready to be a head coach my first year. Don't get me wrong, I made mistakes and have learned a lot by experiencing, talking to other coaches, reading what is posted on this and other boards, and reading coaching and management books. I am without a doubt a FAR better coach today than I was four years ago and I hope to be a FAR better coach four years from now than I am today. I have learned some about skills, drills, hitting, situational baseball since I became a coach. Many of those things don't change over time and don't need major adjustments. Where I have really improved, and where any coach who takes his profession seriously really learns, is how to manage kids who have different needs, how to handle the "extra" things that pop up each year, how to make sure that you are improving from day to day and year to year, and how to conduct yourself as a professional who makes your players better people. One of the most overlooked things in coaching is reflection. Many times coaches focus on what their team did wrong. To me, the most important thing is what did I do wrong, and how can I change that to fix my teams issues.
So in a nutshell: Can a young person qualified to be a head coach? That totally depends on the person. We have a very young staff (27, 26, 25, 25, 22) and it varies so drastically, not in knowledge of the game, but in the way each young coach handles kids and conducts themselves in a professional manner. I totally understand why people would be gun-shy to hire a young inexperienced head coach. I am lucky to have been in a situation where an AD and principal took a chance on me.
Best of luck to everyone this season and let's keep up the good discussion.
BCRockets,
With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO
That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.
I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!
With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO
That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.
I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
BCRockets,
With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO
That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.
I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!
What he said
Coach Nicholas is 100 percent correct in that people should not "run up" the score for any reason. I don't care if there are 10 run rules or not. Baseball is the "greatest game on Earth." It is fun because it is mostly played in warm-weather and sunshine. It is fun because whether you are a player, manager, coach or fan, you are always thinking about the strategy and the game itself. Baseball's clock is your own enjoyment. I fail to see anyone's enjoyment when teams that are ahead by eight or 10 runs. When we are ahead by 10, my players are unhappy with the lack of a game. We don't run or bunt or suicide squeeze. We do, however, run hard from base to base on passed balls and wild pitches. We don't appreciate other teams running up the score when we have position players on the mound to chew up innings. Stealing bases ahead during games with insurmountable leads shows a tremendous disrespect for baseball.
Many people quote Bobby Bowden and other unprofessional comments that don't belong in baseball. I have no problem with people beating my brains in by 20 runs. Just make sure you swing the bats and run the bases hard. Stealing and bunting will only get players hurt. If the other team is ripping our pitching staff with doubles and triples in the gaps, well, then I tip my cap. But when you run knowing that the game is six outs away from being over, then you have no respect for baseball. If you are worried about a team coming back, well, then your team must not be that good to begin with. I have played, coached, umpired and managed at high levels for more than 40 years and I can only recall two instances where teams were down eight or ten with six outs to play came back and won the game.
The ten-run rule is not an excuse to act in an obnoxious manner. Swing the bats, play the game hard without stealing bases on backups and making a travesty of the great game of baseball. I don't care if people run the score up on me, but they will answer to me after the game. I don't retaliate because it is not baseball. It is another game coached by those who don't appreciate the work of others. For those who think that it is appropriate to run up the score, fine, please do so, but remember that there are great people out there who spent hours to make this game fun for all of us. Please don't ruin it by trying to show your fans that you know how to hit and run, steal, suicide squeeze to beat a team 15-1 instead of 9-1.
Many people quote Bobby Bowden and other unprofessional comments that don't belong in baseball. I have no problem with people beating my brains in by 20 runs. Just make sure you swing the bats and run the bases hard. Stealing and bunting will only get players hurt. If the other team is ripping our pitching staff with doubles and triples in the gaps, well, then I tip my cap. But when you run knowing that the game is six outs away from being over, then you have no respect for baseball. If you are worried about a team coming back, well, then your team must not be that good to begin with. I have played, coached, umpired and managed at high levels for more than 40 years and I can only recall two instances where teams were down eight or ten with six outs to play came back and won the game.
The ten-run rule is not an excuse to act in an obnoxious manner. Swing the bats, play the game hard without stealing bases on backups and making a travesty of the great game of baseball. I don't care if people run the score up on me, but they will answer to me after the game. I don't retaliate because it is not baseball. It is another game coached by those who don't appreciate the work of others. For those who think that it is appropriate to run up the score, fine, please do so, but remember that there are great people out there who spent hours to make this game fun for all of us. Please don't ruin it by trying to show your fans that you know how to hit and run, steal, suicide squeeze to beat a team 15-1 instead of 9-1.
BCRockets,
Not bad...not bad at all.
You mention self reflection versus thinking about what the team did wrong. That trait in itself says alot about you and will serve you well for many years to come, whether you remain in coaching or follow other pursuits. You'll also see your kids play better when they know every move they make isn't always being 2nd guessed (probably the number one problem I see with HS coaches).
You also mention handling players with different needs and making them better. That brings up number 2 problem I see in HS coaches...trying to cookie cut everybody into the same style of hitting, catching or whatever. Easy ( actually lazy) way to coach/teach...often not that successful. Sounds like you've got a handle on that as well.
Good luck this season. Hopefully, luck won't play that big a part.
Not bad...not bad at all.
You mention self reflection versus thinking about what the team did wrong. That trait in itself says alot about you and will serve you well for many years to come, whether you remain in coaching or follow other pursuits. You'll also see your kids play better when they know every move they make isn't always being 2nd guessed (probably the number one problem I see with HS coaches).
You also mention handling players with different needs and making them better. That brings up number 2 problem I see in HS coaches...trying to cookie cut everybody into the same style of hitting, catching or whatever. Easy ( actually lazy) way to coach/teach...often not that successful. Sounds like you've got a handle on that as well.
Good luck this season. Hopefully, luck won't play that big a part.
I have to say that in the past week that I have been gone with my team during spring break this thread has really taken off. Some great stuff and I plan on borrowing quite a bit of it for my team.
Coach B25 you might be awed by some people on here but with your last few posts I think you just moved yourself into the being awed status. That was some amazing stuff you put.
BCRockets I think you have a great future based on what you put. You are 100% right in the reflecting angle. I started out and made a ton of mistakes but I started thinking about why I was doing some things and realized it was wasted effort. I think I am a much better coach than I was when I first started out but it was because I took my lumps and learned from them. Hopefully in 10 more years I can take the lumps I am getting now and learn from them to be a better coach.
This week for my team became the practical reason why you go for the mercy rule. In our spring break games we played this one team who was atrocious and I mean atrocious. I actually felt sorry for this team but we had to play them three times. Later in the week we played two very solid teams ranked very high in South Carolina and North Carolina respectivley.
My number one pitcher is hurt and my number three pitcher was hurting and not at 100%. So now I got to play 3 games and use my pitching pool before I even get to the good teams. So what do I do to put my team in the best possible position for success at the end of the week - I went for the mercy rule and got it in two of the games. We beat them 14 - 4 and 12 - 2 in the first two games. In each game I used about 3 pitchers going about 2 innings each.
I got several things accomplished - I got my starters work in the field and at the plate. I got all my pitchers some "bullpen" work although it was during a real game. So I treated the two games like practice. I worked on hit and runs, steals and other situations. We didn't score the 10th mercy run until the 5th inning so it wasn't like we were killing them from inning one.
Now the reason why I treated it like a practice is my team has yet to practice or even step foot onto our field. The rain we have gotten this spring has made our field unplayable. My team is behind bigtime and these games were a way for us to try and get caught up.
We beat them with the mercy rule in the first two games and I felt pretty good of where my starters were by this point. The third game I played every single guy who had yet to get into the game. It was pretty much the weakest lineup I could have put onto the field. We got beat 4 - 1 and it was their first win of the season.
Did I do this because I felt sorry for the other team? No I did it because it gave my starters a chance to rest before we played the really good teams and my bench players who work their butt off in practices a chance to play. I could have very easily put my starters in to ensure a win but it would have cheated my bench players of their chance. The great thing is I think I can use some of those guys in specialty situations.
But my main goal was to beat them as quickly as possible to save my pitching since I was down two arms.
Coach B25 you might be awed by some people on here but with your last few posts I think you just moved yourself into the being awed status. That was some amazing stuff you put.
BCRockets I think you have a great future based on what you put. You are 100% right in the reflecting angle. I started out and made a ton of mistakes but I started thinking about why I was doing some things and realized it was wasted effort. I think I am a much better coach than I was when I first started out but it was because I took my lumps and learned from them. Hopefully in 10 more years I can take the lumps I am getting now and learn from them to be a better coach.
This week for my team became the practical reason why you go for the mercy rule. In our spring break games we played this one team who was atrocious and I mean atrocious. I actually felt sorry for this team but we had to play them three times. Later in the week we played two very solid teams ranked very high in South Carolina and North Carolina respectivley.
My number one pitcher is hurt and my number three pitcher was hurting and not at 100%. So now I got to play 3 games and use my pitching pool before I even get to the good teams. So what do I do to put my team in the best possible position for success at the end of the week - I went for the mercy rule and got it in two of the games. We beat them 14 - 4 and 12 - 2 in the first two games. In each game I used about 3 pitchers going about 2 innings each.
I got several things accomplished - I got my starters work in the field and at the plate. I got all my pitchers some "bullpen" work although it was during a real game. So I treated the two games like practice. I worked on hit and runs, steals and other situations. We didn't score the 10th mercy run until the 5th inning so it wasn't like we were killing them from inning one.
Now the reason why I treated it like a practice is my team has yet to practice or even step foot onto our field. The rain we have gotten this spring has made our field unplayable. My team is behind bigtime and these games were a way for us to try and get caught up.
We beat them with the mercy rule in the first two games and I felt pretty good of where my starters were by this point. The third game I played every single guy who had yet to get into the game. It was pretty much the weakest lineup I could have put onto the field. We got beat 4 - 1 and it was their first win of the season.
Did I do this because I felt sorry for the other team? No I did it because it gave my starters a chance to rest before we played the really good teams and my bench players who work their butt off in practices a chance to play. I could have very easily put my starters in to ensure a win but it would have cheated my bench players of their chance. The great thing is I think I can use some of those guys in specialty situations.
But my main goal was to beat them as quickly as possible to save my pitching since I was down two arms.
I think all the coaches who take time to post here are special people who really care about what they do.
Still haven’t received an answer to this question…
Not making any judgments as to right or wrong… I understand the reasons someone might want to end a game early at times. Not asking if it would bother you if someone else did it against you, I’m just curious as to whether any of the coaches who post here can remember ever putting the bunt on with an eight run lead.
Still haven’t received an answer to this question…
quote:Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?
Not making any judgments as to right or wrong… I understand the reasons someone might want to end a game early at times. Not asking if it would bother you if someone else did it against you, I’m just curious as to whether any of the coaches who post here can remember ever putting the bunt on with an eight run lead.
PG
With a 8 run lead and we are swinging the sticks well why sacrifice ?-- We trust that our team is in a groove with the bats and why give up an out---let the kids hit away---with an 8 run lead why worry about hitting into a DP--we don't think that we will --we think positive and that the batter will get a hit--if he doesn't , well, that is baseball
With a 8 run lead and we are swinging the sticks well why sacrifice ?-- We trust that our team is in a groove with the bats and why give up an out---let the kids hit away---with an 8 run lead why worry about hitting into a DP--we don't think that we will --we think positive and that the batter will get a hit--if he doesn't , well, that is baseball
PG,
to answer your question I have to say no to both situations. I want the mercy rule if we can get it because it does save me some arms but I am not going to bunt for it. I am of the same thinking as TR that if we have that big of a lead it's usually because we are swinging the bat well.
I don't bunt that much to begin with unless we are needing a run. I teach to swing the bat and hit the ball hard at any opportunity. We only bunt late in games that are close and we have to have a run or need an insurance run.
to answer your question I have to say no to both situations. I want the mercy rule if we can get it because it does save me some arms but I am not going to bunt for it. I am of the same thinking as TR that if we have that big of a lead it's usually because we are swinging the bat well.
I don't bunt that much to begin with unless we are needing a run. I teach to swing the bat and hit the ball hard at any opportunity. We only bunt late in games that are close and we have to have a run or need an insurance run.
PG, yes I've had a sac bunt be put down with an 8 run lead AND in the 5th inning. There were runners on 1st and 2nd and we were in a tournament. We advanced the runners and the next hitter ended the game. We has something to the effect of 9 games in 6 days and so, I had to think about pitching. Did I make it a habit? NO! I wouldn't have been mad at a coach for doing it to us. However, if they had the 10 run lead and were bunting for more then I probably would have. Every one knows what the spring is like. You might have to play every night and then play a double header on the weekend or play in a tournament. JMHO!
with mercy rule comes stuff like this. It is what it is but one thing I know it is not baseball.
You use the rules that you are playing under---if that includes a mercy rule you play to end the game as rapidly as is possible--especially in a tournament where you need to save arms
The mercy rule was put in for a reason. In our example from the other night, we did call off the dogs, but were not going to embarrass the other team by bunting back to the pitcher, striking out on purpose, etc. The final score was 22-1. What would have happened if we had played 7 full innings instead of 5? That game would have been a lot uglier.
Another situation that may be of interest happened to us on Saturday. We fall down 10-2 in the 4th. The team we were playing is not a team that uses the bunt a lot or steals a lot of bases, so it was hard for me to tell what the other coach's philosophy on the situation was, but I would have had no problem with them bunting, stealing etc. We ended up losing 13-12 and left the tying run on third base. A saying that I use a lot with our team is "you can't take anything for granted." We didn't take for granted that the game was over and it clearly wasn't at 10-2. I wouldn't expect us to take for granted that a game was over if we were up 10-2 in the 4th either.
Another situation that may be of interest happened to us on Saturday. We fall down 10-2 in the 4th. The team we were playing is not a team that uses the bunt a lot or steals a lot of bases, so it was hard for me to tell what the other coach's philosophy on the situation was, but I would have had no problem with them bunting, stealing etc. We ended up losing 13-12 and left the tying run on third base. A saying that I use a lot with our team is "you can't take anything for granted." We didn't take for granted that the game was over and it clearly wasn't at 10-2. I wouldn't expect us to take for granted that a game was over if we were up 10-2 in the 4th either.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
You use the rules that you are playing under---if that includes a mercy rule you play to end the game as rapidly as is possible--especially in a tournament where you need to save arms
I agree. We were leading 14-1 with temperatures at 46 degrees, wind blowing 30-40 mph (anyone know what the wind chill factors would be?) when a coach decided to bring in the cuts (they were told they would not get any playing time) and the reserves. They couldn't buy an out, letting the opposing team score 12 runs, 11 of those unearned. I think one inning lasted an hour.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I agree Will. I am only 27, but I guess I was taught the game by men who believed in old school baseball. I still do not know what I would do in a situation if I needed to protect arms, but didn't want to rub it in.
Nicholas25, I'm troubled by this sense or suggestion that because one doesn't agree with you, they are either ignorant or wasn't brought up on "OLD SCHOOL BASEBALL." When I played, back in the day, I don't remember any short game rule. About as "old school" as you could get is to lay a butt kicking on the other team. These new gentler and kinder rules are a product of today. In the cases where I've tried to end the game, the most repeated comment from the other team's coach was, "thanks!" Again, I'd suggest that instead of worrying about what the other team was going to do or doing, I'd concentrate my effort making sure that my team was coached to the best of my abilities. In the end, that is what counts not the score IF your intent is to better these players. Making a score 10 to nothing and disagreeing with Will here, isn't unsportsmanlike. What is is continuting to prolong that game when a team is beaten both physically and mentally. Of couse I'd suggest to you that things will change when someday you're the one making all of the decisions. BTW, if you don't like getting shortgamed, you'd better have a plan and expect anything BECAUSE if you do this for long, it'll happen to you again.
Here is an interesting sidebar regarding how some coaches think
Last fall we were in a tournamentb that used the "mercy rule"---we mercied the opponent but we still had one more arm we wanted throw what with all the scouts in attendance--we asked the opposing coach if he would mind batting one more inning so this kid could throw---his answer was a very terse " No way--we are out of here now !" We were not asking to bat again just wanting to give the arm some exposure
Conversely a few years back in Jupiter we were the visitors and lost 2-0 in agreat game---we asked the opposing coach if they would bat one more time so we could have a kid throw for the scouts----his answer was gentlemanly " No problem, Coach"
It takes all kinds !!!!
Last fall we were in a tournamentb that used the "mercy rule"---we mercied the opponent but we still had one more arm we wanted throw what with all the scouts in attendance--we asked the opposing coach if he would mind batting one more inning so this kid could throw---his answer was a very terse " No way--we are out of here now !" We were not asking to bat again just wanting to give the arm some exposure
Conversely a few years back in Jupiter we were the visitors and lost 2-0 in agreat game---we asked the opposing coach if they would bat one more time so we could have a kid throw for the scouts----his answer was gentlemanly " No problem, Coach"
It takes all kinds !!!!
This weekend at my son's 14U tournament the other team was up 9-1 in the fourth. There is a 10 runs after 5 rule in place and the other team squeezed to get a run home. Our coach went ballistic!! F-bombs, horse sh++, and every name in the book. After ranting and raving for 10 minutes he called time. My son was playing third and this is how the meeting went. Nothing but cussing and talk about how the other team was disrepecting the game and our team. He told the pitcher to throw over to first 10 times and then "stick it in the batter's ear".
Happily the pitcher didn't do it. He did throw to first 4 times in a row. All of this was caused by a coach losing his mind over a percieved insult about "how the game should be played."
Some of the parents started to get upset with the squeeze play but I talked to a few and told them the opposing coach was just trying to shorten the game and save some pitching and it cooled off in the stands.
We are through with that organization.
Happily the pitcher didn't do it. He did throw to first 4 times in a row. All of this was caused by a coach losing his mind over a percieved insult about "how the game should be played."
Some of the parents started to get upset with the squeeze play but I talked to a few and told them the opposing coach was just trying to shorten the game and save some pitching and it cooled off in the stands.
We are through with that organization.
Doughnutman, nice post. Had I been the coach, we would have been off of the stretch knowing that the winning run was on third. We would have had a defense called for the squeeze. You all know the options. It sounds to me like he was mad because he got caught with his pants down. Again, coach your team. Assume nothing! Don't expect for another team to quit playing the game because your squad isn't of the same caliber. Then, if you play every minute of every game like the game is on the line, you'll have a group of salty vets by the end of the year ready for anything. JMHO!
CoachB25
I am with you all the way---we would have been trying to stop the final run from scoring so that we would not be in the mercy situation---as far as we are concerned there is no lead that is insurmountable
I am with you all the way---we would have been trying to stop the final run from scoring so that we would not be in the mercy situation---as far as we are concerned there is no lead that is insurmountable
I believe and i'm sure other's also believe??
That if you disrespect the game! you will pay for it later?
What come's around goes around.
If there was a mercy rule in effect.
Then the opposing coach did the right thing for his team.
Get it over with as fast as possible.
There's No Disrespect at all Intended.
Just helping his team and saving arms.
EH
That if you disrespect the game! you will pay for it later?
What come's around goes around.
If there was a mercy rule in effect.
Then the opposing coach did the right thing for his team.
Get it over with as fast as possible.
There's No Disrespect at all Intended.
Just helping his team and saving arms.
EH
I'm going to go a different route and say I got showed up by a team using a squeeze play to end a game against me two years ago. Now that I think about it I am pretty ticked off because they went against the "unwritten rules" of having your cleanup hitter lay down a squeeze.
We were playing the best team in our region and happened to be one of the best teams in the state. They had 3 guys go DI and several others end up at JUCOs and smaller schools. They were stacked and very good.
Well here it is bottom of the 7th at their place and the winning run on third with like one out. Their clean up hitter (who is now at University of Louisville smashing bombs) is up. For just a second I thought there is no way they are going to squeeze here. It wouldn't be right for a clean up hitter to lay down a squeeze. So I played my corners somewhat back for a ground ball.
Well you know it - the runner broke for home and the clean up hitter laid down a perfect bunt and we couldn't get the out. Run scores - game over.
That was just wrong and never should have happened. That is bush league to have a guy who can hit it 400 feet to lay down a bunt.
Now hopefully people can read the sarcasm in this post as I intended it to be. Everything I said was true about the game and it happened just as I said it happened. I got out coached in this game because I didn't think they were going to run the squeeze.
If I was truly upset over something like this then I would be as irrational as someone getting upset over a mercy rule. You end the game in the way that helps your team the best. If you don't like the mercy rule then start a movement to eliminate it.
Other than that - take care of the things that you can control. You control your team and if you get killed by a better team then tip your hat and work on getting better instead of getting on here and complaining. You put something out there and pretty much nobody agrees with you. Now your mad. Get over it.
We were playing the best team in our region and happened to be one of the best teams in the state. They had 3 guys go DI and several others end up at JUCOs and smaller schools. They were stacked and very good.
Well here it is bottom of the 7th at their place and the winning run on third with like one out. Their clean up hitter (who is now at University of Louisville smashing bombs) is up. For just a second I thought there is no way they are going to squeeze here. It wouldn't be right for a clean up hitter to lay down a squeeze. So I played my corners somewhat back for a ground ball.
Well you know it - the runner broke for home and the clean up hitter laid down a perfect bunt and we couldn't get the out. Run scores - game over.
That was just wrong and never should have happened. That is bush league to have a guy who can hit it 400 feet to lay down a bunt.
Now hopefully people can read the sarcasm in this post as I intended it to be. Everything I said was true about the game and it happened just as I said it happened. I got out coached in this game because I didn't think they were going to run the squeeze.
If I was truly upset over something like this then I would be as irrational as someone getting upset over a mercy rule. You end the game in the way that helps your team the best. If you don't like the mercy rule then start a movement to eliminate it.
Other than that - take care of the things that you can control. You control your team and if you get killed by a better team then tip your hat and work on getting better instead of getting on here and complaining. You put something out there and pretty much nobody agrees with you. Now your mad. Get over it.
Coach
We had a similar thing happen with us but were the guys doing the bunting---we were down by a run in the last inning and needing 2 to win to move on in the tournament---our first two batters get on and we have first and second and no outs with our cleanup hitter up---it should be noted that he is 6ft 10 inches in height and 290 pounds and can hit a ball a country mile when he hits it--- we put the runners in motion and he drops a bunt and almost beats it out--but now we have second and third with one out-- the pitcher was so unnerved he uncorks two wild pitches and we win---unethical what we did ?- no way-- we wanted to make sure we got the runner to second and third with one out
Incidently the young went onto become a JUCO All American and now coaches with us and we still talk about that play
We had a similar thing happen with us but were the guys doing the bunting---we were down by a run in the last inning and needing 2 to win to move on in the tournament---our first two batters get on and we have first and second and no outs with our cleanup hitter up---it should be noted that he is 6ft 10 inches in height and 290 pounds and can hit a ball a country mile when he hits it--- we put the runners in motion and he drops a bunt and almost beats it out--but now we have second and third with one out-- the pitcher was so unnerved he uncorks two wild pitches and we win---unethical what we did ?- no way-- we wanted to make sure we got the runner to second and third with one out
Incidently the young went onto become a JUCO All American and now coaches with us and we still talk about that play
Guess I don't understand why people are jumping on Nicholas here. He states he doesn't know what he would do in a situation to end the game early to save pitching. That is the only situation that is in question here, near as I can tell.
Still don't know the exact situation in the original post. If it were the last inning, your team is leading by 8 runs and your hitting in the top of the seventh... Would anyone here bunt? You can't save pitching in that situation.
Anyway, IMO there is a time and place for many things. There are things that one person would call "bush" that in reality are simply playing the percentages.
Sometimes things just don't add up.
Tied up late in a game your hitter leads off the inning with a double. Depending on who's hitting next this is a definite bunt situation.
9 run lead late in the game your hitter leads off with a double. Seriously... How many here would bunt him to 3B rather than give three hitters a chance to drive him in?
"Other" than saving arms during a busy schedule or tournament, I just can't understand bunting with a big lead at anytime during a game. If a game is tied and a team scores 8 runs, I would never expect to see the 12th or 13th hitter of the inning lay one down.
That said, I don't think any coach should go ballistic or even get upset if this stuff happens. Often it's the guy making all the fuss that ends up looking "bush". Class is always on display!
Nicholas,
Keep in mind that there are a lot of Old School coaches who post here. Many of them have been very successful, even the old school coaches don't agree on everything. You have the main ingredient that we all share... A passion for the game! Good luck.
Still don't know the exact situation in the original post. If it were the last inning, your team is leading by 8 runs and your hitting in the top of the seventh... Would anyone here bunt? You can't save pitching in that situation.
Anyway, IMO there is a time and place for many things. There are things that one person would call "bush" that in reality are simply playing the percentages.
Sometimes things just don't add up.
Tied up late in a game your hitter leads off the inning with a double. Depending on who's hitting next this is a definite bunt situation.
9 run lead late in the game your hitter leads off with a double. Seriously... How many here would bunt him to 3B rather than give three hitters a chance to drive him in?
"Other" than saving arms during a busy schedule or tournament, I just can't understand bunting with a big lead at anytime during a game. If a game is tied and a team scores 8 runs, I would never expect to see the 12th or 13th hitter of the inning lay one down.
That said, I don't think any coach should go ballistic or even get upset if this stuff happens. Often it's the guy making all the fuss that ends up looking "bush". Class is always on display!
Nicholas,
Keep in mind that there are a lot of Old School coaches who post here. Many of them have been very successful, even the old school coaches don't agree on everything. You have the main ingredient that we all share... A passion for the game! Good luck.
quote:
Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?
No. We pay lots of money for those bats so we can swing 'em.
Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?
No. We pay lots of money for those bats so we can swing 'em.
Nicholas25, it seems to me that you are just upset(whining) that your team got beat that badly. I don't think it is right for you to judge how other coaches coach their team. Now, if the coach is directing his kids to do something like hit your batters, spike our players, things that will injure them, then I say yes that would upset me. I am not sure how what the other coach did injured your kids?? Are you saying it hurt them mentally by doing this? There is no written or unwritten rule that says, "you are not allowed to steal while ahead by 8 runs late in a game." That is ridiculous. Now I will say that as a head coach, I wouldn't have probably done what the other coach did, but I certainly wouldn't be judging him on that. Just because that isn't my pholosophy doesn't mean it is right or the only way. I would be focusing ONLY on my kids and what WE can control. We can't control or change what the other team or coach is doing. When we start focusing on all of those things like umpires, weather conditions or what the other coach is doing, then we aren't improving as a team. My 2 cents.
Coach W
Coach W
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I want to state again, that I am not the type of coach who whines about a game. I just have a passion for the game and want to see it taught the right way.
That's fine but being taught the game the right way means what to do with the ball when it's hit to you, moving runners in certain situations etc... These unwritten rules you post are just opinions of an individual.
It's not a coach's job to make his team pull back because the other team sucks. It's the other team's coach's job to prepare his players so they don't get smacked around. Besides, a lot of these pastings happen because the losing team can't get out of it's own way and without even trying to play a bit over-agressive, the team who's piling up runs most likely are doing it at will.
Besides, if a team with a big lead decides to empty his bench and play the subs, why should they come into the game handcuffed because of this so-called 'unwritten rule'. For the subs, it might be their only game experience they get and it isn't right for them to play dumbed down baseball when they get their limited opportunities.
FWIW I thought about this thread today in the 3rd base coaches box.
Long story, but I had to coach a 10a JV game today and be at our varsity game by 12p. We were up 9-0 in the bottom of 5 with a runner at second and two out (ummm...they weren't holding the runner close). I had the kid steal third, hitter drives in run with a single hit right at LF, game over. I make it to varsity game just in time to get our pitcher to the pen.
I told the opposing coach the situation earlier and he understood. We were the better team by far. I stole to end the game. I'll be sleeping well tonight.
Long story, but I had to coach a 10a JV game today and be at our varsity game by 12p. We were up 9-0 in the bottom of 5 with a runner at second and two out (ummm...they weren't holding the runner close). I had the kid steal third, hitter drives in run with a single hit right at LF, game over. I make it to varsity game just in time to get our pitcher to the pen.
I told the opposing coach the situation earlier and he understood. We were the better team by far. I stole to end the game. I'll be sleeping well tonight.
ironhorse
Well said---the key is that you discussed it with the opposing coach so he knew you were not rubbing his nose in it--I hate the mercy rule but if it is there I will use as well as I can---the other team can do the same---
Well said---the key is that you discussed it with the opposing coach so he knew you were not rubbing his nose in it--I hate the mercy rule but if it is there I will use as well as I can---the other team can do the same---
with the mercy rule I dont think any discussion with piling it on is valid. You also have the rentry. Now you are up 9 in the 4th you sub. all of a sudden the other team comes back and makes it say 9-8. You take the subs out renter your starters. Not exactly baseball but that is the way the game is played today.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I was talking about sac. bunting, hitting and running, and stealing bags with a big lead late. I did not say you quit trying to score, you just don't try to squeeze runs across like you would in a tight game late.
Maybe you don't play the same way in a close game compared to a blowout but if a team chooses to play that way, that's their choice and you should just live with it and move on and not complain or worry about it but just play your game.
Also, with a mercy rule, you try to save your arms by getting the game over as quick as possible so these so called unwritten rules can't apply since no mercy changes the whole game.
Perhaps the worst 'written' rule is the no mercy. Play out the game and you'll see less squeezing of runs with big leads. If you got an 8-run lead and you can bunt 2 runners in scoring position possibly end the game on one swing, you do it, try to get out of there and spare your pitchers for a game they will be needed more. Especially in high school where overextending reliable pitchers is the norm.
What team did this to you?
I know your schedule and it was probably a team that is a rival. All of baseball unwritten rules are thrown out when playing teams with a history. Rivalries do not count in unwritten rules.
I know your schedule and it was probably a team that is a rival. All of baseball unwritten rules are thrown out when playing teams with a history. Rivalries do not count in unwritten rules.
sports are about competing. If you werent competing to win then what was the point. a win is a win no matter the score. the game should be played hard and aggresively until the final out of the game. I've been on both end of the bat as a coach and player. you never let up and you'll never surrender. my 2 cents.
I was in a situation in a World Series event. We are beating a team 8-o in the second. Our guys are still stretching base hit into doubles. The other teams is good but we are just hitting. We had a runner on first and our batter gets a base hit. The third baseman and shortstop to the mound without calling time out. Our runners take the base.
The coach is giving me grief. I told him I did not send them. He tells me my players should know better. I tell him his should know better to call time out. Plus I tell him my pitcher can lose it at any moment. Mind you, this team was actually very good. Well, two inning later the score was 10-7. I knew my pitcher and this team. The final score was 14-9. If I would have slowed down I could have lost.
In the same world series. We went up 4-0 on a team in the first and decided to not to bunt or steal from that point because I knew the game was going to get out of hand later. It would depend on the situationof each game.
I all my years coaching I have never worried about what the other team did as I can't control that. I coach my kids the best I can to make sure they are prepared. It is not the other team fault if we can't execute. They should be able to coach their team how the see fit. Who am I to tell them not to steal or bunt? As I tell me players, if you don't want to get rung up on a bad called third strike....don't get to strike two. If you don't want to them to run or bunt with a 8 run lead don't give up the eight runs.
The coach is giving me grief. I told him I did not send them. He tells me my players should know better. I tell him his should know better to call time out. Plus I tell him my pitcher can lose it at any moment. Mind you, this team was actually very good. Well, two inning later the score was 10-7. I knew my pitcher and this team. The final score was 14-9. If I would have slowed down I could have lost.
In the same world series. We went up 4-0 on a team in the first and decided to not to bunt or steal from that point because I knew the game was going to get out of hand later. It would depend on the situationof each game.
I all my years coaching I have never worried about what the other team did as I can't control that. I coach my kids the best I can to make sure they are prepared. It is not the other team fault if we can't execute. They should be able to coach their team how the see fit. Who am I to tell them not to steal or bunt? As I tell me players, if you don't want to get rung up on a bad called third strike....don't get to strike two. If you don't want to them to run or bunt with a 8 run lead don't give up the eight runs.
quote:Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men. Colossians 3:23 (HOLMAN CHRISTIAN STANDARD BIBLE)
Perhaps the other coach read this before the game!
quote:Who am I to tell them not to steal or bunt?
well today with the 10 run rule it is not too much of an issue. Back when they played baseball u know no dh no re entry no mercy rule there was a little bad blood when teams ran it up. it is easy to say but when you are on the other end of it it is not pleasant. years ago i watched a high school game where a coach suicide squeezed leading by 10 runs. Double stealing etc etc. why ?
Nicholas, I learned a long time ago that the only thing you can control is you. Don't worry about what the other coach did. Control your emotions and learn and teach with every play. You learned to look for that bunt. Study the game, situations, technigues etc etc. If you do it right the winning comes. Baseball is a very complex game and there is always something to learn. If you don't expect help from anyone you will be in the game.
if my team is up by 15 runs we stop everything. My little league team i coached was losing 22-2 and the other team was stealing...now that is bush league, a 20 run lead is different than an 8 run lead.
Coming from a high school coach I know your frustration. My first question is how do you define late in the game? My next question is what do you know about the team and their circumstances, (i.e. were they out of pitching) My one comment is 8 runs has now been replaced by 10 runs. In my 2nd year as a coach our section istitued a 10 run rule mercy and then pulled it 2 years later. When asked all coaches said they would still shoot for 10 runs.
Nicholas25,
I don’t think you were quite understanding what everyone was trying very hard to tell you in a diplomatic manner. What your understanding is of the way the game should be played, and what’s right and wrong, is not the mainstream understanding. That doesn’t mean your wrong, but that the majority of people who would read and respond to this thread, don’t agree with you, or the way you were taught.
Take a look at how many views this thread received. Almost 4,000. Ask yourself why such a tremendously high number of views would not produce anyone who would take up your cause? Had you made the same post on a board that was basically for 12U players, I suspect the response would have been very different indeed.
I don’t think you were quite understanding what everyone was trying very hard to tell you in a diplomatic manner. What your understanding is of the way the game should be played, and what’s right and wrong, is not the mainstream understanding. That doesn’t mean your wrong, but that the majority of people who would read and respond to this thread, don’t agree with you, or the way you were taught.
Take a look at how many views this thread received. Almost 4,000. Ask yourself why such a tremendously high number of views would not produce anyone who would take up your cause? Had you made the same post on a board that was basically for 12U players, I suspect the response would have been very different indeed.
