College coach problems

My only experience is HS football, where I had to tolerate abusive coaching b/c there wasn't anywhere else to go.  I swallowed my anger and tried to redirect it into more weight work and conditioning.  However, if I could have left, I would have. 

I've always thought a good way of approaching the problem is to evaluate the coach as a person.  Is he a stable guy with a family, friends, etc?  Does he show love to the kids when he's not ripping them?  Does he ever engage in cruelty, as opposed to just chewing butt?  

One of my high school coaches was an undiagnosed alcoholic; another was an absolute loner with few close friends.  Neither was happy with themselves, and that's what took tough coaching over the top into nonsense and abuse.  

SUMOM3

Very proud of you son. Sounds like he will do great thing with his future!

I think this is a really important story and you have a son with a great head on his shoulders! I know you are so proud, and I would be too in your shoes. It sounds like he's got great things ahead of him. Best of luck to you guys!

That's unfortunate.  Sounds like the coach wanted to force him out, probably because of the injury.  Best wishes to your son.

If he led with .... told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there ... I wouldn’t expect any coach to respond any differently than the coach did. He also shouldn’t have brought other players into the conversation. 

Personally, I would've sat down with the HC, an AC I had a relationship with, and a captain. And just straight up asked "Is everything ok between us because I don't feel like it is for whatever reason and others are picking up on it as well." And take the conversation from there. Leading with... I'm not happy... kind of gave the coach his "out". 

On the other hand, it's good that he chose a school where baseball would take a backseat to academics. When it comes to D3 I think choosing a school for its academic reputation and having baseball as an added bonus is the best route to take. Only 10-15 kids are getting drafted from D3 every year. Put yourself in the best position to succeed beyond baseball at that point. 

SUMOM3 posted:

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies, and thank you Qhead for the great quote... I needed that laugh.  It’s been a tough day, I heard from my son a few hours ago.  He met with his coach and decided to walk away.  He’s done with baseball.  I’m really sad, but also proud of him.  Transferring isn’t an option for him because he is in a great school for his major.  I’ll explain what happened in a second, but wanted to say one thing first... there’s been a lot of talk here about the pros and cons of tough coaches... so I do want to be clear that my son has had tough coaches... the kind who scream and yell and somehow in their madness are making you a better, stronger player.  I’m ok with that... I actually like that tough love approach.  I remember one game in HS - my son was throwing a no hitter shut out, but had a few bad moments in the 6th inning and walked the 7th and 8th batters.  It didn’t matter how well he was pitching or that we were up by a lot... his high school coach started screaming, threw his clipboard and shattered it because “you never walk the bottom of the lineup!!!”  They laugh about it today, and that lesson always stuck with him.  Despite his tough demeanor, at the end of the day, that high school coach cared for his players, and he paid attention to all of them... even the ones who never played.  In fact my son spent 45 minutes on the phone with him the other day getting advice on his current situation.  He was there for him.  In contrast, my son’s college coach isn’t like that... he’s demeaning and belittling and acts like you aren’t worth his time.  He has a few select players that get all his attention, but the rest are pretty much ignored.  After my son’s injury, I think this guy looked at him as damaged goods.  He wasn’t worth his time anymore.  So imo, tough coaches are good.... mean coaches are not.  Ok, back to what happened today... my son met with his HC and told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there.  The coach said, “this may not be the right fit for you, you’d probably be better off somewhere else.”  My son put his uniform on the desk and walked out.  There were no words of encouragement, nothing.  About an hour later, my son received a text from him.  I’ll let you read what it said in my son’s own words:

“After an hour went by he sent me a text saying how a lot of people feel the same way I do but they aren’t as mature as me and aren’t strong and brave enough to confront him about it. He said he respected that. He also said that there’s a lot of people on the team right now that he believes should do what I did but are afraid of doing it. After I went in there and after he texted me, it felt as if a 100lb backpack was just taken off my shoulders and I can finally breathe.  I’m sorry if this makes you guys upset, but in the end I feel a lot better than I have in awhile.  It took me until all this came up to realize that I haven’t been happy.  I’ve finally got some closure about this and it feels great. I’m gonna miss it but that’s why i’m going into this field, so I can stay around it. I love you and I’m sorry if you’re upset, but this is something I had to do, especially after hearing what he had to say.”

The tears are flowing down my cheeks re-reading his text.  He didn’t make the decision I wanted him to make, but he did what he felt was best.  And I’m proud of him for that. I don’t know what to think of a coach who has kids on his team that he doesn’t want.  Why recruit them if you don’t want them?  And why belittle them instead of just being honest and cutting them?  

This forum is wonderful.  Thank you everyone for your advice. I sure am going to miss watching my son play.  But I know he will be fine. 

I am so sorry that your son had to lose his love for the game because of one guy. That coach should know the effect he has had.  What you mentioned is key.  I remember a tough season with a horrible coach and one of the boys on my son’s team referenced the coach from the year before...also tough.  He said, it was ok when Coach XYZ  screamed at us, because we knew he loved us.  That is the key. If you can’t balance your toughness with making sure the kids know you care, you need to change your approach, or quit coaching.

RJM posted:

If he led with .... told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there ... I wouldn’t expect any coach to respond any differently than the coach did. He also shouldn’t have brought other players into the conversation. 

This sounds like a coach who has quit learning and being introspective IMO.  It’s arrogance, which 9 times out of 10 isn’t good for anyone.  The coach needs to look at himself and realize that maybe the way he is approaching things isn’t having the effect he intends. Everyone can still learn.

Sorry to hear the journey has taken a new path.  I would not defend a coach like that but I must appreciate the follow up.  He could have left your son hanging but had enough courtesy or respect for your son to send him the text.  I can promise you this, the text will stand out in your son's mind as a life lesson longer than the belittling events.   He will use that some day in dealing with someone else.  Closure is a good thing.

On the question, why would he recruit someone he did not want.  The recruiting process is a two-way street.  Having a son who is a college recruiter for softball, I hear his side of it.  he gets a glimpse into a kid's life but can't always tell the work ethic or attitude or how parents deal with life situations ....etc.  he only sees them sometimes on the field and some HS or travel coaches will not tell the truth about a player or their parents.  He has had to encourage some to move on after a year because once they were there they just did not fit for various reasons.  Some have left because they felt they did not fit.  He has always tried to help them find where they fit even if it is a competitor.  Again, I will say recruiting is dating and some times the dating process is long and sometimes it is not long enough to really find out what you have.  Sometimes, it is just not a good fit.

Again, glad your son sees the big picture and made the right choice on schools for his long-term goals.  And thanks for sharing your hurt.  I promise that will help some other parent along the journey and isn't that why we are here.  To help someone along this journey of baseball.

It was a mature decision. I've seen guys keep playing well after it stopped being fun for them simply because they just felt playing ball was wht they wer supposed to do.

SUMOM3 posted:

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies, and thank you Qhead for the great quote... I needed that laugh.  It’s been a tough day, I heard from my son a few hours ago.  He met with his coach and decided to walk away.  He’s done with baseball.  I’m really sad, but also proud of him.  Transferring isn’t an option for him because he is in a great school for his major.  I’ll explain what happened in a second, but wanted to say one thing first... there’s been a lot of talk here about the pros and cons of tough coaches... so I do want to be clear that my son has had tough coaches... the kind who scream and yell and somehow in their madness are making you a better, stronger player.  I’m ok with that... I actually like that tough love approach.  I remember one game in HS - my son was throwing a no hitter shut out, but had a few bad moments in the 6th inning and walked the 7th and 8th batters.  It didn’t matter how well he was pitching or that we were up by a lot... his high school coach started screaming, threw his clipboard and shattered it because “you never walk the bottom of the lineup!!!”  They laugh about it today, and that lesson always stuck with him.  Despite his tough demeanor, at the end of the day, that high school coach cared for his players, and he paid attention to all of them... even the ones who never played.  In fact my son spent 45 minutes on the phone with him the other day getting advice on his current situation.  He was there for him.  In contrast, my son’s college coach isn’t like that... he’s demeaning and belittling and acts like you aren’t worth his time.  He has a few select players that get all his attention, but the rest are pretty much ignored.  After my son’s injury, I think this guy looked at him as damaged goods.  He wasn’t worth his time anymore.  So imo, tough coaches are good.... mean coaches are not.  Ok, back to what happened today... my son met with his HC and told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there.  The coach said, “this may not be the right fit for you, you’d probably be better off somewhere else.”  My son put his uniform on the desk and walked out.  There were no words of encouragement, nothing.  About an hour later, my son received a text from him.  I’ll let you read what it said in my son’s own words:

“After an hour went by he sent me a text saying how a lot of people feel the same way I do but they aren’t as mature as me and aren’t strong and brave enough to confront him about it. He said he respected that. He also said that there’s a lot of people on the team right now that he believes should do what I did but are afraid of doing it. After I went in there and after he texted me, it felt as if a 100lb backpack was just taken off my shoulders and I can finally breathe.  I’m sorry if this makes you guys upset, but in the end I feel a lot better than I have in awhile.  It took me until all this came up to realize that I haven’t been happy.  I’ve finally got some closure about this and it feels great. I’m gonna miss it but that’s why i’m going into this field, so I can stay around it. I love you and I’m sorry if you’re upset, but this is something I had to do, especially after hearing what he had to say.”

The tears are flowing down my cheeks re-reading his text.  He didn’t make the decision I wanted him to make, but he did what he felt was best.  And I’m proud of him for that. I don’t know what to think of a coach who has kids on his team that he doesn’t want.  Why recruit them if you don’t want them?  And why belittle them instead of just being honest and cutting them?  

This forum is wonderful.  Thank you everyone for your advice. I sure am going to miss watching my son play.  But I know he will be fine. 

ok now I'm getting teary eyed.  Hate to see a young person so upset and miserable!  I am glad he made the decision that was right for him.  I'd bet that within a week (heck 2 days) he'll be saying - what baseball team?  

Sumom3, I'm sorry your son went through this, but it sounds as if he handled it well and will end up stronger for it.  It's a shame, though, that the coach couldn't have had an actual conversation with him earlier that might have cleared the air for both.

A couple of months back I got raked over the coals in another thread on this sitefor suggesting that a college coach who had more players than he wanted on his roster could decide to make things unpleasant for players he wanted to leave.  I essentially was told that it was outrageous to even suggest a coach might do that.  Just sayin'...

If nothing else, this thread has made me appreciate my son's coaching staff. They have had fantastic results, yet don't have to resort to belittling players, and have players that are happy campers, for the most part. 

I have no problem with coaches that are demanding, or that hand out discipline when warranted. I just don't get creating a negative atmosphere. Sucks the spirit out of a team.

Lots of great comments in this thread. 

With two boys playing college ball, we've sadly seen it all from coaches.  IMHO, screaming is just screaming, it's not coaching.  All the other boorish behavior including running kids off programs really bothers me.

Coaches have a tremendous opportunity to be a life changer and a mentor at this stage.  My oldest's coach understood that and did an awesome job helping kids stay on track towards graduation, plan semester course schedules, work with them on career planning, etc.  And he is an excellent baseball coach.  My youngest's coach is a screamer, bat thrower, trash can kicker, etc.  And he remains sub .500 for his career...maybe that catches up to him.  But for now, it makes the baseball miserable for most of the players and the turnover continues to be way too high.

Glad the OP's son seems to have found the best resolution for him.  In an effort to add perspective for those who may find this thread as guidance in similar situations, i will add...

Right or wrong, this type of coaching "style" is not uncommon in college baseball.  I think it is sometimes somewhat by design and sometimes not.  But the fact is, a player should be ready to deal with it and still find satisfaction in his college baseball career.  I think, quite often, players who are capable but not top recruits (the majority) don't have the luxury of hand picking a school that has the best of everything, including a coach personality that they will mesh well with.  Also, coaches will, of course, put on their best positive faces for the recruiting courtship and then get down to business in their own fashion once the player arrives.  Often, this is not the same personality.  So many players find themselves in a similar circumstance, perhaps not to the extreme.  

The good news is that when this happens, the players (and often assistant coach(s) ) rally around each other and become the bond.  This is where a player can turn for positive support.  Then, it's just a matter of figuring out how to navigate the coach's personality and win playing time.  Don't take it personal.  Deal with it as the next (often constant) hurdle.  I'm not saying sticking with it is always the right choice.  Sounds like the OP's son made the right choice for him by letting go.  But for many, this is just another hurdle to be overcome, like so many they have jumped before and so many yet to come.  

SUMOM3:  I almost teared up reading your son's text. I'm so happy that he did what was best for him, and he is very lucky to have great parents to support him. 

I'm going to add a new perspective to the broader conversation about tough coaches. Education and overall mental health/happiness should be the priority for most college players. The reality is that the vast majority of college players will never play after college, so their focus in college should be education. When a player is suffering at the hands of a mean coach, he has to decide whether he should stick it out, quit, or transfer to a new team. If he's at a top program and is on course to go pro, then sticking it out might be worth it. If it's pretty clear his future career is not in baseball, then the misery may not be worth it. OP's son clearly felt the misery was not worth it and it sounds like that was the best decision for him. 

As someone else said, there is a difference between tough and mean. Sounds like this coach was intentionally mean to OP's son and other players for whatever reason (perhaps to force them out, but the reason is irrelevant). I personally think mean is stupid; you can build character and teach without being mean. That being said, the reality is there are mean coaches out there and each player has to decide whether he wants to deal with it.    

Some of the advice that has been given here equates to "players should always tough it out because it builds character" and "kids should never quit." I strongly disagree with that philosophy if a kid is dealing with a mean coach who is causing the kid to be literally miserable. That's where the mental health priority comes into play. There are times when it is truly not healthy for a person to stay in a stressful situation. College should be a fun experience that prepares the student for the rest of their life. In an ideal situation, baseball (and the coaches) help do both. When it doesn't, and baseball makes the kid miserable, a parent should never encourage them to "just stick it out because it builds character." That attitude does not work for everyone and can lead to serious mental health issues if it gets to an extreme. College athletes have to be tough to even get that far, and it's not a sign of weakness if a kid quits for a good reason. Sometimes quitting is an informed decision to remove unhealthy (and unnecessary) stress from your life. Doing that allows you to put your energy into succeding in other areas of your life, like education.  

Some thoughts.  First, let your son know that regardless of what he decides, you are behind him.  Secondly, it is time for your son to decide how much of this is the coach and how much of this is him.  I know that this sounds harsh but the truth often is that when a student is in a tough part of their progress toward a degree, they start to get tired.  When they get tired, they sometimes don't do well with comments or actions of others who they want support from.  For example a coach.  

My daughter wanted to come home after one semester of college.  She loved the game but college was a lot different.  She loved her coach but was the target of some on the team since she was a freshman and during fall ball, starting.  If you have ever heard the song, "Dream Big," it is a powerful song.  The song is by Ryan Shupe and the Rubber Band.  Have your son find the lyrics and listen to the song.  

Zia2021 posted:

... I personally think mean is stupid; you can build character and teach without being mean. That being said, the reality is there are mean coaches out there and each player has to decide whether he wants to deal with it.    

Some of the advice that has been given here equates to "players should always tough it out because it builds character" and "kids should never quit." I strongly disagree with that philosophy if a kid is dealing with a mean coach who is causing the kid to be literally miserable. That's where the mental health priority comes into play. There are times when it is truly not healthy for a person to stay in a stressful situation. College should be a fun experience that prepares the student for the rest of their life. In an ideal situation, baseball (and the coaches) help do both. When it doesn't, and baseball makes the kid miserable, a parent should never encourage them to "just stick it out because it builds character." That attitude does not work for everyone and can lead to serious mental health issues if it gets to an extreme. College athletes have to be tough to even get that far, and it's not a sign of weakness if a kid quits for a good reason. Sometimes quitting is an informed decision to remove unhealthy (and unnecessary) stress from your life. Doing that allows you to put your energy into succeding in other areas of your life, like education.  

Zia, a few things...

First, I agree with most of what you said.

Second, I think your statement is stretching the message a bit from many of us... none of us are saying a kid should always tough it out and should never quit.  For example, I specifically said I think in the case of the OP, it sounds like the player made the right choice for him.  I think everyone agrees if the case is extreme and/or the player is actually miserable on a regular basis, it's not worth it.  

HOWEVER...

From what I recall, your son has tools and is getting early attention.  You have become pretty well connected with what's going on with the current recruiting scene and you are an intelligent person.  You have found this site to be the great asset that it is.  My suggestion is that you put a good bit of focus in the coming months on researching realistic expectations when it comes to what the stress level of a typical college baseball player is (balancing school and baseball and sometimes work, constantly competing and fighting for his playing time/position while trying to find adequate study time to succeed in the academic aspect, trying to find sufficient social time and being willing to sacrifice at least a significant portion of that aspect, adhering to the HC directive of going to play a heavy summer college schedule after having been consumed with practices, workouts , games, studies, cafeteria food, no down time, no family time for the previous nine months, etc. all the while, trying to learn how to live on his own for the first time).  Even if he has a great coach that uses all the "right" techniques and displays genuine concern for his players, there is still often conflict between the coach's priorities (have his players best prepared to win games) and the student athlete's objectives (to also be successful in the classroom).  The college experience for the baseball player is not going to be the "fun experience" in the same sense that the typical student has.  If a student athlete, particularly a baseball player, expects the college experience to be this big bundle of "fun and stress free" living, he has very unrealistic expectations and will be set up for failure.  Stress will be there on a fairly regular basis, regardless of the coach.  Fun usually comes in the form of comradery with the group of other players struggling with the same stresses and challenges and that fun becomes heightened when they are actually able to do so while performing well and winning among all the chaos.  Even in that comradery, there is the juxtaposition of the serious competitive battle among each other for precious starting/playing time while at the same time, pulling for each other as teammates.  On top of all this, I would take a wild guess that your son's major is not likely to be a particularly easy one.  Yes, the baseball part is still a game but at this point, has taken a giant step toward being a full time job and is also far more competitive and time consuming than what the HS player is used to and expects.  Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

cabbagedad posted:

 

 Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

This the kind of comment I really don't understand. Why should he subject himself to that? He wouldn't have to in the corporate world, at least not outwardly and certainly not in light he has described things. Plus the coach doesn't want him, he made that clear by his actions and then again by his conversation and follow up.

I have suggestion for the coach, man up, call the boy (remember he is 19 and the coach in theory is a grown mature adult) into your office, tell him the problem, what is not acceptable and what needs to happen moving forward...or cut him loose.

Don't be 30 or 40 50 year old hiding behind your job title, man the hell up and deal with an uncomfortable situation like an adult. This not to much to ask for and the fact that any coach doesn't do that is a poor reflection on the coach as person and school as an entity.

This is basic common sense and communication 101. He doesn't have to be nice he only has to be professional.

old_school posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

 Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

This the kind of comment I really don't understand. Why should he subject himself to that? He wouldn't have to in the corporate world, at least not outwardly and certainly not in light he has described things. Plus the coach doesn't want him, he made that clear by his actions and then again by his conversation and follow up.

I have suggestion for the coach, man up, call the boy (remember he is 19 and the coach in theory is a grown mature adult) into your office, tell him the problem, what is not acceptable and what needs to happen moving forward...or cut him loose.

Don't be 30 or 40 50 year old hiding behind your job title, man the hell up and deal with an uncomfortable situation like an adult. This not to much to ask for and the fact that any coach doesn't do that is a poor reflection on the coach as person and school as an entity.

This is basic common sense and communication 101. He doesn't have to be nice he only has to be professional.

I think you need to change your screen name. 

Just having fun, not trying to pick a fight

old_school posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

 Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

This the kind of comment I really don't understand. Why should he subject himself to that? He wouldn't have to in the corporate world, at least not outwardly and certainly not in light he has described things. Plus the coach doesn't want him, he made that clear by his actions and then again by his conversation and follow up.

I have suggestion for the coach, man up, call the boy (remember he is 19 and the coach in theory is a grown mature adult) into your office, tell him the problem, what is not acceptable and what needs to happen moving forward...or cut him loose.

Don't be 30 or 40 50 year old hiding behind your job title, man the hell up and deal with an uncomfortable situation like an adult. This not to much to ask for and the fact that any coach doesn't do that is a poor reflection on the coach as person and school as an entity.

This is basic common sense and communication 101. He doesn't have to be nice he only has to be professional.

Again, I am not referring to the coach or player in the OP.  I have said several times now that I think he made the right decision for himself in that scenario.  If you look at the full context of my post, I was trying to help Zia (who is not the OP) with realistic expectations in regards to the type and degree of "fun" and level of stress a college baseball player typically has.

College coaches yell.  Watch any football or basketball sidelines.  Sure it's much worse during a practice session, don't see why baseball would be any different

The OP son had an issue with it.  Probably a combination of sensitivity on the side of the player and boorish behavior by the coach.

The coach's text response makes it appear that he's not an ignorant prick, so take it for what it is.  Maybe a certain link in the chain was removed, which was the coach's objective.

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

PABaseball posted:

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

IMO, conduct that would get a manager fired (or put on probation) at most companies = abusive.  I don't think any of the business school research finds that screaming, throwing things, etc. is an effective way to motivate people or build cohesive teams. 

Maybe sports teams ought to be governed like military units?  I'm willing to listen to that argument (seriously), but it doesn't seem self-evident to me.

PABaseball posted:

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

1/2 the players and parents on my son's HS team strongly dislike the coach, he does this, doesn't do that, so on.  Those are the kids who don't get a lot of PT.

The other 1/2, who play, speak highly of him. 

I can say he reached out to my son many times this summer, asking how recruiting was going and what he could do to help.  I'm sure the coaches who came to watch our HS games were also there because of him.  One offer my son received was a direct result of his feedback.  

People are going to play the victim card when they don't get what they want.  Unfortunately, this is the direction our culture has been moving towards for several years.

CTbballDad posted:

PABaseball posted:

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

1/2 the players and parents on my son's HS team strongly dislike the coach, he does this, doesn't do that, so on.  Those are the kids who don't get a lot of PT.

The other 1/2, who play, speak highly of him. 

I can say he reached out to my son many times this summer, asking how recruiting was going and what he could do to help.  I'm sure the coaches who came to watch our HS games were also there because of him.  One offer my son received was a direct result of his feedback.  

People are going to play the victim card when they don't get what they want.  Unfortunately, this is the direction our culture has been moving towards for several years.

Your son's HS coach may be great and criticisms of him may be sour grapes--I have no idea.  But plenty of bad managers play favorites--the fact a manager treats some employees well doesn't prove that he isn't abusive to others.  (Again, I know nothing at all about the particular coach you're referring to.)  And if a coach is abusive but also supportive in other respects, that doesn't make the abuse ok.

I'm serious:  Does anyone know of any research that indicates screaming, etc. is effective as a management strategy?  Do you work at a company that would tolerate a manager who routinely yelled or threw things?  

Maybe sports is different.  But if so, why?  I don't expect to be treated at my job the way some routinely expect coaches to treat athletes.  But my job pays me to be there--if anything, don't they have a greater right to expect me to tolerate whatever they throw at me?  Or is the difference that I am an adult and can easily choose to work elsewhere?  

I don't know what business school research has to do with college baseball coaches. And comparing the workforce to college coaches is apples to oranges. Two completely different worlds. Even if one were to make the argument, the language and attitude on Wall street and in big banking, which is the arguably the highest level of the business industry, would beg to differ. 

Either way, the original post had nothing to do with screaming or throwing things. The original post referenced not watching bullpens, and speaking to the player in an unpleasant tone. Does it suck? Sure and many would agree the player made the right decision. But is it abuse? Not even close. And to her credit, the OP did not mention abuse once, just an unhappy son.

OK - here you go.  Augie Garrido was a great coach and teacher who would rip his teams when necessary (check YouTube).  His players loved him.  He cared about them, and made that clear.

Bobby Knight, though he won a lot of basketball games, is not like Augie Garrido.  A nasty, needlessly cruel person.  

I'd draw the line somewhere between those two.  

PABaseball posted:

I don't know what business school research has to do with college baseball coaches. And comparing the workforce to college coaches is apples to oranges. Two completely different worlds. Even if one were to make the argument, the language and attitude on Wall street and in big banking, which is the arguably the highest level of the business industry, would beg to differ. 

Either way, the original post had nothing to do with screaming or throwing things. The original post referenced not watching bullpens, and speaking to the player in an unpleasant tone. Does it suck? Sure and many would agree the player made the right decision. But is it abuse? Not even close. And to her credit, the OP did not mention abuse once, just an unhappy son

 

 

 

No disrespect intended, but you say sports are different--and that makes behavior ok that isn't tolerated in the workplace.  Why?  What about college sports makes it ok for coaches to act in ways businesses won't allow from managers?  

Wall Street , large law firms and a few other employers do tend to tolerate conduct others wouldn't (I mentioned this also in a post above).  I don't know many folks who would defend these as good models for the workplace, but they do exist.  They also rely heavily on burning out lower level employees in a few years and replacing them.  Granted, college sports teams can use the same model.  Does that make it a good way to operate?

I agree this has wandered off topic from the OP.  Still an interesting discussion and worth having, IMO.  If you don't agree, that's all right, too.  I've never known threads on this forum to limit themselves to single issues.

Not trying to provoke you at all.  Willing to have an online discussion if you want.  But can we agree that saying "people today complain too much" or "coaches have done it this way forever" doesn't justify the behaviors?  And so I ask again, why do we tolerate conduct from coaches that companies would not tolerate from managers?  Do we think the coaches are able to be more effective this way?  Do we think 15-22 year old males are too hard-headed to respond to other methods?  If you think it's ok for coaches to scream, belittle players in front of their peers, etc., then why?

OskiSD posted:

OK - here you go.  Augie Garrido was a great coach and teacher who would rip his teams when necessary (check YouTube).  His players loved him.  He cared about them, and made that clear.

Bobby Knight, though he won a lot of basketball games, is not like Augie Garrido.  A nasty, needlessly cruel person.  

I'd draw the line somewhere between those two.  

Good post.  I think "there is a difference... and I know it when I see it" is a fair response.  It's not going to be possible to draw up strict rules. 

Still interested (though others may not be) in why most of us would tolerate conduct by Garrido that we wouldn't tolerate from our bosses.  

Chico Escuela posted:

PABaseball posted:

I don't know what business school research has to do with college baseball coaches. And comparing the workforce to college coaches is apples to oranges. Two completely different worlds. Even if one were to make the argument, the language and attitude on Wall street and in big banking, which is the arguably the highest level of the business industry, would beg to differ. 

Either way, the original post had nothing to do with screaming or throwing things. The original post referenced not watching bullpens, and speaking to the player in an unpleasant tone. Does it suck? Sure and many would agree the player made the right decision. But is it abuse? Not even close. And to her credit, the OP did not mention abuse once, just an unhappy son

 

 

 

No disrespect intended, but you say sports are different--and that makes behavior ok that isn't tolerated in the workplace.  Why?  What about college sports makes it ok for coaches to act in ways businesses won't allow from managers?  

Wall Street , large law firms and a few other employers do tend to tolerate conduct others wouldn't (I mentioned this also in a post above).  I don't know many folks who would defend these as good models for the workplace, but they do exist.  They also rely heavily on burning out lower level employees in a few years and replacing them.  Granted, college sports teams can use the same model.  Does that make it a good way to operate?

I agree this has wandered off topic from the OP.  Still an interesting discussion and worth having, IMO.  If you don't agree, that's all right, too.  I've never known threads on this forum to limit themselves to single issues.

Not trying to provoke you at all.  Willing to have an online discussion if you want.  But can we agree that saying "people today complain too much" or "coaches have done it this way forever" doesn't justify the behaviors?  And so I ask again, why do we tolerate conduct from coaches that companies would not tolerate from managers?  Do we think the coaches are able to be more effective this way?  Do we think 15-22 year old males are too hard-headed to respond to other methods?  If you think it's ok for coaches to scream, belittle players in front of their peers, etc., then why?

Interesting questions, but I do believe it's probably apples and oranges.  Certainly not my level of expertise, but I'm sure there are employment laws that prevent the type of behavior you see in sports.  A college athlete is not an employee.

Perhaps there are some old cultural norms that allow the behavior you're questioning, but that's too deep for my simple mind.

CTbballDad posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

PABaseball posted:

 

 

 

Perhaps there are some old cultural norms that allow the behavior you're questioning, but that's too deep for my simple mind.

Dang!  I was hoping you could explain it to me!!  I think we do have different norms for coaches (I do, too).  But if I ask myself "do those behaviors motivate people better or help teams work better?," I think I have to say "no" based on my experience.  Which is kind of a paradox...    

OskiSD posted:

OK - here you go.  Augie Garrido was a great coach and teacher who would rip his teams when necessary (check YouTube).  His players loved him.  He cared about them, and made that clear.

Bobby Knight, though he won a lot of basketball games, is not like Augie Garrido.  A nasty, needlessly cruel person.  

I'd draw the line somewhere between those two.  

A lot of former Indiana players worship Bobby Knight. They say he taught them discipline, self management skills and to grow up. Plus, his players graduated. 

I don't think many of the "old school" tactics have a place and I would say just because some like a coach does not make it right.  I know women who say they love their husbands who beat them every night and live in that environment.  Success does not make a coach good so the examples that have been presented are still wrong.  Treat people right.

I really don't see how high school coaches get away with this stuff.  I have often wondered what would happen to a high school english teacher who broke into a tirade because kids made bad grades and dropped the f bomb and sh-- words while spitting chewing tobacco at their students feet.  Why do we accept it in the sports world?  I told a principal one time where I coached that if the football coach was still there when my son got there he could go ahead and expect a call to DCS or the Superintendant.  I won't take anything from a coach on the field toward my son in high school that I would take from a teacher.  And I know my wife would not because she is a DCS worker.  I have seen her confront parents in a parking lot so I know she would have no problem confronting a coach on a field whether it was toward our son or someone else.

College is another issue because that is his call not mine.  I believe he is my responsibility until he graduates from high school and then he has to make the big boy decisions on most things except the things I am paying for. 

In almost every college baseball environment half the players will fail and transfer or quit freshman or soph year. Many have never failed before. It can’t possible be they weren’t up to the task. It must be the coach’s fault. Failing as a freshman or soph as an athlete doesn’t necessarily mean the kid can’t play. If you think the competition to get recruited is stiff wait until it’s about getting on the field at college. 

To think this doesn't happen in the business world is a bit naive.  Especially what was described by the OP.  

If a coach takes any pride in a kid losing his love of baseball because of his coaching, he is a crappy coach. I agree with the person who said the coach should man up. If a kid isn’t making the cut, tell him why. Don’t hide behind poor treatment hoping they quit.  Be the kind of man you are expecting 18-22 year olds to be.

RJM posted:

In almost every college baseball environment half the players will fail and transfer or quit freshman or soph year. Many have never failed before. It can’t possible be they weren’t up to the task. It must be the coach’s fault. Failing as a freshman or soph as an athlete doesn’t necessarily mean the kid can’t play. If you think the competition to get recruited is stiff wait until it’s about getting on the field at college. 

Respectfully, I'd say you're changing the subject.  Do kids today need to be better at handling failure?  A lot of people think so.  No one in the thread has said we should blame coaches if our kids can't cut it, or if that coaches shouldn't hold players to high standards and let them know if they fail to meet them.

But why do we accept behavior from coaches that we would not from accept from business managers, teachers (as PitchingFan noted), or just about anyone else outside a military or correctional context?  Is it more effective?  Does it make a team cohere better?  

real green posted:

To think this doesn't happen in the business world is a bit naive.  Especially what was described by the OP.  

It happens, but no company would condone it.  No management training would suggest that it is effective or appropriate.  No business school would suggest managers act this way.  Why do we expect it from coaches? 

Yelling at employees isn't illegal (unless motivated by unlawful discrimination or it amounts to an actionable threat of physical harm).  Companies could decide to manage their workers the way Bobby Knight coached his basketball players.  A lot of employees would quit--maybe you'd need to pay extra to keep people on.  But if it's such a great way to motivate people and get them to work as a team, shouldn't some company in the Fortune 500 be rolling out this program to increase their productivity?  Not one of them is even considering it.