RR,
I agree with much of what you say regarding pitchers. The pitchers I mentioned had a lot more than just 90+ fastballs to get drafted, obviously.
If you subscribe to BA, it is very interesting to read the scouting reports on all of the top prospects in each organization. Gives one a good perspective of how and why these guys are top prospects, drafted high out of HS and college.
From what I have learned in the past year watching D1 baseball, there are many, many players who can pitch very well and throw hard. That is why they are there. But only a few will get drafted in rounds that will make them top prospects in the organization.
I am still wondering with so much talent to choose from what other indicator does the scout use, stats? Which one?
Seems as this is yet another of the many velocity vs lack of velocity threads.
People tend to bring up the 90+ mph failures if they’re on the side of the soft tossers. Well… Of course there are a lot of 90+ failures… That’s because the vast majority of those drafted throw in that range. If every pitcher who throws in the 90s made it to the big leagues they would have to expand the leagues to hundreds of teams.
One should look at the entire group rather than those who might have failed. How many mid 80s rookie pitchers do we see in any given year in the Major Leagues? They’re all rookies before they’re vets. Perhaps some might think there should be more low to mid 80 types in the league. Truth is all else being equal in pitching… faster is better!
There are very few hitters who will honestly say they would rather hit against a straight 95 mph fastball rather than a straight 85 mph fastball. I know which one they would pick with the big game on the line.
Wouldn’t everyone agree that all low to mid 80s pitchers are not exactly the same?
So why then do we lump all the 90+ guys in one group?
Some are much better than others.
Once again it appears that some think scouts “only” consider velocity and those who have that 90+ velocity can’t pitch.
Scouts do get interested when they see 90+
They get more interested if the pitcher has good mechanics and arm action
They get more interested if the pitcher has size and projection
They get more interested if the pitcher shows athletic ability
They get more interested when they see mid 90+
They get more interested if that pitch has life and movement
They get more interested if that pitch sinks
They get more interested if there is command of that pitch
They get more interested if the pitcher has a good breaking ball
They get more interested when they see high velocity breaking balls
They get more interested if the pitcher has command of the breaking ball
They get more interested if the pitch has a good changeup
They get more interested if the pitcher shows a good splitty, cutter, etc
They get more interested if the pitcher shows deception
They get more interested if the pitcher shows pitchabilty
They get more interested if the pitcher shows poise
They get more interested if the pitcher is very competitive
They get more interested if the pitcher has great makeup.
I could keep going
When they see much or all of the above, the stats are almost always real good, good enough anyway.
90+ by itself might cause enough interest to draft and follow. 90+ alone won’t gain anyone a big pay day!
The only stats that truly count are the ones the scout thinks the pitcher could compile in the Major Leagues some day. Yes, they are wrong sometimes, but there are only so many openings in the Major Leagues. It’s amazing how often they are right!
Velocity is not the only thing, but those that wish to ignore its importance stand to be forever disappointed. There are a large number of pitchers in the Major Leagues who just wouldn’t have got there or stayed there without 90+ velocity.
Young, and not so perfectly conditioned, Bobby Jenks White Sox World Series closer had some rough stops in the minor leagues. The main thing that got him to the World Series was the 100 mph fastball.
I kind of think Roger Clemens might be the best pitcher who ever lived. The same Clemens minus 10-15 mph on all his pitches and we wouldn’t even know his name.
Is it possible to ever have one of these discussions without bringing up Maddux or other finesse types. Maddux was a small high school pitcher who was low to mid 90s in high school. If he threw low 80s in high school we probably wouldn’t know his name today.
Stats – Important provided there is interest in the pitchers ability
No interest in pitchers ability – Stats don’t mean a whole lot.
In other words the odds are extremely stacked against the low 80s pitcher even with world beater stats. Once in a great while these types do get a shot (not much money) and they make it to the top. However, these types sure can win a lot of college games along the way.
My suggestion – If you can’t beat the system – Do everything possible to join it!
People tend to bring up the 90+ mph failures if they’re on the side of the soft tossers. Well… Of course there are a lot of 90+ failures… That’s because the vast majority of those drafted throw in that range. If every pitcher who throws in the 90s made it to the big leagues they would have to expand the leagues to hundreds of teams.
One should look at the entire group rather than those who might have failed. How many mid 80s rookie pitchers do we see in any given year in the Major Leagues? They’re all rookies before they’re vets. Perhaps some might think there should be more low to mid 80 types in the league. Truth is all else being equal in pitching… faster is better!
There are very few hitters who will honestly say they would rather hit against a straight 95 mph fastball rather than a straight 85 mph fastball. I know which one they would pick with the big game on the line.
Wouldn’t everyone agree that all low to mid 80s pitchers are not exactly the same?
So why then do we lump all the 90+ guys in one group?
Some are much better than others.
Once again it appears that some think scouts “only” consider velocity and those who have that 90+ velocity can’t pitch.
Scouts do get interested when they see 90+
They get more interested if the pitcher has good mechanics and arm action
They get more interested if the pitcher has size and projection
They get more interested if the pitcher shows athletic ability
They get more interested when they see mid 90+
They get more interested if that pitch has life and movement
They get more interested if that pitch sinks
They get more interested if there is command of that pitch
They get more interested if the pitcher has a good breaking ball
They get more interested when they see high velocity breaking balls
They get more interested if the pitcher has command of the breaking ball
They get more interested if the pitch has a good changeup
They get more interested if the pitcher shows a good splitty, cutter, etc
They get more interested if the pitcher shows deception
They get more interested if the pitcher shows pitchabilty
They get more interested if the pitcher shows poise
They get more interested if the pitcher is very competitive
They get more interested if the pitcher has great makeup.
I could keep going
When they see much or all of the above, the stats are almost always real good, good enough anyway.
90+ by itself might cause enough interest to draft and follow. 90+ alone won’t gain anyone a big pay day!
The only stats that truly count are the ones the scout thinks the pitcher could compile in the Major Leagues some day. Yes, they are wrong sometimes, but there are only so many openings in the Major Leagues. It’s amazing how often they are right!
Velocity is not the only thing, but those that wish to ignore its importance stand to be forever disappointed. There are a large number of pitchers in the Major Leagues who just wouldn’t have got there or stayed there without 90+ velocity.
Young, and not so perfectly conditioned, Bobby Jenks White Sox World Series closer had some rough stops in the minor leagues. The main thing that got him to the World Series was the 100 mph fastball.
I kind of think Roger Clemens might be the best pitcher who ever lived. The same Clemens minus 10-15 mph on all his pitches and we wouldn’t even know his name.
Is it possible to ever have one of these discussions without bringing up Maddux or other finesse types. Maddux was a small high school pitcher who was low to mid 90s in high school. If he threw low 80s in high school we probably wouldn’t know his name today.
Stats – Important provided there is interest in the pitchers ability
No interest in pitchers ability – Stats don’t mean a whole lot.
In other words the odds are extremely stacked against the low 80s pitcher even with world beater stats. Once in a great while these types do get a shot (not much money) and they make it to the top. However, these types sure can win a lot of college games along the way.
My suggestion – If you can’t beat the system – Do everything possible to join it!
When a scout goes to a ballpark to evaluate a pitcher, there are a number of items that are observed and graded. Velocity is only part of the evaluation; There are many pitchers in high school and college that can touch 90+ mph on the radar gun but are not really considered professional prospects. Listed below is a list of pitching criterion used by most Major League clubs
Fast Ball: We start with this because it is the most obvious. Scouts want to see a pitcher'' average velocity - what your fastball pitches at on a consistent basis throughout a game. (some scouts call it "the cruising speed") Your top velocity is also noted and may be used, depending on your age and mechanics, to project a better fastball grade in the future. Along with radar gun readings, a scout must look at how the baseball moves, sinks, cuts, etc. in order to complete the fastball grade. If you throw 90 - 91 mph, but it is straight as an arrow and gets hit frequently, your fastball may be given a below average grade despite it's velocity.
The following fastball velocities are Major League Baseball pitcher ratings
Very Above Average 94+ mph
Above Average 92 - 93 mph
Average 89 - 91 mph
Below Average 87 - 88 mph
Very Below Average 85 - 86 mph
(Left-handed pitchers are graded on the same scale, but fastball velocities are usually given less weight if their breaking balls and change-ups are effective.)
Arm Action: Scouts will note at what arm angle you throw from. Moving from highest release point to the lowest, the arm angles are: over-hand, high 3-quarter, 3-quarter, low 3-quarter, or sidearm. Next, scouts will determine how much tension, or effort, is in the arm action. A max-effort pitcher is tough on his arm and risks injury, as opposed to someone who is smooth and effortless. Pure arm speed is also noted, which usually translates to tighter rotation and better velocity with pitches. A pitcher's arm action will also determine what type f break a curve or slider will have (down break, sweeping, sharp, loose, hanging, etc).
Delivery: Are pitching mechanics clean and smooth, or is there work to be done with the mechanics? There are a wide variety of mechanical flaws that may prohibit a pitcher from being efficient and consistent. Scouts need to note both the good and the bad, or what needs improvement.
Breaking Pitches: This includes curves, sliders and screwballs. A major league pitcher needs at least two quality pitches to keep hitters off-balance. Scouts need to grade the effectiveness of the breaking balls on a Major League scale. Good breaking balls have velocity, they break late (close to home plate), have a tight rotation (tougher to read the spin), and hitters struggle to make solid contact with them.
Other Pitches: This includes the split-finger, change-up, knuckle balls, etc. Again velocity, rotation, sharpness, and how hitters react to them will help determine their grade.
Aggressiveness: Does the pitcher go after hitters with his fastball? Does he challenge hitters with his best stuff? Does he work quickly on the mound between pitches? Does he intimidate hitters with his body language and attitude?
Baseball Instincts: Does he have a feel for pitching (knowing when to use his fastball or when to go off-speed); Is there field awareness for where base runners are and where the play needs to be made; does he back-up bases and cover first base when necessary; and does he support his teammates after an error is made?
Control: Can the pitcher pitch, or does he just throw in the direction of the plate? Can he locate his fastball for a strike when behind in the count? Does he pitch ahead-in-the-count, or behind? On average, a good inning for a pitcher would be 15 pitches or less. Greg Maddux of the Braves once threw a complete, nine inning game on 78 pitches, which is fewer than 9 pitches an inning ... on average.
Physical Maturity: Scouts will evaluate a pitcher's body to determine if he "feels" the pitcher can improve his velocity in the future with added strength and natural, physical maturity. Scouts will examine the height, weight, visual body fat, and athleticism to help them come to a conclusion. There are some 20 year old pitchers who have been weightlifting for 3 or 4 years and are so physically developed that it is difficult to project any velocity improvement from maturation. But on the other hand, scouts have seen high school pitchers weighing 165-175 lbs. Adding 2-5 mph on their fastball as they gain weight and strength in pro baseball. The problem is, strength and maturity does not insure added velocity, so this is purely speculative, or "playing a hunch."
Each Major League team has their own report forms for evaluations, and these items are on them. Arm action and fastball grades are perhaps the two most important evaluations. Arm action evaluations are important because they will tell a team if there is a "better than average" chance of a future injury, because of how the players arm works. Arm actions are difficult to change in pitchers, and there are risks involved in changing how the arm works - velocity may decrease, the angle of the breaking ball will probably change, and the pitching arm is susceptible to injury because the muscles are being used differently. So the arm action had better be able to work efficiently and resist injury.
The fastball evaluation is largely dependent on velocity, but movement and how hitters react to it is also very important. You can teach a fastball how to move, but velocity is God-given. A Major League pitcher had better be able to have enough velocity or movement to get the best hitters in the world out.
Fast Ball: We start with this because it is the most obvious. Scouts want to see a pitcher'' average velocity - what your fastball pitches at on a consistent basis throughout a game. (some scouts call it "the cruising speed") Your top velocity is also noted and may be used, depending on your age and mechanics, to project a better fastball grade in the future. Along with radar gun readings, a scout must look at how the baseball moves, sinks, cuts, etc. in order to complete the fastball grade. If you throw 90 - 91 mph, but it is straight as an arrow and gets hit frequently, your fastball may be given a below average grade despite it's velocity.
The following fastball velocities are Major League Baseball pitcher ratings
Very Above Average 94+ mph
Above Average 92 - 93 mph
Average 89 - 91 mph
Below Average 87 - 88 mph
Very Below Average 85 - 86 mph
(Left-handed pitchers are graded on the same scale, but fastball velocities are usually given less weight if their breaking balls and change-ups are effective.)
Arm Action: Scouts will note at what arm angle you throw from. Moving from highest release point to the lowest, the arm angles are: over-hand, high 3-quarter, 3-quarter, low 3-quarter, or sidearm. Next, scouts will determine how much tension, or effort, is in the arm action. A max-effort pitcher is tough on his arm and risks injury, as opposed to someone who is smooth and effortless. Pure arm speed is also noted, which usually translates to tighter rotation and better velocity with pitches. A pitcher's arm action will also determine what type f break a curve or slider will have (down break, sweeping, sharp, loose, hanging, etc).
Delivery: Are pitching mechanics clean and smooth, or is there work to be done with the mechanics? There are a wide variety of mechanical flaws that may prohibit a pitcher from being efficient and consistent. Scouts need to note both the good and the bad, or what needs improvement.
Breaking Pitches: This includes curves, sliders and screwballs. A major league pitcher needs at least two quality pitches to keep hitters off-balance. Scouts need to grade the effectiveness of the breaking balls on a Major League scale. Good breaking balls have velocity, they break late (close to home plate), have a tight rotation (tougher to read the spin), and hitters struggle to make solid contact with them.
Other Pitches: This includes the split-finger, change-up, knuckle balls, etc. Again velocity, rotation, sharpness, and how hitters react to them will help determine their grade.
Aggressiveness: Does the pitcher go after hitters with his fastball? Does he challenge hitters with his best stuff? Does he work quickly on the mound between pitches? Does he intimidate hitters with his body language and attitude?
Baseball Instincts: Does he have a feel for pitching (knowing when to use his fastball or when to go off-speed); Is there field awareness for where base runners are and where the play needs to be made; does he back-up bases and cover first base when necessary; and does he support his teammates after an error is made?
Control: Can the pitcher pitch, or does he just throw in the direction of the plate? Can he locate his fastball for a strike when behind in the count? Does he pitch ahead-in-the-count, or behind? On average, a good inning for a pitcher would be 15 pitches or less. Greg Maddux of the Braves once threw a complete, nine inning game on 78 pitches, which is fewer than 9 pitches an inning ... on average.
Physical Maturity: Scouts will evaluate a pitcher's body to determine if he "feels" the pitcher can improve his velocity in the future with added strength and natural, physical maturity. Scouts will examine the height, weight, visual body fat, and athleticism to help them come to a conclusion. There are some 20 year old pitchers who have been weightlifting for 3 or 4 years and are so physically developed that it is difficult to project any velocity improvement from maturation. But on the other hand, scouts have seen high school pitchers weighing 165-175 lbs. Adding 2-5 mph on their fastball as they gain weight and strength in pro baseball. The problem is, strength and maturity does not insure added velocity, so this is purely speculative, or "playing a hunch."
Each Major League team has their own report forms for evaluations, and these items are on them. Arm action and fastball grades are perhaps the two most important evaluations. Arm action evaluations are important because they will tell a team if there is a "better than average" chance of a future injury, because of how the players arm works. Arm actions are difficult to change in pitchers, and there are risks involved in changing how the arm works - velocity may decrease, the angle of the breaking ball will probably change, and the pitching arm is susceptible to injury because the muscles are being used differently. So the arm action had better be able to work efficiently and resist injury.
The fastball evaluation is largely dependent on velocity, but movement and how hitters react to it is also very important. You can teach a fastball how to move, but velocity is God-given. A Major League pitcher had better be able to have enough velocity or movement to get the best hitters in the world out.
BheadDoll, I appreciate the fact that your son has had success pitching
against "drafted players, minor leaguers and good college players" with an 82-84 mph fastball. I'm sure with growth and maturity his velocity will improve and he may some day have success in the Major Leagues as well. Hope he does. It won't be with an 84 mph fastball.
This thread keeps moving away from it's original question.
It'sNOT "Can a pitcher be successful throwing off-speed pitches and a well-below average fastball with good control in HS, College, or Minor Leagues?"
It's "What stat does a scout look for in a college pitcher?" Scout meaning ML scout if im reading TPM correct.
I think most of us and knowledgeable baseball people agree that ML scouts
do not care about stats, but if there were one "stat" that would give a scout a verifiable indication of a pitcher's avg. fastball velocity then that would be the stat they would use. THERE ISN"T ONE. However, a college pitcher with 160 k's in 80 innings will bring some scouts to see him to see if he is throwing hard. If his competition has been awful and he is throwing 84 they will pack up and leave. PERIOD. If the pitcher has 160 K's in 80 innings and the college is in a credible conference- you can believe they already know about him.
82-84 mph in college will get no interest from a scout unless the kid is a lefty-and then only minimal interest if the kid is projectible.
Please, I mean no disrespect to your son-I have one also throwing 82-84 in college right now and has been red-shirted this year. He also has had success against pitching against BBAmerica's #1 ranked player of a few years ago and KC's first round pick the previous year. He would get bombed in the Majors.
He also knows that if he wants to get any interest at all from scouts he must
get his velocity to at least 88-90.
Someone please start a thread "Asking whether control pitchers can be successful in college". I'm through with this one
.
against "drafted players, minor leaguers and good college players" with an 82-84 mph fastball. I'm sure with growth and maturity his velocity will improve and he may some day have success in the Major Leagues as well. Hope he does. It won't be with an 84 mph fastball.
This thread keeps moving away from it's original question.
It'sNOT "Can a pitcher be successful throwing off-speed pitches and a well-below average fastball with good control in HS, College, or Minor Leagues?"
It's "What stat does a scout look for in a college pitcher?" Scout meaning ML scout if im reading TPM correct.
I think most of us and knowledgeable baseball people agree that ML scouts
do not care about stats, but if there were one "stat" that would give a scout a verifiable indication of a pitcher's avg. fastball velocity then that would be the stat they would use. THERE ISN"T ONE. However, a college pitcher with 160 k's in 80 innings will bring some scouts to see him to see if he is throwing hard. If his competition has been awful and he is throwing 84 they will pack up and leave. PERIOD. If the pitcher has 160 K's in 80 innings and the college is in a credible conference- you can believe they already know about him.
82-84 mph in college will get no interest from a scout unless the kid is a lefty-and then only minimal interest if the kid is projectible.
Please, I mean no disrespect to your son-I have one also throwing 82-84 in college right now and has been red-shirted this year. He also has had success against pitching against BBAmerica's #1 ranked player of a few years ago and KC's first round pick the previous year. He would get bombed in the Majors.
He also knows that if he wants to get any interest at all from scouts he must
get his velocity to at least 88-90.
Someone please start a thread "Asking whether control pitchers can be successful in college". I'm through with this one
.
Moc,
Good post.
PG and williebobo,
Thanks.
Good post.
PG and williebobo,
Thanks.
MOC1
Taking into account everything that you have stated, keeping in alignment with TPM's question, and reading down the list of PGStaff's very good post, and the excellent input from Williebobo...it is obvious that velocity is the one stat that tips the scales for scouts. Period.
Velocity...that should answer the question for all pitcher's who aspire to pitch above the college level. If you don't throw above the 92 - 93 mph level kiss your butt goodbye.
Funny when my son was 8 y/o I had a scout tell me the very same thing. He said don't even bother having your son tryout at a MLB tryout unless he can hit 93 on the gun.
Every year my son has wanted to tryout, and I refuse...he hit 91 but that's not 93.
Thanks for confirming what that scout told me so many years ago. It saved me wasted time and money...but it doesn't mean that a pitcher can't have and enjoy being a very good College level pitcher.
Taking into account everything that you have stated, keeping in alignment with TPM's question, and reading down the list of PGStaff's very good post, and the excellent input from Williebobo...it is obvious that velocity is the one stat that tips the scales for scouts. Period.
Velocity...that should answer the question for all pitcher's who aspire to pitch above the college level. If you don't throw above the 92 - 93 mph level kiss your butt goodbye.
Funny when my son was 8 y/o I had a scout tell me the very same thing. He said don't even bother having your son tryout at a MLB tryout unless he can hit 93 on the gun.
Every year my son has wanted to tryout, and I refuse...he hit 91 but that's not 93.
Thanks for confirming what that scout told me so many years ago. It saved me wasted time and money...but it doesn't mean that a pitcher can't have and enjoy being a very good College level pitcher.
RR,
None of my business but... Why stop him from trying out? What is there to lose?
88-91 can create serious interest, especially if he shows some other things. If a scout told you that (93) was the only way, he was pulling your leg. There are all kinds of pitchers drafted who don’t throw 93. I was referring to velocity MUCH lower than topping at 91 in that post.
If he can "pitch" well in the upper 80s and has a good breaking ball and shows abilty to touch 90-91... He's a professional prospect. Especially if he loves it!
Best of luck to your son.
None of my business but... Why stop him from trying out? What is there to lose?
88-91 can create serious interest, especially if he shows some other things. If a scout told you that (93) was the only way, he was pulling your leg. There are all kinds of pitchers drafted who don’t throw 93. I was referring to velocity MUCH lower than topping at 91 in that post.
If he can "pitch" well in the upper 80s and has a good breaking ball and shows abilty to touch 90-91... He's a professional prospect. Especially if he loves it!
Best of luck to your son.
MOC1 not offence taken and I agree 100%. We have answered the uestion many times that was asked. The reason he is in US college ball is to see if he can take the step up to 90+. Most of the interest he has had has been from US scouts while on trips. We are just thrilled that he made the travel roster in his freshman year and were not expecting that although we had high hopes. A father of a pitcher is constantly wondering how far he will go. He 1s 6'4" with long skinny arms and fingers. I have seen scouts look at his hands and tell the others look at this guys hands. We chose schools mainly based on the quality of competition, academics, great location and good coaching.
I have read atleast 100 ML reports and often get a laugh out of a few. The guys I gave as examples are not to lump velocity guys into a group and trash them but more a question of what were they thinking when they drafted that guy. Last year there were guys taken out of low ranked schools and conferences. The draft to me is very subjective and it is much like being recruited by schools. Just because you sign dosent mean you will play.
PG would be very familiar with Loewen, Francis and Davidson all 90+ LHP. These guys are great pitchers. Francis was a Barely 80mph pitcher at freshman year. Tried unsuccessfully to get a US scholarship and was drafted by the Rockies. He spent only about 1 yr in the minors (1.8 M. bounus). Loewen who I have seen pitch many times is amazing (4 yr deal 7.2M, 3.2 Bonus) is still in the minors after 3 yaers. Davidson who my son has been a teammate with when he played up(3 Years older) has been in the minors for 3+ years. These are all great pitchers with velocity and control. Davidson had some problems when he got sick in Cuba while playing with our national team and his velocity suffered and they found scare tissue on his L shoulder in 1st year single A.
I have read atleast 100 ML reports and often get a laugh out of a few. The guys I gave as examples are not to lump velocity guys into a group and trash them but more a question of what were they thinking when they drafted that guy. Last year there were guys taken out of low ranked schools and conferences. The draft to me is very subjective and it is much like being recruited by schools. Just because you sign dosent mean you will play.
PG would be very familiar with Loewen, Francis and Davidson all 90+ LHP. These guys are great pitchers. Francis was a Barely 80mph pitcher at freshman year. Tried unsuccessfully to get a US scholarship and was drafted by the Rockies. He spent only about 1 yr in the minors (1.8 M. bounus). Loewen who I have seen pitch many times is amazing (4 yr deal 7.2M, 3.2 Bonus) is still in the minors after 3 yaers. Davidson who my son has been a teammate with when he played up(3 Years older) has been in the minors for 3+ years. These are all great pitchers with velocity and control. Davidson had some problems when he got sick in Cuba while playing with our national team and his velocity suffered and they found scare tissue on his L shoulder in 1st year single A.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
88-91 can create serious interest, especially if he shows some other things. If a scout told you that (93) was the only way, he was pulling your leg. There are all kinds of pitchers drafted who don’t throw 93. I was referring to velocity MUCH lower than topping at 91 in that post.
This is very true and good advice.
MOC,
It is still the fall, even if he is red shirted now, come spring, things can and do change.
My 04 is a 83-84 RHP, maybe gets an 86 now and then. He was going to redshirt his freshman year, then with injuries and whatnot he got a shot. He took full advantage.
He plays Juco region X, so no, we are not talking ACC baseball, but has pitched against some guys that are now either in the minors or the ACC and the like.
My opinion? K to BB ratio, and pitch ability. Having faith in your pitches, yourself and if coach is calling the pitches, faith in him or yourself to shake him off!
Still at 6' 167, he's not getting interest from larger schools, let alone MLB. But will he have a great time pitching in college? He already has!! 65 more days till opening day.
It is still the fall, even if he is red shirted now, come spring, things can and do change.
My 04 is a 83-84 RHP, maybe gets an 86 now and then. He was going to redshirt his freshman year, then with injuries and whatnot he got a shot. He took full advantage.
He plays Juco region X, so no, we are not talking ACC baseball, but has pitched against some guys that are now either in the minors or the ACC and the like.
My opinion? K to BB ratio, and pitch ability. Having faith in your pitches, yourself and if coach is calling the pitches, faith in him or yourself to shake him off!
Still at 6' 167, he's not getting interest from larger schools, let alone MLB. But will he have a great time pitching in college? He already has!! 65 more days till opening day.
From my '02's away message, not sure who wrote it:
It's not about getting a scholarship, getting drafted, or making Sports Center. It's a deep need in us that comes from the heart. We need to practice, play, to lift, to hustle, to sweat, to compete. We do it all for our teammates. We don't lift weights with a future Olympic wrestler; we lift with a future doctor. We don't run with a future Wimbledon champion; we run with a future CEO. It's a bigger part of us than our friends and family can understand. Sometimes we play for 200,000 fans, sometimes for 25. But we still play hard. You cheer for us because you know us. You know more than just our names. Like all of you, we are still students first. We don't sign autographs for money. But we do sign graduate school applications, MCAT exams, and student body petitions. When we miss a kick, or strike out, we don't let down an entire state. We only let down our teammates, coaches, and fans. But the hurt in our hearts is the same. We train hard. Lift, throw, run, kick, shoot, dribble, and lift some more, and in the morning we go to class. Still the next day in class we are nothing more than students. It's about pride; in ourselves, in our school. It's about our love and passion for the game. And when it's all over; when we walk off that court or field for the last time, our hearts crumble. Those tears are real. But deep down inside, we are very proud of ourselves. We will forever be what few can claim: college athletes.
It's not about getting a scholarship, getting drafted, or making Sports Center. It's a deep need in us that comes from the heart. We need to practice, play, to lift, to hustle, to sweat, to compete. We do it all for our teammates. We don't lift weights with a future Olympic wrestler; we lift with a future doctor. We don't run with a future Wimbledon champion; we run with a future CEO. It's a bigger part of us than our friends and family can understand. Sometimes we play for 200,000 fans, sometimes for 25. But we still play hard. You cheer for us because you know us. You know more than just our names. Like all of you, we are still students first. We don't sign autographs for money. But we do sign graduate school applications, MCAT exams, and student body petitions. When we miss a kick, or strike out, we don't let down an entire state. We only let down our teammates, coaches, and fans. But the hurt in our hearts is the same. We train hard. Lift, throw, run, kick, shoot, dribble, and lift some more, and in the morning we go to class. Still the next day in class we are nothing more than students. It's about pride; in ourselves, in our school. It's about our love and passion for the game. And when it's all over; when we walk off that court or field for the last time, our hearts crumble. Those tears are real. But deep down inside, we are very proud of ourselves. We will forever be what few can claim: college athletes.
02^04Mom,
Who ever wrote that is one very smart cookie.
College sports (baseball) can be the greatest experience in a persons life. The level doesn't matter, it's all great and it will never be forgotten by any individual who experiences it.!
Thanks for sharing that message.
Who ever wrote that is one very smart cookie.
College sports (baseball) can be the greatest experience in a persons life. The level doesn't matter, it's all great and it will never be forgotten by any individual who experiences it.!
Thanks for sharing that message.
02^04Mom,
I like that, have heard something similar to it during an ACC game on TV. And also the SEC has a similar commercial.
Since the post is winding down some what,I, for some reason am with you on the K/BB ratio. I noticed this year in the game stats after each game, they also listed how many pitches the pitcher threw in that game for strikes. I had never once heard any coach in HS talk about how many pitches my son threw for strikes, only last season. So I assume it has some importance.
I do like PG's take on the importance of stats, the scouts are only interested in the ones the pitcher will compile someday in the Major leagues.
I like that, have heard something similar to it during an ACC game on TV. And also the SEC has a similar commercial.
Since the post is winding down some what,I, for some reason am with you on the K/BB ratio. I noticed this year in the game stats after each game, they also listed how many pitches the pitcher threw in that game for strikes. I had never once heard any coach in HS talk about how many pitches my son threw for strikes, only last season. So I assume it has some importance.
I do like PG's take on the importance of stats, the scouts are only interested in the ones the pitcher will compile someday in the Major leagues.
Once a pitcher shows he has draft potential, certain stats are more valuable than others. Sometimes the lack of certain numbers can create negative concerns more than good numbers actually helping. (if that makes any sense)
Some of these stats include those that everyone is mentioning here. Another important stat is GB vs FB outs. A pitcher getting a large % of his outs on ground balls vs fly balls is a big plus in most cases. Ground ball pitchers are in demand, especially if they have average or better MLB velocity. It usually means the pitcher has a good sinking fastball or split finger and a good breaking ball. The sinker is a big pitch in professional baseball these days. Nearly every MLB pitcher you see with an average or below average fastball has a real good sinker.
Some of these stats include those that everyone is mentioning here. Another important stat is GB vs FB outs. A pitcher getting a large % of his outs on ground balls vs fly balls is a big plus in most cases. Ground ball pitchers are in demand, especially if they have average or better MLB velocity. It usually means the pitcher has a good sinking fastball or split finger and a good breaking ball. The sinker is a big pitch in professional baseball these days. Nearly every MLB pitcher you see with an average or below average fastball has a real good sinker.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Once a pitcher shows he has draft potential, certain stats are more valuable than others. Sometimes the lack of certain numbers can create negative concerns more than good numbers actually helping. (if that makes any sense)
Some of these stats include those that everyone is mentioning here. Another important stat is GB vs FB outs. A pitcher getting a large % of his outs on ground balls vs fly balls is a big plus in most cases. Ground ball pitchers are in demand, especially if they have average or better MLB velocity. It usually means the pitcher has a good sinking fastball or split finger and a good breaking ball. The sinker is a big pitch in professional baseball these days. Nearly every MLB pitcher you see with an average or below average fastball has a real good sinker.
PG,
I am hoping that parents of young pitchers will read carefully alll that you have posted, including the above.
Thanks.
Pro scouts look at several things, and usually stats isn't something that is on the radar.
Projectability - where they see this kid in 4-5 years, in terms of body size, and in terms of mental state, those are huge when a scout looks at players.
Mentally - Does this prospect "have it upstairs", and is he he going to be the type of player to not fold under pressure.
Medical History - Has the prospect had a history of medical problems in the past, that might possible hinder his athletic "ceiling"?
I'm a big fan of stats in baseball, love to look at them, and keep track of them. But they don't play a big part when a player is being looked at by pro scouts. I know scouts, I have talked to scouts, and seen scouts in action when they were looking at my nephew a few years back. Most of them could have cared less about the outcome of the game, how many strikeouts he had, or what his stats were. They had their ouwn agendas when watching the game, and stats didn't play a big part.
http://www.HackettBaseball.com
Projectability - where they see this kid in 4-5 years, in terms of body size, and in terms of mental state, those are huge when a scout looks at players.
Mentally - Does this prospect "have it upstairs", and is he he going to be the type of player to not fold under pressure.
Medical History - Has the prospect had a history of medical problems in the past, that might possible hinder his athletic "ceiling"?
I'm a big fan of stats in baseball, love to look at them, and keep track of them. But they don't play a big part when a player is being looked at by pro scouts. I know scouts, I have talked to scouts, and seen scouts in action when they were looking at my nephew a few years back. Most of them could have cared less about the outcome of the game, how many strikeouts he had, or what his stats were. They had their ouwn agendas when watching the game, and stats didn't play a big part.
http://www.HackettBaseball.com
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
If you were a scout, which one do you feel is the most important stat to have for college pitchers?
When I go to a college game and pick up a stat sheet, the thing I look at the most is how many walks in how many innings.[/QUOTE
Thanks for your opinion, and thanks for not mentioning the V word.
FINALLY! An honest-to-God scout offers his view to this thread; which seems to have a life of its own! Thanks, bbscout!
quote:FINALLY! An honest-to-God scout offers his view to this thread; which seems to have a life of its own! Thanks, bbscout!
Prepster,
No one has more repect for Doug's opinion than me. But the comment, "FINALLY! An honest-to-god scout offers his view" is kind of degrading to everyone elses opinion. If someone was at one time an "honest-to-god scout", why did they become less knowledgable now that they are doing something else?
Even "bbscout" will admit the number of walks given up by a low 80s pitcher is kind of insignificant in most cases! If you don't have the tools, it doesn't matter what stat you look at.
Now if your looking at someone who throws average or close to it, there are some stats more important than others, including what has been mentioned.
No offense intended, PG; and, I apologize for conveying that sense. The fact is that your authoritative views have benefitted many, myself included; on this thread and many others.
I suppose my real frustration on this thread has come from its being used as a platform by some to drag us all into this never-ending debate over the relative value of velocity; a debate which digresses at times into a generalized criticism of the process used to evaluate prospective professional pitchers.
I suppose my real frustration on this thread has come from its being used as a platform by some to drag us all into this never-ending debate over the relative value of velocity; a debate which digresses at times into a generalized criticism of the process used to evaluate prospective professional pitchers.
.
IMO...No simple one stop answer...but lots of good info y all on this thread...
My favorites...
Start with Willie BoBo's velocity ratings...(qualifying velocities)...
Then use PG's excellent..."They more interested if..." phrasing that counts the tools in the toolbox...then start adding up the tools Willie BoBo and PG offer...
Finish off with 02/04Moms perspective...
And you got yourself a winner...
IMO...No simple one stop answer...but lots of good info y all on this thread...
My favorites...
Start with Willie BoBo's velocity ratings...(qualifying velocities)...
Then use PG's excellent..."They more interested if..." phrasing that counts the tools in the toolbox...then start adding up the tools Willie BoBo and PG offer...
Finish off with 02/04Moms perspective...
And you got yourself a winner...
I find my friend Prepster to be right. I don't think he meant to offend anyone. He is certainly not putting down anyone's opinion.
I asked a question, not realizing it again would get into the debate of pitcher's velocity, same as in every other post, over and over. We know that velocity is important, that's been established, but what other one thing (or two) is taken into consideration.
Thanks all. With all that has been stated, I am going to go with the K/BB ratio as maybe a most important stat, as I heard, which let me to this start this poll.
I asked a question, not realizing it again would get into the debate of pitcher's velocity, same as in every other post, over and over. We know that velocity is important, that's been established, but what other one thing (or two) is taken into consideration.
Thanks all. With all that has been stated, I am going to go with the K/BB ratio as maybe a most important stat, as I heard, which let me to this start this poll.
I apologize prepster. That was stupid on my part. It was getting late.
Perhaps a good example of the value of velocity would be Colt Griffin (1st round).
Another example out of college last year would be Jason Neighborgall (Georgia Tech). In 101 college innings he walked 110. Suspect mechanics, poor command, and at times has shown to lack poise and confidence.
He has high 90s to triple digit fastball and high 80s slider.He was the first pick of the 3rd round and signed for $500,000.
Obviously Neighborgall had first round velocity, but with undraftable results and control. This resulted in a half a million dollars and he went before a lot of guys who pitched much better and of course, much better stats.
I'm not saying we should all agree with the system, but that's the way it is.
Perhaps a good example of the value of velocity would be Colt Griffin (1st round).
Another example out of college last year would be Jason Neighborgall (Georgia Tech). In 101 college innings he walked 110. Suspect mechanics, poor command, and at times has shown to lack poise and confidence.
He has high 90s to triple digit fastball and high 80s slider.He was the first pick of the 3rd round and signed for $500,000.
Obviously Neighborgall had first round velocity, but with undraftable results and control. This resulted in a half a million dollars and he went before a lot of guys who pitched much better and of course, much better stats.
I'm not saying we should all agree with the system, but that's the way it is.
PG,
Again, I don't think Prepster's comments were directed at you. You have given us valuable information and I hope that others will listen.
Jason was mentioned by Fungo in his post. I was referring to Colin Mahoney in one of my posts, 28 innings pitched in college, fourth round. I would say if you reach triple digits, it's a given you are going to be drafted, whether you walk every other batter or not.
Again, I don't think Prepster's comments were directed at you. You have given us valuable information and I hope that others will listen.
Jason was mentioned by Fungo in his post. I was referring to Colin Mahoney in one of my posts, 28 innings pitched in college, fourth round. I would say if you reach triple digits, it's a given you are going to be drafted, whether you walk every other batter or not.