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Coach demands all players use -12 bats Is this a good idea?

D DT2100+ posts
My 10 yo son's coach is requiring all of his players to use a -12 or lighter bat. His belives the pitchers will be much faster this year then last and the lighter bat is necessary to catch up with the harder throwers. What gets me is the coach comes across as arrogant and demanding we meet his request instead of suggesting to the parents that moving to a lighter bat will help your child succeed more.

My son used a -9 the past two years and while not the star hitter on the team, he was able to hold his own and hit the ball over the outfielder's head about 1 in 10 at bats while striking out 2 or 3 times over the entire season. (OBP probably 75-80%) He will hit against the same pitchers he faced last season. My son really likes the bat he used last year and I am frugal (my wife says cheap) and don't want to buy a bat just to please this coach. My questions are:

Will using a lighter bat automaticly make kids better hitters?
I am being an "unreasonable parent" if I don't buy a bat provided my son can prove he can hit with the same effectivness as last year? (If my son struggles and hits better with a borrowed lighter bat we will get him a lighter bat)
How difficult is it for a kid to adjust from a -12 bat to the heavier bats required as he gets older?

Thanks
Original Post

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YankeelvrYankeelvr100+ posts
Be sure to ask at the next practice which gloves don't have errors in them Big Grin A lighter bat may or may not help, it will vary based on the individual. My experience with the little guys has been just the opposite, kids seem to hit better with -8 to -11 range of bats. The -12 & -13 just don't end up being used. I suppose if a kid is really small/weak they may help.
M MTS100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by DT2:
My 10 yo son's coach is requiring all of his players to use a -12 or lighter bat. His belives the pitchers will be much faster this year then last and the lighter bat is necessary to catch up with the harder throwers. What gets me is the coach comes across as arrogant and demanding we meet his request instead of suggesting to the parents that moving to a lighter bat will help your child succeed more.

My son used a -9 the past two years and while not the star hitter on the team, he was able to hold his own and hit the ball over the outfielder's head about 1 in 10 at bats while striking out 2 or 3 times over the entire season. (OBP probably 75-80%) He will hit against the same pitchers he faced last season. My son really likes the bat he used last year and I am frugal (my wife says cheap) and don't want to buy a bat just to please this coach. My questions are:

Will using a lighter bat automaticly make kids better hitters?
I am being an "unreasonable parent" if I don't buy a bat provided my son can prove he can hit with the same effectivness as last year? (If my son struggles and hits better with a borrowed lighter bat we will get him a lighter bat)
How difficult is it for a kid to adjust from a -12 bat to the heavier bats required as he gets older?

Thanks


My son had used a 30-21 (-9) as a 10 year old and he was the 2nd smallest player on the team. He was the only kid not to strikeout against a couple of hard throwing pitchers and actually hit linedrives back up the middle. The assistant coach threaten to bench him if he used the bat again. The manager said he was in charge and allowed my son to continue to use his bat. He finished the season 2nd on the team for batting leaders.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MTS:
quote:
Originally posted by DT2:
My 10 yo son's coach is requiring all of his players to use a -12 or lighter bat. His belives the pitchers will be much faster this year then last and the lighter bat is necessary to catch up with the harder throwers. What gets me is the coach comes across as arrogant and demanding we meet his request instead of suggesting to the parents that moving to a lighter bat will help your child succeed more.

My son used a -9 the past two years and while not the star hitter on the team, he was able to hold his own and hit the ball over the outfielder's head about 1 in 10 at bats while striking out 2 or 3 times over the entire season. (OBP probably 75-80%) He will hit against the same pitchers he faced last season. My son really likes the bat he used last year and I am frugal (my wife says cheap) and don't want to buy a bat just to please this coach. My questions are:

Will using a lighter bat automaticly make kids better hitters?
I am being an "unreasonable parent" if I don't buy a bat provided my son can prove he can hit with the same effectivness as last year? (If my son struggles and hits better with a borrowed lighter bat we will get him a lighter bat)
How difficult is it for a kid to adjust from a -12 bat to the heavier bats required as he gets older?

Thanks


My son had used a 30-21 (-9) as a 10 year old and he was the 2nd smallest player on the team. He was the only kid not to strikeout against a couple of hard throwing pitchers and actually hit linedrives back up the middle. The assistant coach threaten to bench him if he used the bat again. The manager said he was in charge and allowed my son to continue to use his bat. He finished the season 2nd on the team for batting leaders.




Where do these Coaches come from? WOW! I would get a sticker off of a -12 and put it over the -9, he'll never know the difference. What an idiot! Has he never heard the phrase "size doesn't matter"? It's true! Just ask my Wife, lol!
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWagner:
There is nothing wrong with what the coach is saying. A lighter bat will be able to be swung faster and speed vs. weight is the most important factor.




Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! If that were true bats would be made out of Balsa wood. Their is a point at which the weight of the bat will help build strength in younger kids and even help with getting through the ball. Can you hit a ball as far with a wiffle bat as you can a -3 bat??? Bat length and weight are things that are unique to each hitter or all Pro bats would be the same. Things like this is why kids don't develop early as players, poor instruction.
BS Brian Shanberg100+ posts
Similar age group: We practice w/ drop 8.5 and play games w/ drop 10. Haven't used drop 12 since T-ball. I'll add that my kid is one of the smallest on the team and that we saw marked improvement when we ignored the drop (within reason) and shortened the bat. I'm suggesting, the right bat length proved to be more important than just trying to find the right drop size. I know stats at this age are not important and sometimes not relevant, but the little dude hit over 500 last season in travel ball using an inexpensive Easton 28" bat.

I'd get the right bat for the player and put a drop 12 sticker on the bat.(As someone suggested earlier.)
TR Tim Robertson100+ posts
I agree with Chris that a lighter bat can be swung faster and this would help. I would also go with if the coach demands that players use a bat like this then is he going to fork over money for buying one.
You didn't say if this is LL or AAU. I know that most AAU players went with the feathers (that's what they felt like to me) when they came out. Maybe ask the coach if he makes it a point of this that you don't have the money right now and that your son really likes the bat he has now and that if he struggles with his bat but is able to hit with the lighter bat, that you'll go get that lighter bat when the money is saved up. Also I agree with the point of a "heavier" bat building strength, but that could be done in practice also. I know that many of the kids that went with the -12 bats also went on to play college ball - I don't think it hurt them.

Tim Robertson
C ChrisWagnerMember
To powertoallfields:

Did you just recently get involved in baseball. Why do you think that the pros and college and highschool only allow a drop 3. Just incase you don't know what a drop 3 is: a bat can only be 3 oz lighter than its length. So a bat that is 33 inches long can weigh no less than 30 oz. Now back to my question. If the MLB, College and HS bats are required to go by the drop 3 rule then the question is why? The answer is exit speeds off the bat, the lighter the bat the quicker you can swing it the farther it will propel the ball and it was getting to the point the pitchers were getting killed. Simple physics, bat speed is, (outside of proper swing mechanics), the most important part of hitting a baseball further. Now in regards to the coach. He is requiring lighter bats, because the boys will be able to power the bat through the strike zone quicker which will help in reacting to a faster pitcher.
By the way you're correct about the wiffle ball bat not being effective with a base ball. But a drop 3 bat would not hit a wiffle ball as far as a wiffle ball bat. See your analogy doesn't work that way.
Also, if you look out on the internet, you will find that the optimal bat weight is around 17 oz. real close to the drop 12 bat at 30 inches.

"You're wrong Colonel Sanders, Momma is right!"
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWagner:
To powertoallfields:

Did you just recently get involved in baseball. Why do you think that the pros and college and highschool only allow a drop 3. Just incase you don't know what a drop 3 is: a bat can only be 3 oz lighter than its length. So a bat that is 33 inches long can weigh no less than 30 oz. Now back to my question. If the MLB, College and HS bats are required to go by the drop 3 rule then the question is why? The answer is exit speeds off the bat, the lighter the bat the quicker you can swing it the farther it will propel the ball and it was getting to the point the pitchers were getting killed. Simple physics, bat speed is, (outside of proper swing mechanics), the most important part of hitting a baseball further. Now in regards to the coach. He is requiring lighter bats, because the boys will be able to power the bat through the strike zone quicker which will help in reacting to a faster pitcher.
By the way you're correct about the wiffle ball bat not being effective with a base ball. But a drop 3 bat would not hit a wiffle ball as far as a wiffle ball bat. See your analogy doesn't work that way.
Also, if you look out on the internet, you will find that the optimal bat weight is around 17 oz. real close to the drop 12 bat at 30 inches.

"You're wrong Colonel Sanders, Momma is right!"




I have been involved in baseball for 43 years and find it mind boggling that a Coach would require ALL players to use the same drop to a bat. I am a private hitting instructor and believe ALL hitters should be taken as individuals. If I had a kid that was on this team and was swinging a -9 or less drop effectively and a Coach told him he had to change, we would be saying good bye to that Coach. My kid would be playing against his team and see how it worked out. Could you imagine Tony Larussa telling everyone on the Cardinals to use the same size bat??? It's just stupid to make a blanket statement like that to a whole team. Do you think Pujols could hit a 400' home run with a 29" 17oz. bat??? There is a point at which a persons grip strength will not handle a certain speed pitch with too light of a bat. You can choose to believe that or not.
C ChrisWagnerMember
To Powertoallfields

I never disagreed with you comment about individuality. But you are the one who called me (Wrong!, Wrong!, Wrong!) and used the wiffle ball bat analogy. YES I do believe the Pujols could hit a 400' and further home run with a 29" 17oz bat. Physics E=mc^2. Energy = mass of and ojbect * speed of an object squared. Lets say a 10 year old boy can swing a 29" 17oz bat at 55mph E=mc^2 = 51,425 not converting to units. Now lets say the same boy can swing a 29" 20oz (drop 9) at 50mph (slower speed due to heavier bat) E=mc^2 = 50,000. Less energy less distance. Now there are more factors than bat speed that is important in hitting a baseball, confidence, timing, recognizing pitches and the list goes on. But like I said in the beginning the coach makes a good point to move to the lighter bats mainly because their timing will be slower on the faster picthers and swinging the lighter bats will help make up for some of that. I find it hard to believe that a private pitching instructor would not understand this. Let me guess you teach linear hitting, if that is the case than you shouldn't be using Pujols as an example to your students, because he is a rotational hitter. Speaking from experience of coaching for at least 20 years, the one thing that I have seen on a regular basis is boys trying to hit with bats that are too heavy for them. These boys will have plenty of time to get stronger when they go up into HS, College and the Pros.
PH Pat H100+ posts
quote:
Will using a lighter bat automaticly make kids better hitters?


No.

quote:
I am being an "unreasonable parent" if I don't buy a bat provided my son can prove he can hit with the same effectivness as last year?


No.

As a coach the only thing I demand from 10 yrd old players is that they give 100% effort. As coaches of 10 yr olds it is our job to keep these kids fired up about playing baseball, teach them to handle failure, and teach them the fundamentals of the game. I have recommended players use a lighter bat, bigger/smaller glove, etc. But keep in mind if a 10 yr has a perception that a lighter bat is going to make him hit better or faster pitching, than you have done that kid more harm than good.

This coach needs to settle down and realize that these kids are 10.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWagner:
To Powertoallfields

I never disagreed with you comment about individuality. But you are the one who called me (Wrong!, Wrong!, Wrong!) and used the wiffle ball bat analogy. YES I do believe the Pujols could hit a 400' and further home run with a 29" 17oz bat. Physics E=mc^2. Energy = mass of and ojbect * speed of an object squared. Lets say a 10 year old boy can swing a 29" 17oz bat at 55mph E=mc^2 = 51,425 not converting to units. Now lets say the same boy can swing a 29" 20oz (drop 9) at 50mph (slower speed due to heavier bat) E=mc^2 = 50,000. Less energy less distance. Now there are more factors than bat speed that is important in hitting a baseball, confidence, timing, recognizing pitches and the list goes on. But like I said in the beginning the coach makes a good point to move to the lighter bats mainly because their timing will be slower on the faster picthers and swinging the lighter bats will help make up for some of that. I find it hard to believe that a private pitching instructor would not understand this. Let me guess you teach linear hitting, if that is the case than you shouldn't be using Pujols as an example to your students, because he is a rotational hitter. Speaking from experience of coaching for at least 20 years, the one thing that I have seen on a regular basis is boys trying to hit with bats that are too heavy for them. These boys will have plenty of time to get stronger when they go up into HS, College and the Pros.




No, I don't teach linear hitting mechanics. I am glad you brought up the physics of the swing though. You left out one important portion though. That is the weight of the hitter. The more force put on the wrists by the weight being transfered and the speed of the ball adds to the pressure being put on the smallest link, the hands. I'll put this into extremes here. Going back to the wiffle bat example. Would an average 10 year old be able to hit a ball (regulation baseball) farther with the wiffle bat off of a tee or with it being Pitched? Now, with it being pitched under-handed slowly or over-handed at say 50mph? Try it with your kids and see what results you get. Then keep doing the same routine by moving up the weight of the bat until they can hit the ball thrown overhanded farther and still consistently. Think of fulcrum, lever and plane, there is a point at which each thing can and will fail.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
But like I said in the beginning the coach makes a good point to move to the lighter bats mainly because their timing will be slower on the faster picthers and swinging the lighter bats will help make up for some of that.




Their timing may be off, but that is why they will learn to get quicker with their hands and bodies and possibly start their swings a little sooner. Good mechanics are the cure, not a lighter bat. In three years they will HAVE to swing a -5 and they will NOT be prepared.
C ChrisWagnerMember
You will always be able to hitting a moving object further than one off a tee (as long as good contact is made), hence the reason why hitting a baseball is one of the most difficult things to do in sports. Let's say the you take out the contact variable and say that every hit you make optimum contact. The faster the ball the more energy that is transfered to the bat and in turn transfered back to the ball. An of course a heavier bat will always transfer more energy to the ball than the lighter bat when speed is not a variable, but it is the speed of the bat that matters the most. If these 10 year olds could swing as fast with a heavy bat as they do with the light ones than by all means use the heavier bat. Take this example if a batter holds a bat still over home plate and a pitcher throws a ball and strikes the ball with good contact the heavier bat should transfer more energy back to the ball than a lighter bat, however to hit the ball out of the infield a batter must swing the bat. Using the equation E=mc^2 speed is squared.
Now as far as rotaional hitting most of a batter's bat speed is generated by the lower half and the wrists do very little. Their main part is to hold the bat in place. You also mentioned getting through the ball, and I say that any speed gained after bat and ball contact takes place is wasted. If you swing a bat at 80mph and a ball is pitched at 80mph when contact is made the initial contact is 160mph, however the ball will not jump off the bat at 160 because of some energy being lost to sound energy and heat engery and through absorbtion, but it will be traveling much faster than 80mph. Bat speed must be generated early in the swing or it is wasted effort. Getting through the ball means you would speed up the bat to match the exit speed of the ball and help to push the ball forward, but this is not possible due to the amount of time the bat and ball come in contact with each other... fractions of a second.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWagner:
quote:
Their timing may be off, but that is why they will learn to get quicker with their hands


Quick Hands is a keyword for teaching linear hitting.




So....the way you teach the hitter doesn't use his hands??? He only uses his lower body??? Can a one armed guy hit the ball as far as a guy with two if they are the same size???
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWagner:
You will always be able to hitting a moving object further than one off a tee (as long as good contact is made), hence the reason why hitting a baseball is one of the most difficult things to do in sports. Let's say the you take out the contact variable and say that every hit you make optimum contact. The faster the ball the more energy that is transfered to the bat and in turn transfered back to the ball. An of course a heavier bat will always transfer more energy to the ball than the lighter bat when speed is not a variable, but it is the speed of the bat that matters the most. If these 10 year olds could swing as fast with a heavy bat as they do with the light ones than by all means use the heavier bat. Take this example if a batter holds a bat still over home plate and a pitcher throws a ball and strikes the ball with good contact the heavier bat should transfer more energy back to the ball than a lighter bat, however to hit the ball out of the infield a batter must swing the bat. Using the equation E=mc^2 speed is squared.
Now as far as rotaional hitting most of a batter's bat speed is generated by the lower half and the wrists do very little. Their main part is to hold the bat in place. You also mentioned getting through the ball, and I say that any speed gained after bat and ball contact takes place is wasted. If you swing a bat at 80mph and a ball is pitched at 80mph when contact is made the initial contact is 160mph, however the ball will not jump off the bat at 160 because of some energy being lost to sound energy and heat engery and through absorbtion, but it will be traveling much faster than 80mph. Bat speed must be generated early in the swing or it is wasted effort. Getting through the ball means you would speed up the bat to match the exit speed of the ball and help to push the ball forward, but this is not possible due to the amount of time the bat and ball come in contact with each other... fractions of a second.




Try the drill, you will see what I am talking about.
B brian5510+ posts
quote:
Using the equation E=mc^2 speed is squared.


Einstien's equation is not used for mechanics...its an equation for how much energy is contained in mass WITHOUT motion. "c" does not stand for the variable "batspeed"; it is a constand equal to the speed of light in a vacuum.

The proper equation for the ball/bat collision would be the momentum equation p=mv where m is the mass of the bat and v is the velocity of the bathead...

So going by this as a hitter you have to strike the right balance between the weight of the bat and the speed at which you can swing it to get the maximum momentum possible. I doubt that optimal point is the same for all hitters, especially young ones...in other words do what works for you.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by brian55:
quote:
Using the equation E=mc^2 speed is squared.


Einstien's equation is not used for mechanics...its an equation for how much energy is contained in mass WITHOUT motion. "c" does not stand for the variable "batspeed"; it is a constand equal to the speed of light in a vacuum.

The proper equation for the ball/bat collision would be the momentum equation p=mv where m is the mass of the bat and v is the velocity of the bathead...

So going by this as a hitter you have to strike the right balance between the weight of the bat and the speed at which you can swing it to get the maximum momentum possible. I doubt that optimal point is the same for all hitters, especially young ones...in other words do what works for you.




Thank you!!!
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by Rays Fan:
quote:
Bat speed must be generated early in the swing or it is wasted effort.

For all of you PCR lover's:
"Bat speed must be generated early in the swing or it is wasted effort."

Hope you caught that!


I've removed a very cruel response I posted last night. Especially in lieu of a post on BBF where you stated that you don't know what PCR is.

Connor, I don't believe you can explain what PCR is. I am certain that you can't explain swing thoughts from the last year and a half presented by Steve E. I'm refering to precise definitions along with recent drills. Your post and reference here are out of place and so, I question your agenda.

Also, understand that if your posting pattern is going to be to hijack threads with this agenda then you won't be on this site for long. PCR was not mentioned anywhere in this thread. Your posting pattern demonstrates that you're no better than the guys you commented on at BBF who continue to post on MM. Knowing that PCR is not present in the post and in lieu of your remark, I'd have to wonder again as to your agenda AND would understand recent changes on this site regarding yourself in a clearer light. (That is as nice as I can make it since the post I removed was very mean but truthful. It would include again the need for you to stop dispensing information when your swing needs a lot of attention.)

I'm eagerly awaiting that pm concerning what PCR is. I'm also counting on you not running to others to define it. You made the statement, step up to the definition and all of info requested.
Last edited by CoachB25
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Uh guys......there is a lot of animosity and really advanced (at least to me) scientific equation thingys just to talk about a .........



..........Little League bat.

I honestly doubt Little Johnny will understand 1/1,000,000,000th of what was said here. In fact I only understand about 1/100,000,000th of what was said.

This is why I rarely come into the hitting forum. I would love to sit around and talk hitting but heaven forbid I actually post something someone doesn't agree with. It would hurt my feelings overall.
M Metropop10+ posts
No, I don't think all kids should swing a - 12 or whatever the coach suggested. Get them a bat they feel comfortable with and let em hit.

I am constantly reminded of the competitiveness of coaches for these young kids and my first thought is that they are more concerned with having success at the youth level than developing sound young ball players. Yeah, I am kinda old school in my thinking and all the physics blow past me like a 99 mph heater, but I have said it more than once on here that kids are developing cruddy swings using these composite bats. I don't think a 9-10 yr old has the frame to handle a drop 3 but a drop 12 swing cannot be the same swing that will be needed to be successful in high school or beyond.

It is my humble opinion that if you want to build a decent ball player, teach them to hit with a little wood bat. The weight variance will be much closer to what they will have to swing as the progress and if you can hit consistently using wood, by all means use the composite come game time because you still can. I am sure some pro players never picked up wood until they were drafted, but I think its a pretty safe approach with learning how to hit.
S switchitter100+ posts
bat speed is more important at this age. Bat weight is very important as well but not as much. This is due to the fact that kids at 10 years-old will benefit more with bat speed than they will with bat weight because of the fact that they can't get the weight around at their size. The least significant variable is the speed at which the ball is pitched,,,it has the lesser affect than the other two.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by switchitter:
bat speed is more important at this age. Bat weight is very important as well but not as much. This is due to the fact that kids at 10 years-old will benefit more with bat speed than they will with bat weight because of the fact that they can't get the weight around at their size. The least significant variable is the speed at which the ball is pitched,,,it has the lesser affect than the other two.




The question in my mind, is would you change a kid from a -9 to a -12 if he was easily handling the -9? Even more important to the thread topic, is would you make him spend the money to buy a new bat when the one he owns is quite sufficient.
G Gameth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWagner:
There is nothing wrong with what the coach is saying. A lighter bat will be able to be swung faster and speed vs. weight is the most important factor.




Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! If that were true bats would be made out of Balsa wood. Their is a point at which the weight of the bat will help build strength in younger kids and even help with getting through the ball. Can you hit a ball as far with a wiffle bat as you can a -3 bat??? Bat length and weight are things that are unique to each hitter or all Pro bats would be the same. Things like this is why kids don't develop early as players, poor instruction.


Lets assume the bats are made of the same material at least before you go using analogies that are not even close.

Speed is the key factor to ball exit speed not the weight of the bat. This has been proven over and over in studies.

Yes, weight plays a factor but it is not as important as bat speed.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Lets assume the bats are made of the same material at least before you go using analogies that are not even close.

Speed is the key factor to ball exit speed not the weight of the bat. This has been proven over and over in studies.

Yes, weight plays a factor but it is not as important as bat speed.




I agree, but you can swing the bat too fast for your hands to bear and this is the problem with painting everyone with the same brush. Certain people, with proper mechanics can swing a bat 5ozs. heavier without losing any batspeed.
B baseballfever2410+ posts
quote:
Certain people, with proper mechanics can swing a bat 5ozs. heavier without losing any batspeed.


How is that possible? Are you saying that a certain person could swing a 25oz bat just as fast as he could swing a 20oz bat using the same mechanics? To me logic would say using the same mechanics I should be able to swing the 20oz bat faster. Probably the most important thing that I haven't read yet is where is bat speed important, and I think all would agree that any bat speed gained after ball contact would be wasted. And in my humble opionion logic tells me that it would be easier to generate early bat speed with a lighter bat.
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