(coaches) player errors and hitting, being fair.

All players are not equal in the coaches eyes.  It is a harsh reality.  You are applying logic to the illogical.   Learn to accept it and you'll save yourself a lot of aggravation. 

well said fenway.....as objective as you think it would be it is not...there are also a lot of intangibles that are in play in a coaches decisions.

I'm sure there's a body of work behind some of these decisions.

I don't think I would pull Ozzie Smith or Derek Jeter because they had a few games where they had errors.

Or sit a great hitter (you name some) that had a few bad at bats.

It all may come down to how much $$$ you shell out to the boosters? (Kidding! Well, sort of)

To add more info this is a JV team with a mixture of freshman and sophomores. Some freshman are getting more action than other freshman. I thought this was the time to see what they all have not just a chosen few. The chosen few have their share of errors. Oh and not to mention if you are a pitcher only. I really feel bad for a couple of them because 1 has only pitched during 2 games out of over a dozen.  

bbm4life,

You’re asking for something impossible to give. Who plays and who sits is completely up to the JVHC, of course with input from the VHC. The only way to even get an idea about why things happen the way they do, is to try to see things from the HC’s perspective.

You can look purely at the stats, but that has to be weighed with what’s going on in practices, reports on grades and class attendance, injuries, and private meetings between the players and the HC where he may know certain things not even parents are aware of. IOW, it’s a very complicated thing. Anyone here can and will tell you what they believe is morally correct, but without having a great deal more to go on, going much further than that isn’t really doing anyone any good.

All is not fair in the world.

Coaches usually rely on things other than just game performance.  Maybe the kids making the errors are usually sure handed, maybe the hitters are having an off day.  You have to remember that games are only are small portion of the performance the coach sees.  Maybe those not getting game time are not impressing the coach in practice for one reason or another. Maybe effort or attitude.

Granted, the coach could be wrong - but they do have the advantage of not looking at the situation with parent's eyes.

This reminds me of a father of a pitcher on my son's (JV) team. During the fall the dad sat in the stands telling all of us how his son wasn't getting a chance to show what he can do on the mound.  His son his a 5'4 120 lb lefty who may top out at 60 mph. As the dad tells it though, "He has great movement".

Anyway, the kid finally gets his shot on the mound late in the fall.  The first pitch he threw had good movement all the way over the left field fence, across the street, over a second fence, and onto an airport runway. He gave up about 6 or 7 consecutive hits before the coach went out and pulled him.

So in other words, sometimes the coaches know a lot more than than we parents give them credit for.

First of all, any time you hear this sort of whining from a player or a parent, you need to take it with a huge dose of salt.  It is highly unlikely that this story is the whole story.

Secondly, ask yourself (a) if you ever show preferences among various people you know and (b) if so, why.  I'll bet the answer to (a) is "yes", and the answer to (b) involves all sorts of perfectly rational reasons.  Your high school coach is very likely no different from any others of us in this regard.

The fact is, some players earn preferential treatment through their grades, their behavior on and off the field, their hustle, their attitude in responding to the mistakes that everyone inevitably makes, etc.  Others seem determined to do everything in their power to act like they can do as they darned well please and yet still be entitled to equal treatment.  In my experience, the latter group does most of this type of complaining; no one who knows the full situation is willing to provide a sympathetic ear, yet they prattle on about it endlessly.

The solution is to be self-critical.  If you seem to be getting the short end of the stick, be honest with yourself about whether you are doing what you should do to be a favored player.  For the most hopelessly egocentric among us, this is a futile exercise, but in the end most of those of us who are our own worst enemies either figure it out and change their self-destructive behaviors, or go on to a lifetime of victimhood.

Yes. This is an almost hypothetical discussion. In general, some HS players might get to
"survive" more mistakes and bad ABs because they've earned a few bad games based on past performance. A bubble player might not get some same latitude/treatment. And unless the coaches deeply share their ongoing thought processes, it is mostly conjecture.

Here are 2 major differences and possibilities that may answer the original questions:

Some players make errors on balls that another kid would have never even been near. While some kids make errors on balls right at them.

Some players make outs with a good swing, others make outs with bad swings.

THIS ... is good advice.

It all has to do with how hot the player's mom is. 

I'm very sympathetic with the view here that practices and scrimmages give coaches an opportunity to evaluate their players' abilities much better than those who only see them in games; particularly early season games when the rust is getting knocked off and the jitters are settling down.

Another couple of observations:

(1) In the large majority of situations, the coaches who routinely choose to sit the better players in favor of worse players, lose...and losing coaches eventually lose jobs.

(2) As a parent, it's extraordinarily difficult to compare a son's play with that of a competing player's. Somehow, errors for the competing player seem more egregious and frequent than when compared to those of a son's. At some point, parents have to come to understand that their sons are going to be subjected to the evaluation of those who evaluate more objectively and whose jobs depend upon winning (see #1 above).

It's going to be a long four years if you're worried about unfairness....real or imagined it's wasted energy. Focus on what your son can control, and with an honest effort chances are good his prospects will improve.  Adversity should be a great motivator.  My own is learning that very lesson.

As coaches I think we develop kids we can trust in situations more than others.  I don't think its favortisim in most cases.  You also have to understand how to put together a lineup, possible subtitutions, pinch runners, etc. A coach has to be thinking about all the what ifs.

The best advice I can give is for players to become adept at many positions.  When a coach can reliably put a kid in many places that certainly helps.  My own son (whom I don't coach)  is going to college as a catcher yet he's only started behind the plate twice out of seven games.  Coach has needed him to play first and pitch the other games.  

Four years ago I was in your shoes.  I worried about all the small stuff.  The past two years I don't worry about it anymore because it doesn't mean crap.  My son's college coach has never been to any of his games.  College coaches know how to evaluate and find talent.  You just have to put yourself in a position to be seen.  Camps, showcases, summer teams, scouts recommendations etc are the way.

HS players practice every day and only play games occasionally.  Yes, eventually, they need to perform in games to excel and earn more PT than the next guy.  But it usually becomes quite clear who the better players are at practices.  If you said there is a player who has a great attitude and is hitting the ball consistently harder than any other player and isn't getting a fair share of PT, that would raise questions.  But you are comparing two players who both ground out a lot.  You are saying some players have multiple errors and stay in the game.  As FYI, on almost every HS and college team, the SS will have the most E's because of the nature of the position and type of plays/throws that are required.  Yet, the SS is usually one of the best, if not the best player on the team.

JV is typically for development and most players should see some playing time but there is a balance with trying to give the team a chance to win.  The better players and/or those who work hardest and show the most potential to contribute some day to V will get more playing time than those less talented or those that show less desire to play the game.  Differences between the two are often difficult to distinguish by emotionally attached parents.  Heck, sometimes it is difficult to distinguish for unbiased coaches who are with them every day.  But usually not

I just suggested a re-direction of focus for you on one of your other posts, so I won't repeat.  I do hope you find the info on this site helpful.

Best wishes!

There are two courses of action to this situation ...

Piss and moan and become a cancer to the team, or

Stay physically and mentally prepared for when the opportunity comes.

Oh so that's why my son never sits!

Once you start down this road its a very slippery slope and one very few ever recover from. First of all a tough hard nosed baller would never even start down this road. He would simply roll up his sleeves and prove the coach wrong. Looking at other people and trying to justify your place by saying they are just as bad proves what?

Stop making errors. Drive the baseball and get on base. Clearly out play the competition and you won't have to wonder what's going on. It's kind of like the parent that says "My son did just as good as the other kids." That doesn't cut it in sports. It's not about doing as good as the other guys. It's about doing better than the other guys and leaving no doubt.

When you have to look at other players performance to justify your performance there is a huge red flag for me. If you don't want to have to think or wonder about these things go out and earn the playing time straight up. If you think you have done that and your still not playing then you thought wrong. Change the coaches opinion of you as a player by simply being the better option. The clear better option.

When I hear someone talk like you talked in your post I see the faces of many players over the years. And none of them ever made it back up that slope. Why? Because they were looking to blame someone for their failure. Instead of looking in the mirror and understanding that the only person responsible for their baseball is them. And your attitude and approach to these types of situations is dead wrong.

Sorry but that is just my advice. Take it or leave it. Man up or whine. It's up to you.

It's society where everyone deserves a ribbon.  Not on the diamond or any other sport, especially HS or College athletics. 

It's a harsh reality that for many coddled kids, hard to swallow.  However, the good news is they can learn a good lesson that will make them a better person long after baseball.

This is usually more a parent's issue than a player's issue. The kids usually know how they fit on a team. If it really is the player complaining, there has been too much coddling going on IMO.

I know what kid's will go through a brick wall for me, and I know what kid's give me the best chance to win. Some of my veterans have been on some big stages, and in some real pressure cookers, I know who I want up to bat or who should be on the hill in at these times regardless of what the stats say.

I agree with Coach_May, your son can choose to work harder, or can constantly blame everyone else. My son was one of the better pitchers on a very good JV team last year, but didn't seem to get the ball much. When he did get the ball, he performed well, but he was frustrated in that he felt the other pitcher was the coaches favorite and got the ball more often. Instead of complaining or blaming it on the coach, he worked hard throughout the season and used the opportunities he was given to show what he could do. He also worked extremely hard during the off season to be ready and now on varsity, he is one of the go to guys. He is still working as hard but his perseverance is paying off. 

TL;DR (mostly). If you want to beat out the guy in front of you, the easiest way is to be good enough and/or work hard enough to make it impossible for them to keep you on the bench.

At HS age and above, that's the only thing in your control, and the only thing you should worry about. Focusing on other player's perceived shortcomings, or any political issues doesn't do you any good and can do you plenty of harm even if you're right.

Some HS coaches just prefer the guys they know to the guys they are just getting to know.  We had a kid on our team this year -- a junior -- who was 1st team all league as a Sophomore.  Great sophomore year. But he really truly sucked this year.  K'd in nearly  40% of his at bats. K'd 18 times in his first 30 AB's to start the year.  He eventually cut down on the K's a bit.    Lousy OBP, lousy slugging %, lousy .BA.  No injury to explain it  though he was out briefly for a couple of weeks in the middle of this all).   He just flat out sucked all season.   But you know what?   The coach kept batting him 2nd and/or 3rd almost the entire season.  Finally,  as playoffs approached,  he moved him down to 7th, but kept putting him out there and the kid kept sucking. Felt bad for the kid.  Great kid, great teammate,  but everybody could see that he wasn't the same player as last year -- except maybe the coach, who seemed to think that any day now....    Meanwhile other guys are busting their butts in practice thinking they might get a chance,  since this former "stud"  is doing nothing.   But the coach never thought twice about it.  Sent him out there game after game after game.  Other guys,  would get in the line up for a start or an at bat here or there.  If they failed to produce,  that was basically it.  One kid started three or four games early on.  Didn't produce and never got a single at bat for the rest of the season.   Our  coach basically decided, it seems, that he was going to live or die with his  vets -- wherever he had a vet. Absolutely no degree of failure was going to make him sit a  vet in favor of a non- vet.   

It's his team, of course, and he can play it the way he wants.   But it sure didn't make the bench players feel like they actually had a realistic chance of cracking the line-up. And ours is a competitive program, with lots of players who are baseball ambitious and play for strong summer/fall teams.  So it's  not like our bench players were just scrubs who have no resumes.  

But it's true, as several people here have noted,  if you are going to succeed, you can't let that kind of thing sap your motivation or eat away at you.   You have to turn it into fuel for your fire and desire.   At some point,  if you are better and demonstrably better,  even a coach with blinders on will be forced to see.  It may take longer than you want.  But the point is that you have to control what you can control.  And you have to cope with what you can't control. 

It's worth noting that statistical variance is a bitch (that's a "technical" term I picked up playing poker, not a dig at anyone here).

HS Varsity season here is 26 games, that's an incredibly small sample. For a full-time regular that's 75-100 PAs, maybe as few as 60-75 AB.

For reference:

A .350 hitter will hit .200 or less about 1% of the time in a 60 AB sample. A .300 hitter will do it about 7% of the time. A .275 hitter will do it 12% of the time.

A .275 hitter will hit .150 or less in 60 AB about 2% of the time, A .250 hitter will do it almost 5% of the time.

A .250 hitter will hit .100 or less about as often as he hits .400 or better in a 30 AB sample (4-5% of the time).

Given human nature and confirmation bias, it's really easy to think the .250 hitter hitting .400 in part-time play is better than the .300 hitter who's hitting .200 while starting, even though the latter event is actually more common.

Excellent post!  But it works both ways round.   A coach who decides on the basis of the outcomes of a few tough AB's that a certain struggling kid CAN'T hit (and should be benched) or a coach who decides on that same basis that a struggling kid CAN hit  (and deserves his chance to "work his way out of it")  is whistling in the wind, so to speak.   As a side note,  think of  Carlos Santana, of the Cleveland Indians.  Historically, a tremendous hitter.  But he is having a terrible time this year.  Indians  GM said when asked the other day that they have given zero thought to sending him down to work things out.  He said that they KNOW that he is an excellent hitter.  Now the  sample size on which they base this is HUGE.  Indeed, in comparison to the HS sample size, it's absolutely astronomical.   

All in all, I'd say it's pretty darned hard to make really reliable judgments about who will and won't  produce, given what chances, in a HS season. 

Interesting to read how parents study the stats of other players and then use the stats of other players to support the position they want to advocate. 

Our son's former HS coach will be leaving the school after 27 years as the Head Coach. Took over a program which was 0-22 and was in complete disarray.

They have over 500 wins in those 27 years and 6-7(?) CCS championships, along with being in the CCS Championship game the last 5 years.  In our son's senior year, they competed with 11 players and no field for 2/3's of the season, with no excuses.

This is a cut and paste of a CCS quarterfinal game they played yesterday as the 12 seed against the 4 seed, which illustrates coaching is not a perfect science. Those who post and second guess and Monday morning coaching decisions do so without the accountability. This coach did it with an entire team relying on him..and knowing this could be the last game he ever coaches at his HS.

"The bases were loaded with one out for the second straight inning, pitchers Garrett Matsuda and Wyatt Dricoll were both warmed up in the bullpen, and Rich, who did not have much starting experience on the season, seemed to be tightening up in the later innings.

Schoof had made this same journey to the pitching slab countless times during his 27-year career as Menlo's head coach, and not once had he allowed a pitcher to talk his way into staying in a game.

But as Schoof jogged back to the Knights' dugout, Rich remained firmly entrenched in the middle of the diamond.

"It really wasn't much of a conversation," Schoof said of his talk with Rich. "I was coming out to get him . . . and he said 'no I want the ball.' We had been talking all year about guys wanting the ball, wanting to hit and wanting the ball hit at them. So, when he said that, I went 'what the heck, let's go with it.' "

Rich rewarded Schoof's his decision, as the underclassman induced a double play from cleanup hitter Davante Scott to end the inning, and finished up a six-hit shutout to help No. 12 seed Menlo (19-12) defeat No. 4 seed Santa Cruz, 4-0, and advance to the semifinals of the Division II playoffs.

"That's something Rich will never forget, because he bowed his neck and decided this is my game I'm going to do it," Schoof said.

Rich seemed surprised when told he was the first pitcher that successfully convinced Schoof to stay in a game, and the sophomore was grateful to his retiring coach for the opportunity.

"I've really been honored by the faith coach has had in me this year," Rich said. "The confidence that he's had in me these last couple of games has been tremendous, and it really helps me out on the mound."

I hear you Billy Wildly.   There is CERTAINLY a ton of BS in HS sports -- a ton.  All kinds of conflicts of interests, especially since HS coaches --at least in public schools --  are paid peanuts.   Here many, many HS coaches give private lessons,  coach travel teams, own training facilities, etc.  It's these things that they make the bulk of their dough from.  Too many try to use their HS school teams as ways of funneling more players into their money making operations.  One of our coaches was directly accused by several parents of engaging in a pay for play scheme.  Not saying it's true since I don't know first hand.  But the accusation was openly made and the coach is no longer with our program. So I suspect there may well have been something to it.    So it's far from a pure "them that gets, gets what they deserve"  system.  Far from it. 

Maybe at a rich private school like Menlo school, where parents pay 30K a year in tuition and have the benefit of  college level facilities and probably coaches who are paid real salaries, it's different.   But at the public schools in California, it's a WHOLE different story.  

By the way,  player stats are, of course,  all over the place these days in HS sports -- they aren't kept secret and you don't have to go out of your way to notice them.  Our team broadcast updated stats after every game via Gamechanger.  Stats are also regularly posted on Maxpreps. So they are just out there for all to see. I don't get this line that you shouldn't use stats to evaluate whether the right guys are in the right place.  What else should you use?  Coach's intuition?   Of course, there are stats and there are stats.  Crude old fashioned stats don't really tell you all that much -- especially given smallness of sample size for HS season.  And I doubt that many HS coaches dabble in advanced stats of the sabremetric sort. 

Billy, a few observations on your posting:

1.) So long as you are living baseball through your son, as you readily admit, you are going to be living in a state of emotional turmoil.  Do you realize that in college the scholarship guy will get plenty more chances than the walk-on, even when the walk-on is the better player. In Milb, the 3rd round choice is going to get all the chances even though the 25th rounder performs better every time the chance opens. In Milb, the 25th rounder's coach isn't even allowed to put the kid in the starting line up if the message from the  Milb Director is the 3rd rounder players.

2.) Your son is not a better player by tearing down the kid playing short or the coach. The more you tear down the current shortstop and focus on his stats, the less you enjoy the game, and my guess is the more you vocalize the less fun it is for your son.

3.) You are probably poster #100(or more) just this HS season who has posted a similar tale, including the poster who started this thread.  If you read other threads, you find plenty of comments that HS coaches are just like everything in life. Some are awesome, some are mediocre and some are terrible. You cannot control the coach and picking every stat to demean the coach and shortstop does nothing to make you look good or make your son a better player.

4.) In HS, no D1 coach in the nation thought our son could play at that level. Who cares what the HS coach told your nephew and whether he said it nicely or not. Players prove coaches and the system wrong all the time. Your nephew appears to have the potential to be one. Our son was another.  None who prove the system wrong do that by having parents live through their baseball.  They do it by outworking their peers in strength and condition, on the field, finding that one guy who believes in them, and proving they belong when the opportunity comes their way.  Stated another way, no matter how much you live through your son, you cannot make his experience better on the baseball field.  Only your son can do that and hopefully you will support him in controlling the things he can and in your learning to support him in a similar way.

Right now your son needs to control what he can, which is getting better on the baseball field, no matter who gets in his way and no matter how unjust you view the cards he is dealt. My perspective is you are doing him absolutely no good by living baseball through your son, especially if, as you say, you didn't have it and all you can see is the injustice being done to "both of you."

"Maybe at a rich private school like Menlo school, where parents pay 30K a year in tuition and have the benefit of  college level facilities and probably coaches who are paid real salaries, it's different.   But at the public schools in California, it's a WHOLE different story."

SluggerDad,

I wonder why you glossed over the comment about our son's team having 11 players and no field for 2/3's of the season, because it was one unplayable field of mud.  You seem to have a major issue with the "grass is greener" elsewhere and the woe is me story. If you feel better finding comfort in all the "injustice," I wonder how much you will enjoy how much fun watching your son play baseball will ever be.  It gets more challenging every step of the way in baseball and you and Billy and others will have less to no say in "justifying the injustice" being done to your son as they hopefully progress. 

Coach,  honest question.   What do you actually do to give your bench players a fair chance to prove themselves? Can I assume that if your veteran  "proven" guys  are producing, you won't sit them in favor of bench guys.  Can I also assume that if the proven guys are not producing, at the moment,  you'll give them a chance to right themselves?  That seems only reasonable,  since baseball is a game of hot and cold streaks  (at least offensively).   At practice do you give the bench guys equal reps, or do you mostly make them shag, say,   while the starters are hitting, for example? Do you work with the bench players and the starters equally or do the bench players get your attention rarely?  If a bench guy does somehow get his chance,  how much rope does he have to hang himself with?  As much as you afford the starters or a lot less?

Aren't you the same poster asking if you should disclose or conceal from college coaches how consistent back spasms is the reason for, as you see it, less than expected junior year HS stats?  If your son could not perform because of back spasms, how can a HS coach rely on him as the season progresses, especially after you already posted he did not perform well early in the season when given the opportunity, because of the pressure.

Good gracious, is it the coach, the back, the pressure, or other things..maybe Dad?

I'm just asking you an honest question about how you handle bench players and how they can prove themselves to you.   That wasn't a personal attack.  It was just trying to get this thread focused on what coaches can/should do and what players can/should do.  No need to be defensive. 

I don't have any issue with the grass being greener.  I do wish that public schools would put more money into their programs.  But that's an issue for State of California, local school boards etc.  Partly because we pay so little, it's a little hard to get true quality guys and quality coaches, with no conflicts of interests, to coach for us.   Again, that's not your problem, it's our problem.  But it definitely affects the atmosphere.  Also explains why in public schools there is often so much coaching turn-over.  A lot of real duds find their way into public school programs. 

What would I have to be defensive about?  Our son's playing career is over.