Coaching cursing at players

I would say it's not what words he's using, it's how he's using them.

it's not ok, just proves your and uneducated, uncivilized JOCK.

 

My son has always looked at the delivery and the message rather than the actual words used. He said his high school coach could be vulgar at times. He said sometimes it was funny. He's never been bothered by the language any of his coaches have ever used. I've never worried about things that haven't bothered him. 

Example - get my f'ing signs right or I will pull you out of this F'ing game right the F now. Not so much the words that bothered my kid but the fact that he yelled it across the field with a bleacher full of parents. I would rather he just actually pulled him and told him why he was pulled which I think would have made for a better lesson learned. 

 

Agreed. Cursing in general doesn't bother either of us but I don't think yelling it out on the field or even in the dugout for that matter serves the purpose in which one is getting paid for. It really isn't that serious. It's 14u travel ball. My example posted above. 

Sigh...I can swear with the best of them, and I am the furthest thing from any of those three descriptors.

 

Got you, Matt13. 

I was sitting on my hands. I'm trying to be nicer about grammar and spelling, I swear.

I coach at the HS level and I try to set the example by not swearing and I also (within reason) hold the players accountable for their language. 

That said, I am aware that many coaches at the HS and college level are known to curse quite regularly.  Most of my son's college coaches have been high ranking members of the club. (Just about every coach I ever had was certainly a member but that was long ago and not necessarily relevant today.)   Also, cursing is typically quite prevalent among the HS age kids when they are socializing amongst themselves.  I agree that not every kid is motivated by being cursed at but I believe each and every kid has a unique set of motivators.  However, matching the player with they type of coach he responds to best is usually not a realistic option.  Most often, it is impossible to shield your son from being around people who curse.  So, at 15 (HS age), I think it's about time to start teaching/parenting/mentoring him on how to deal with these situations instead of always trying to prevent him from being in the situation to begin with.  Now, there is also some truth to Matt's comment.  If the cursing is particularly abusive or more personal than general, different story.

 

I will also add... you said you are paying for travel ball.  Many travel/club organizations have some general written guidelines.  If cursing is posted as something that is not tolerated or if there is other reference regarding character expectations, you are certainly within your rights to ask how the coach's cursing fits into those stated guidelines.  

OK, getting mixed messages... so now it sounds like you and son were more embarrassed that he was called out in front of others than you were offended by the cursing.  That is understandable and it is a hard thing to hear, as the player or the parent.  Again, I think most here agree that pulling a kid aside and discussing a mistake in a constructive manner is the right way to handle things.  However, if a kid isn't responding to the nice nurturing method, at some point, he is going to get openly called out.  Certainly, some coaches are quicker to pull that trigger than others.  But again, if your son loves to play the game, he will need to learn how to deal with different types of coaching styles, good and bad teammates, bad umpires, bad fields, bad weather, etc., etc. and not let those things affect his desire to play.

Thank you coach very much for your feedback. it doesn't seem my son is bothered by the language at all. He hears the f-bomb dropped by players and probably has dropped it himself. I think he is bothered by the delivery. Being cursed at in front of the opposing team and a bleacher full of parents is a little embarrassing. I guess the message is he needs to deal with that embarrassment and do his best to let it roll off his back.  It does however impact his wanting to play the sport he loves and I think he is quickly losing respect for his coach...thanks again

Looks like we are doing alot of typing at the same time

 

I think it is OK for your son to lose respect for the coach as a human being if his behavior doesn't reflect the way your son thinks a human being should act.  He just needs to maintain respect for the coach's position as the decision maker of the team and continue to work hard to earn his spot and help his teammates reach their collective goal, whatever that may be.

 

"It does however impact his wanting to play the sport he loves"

 

It has been my observation over the years that this is one of the biggest factors for players leaving a sport before their ability prevents them from reaching the next step.  There are always more and more obstacles as the player moves up the ladder.  Does he love the game enough and have the work ethic to push past the obstacles? 

 

 

It has been my observation over the years that this is one of the biggest factors for players leaving a sport before their ability prevents them from reaching the next step.  There are always more and more obstacles as the player moves up the ladder.  Does he love the game enough and have the work ethic to push past the obstacles? 

 

I call it "excuses" for the lack of passion to meet the objectve. "It's the coach's fault I didn't play high school ball. He was mean to me." 

The thing about coaches is that they come in so many different stripes.  Some coaches are great human beings, great teachers, great motivators who love the game and love their players and know how to get the best out of each one. Some are lousy human beings, small men with big problems, who don't seem to especially like teenagers or even themselves, but know the game even if not much else.  Some  coaches and some players are like oil and water. Unfortunately, you don't get to choose your coach for the most part.   When player and coach are a mismatch in any way, it's the player who has to adjust.  Bottom line, a player has  to learn somehow to play for the coach he has, not the coach he wishes he had. For a young teenager that is sometimes a hard thing to learn. 

Doesn't mean he has to "like it" or pretend that the coach is something he is not. A foul mouth sob is a foul mouthed sob. I neither like nor respect most foul mouthed sob's that I have met. I especially don't get it when grown men with power feel entitled to address kids with no power in that way.  If the coach really is a foul mouthed SOB, who habitually curses at those under his power with no power to fight back, then it's more then okay for him lose respect for the coach as a  human being.  Even so, he needs to learn to play for the coach despite not respecting him as a person.

It would be a shame too if one foul mouthed sob could rob him of his passion for the game and drive him away from it before he reaches his ceiling.  It is such a grand game and there are many amazing people involved in it and many great coaches out there.

(I should say that there are exceptions within limits to the mostly hard and fast rule that you can't choose your coach.  Travel ball is the one place where to a certain extent that is possible. For example almost our entire 18 roster from last year basically refused to play with the same team again -- even though the group had been together for several years and highly successful. And it happened over issues with a coach.  The long and short is that this is big organization that fields teams at many levels with not enough quality coaches to go around -- at least last year.  The 18u coach in particular was a disaster in the eyes of many.  Lots of the guys made it clear that they were not willing to play for him again. He was apparently asked back though. I guess coaches are hard to find, even in the travel industry.  But players were really serious about not playing for him again. Consequently that organization is  not fielding an 18u team this year. The players are spread over several different teams now.  But that is extreme and unusual. )

This is coming up more frequently than in the past.

 

I have a question:  Would it be OK for the Captain of the team or the "dugout leader" to dig into other players in front of the team?  Cuss at them?  Question their effort?

 

What would people think if Dad outside the fence unloaded during the game?

 

Clearly all of these people normally would be highly motivated to get the best from Johnny so if coach is OK more must be better. 

 

sf, I am not sure the lesson to be learned here is needing to deal with the embarrassment, do his best and let if roll off.  It seems, from what you have posted, that the lesson is to learn the signs and follow the signs which seems like something a 15 year old can do. Whatever the player did or did not do with the signs is what led to the coaches reaction, from your posting, thus far. To my reading, the coach sounds like he is frustrated because the player keeps making similar mental mistakes with the signs.  The message seems clear even though the delivery can be open to question.

This is the only comment that worries me.  If the behavior of a coach is going impact his desire to play the game, he's going to have a hard time moving forward.  Regardless of whether people think this is right or wrong, it's more than likely going to continue to happen as he moves up the ladder.  If your son is 14, he will have more than one HS coaches to deal with.  Chances are at least one will be tough on the kids.  If he makes it to college, chances are really good he will have a coach that is hard on him.  If he lets outside forces dictate whether or not he wants to play the game, he will have a really hard time.  

 

My son's college coach loves to curse and get ticked off at the players.  Much more so his freshman year than his sophomore year.  He would always tell us stories of guys getting cussed out.  I asked him at one point if he ever got cussed out.  He said not that he knew of.  What??  How would you not know?  He said coach will sit in the dugout and cuss guys out to himself while they are on the field.  Well, one day, he gave up a 2 run HR and coach went out to get him.  He got an earful.  We asked what he said and he told us, without the cuss words.  I asked him how much he cussed and he said he didn't know, he lost count.  I asked my son if it bothered him and he said no.  His love for the game has nothing to do with how a coach talks to him.  

 

The point is, like others have said, if he stays in the game, he WILL have coaches he doesn't like and who treat him in a way he doesn't like.  He cannot let that affect his love for the game and his desire to play.  He needs to learn how to deal with it if he wants to continue to play.  Maybe he can leave this summer team and find a coach he likes more.  But at some point he will wind up with a coach he doesn't like on a team that he cannot just leave.  What will he do then?  In my opinion, he needs to learn how to deal with it.  His love for the game should over ride any outside influence.

Thanks to all for your comments.  Much appreciated.  It seems the better lesson would be for my son to find a way to deal with this coach and his outbursts which aren't that often but are a pretty bad display of leadership and behavior when it does happen.  I see a huge shift in my kids body language and play after a chewing out.  He does not get motivated by it.  He gets pissed within himself and starts throwing crappy and playing crappy.  Never talks, just internalizes it and plays badly.  Maybe this is the turning point when you realize, this isn't your sport.  Great advice by everyone here.  To clarify, this isn't a grown man cursing at the team, this is a kid who is only 6 yrs older than the players.  Its a confusing dynamic as one day he is their buddy, then the next coaching by intimidation.  Keep in mind, my sons reaction will be to get pissed.  We've all watched a game when the pitcher gets pissed and really starts playing like crap cause he can't get out of his own head.  That's what happens.  While he gets pissed and extremely disappointed in himself, I am the one writing with the issue, not my kid.  I am the one trying to determine if parenting should come before baseball which is why I value all of your opinions.

Yes, I blame my son for not speaking up to the coach to tell him that he cannot understand the signs he's giving.  I asked why he didn't tell him and he said because he just gets more pissed.  I had three different family's come to me puzzled by the coaches comments to my kid as we were trying to understand what he did wrong.  We were losing, coach was pissed and he was very sloppily putting his sign down in a way where you could hardly understand what he as doing .  Three shakes of the wrist to the right, two to the left, up down, up down.  I can usually pick up the sign myself but on this day, I didn't know what the heck was happening.  I could venture to say bad on coach and player.  Still feel it would have been a better lesson learned to pull the kid and tell him why then to threaten to pull the kid to the point every parent, opposing team, even the umpire removing his mask and looking over as to say "what's this guys problem". Thank you for your reply I totally understand your point. 

SF, your son is not alone.  It certainly is not uncommon for kids this age to start running into this type of issue with sports and other aspects of life.  We don't know the level of passion your son has for the game, so maybe it isn't his sport or maybe it is.  The "bigger picture" point is that when he does find his passion, he is willing and prepared to push through the obstacles and stick with it.  I think that's why we tend to take the "learn to deal with it" approach for the most part with our advice.

 

Best wishes and, personally, I hope he does find that his passion is baseball 

We purposely selected a team with a "hard ass" coach for my kid, knowing full well as he gets older, he see more of it.  Up until then it was "good job little Johnny.  Go get your juice box."  He has learned to deal with the harshness of the comments and has become a better player.  Good luck. 

Another angle on the Love of the Game thought and if HS kids should "just suck it up"

 

My son had a curser for a coach and took his fair share.  He looked at me one day and asked, "What is wrong with him?  It is High School Baseball for Christ's sake.  It is not life and death and I am doing this instead of working for money for college and chasing girls.  Why the hell should I keep doing it if it isn't any fun?"

 

Given that some very high percentage of players in HS never play afterward...it was a heck of a question for a 15 year old Sophomore to ask.

 

My answer to him was "You will probably live another 70 - 80 years and find that many people have odd perspectives on the importance of things.  Consider this your first experience with a man that has a cockeyed perspective and has no filter.  I promise you he will not be the last you see.  With that said if you want to quit and start moving on with your life that's OK with me.  Just know you are not just hanging around the house doing nothing."

 

So change the question around.  Is it wise for coaches to alienate talent to satisfy whatever itch he has when players have so many other worthwhile options available? 

 

Since it was just July 4th isn't it extraordinarily and uniquely American not to put up with s@#t and move on to greener pastures if you can?  Why are we telling 17 and 18 year kids to do something unproductive and un-American if they have reasonable alternatives? 

 

luv baseball, nothing wrong with moving on.  If you want to continue to play baseball, this is some of what you are probably going to have to deal with.  If you don't want to continue, that is fine too.  I think most of us are assuming that the OP is looking for advice because his son is going to want to continue playing baseball.  But, if he doesn't and chooses to move on, worse things can happen in life.

A coach should never call out one of his players in front of the fans or opposing team. There is no excuse for it I don't care how many signs he has missed, bad base running mistakes, bad pitches swung at, errors, lack of hustle, etc. Its not a matter of a kid being able to handle it or not. Its not a matter of a kid being tough enough to shake it off. Its a matter of respecting your players and your team. You have a powerful tool as a coach. Its called the line up card. And another powerful tool. Its called the ability to remove a player from the game.

 

When a coach calls a player out in front of the fans and opposing team he hurts the team. He brings a negative vibe to the team. He has not addressed the problem he has simply embarrassed the player. He is trying to let everyone know that he didn't have anything to do with it and that he is upset with the player. The players team mates will not respect the coach more for this. No the complete opposite.

 

Pull the player to the side and say "We have talked about you missing signs and its hurting the team. I am pulling you for the rest of the game until we get this worked out." The team mates see the consequences. The player sees the consequences. They respect the way you handled it. The player respects the way you handled it. He is now focused on fixing it instead of the way you handled it.

 

Coaches who do this type of stuff are more concerned with the way they are looked at for having a player mess up than they are fixing the problem. If your going to preach team and were all in this together and we have to have each others back. Then you call out one of your boys like that in front of the fans and opposing team its not going to cut it. In fact its piss poor coaching. And it shows your a freaking clown. When you send that runner home and he gets hosed by 5 feet do you get called out by the players? If your going to call out your team why not?

 

A coach should have a bigger picture in mind. He should be more concerned with getting it fixed than acting like a child when things don't go the way planned. If a player cant get motivated by being benched to fix the issue there is no fixing it. If you think your fixing it by calling players out like this your clueless. Your creating more issues than missing signs.

 

How many times do you drop the F bomb on kids before it loses its shock value? If your players are missing signs there are two ways to look at it. One the player is not focused and needs to learn to get focused. Two you didn't properly coach him. Now you either fix it by dropping F bombs across the field or you sit him down and get him focused.

As far as how you deal with this OP. You tell your son to get it right. To know the signs and not use this as an excuse to have a bad attitude. You messed up so fix it. Don't give the coach a reason to call you out. If he plays the game he is going to have to deal with this type of stuff from some coaches. If he played for me he wouldn't play until I could trust he can handle the signs. I wont curse him out or call him out I would just sit him out until he got it right. Some kids would rather be cursed at. Good luck

Very true.  Alternative view is all I am looking to add since there is a predisposition on this site to worship the opportunity to play.  Perhaps a step back and a breath can be useful.  Or said a little differently - is it worth it?  Only the people involved or the player can truly answer that.

 

 

Glad you added this coach.  It would be nice to have a coach like you described in your 1st post, but that is unrealistic to think that every coach would be that way.

I agree that if u overuse F bomb it looses it's intent/shock value. If you're a coach who asks a lot "what the hell was that", or "what the hell you doing?" Then uses the f bomb for big problems you ll get a better response from players. 

Use it all the time they tune you out and you end up looking silly and as a person who cannot control their reactions. You can come across as mental IMO.

A further thought.  In life, as in baseball,  you will often run into small men (or women) with big problems.  Sometimes those small men with their big problems have power over you. Though some here may disagree, I think it's really important to recognize when you are faced with a small man with big problems of his own.  That's because it can be tempting to take a small man's dysfunctional ways of handling their big problems as some sort of reflection on you.  It isn't necessarily so.  Some times, though,  you can add fuel to the small man's fire.  A  player is absolutely accountable for knowing the signs. Any coach would be upset by that.  But exactly how  a coach handles a player who either misses or doesn't know a sign, is at least as much and probably more  a reflection on the coach than the player.  

 

Bottom line,  learn the signs, do your thing, play your heart out.  That won't necessarily take you out of the line of fire of the small man with his big problems.   But it should help you avoid adding fuel to his internally stoked fires.    Do the best you can to do the things that any coach -- good or bad -- would hold a player accountable for.  But  beyond that, try not read too much about yourself from the small man's handling of his own big problems -- even if he happens to be your coach.  If you do everything for which you can reasonably be held accountable and he still does his best to make  life absolutely unbearable for you, then you  may have a decision to make. 

Slugger - I agree wholeheartedly.  It usually does not take very long to figure where the hot buttons are if you spend enough time with any person as coaches and players do. 

 

So a player playing a passive/aggressive approach of - Geez I don't know why he's going off - when in fact he is pounding on some hot button for the coach for 2 hours in practice 3 or 4 times a week is being a jerk in his own right.

 

On the flip side if the player does do it right and is reaching the point the whole experience is ultimately so negative it becomes a hassle, burden etc. then that player does have a decision to make on the trade off of playing vs. plowing through the noise. 

Second best post in this topic (the first being the one you posted beforehand.)

 

A dad, of course not.  A Captain or any teammate, of course.  The best teams police themselves.  Leaders rise and control a large portion.  A coach can't handle every issue, every negative thing all season long, at some point the players will stop listening, they will get tired of 'hearing it.'  Having leaders that step up and police the team makes the coaches voice much more powerful.

 

The real issue that I have noticed is teenagers are getting older much quicker in the ways of the world than ever before but less and less know how to lead.  More ships sailing with less Captains than ever before at each of these tournaments that I scout or watch.

What I always find ironic is the mental midget coaches that need to curse every time they speak, are the first to demand respect from parents and players. They won't dare allow them to speak in the same manner back to them.

The real issue that I have noticed is teenagers are getting older much quicker in the ways of the world than ever before but less and less know how to lead.

 

Too many of today's cupcakes are growing up having the parents step in and solve all their problems. Leadership comes from a sense of mental toughness. Too many kids today are mentally weak.

 

I was incensed with something my son's high school coach did to him. My son told me, "Shut up and live with it. I am. It will go away by itself." It did. A lot of parents would have stepped into the situation.

As a player, suck it up and get the job done. A little cursing.Big deal.

sfG son is 15. Coach is +6, so this is a VERY young coach with few years on his resume. Could it also be possible with such a young coach, that he is recently just out of college ball (or never in it, or at the rec level again or ??  and why he's working?) And if so, a generalized dissatisfaction with his "game" has led to his doling out frustrations on those who wouldn't dare challenge authority. It is a given that the current generation is much more prone to sprinkle in profanity as a normal part of discourse. Frustrating for us boomers yes, as we tend to reserve the 7 words for supreme emphasis. FWIW, it appears to be a factor here. But I'm not a PyschD. If Augie Garrido throws out some bombs (that's a funny vid  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY0_jeOUB6Q) those Longhorn players listen...intently. Passionate players grind it out no matter how many numskulls, and there are always a few here and there, call the shots. It's part of making him a man, and at the end of the day, another hurdle to the next level.  

I can never be a great coach. I never learned how to head bob like a pidgeon in an umpires face. Without the head bob the in your face emphasis is lacking.

It's not necessarily a frustration issue. People in their early experiences in authority tend to be more rigid and less personable in their leadership styles than those who have more experience. I've seen this (and to a small extent, was an example) with many junior NCOs in the Army. Most of them outgrow it.