College questions

From my perspective of seeing many college games over the years, it typically comes down to metrics, physical gifts, and projectability separating across D1, D2, D3.

I've seen a handful of guys get to the next level (MiLB).  They have elite, unmistakable skills.  The successful ones work incredibly hard to develop their physical gifts.  Their "can-do" attitudes are off the charts.

@Dadof3 posted:

So I’m watching college ball on tv, got me thinking.  What separates, d1, d2 and d3 players? 

There's the upper end of D1, the middle and the bottom. The upper end are the special breed of players. Most of the bottom D1 players aren't any better than the best of D2.  Some are worse.. The middle? The difference between the middle of D1 and the best D2 is often size. Same talent at times but the 6-2 players go D1 and the 5-9 player is D2.

D3? Same deal - there's a top, bottom and middle. All the divisions are not the same at the top and bottom. And, there's overlap between all three. It's not a pure stack of 1, 2 and then 3.

A player can be on the right travel team. But when he gets to college he still has to earn and hold on to his position.

Where a kid plays college ball may depend on when he blossoms as a prospect. It’s why you see players from mid majors and lower in MLB

@Francis7 posted:

There's the upper end of D1, the middle and the bottom. The upper end are the special breed of players. Most of the bottom D1 players aren't any better than the best of D2.  Some are worse.. The middle? The difference between the middle of D1 and the best D2 is often size. Same talent at times but the 6-2 players go D1 and the 5-9 player is D2.

D3? Same deal - there's a top, bottom and middle. All the divisions are not the same at the top and bottom. And, there's overlap between all three. It's not a pure stack of 1, 2 and then 3.

Then there’s the lower end of D3. I was out biking with my son one day. We stopped to watch a lower end D3 game. After two innings my son commented, “Neither of these teams could beat my high school team.”

His junior year roster had 3 future D1’s, a D2 and 8 D3s.

@RJM posted:

Then there’s the lower end of D3. I was out biking with my son one day. We stopped to watch a lower end D3 game. After two innings my son commented, “Neither of these teams could beat my high school team.”

His junior year roster had 3 future D1’s, a D2 and 8 D3s.

Wow!  That’s crazy to imagine that a hs team could be a lower level d3 team.  Interesting.

@RJM posted:

Then there’s the lower end of D3. I was out biking with my son one day. We stopped to watch a lower end D3 game. After two innings my son commented, “Neither of these teams could beat my high school team.”

His junior year roster had 3 future D1’s, a D2 and 8 D3s.

Oh god for sure, some of those D3 programs are complete garbage. Likewise, some of those high school teams are pretty good, so I could definitely see that.

@RJM posted:

Where a kid plays college ball may depend on when he blossoms as a prospect. It’s why you see players from mid majors and lower in MLB

A guy like Shane Bieber is a good example of this.  Obviously he was a good player but not a P5 prospect out of HS, barely touching 90.  Now look at him.

Cool story about Shane

@Dadof3 posted:

So I’m watching college ball on tv, got me thinking.  What separates, d1, d2 and d3 players?  Is it who they played for on their summer teams (who has the connections and who doesn’t)?  Is it all things equal but one runs a 6.6 and one runs a 7.0?  Is it one can hit 95 and the other ones can only hit 90?  Is there such a thing as a “bad” college player?  

second part; do some of these kids who bat 5,6,7,8,9 ever make the mibl?  I guess the question should be, what separates a stud on d1 versus a draft pick?  

If you have sons that love to play and wish to play in college. This website has tons and tons of  information that will help you  understand the differences in the divisions, as well as the process. I see that you have a 2023. That's right around the corner. I am not as familiar with D3 baseball but between D1 and D2 it's usually in the arms.

At this point 2023's are sharing video and emails with coaches, planning on attending camps.

Also, as a suggestion, attend college games.

As to your second part, yes players that bat in any order can get drafted. There is a lot more that goes into the draft process than where you hit in the lineup.

@RJM posted:

Then there’s the lower end of D3. I was out biking with my son one day. We stopped to watch a lower end D3 game. After two innings my son commented, “Neither of these teams could beat my high school team.”

His junior year roster had 3 future D1’s, a D2 and 8 D3s.

I don’t understand the point of this post.

Yes, on balance D3 players are not as talented as D1 and D2 players, and their level of play may not be on par with some high schools. But I guarantee those lowly D3 players are playing to the best of their ability, are glad to be out there, and are working hard. And they are doing it purely out of love for the game. They deserve our admiration and respect, not scorn.

Good grief.

@DD 2024 posted:

I don’t understand the point of this post.

Yes, on balance D3 players are not as talented as D1 and D2 players, and their level of play may not be on par with some high schools. But I guarantee those lowly D3 players are playing to the best of their ability, are glad to be out there, and are working hard. And they are doing it purely out of love for the game. They deserve our admiration and respect, not scorn.

Good grief.

I agree. There are also lots of folks here whose sons made their choice for academics over the baseball program.

JMO

@DD 2024 posted:

I don’t understand the point of this post.

Yes, on balance D3 players are not as talented as D1 and D2 players, and their level of play may not be on par with some high schools. But I guarantee those lowly D3 players are playing to the best of their ability, are glad to be out there, and are working hard. And they are doing it purely out of love for the game. They deserve our admiration and respect, not scorn.

Good grief.

+1

And it's not just love of the game. It's love of the team.

@Dadof3 posted:

So I’m watching college ball on tv, got me thinking.  What separates, d1, d2 and d3 players?  Is it who they played for on their summer teams (who has the connections and who doesn’t)?  Is it all things equal but one runs a 6.6 and one runs a 7.0?  Is it one can hit 95 and the other ones can only hit 90?  Is there such a thing as a “bad” college player?  

The OP phrased the question this way.  I think most would answer, it's skills, numbers, baseball ability.  Travel coaches don't recommend players who don't meet the requirements of a college, because they would destroy their credibility.  Travel coaches/organizations DO recruit players with D1 skills, who they can recommend to those schools, then they can claim a part in their success.  So if it looks like certain organizations get their players to top schools, that's because the organization recruited good players to their travel teams.

Having said that, especially for hitters, it makes a difference who you play against.  Top organizations play in tournaments against each other, hitters face good pitching, which makes it easier for college coaches to evaluate them.

Each level has different sub-levels, as Francis7 said.  Each team has a different number of players, from 35 at D1 to 50+ at some D2s and D3s.  On some teams, there's quite a difference between those who get playing time and bench players - again due to skills, experience against good teams, how hard they work at it in college, etc.

@XFactor posted:

Oh god for sure, some of those D3 programs are complete garbage. Likewise, some of those high school teams are pretty good, so I could definitely see that.

Not garbage. Made up of players and coaches who are doing their best, without recognition and with limited resources.

disrespect of players, their love of team and game = garbage

I was actually interested in hearing the comment  about the bad d3 teams.  It wasn’t a shot at the players, it was a comment.   I am interested in hearing about all the different levels of college players.  I was watching the game on tv (which my 2023 is starting to watch with me) and just curious what separates some of these kids from the milb as well how some got picked to be on these powerhouse teams.

@Dadof3 posted:

Wow!  That’s crazy to imagine that a hs team could be a lower level d3 team.  Interesting.

There are some lower end D3s whose recruiting isn’t anything more than “who got accepted who played high school ball last year?” One of the teams I referenced was a player who didn’t start for a 2A (smallest) high school program.

@TPM posted:

I agree. There are also lots of folks here whose sons made their choice for academics over the baseball program.

JMO

These two schools weren’t academic choices. They have 95% acceptance rates. Only 40% graduate. The point of my post is just like D1 there are various levels of D3. Like a quality D2 can beat a lower level D1 a quality high school team can beat a low level D3.

What I’ve seen occur at these kinds of schools is the kid is a low level academic talent. He’s shows up gung-ho to continue his athletic career. Between struggling academically and losing a lot of games these kids lose their passion and leave college after a year or two. They were really only there for their sport. This is the experience and observation of the older brother of my son’s high school girlfriend.

There’s a lot to consider when choosing the right program. The wrong choice can be a disaster. To me, knowing there are D3’s that aren’t good enough to beat a good high school team is knowledge acquired.

@RJM posted:

There’s a lot to consider when choosing the right program. The wrong choice can be a disaster. To me, knowing there are D3’s that aren’t good enough to beat a good high school team is knowledge acquired.

Agree but comments made by others led to a few unnecessary comments.

My suggestion again to Dof3 is do some reading and do your homework.

JMO

Dadof3,

anotherparent gave you some good answers. She has spent lots of time reading posts here.

Also you can go to D1 Baseball, either join or first read on Twitter. And read over Perfect Game stats of players to understand what makes a really good player a top tier player as well as a pro prospect.

Thanks, I wasn’t talking about my son, just curious watching the game and the future of some of these kids.  I’m not worried about my son. He’s a young 2023 with time still on his side.   I was just curious about others personal stories, about their kid, someone they knew, someone they heard of, etc...

@TPM posted:

I agree. There are also lots of folks here whose sons made their choice for academics over the baseball program.

JMO

And it worked out fine for him.

What son saw in the difference of playing for a Mid Level HA D1 and against P5 D1s, was the pitching (every reliever topped or sat mid 90's) and more importantly the DEPTH of those top clubs. Typically against P5         RipkenFanSon's team's top 2 SP would keep them in games (even be ahead)--mid relief was different. As for the position players, I observed that most of the P5 players get down the line quickly, and not just the CF. But regardless of team it's all about finding the right fit for your son, be it D1, D2, D3.

For almost all players it’s about the next forty years, not the next four years. So regardless of baseball level it’s about the best academic fit.

A friend’s son played on a HA D3 national champion. The dog pile looked just as fun as the one in Omaha. Now he’s making more money than most of the kids who were in Omaha working on Wall Street.

@DD 2024 posted:

Not garbage. Made up of players and coaches who are doing their best, without recognition and with limited resources.

disrespect of players, their love of team and game = garbage

I appreciate the lack of nuance with more lack of nuance. In the general sense of, "Are there really bad D3 programs, and really good high school programs, and can the really good high school team win against the really bad D3 team?" The answer is yes, there are in fact really bad teams. The slang for that would be garbage. I'm not insinuating every player/coach on a bad team is garbage. Likewise, not every player/coach on a great team is some upstanding great person. Some are absolute scum.

Are there really bad players on D3 teams, and/or really bad coaches on D3 teams? Absolutely. Are there players that play at the D3 level that do not try their best, absolutely. Are there coaches that are basically monkeys with a uniform that fill out a line up card and sit back, even yes at the D3 level, of course. So while I'm not intending to paint with a big broad brush, not everybody in every situation is sitting there trying their hardest for the love of the game, either. Not even at the D1 level.

In baseball, everything is relative.  One of the things I look at when watching a game is the speed of the game... how quick the top players are, how fast they react to hard ground balls, how fast they can turn a double play, how quick they are on back picks, even bunt plays.  Top teams and top players play fast.  Lesser players, regardless of how fast they can run or how hard they can throw or hit just can't keep up.  Lots of guys can put up big numbers when standing still, but when you see top players move on the field they are different.   When you've seen enough games you can tell a top team, a top player based on the way they play.  This is why some guys with big numbers aren't getting attention, while other players with similar or lesser numbers are getting a lot of attention.

@Ripken Fan posted:

What son saw in the difference of playing for a Mid Level HA D1 and against P5 D1s, was the pitching (every reliever topped or sat mid 90's) and more importantly the DEPTH of those top clubs. Typically against P5         RipkenFanSon's team's top 2 SP would keep them in games (even be ahead)--mid relief was different. As for the position players, I observed that most of the P5 players get down the line quickly, and not just the CF. But regardless of team it's all about finding the right fit for your son, be it D1, D2, D3.

100% Ripken.  It was fairly obvious to me in the 2012 NCAA regionals when I saw UNC march out multiple, very tall RHP and LHP flamethrowers in a somewhat competitive game for the first 5 innings.   Coach Fox would signal to the bullpen on match ups he wanted, and another P would pop out and run to the mound.   It was like the UNC relievers were coming out of a clown car.  I have a witness...Prepster was there!

@XFactor posted:

I appreciate the lack of nuance with more lack of nuance. In the general sense of, "Are there really bad D3 programs, and really good high school programs, and can the really good high school team win against the really bad D3 team?" The answer is yes, there are in fact really bad teams. The slang for that would be garbage. I'm not insinuating every player/coach on a bad team is garbage. Likewise, not every player/coach on a great team is some upstanding great person. Some are absolute scum.

Are there really bad players on D3 teams, and/or really bad coaches on D3 teams? Absolutely. Are there players that play at the D3 level that do not try their best, absolutely. Are there coaches that are basically monkeys with a uniform that fill out a line up card and sit back, even yes at the D3 level, of course. So while I'm not intending to paint with a big broad brush, not everybody in every situation is sitting there trying their hardest for the love of the game, either. Not even at the D1 level.

I posted a while ago about how HSBBW was biased towards D1, and mentioned that it was off-putting. I was told by several long-time posters that that was not the case, that I needed to spend more time on here to appreciate how appreciative everyone is of D3/D2/JUCO/NAIA, etc.

Your posts are an excellent example of why my first impression was correct.

@Smitty28 posted:

Lots of guys can put up big numbers when standing still, but when you see top players move on the field they are different.   When you've seen enough games you can tell a top team, a top player based on the way they play.  This is why some guys with big numbers aren't getting attention, while other players with similar or lesser numbers are getting a lot of attention.

100%

Elite players look different on the field. They move faster, make plays others struggle to make, and play with an ease that seems to defy effort.

From the parent of an athlete who's tried to work their way up to elite and not really made it, I am continually amazed at how much of an advantage nature can provide.

I can tell you what the top teams look like.  We played Vandy this week and it was incredible to watch.  Their leadoff hitter is almost unstoppable to keep from stealing bases.  The power between the two teams was incredible.  98 mph looked like 88 because it became so frequent.  But it made 88 look like 78.  The speed on both teams was crazy.  We hit Leiter which is no easy feat.  Actually had a true walk-on for us hit 3 Hr's on Saturday, with 2 being against Leiter, for the second time this season as he also did it in one game against LSU.

I think there are players at every level of baseball that can make it to MLB but I also realized this weekend that playing at the highest level in college makes it an easier job deciding for the scouts.  If a guy can hit HR's against probably the most elite pitcher in college baseball and the flamethrowing closer for Vandy he can hit against anyone.  But I think the lower level of college, especially for hitters but also for pitchers, takes a little more scouting knowledge.  if you can hit or pitch successfully in the SEC or other top conferences you can hit or pitch in the pros.  Hitting and pitching at the lower levels takes a lot more understanding of swing mechanics and pitchability for scouts.  But there are guys who have done it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex

The difference is the player's reflex. From the 35 years of Area Code, Goodwill Series Int'l, Summer Coaching and Coaching at Division 2, I recognized the separation of the player at all level is the ability to "slow the ball" down.

When you watch the MLB middle infielders react to a ball hit off the bat at 100 mph, it is reaction of the "high level" players to "slow the ball". The question: can a quick reflex be taught?

Bob

I'm a generally positive D3 parent.  But I would be the first to say that there's a lot of variability, both within a team, and between teams.  I think that it comes down to what your son wants from a college baseball experience.  There are D3 players who really do want to put baseball first, even though it's "only" D3, and there are D3 players who view it as a way to get a good education and keep doing what they love.  Read this:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...caltech-beats-cal-lu

Is a team where players didn't start for the HS varsity "bad"?   Is a losing team "bad"?  Or maybe it's the team with 50 players that's "bad"?  It all depends on what your expectations are.  Plenty of us support D3 baseball and can explain why (see JCG, above).

My son's HS team is really bad this year.  As in, painful to watch.  Does that mean that playing baseball is a bad experience?  It probably is for some.  Can you be on a "bad" team but have a good experience?

I know many unhappy players, at all college levels.  Does that mean the programs are all "bad" in some way?  Would some of these players have benefited from knowing what they might expect going in  (leaving aside that no-one expected a pandemic)?

@DD 2024 posted:

I posted a while ago about how HSBBW was biased towards D1, and mentioned that it was off-putting. I was told by several long-time posters that that was not the case, that I needed to spend more time on here to appreciate how appreciative everyone is of D3/D2/JUCO/NAIA, etc.

Your posts are an excellent example of why my first impression was correct.

Yes, the world is inherently biased toward D1 college baseball.   It is the NCAAs media, resources and marketing that capture attention.   My parents (in their mid-80s) don't know jack squat about college baseball, but they watch the D1 College World Series every year.  D1 college baseball is what the everyday person knows, and the NCAA is not bashful about it.

However, I would say the folks here @HSBBWeb (that come from all walks of life) that love baseball, aren't nearly as biased and most see the big college baseball picture.  Overall, they do appreciate what it takes to play any level of college baseball.

C'mon DD2024, you've only been around here a few months.  It sounds like you have more to learn young grasshopper.  ;-)  There is no better place to get unbiased views about anything to do with any college baseball level.  There isn't a week that goes by that I don't get a PM from people I've gotten to know discussing their efforts to be recruited across D1 HA and D3 HA schools.  Sometimes I go into excruciating detail, and I've been known to assign homework so they can learn for themselves.  I'm no expert on JUCO, D2 or NAIA, but I certainly know who to go to.  Your first impression was not in the ballpark, as they say.

@Fenway

I believe, I may be wrong, but I thought his comment was directed to xfactor.

I have been here a long time but my knowledge of D3 is not as it should be. Often I ask new webster's to contact Fenway, if they are looking for HA, D3 info.

There are good and not so good programs in all divisions. There also are probably good and not so good coaches as well.

Son has been a player and a coach for many years. He went to a P5 ACC, he coached at a D2 in Florida and now at a mid D1 in Florida.

I have NEVER in all these years, even when he was in pro ball seen any team or coach not make a concerted effort to win.

And in all the years that I have been here I have never heard ANYONE call any program or coach garbage, or scum.

Monkeys in a uniform filling out a lineup card, come on man.

If you have had a bad experience, I am sorry, there are folks here who have had bad experiences, but no reason to be insulting because not every parent here has a D1 player.

JMO

@TPM posted:

@Fenway

I believe, I may be wrong, but I thought his comment was directed to xfactor.

I have been here a long time but my knowledge of D3 is not as it should be. Often I ask new webster's to contact Fenway, if they are looking for HA, D3 info.

There are good and not so good programs in all divisions. There also are probably good and not so good coaches as well.

Son has been a player and a coach for many years. He went to a P5 ACC, he coached at a D2 in Florida and now at a mid D1 in Florida.

I have NEVER in all these years, even when he was in pro ball seen any team or coach not make a concerted effort to win.

And in all the years that I have been here I have never heard ANYONE call any program garbage.

Monkeys in a uniform filling out a lineup card, come on man.

If you have had a bad experience, I am sorry, there are folks here who have had bad experiences, but no reason to be insulting because not every parent here has a D1 player.

JMO

Thank you.

I will agree with TPM.  There is a place for most players.  I won't say all but most.  Some of our kids have been fortunate enough to play at the top levels, some at middle levels, and some at lower levels.  To play in college puts you in a small % of kids overall playing HS baseball.  Anyone who wants to continue the journey in college should go for it.  Some are not great leagues or teams in comparison to the top but it is the same in HS.  Some HS teams would beat college teams but some D3 teams would beat P5 teams on any given night.  That is the fun of this game.  A good and even ok pitcher on a great night can beat a great team almost by himself with a little luck.  That happens at all levels of ball.  Some of these teams some guys or their parents would say if that is all I can play then I am done.  Others want to live the dream as long as possible.  There are a lot of guys at P5 top 5 schools that will never get a chance to play past college and they can be contributors.  That is the dream and we live it until someone takes it away or we decide the road has come to an end.  Some times by our choice and some times by someone else's choice.  My oldest decided the road was taking a different turn after HS rather than walking on he chose to go into coaching and has been very successful.  My middle son turned down P5 opportunities to go to a mid-major where he was loved and is now coaching college.  My youngest is living his dream at a P5 top 5 school this year in a place he or I ever dreamed he would be.  When he committed they were 14th or 14 in the SEC.  Neither of us, when he committed to UT, thought he would be able to ever pitch to finish out a win against LSU, Florida, or Vandy but he got to do it all in his first full year of college baseball.  That is why we put so much into our kids living their dreams, no matter the level.

Monkeys in a uniform filling out a lineup card

I know of a NESCAC before they got serious about baseball the football coach was also the baseball coach.

A good and even ok pitcher on a great night can beat a great team almost by himself with a little luck.  good and even ok pitcher on a great night can beat a great team almost by himself with a little luck.

Several years ago in the first round of a regional ... Bucknell 7 Florida State 0

Then depth took over. Two games later Florida State beat Bucknell by a football score and beat the point spread.

@RJM posted:

Monkeys in a uniform filling out a lineup card

I forgot to mention he called some coaches scum.

I am not taking it personally it's just not what we do here. We don't call coaches, players or programs derogatory  or nasty names.

I don't care if a NESCAC football coach was the baseball coach. It has nothing to do with it. 

Done.

I know some recruits eliminate certain programs within conferences that they otherwise are a "fit"  because of their win-loss records. Some of his peers may say, "Why would you want to play THERE?" I say, why not be part of a recruiting class that gives a player an opportunity, and he can be part of a reversal of fortune for a program? Son saw it happen first-hand, which can really change culture. (I'm sure the Manager, however may partly credit the turnaround, due to his new rule he started son's freshman year- players cannot play and be a member of a frat. )

Go to some games and see for yourself. When mine was a freshman, he played on a 17u team. There was a local D2 at a lot of our games following a few teammates. Stopped by one of their games and it was good baseball. But when D1s started calling and we started going to more and more D1 games it became pretty obvious that the D2 was a clear step down.

In my opinion IMG and other top HS programs like Lake Travis, Calvary Christian would walk thru the D3 national championship every year. Now these schools also have a starting lineup full of P5, D1s and draft picks on their team so it's hard to compare.

A bottom 100 D1 coach helped out with our travel team this summer. He came from a top 10 juco prior to this job. He said if they played a series their Friday starter would keep them in the game, but after that the juco would murder his current team for the rest of the weekend