Crossfit and pitchers

CrossFit for any reason is stupid.

       
       
Congrats on the 88 by the way.  2018...   wow.  Big future there.  I am just praying for 80anything in two years for my 2020!

Yes and I really do. It want a HS coach trying out something his buddy does after work



> On Aug 1, 2015, at 9:46 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Bulldog,

Please explain. I know you have some relevant credentials. I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Everything I've read (or heard from my son's PT) about crossfit suggests this is the right answer.

There is no need for a CrossFit-type mentality in baseball. CrossFit is all about "being the fittest" and quite frankly doing a lot of stupid stuff. CrossFit would destroy a baseball player quickly.

 

Here's just one example of CrossFit insanity...

https://www.t-nation.com/power...VbqMY_uAaVE.facebook

 

 

--Edited to add--

There are a lot of medical personnel who are involved in CrossFit. PTs and Chiropractors seem to eat this up.. The conspiracist in me says they love CrossFit because it makes an excellent referral source for them! lol  

 

I've seen way too many injuries from it.  A 40 year old friend of ours was hospitalized twice from Rhabdo and the second time she was in really bad shape.  After getting out of the hospital she couldn't do anything for weeks and was constantly having her heart and kidneys, IIRC, monitored.  There are three CF gyms in our area and one of them is way too focused on the training for competition aspect and people are constantly getting injured.  Shoulder injury after shoulder injury.  There is no way that I would let a baseball player in one of those places.  I was told one of our high school volleyball coaches is big into it took her whole team to a workout and is pushing them to go join.  That may be the new trend.     

To me, a serious problem with CF is that they are random daily workouts.  There is no real progression and it does not take into account an individual's needs.  You just show up and perform the WOD.  Sure, there is lots of good conditioning, and you likely will get stronger, but there is no rationale from workout to workout.

 

And then there are the injuries... 

Go to YouTube and search under crossfit fails.
If you want to increase your chance of getting injured cross fit is the way to go. ;0)

Son works with a guy who uses some of the training philosophy. Its crazy and yes daily random stuff. Son could never do any of it as a pitcher.  It works the entire body and not sport specific. He actually loves every minute of it.

I just love it (not) when a coach suddenly thinks he is qualified to train young athletes. 

 

Isn't that why they have athletic trainers that specialize in conditioning and not coaching?

I would have to see the program to make a matter of fact statement. Cross fit like most things in this country was a good idea that is destroyed by those implementing it. Every new camp has to take it up a notch to sell their product and completely distorted the original idea. Yes crossfit can be good for baseball players especially young ones. Now keep in mind my opinion on that is based on my opinion that young athletes need to build a solid foundation before sport specific training. Now with that said most crossfit programs are too general so they can be sold to a larger audience and aren't designed to the specific athlete. I don't like any training that's not designed to the specific athlete. Also of the hundreds of HS coaches I know not one of them could design a crossfit workout for teenagers. So they will most likely use one they bought or saw somewhere or just throw together a bunch of random crap. A good crossfit program isn't random at all.

To answer your specific question I would be worried if my sons HS coaches were experimenting with a crossfit program. However unless they are doing some really stupid things (which is highly possible) it may not be of great benefit to a pitcher but shouldn't be of harm either and being in better shape is benificial to all athletes. Just watch out for injurious exercises to the shoulder.

As for the throwing program I would be more worried about this. That program which was developed by IMO really good coaches is designed for college ball players not HS sophomores. But I do not know enough about arm training yet to give a definate opinion on that. Maybe Kyle will see this and chime in. He has far more knowledge and experience training teenage arms than I.

I'll also add if I had a sophmore throwing 88 not only would I not do anything at all with him I would have all my other pitcher doing what ever he's doing hahaha.

Nice post Scotty. Definetly need kyles input here.

as far as 2018 .... we have not done anything special..we received a pitcher specific workout from a minor league guy and have been doing that and limiting innings.  He has a gifted arm really, and I dont want to mess it up

 

My older two were concerned that HS tend to adopt a one size fits all, and the older sons mentioned that in college it was specific pitcher workouts tailored to the individual.

 

with all negative responses to CF , I wonder how to approach the HS coach

CF has done more for Olympic weightlifting than USA WL has. They have put barbells in the hands of thousands of people, and this is a very good thing. Like many things, it spiraled mostly out of control and that's how you have athletes suffering rotator cuff tears doing snatches to failure, which isn't useful in any sense of the word.

 

That doesn't mean CrossFit is terrible overall. There are a lot of bad things about it, but circuit-based barbell training is good for the general population and better than the selectorized silly machines in the gym that dominate 24 Hour Fitness.

 

For baseball players, it's not the best look. I would hope a team's training staff would be better suited to evaluate a weightlifting program than blindly subscribe to CrossFit. That's all I'll say about that.

 

As far as Vandy's throwing program goes, what is "Vandy's throwing program?" Most people who say they do it have no idea what it is, or found some random program online that says it's Vanderbilt's throwing program. Having been fairly involved in helping to build Vanderbilt's throwing program myself, I don't think any resource online or second-hand knowledge adequately captures the depth of what Coach Scott Brown does for his pitchers.

 

 

Originally Posted by bacdorslider:

…My older two were concerned that HS tend to adopt a one size fits all, and the older sons mentioned that in college it was specific pitcher workouts tailored to the individual….

 

I’m sure there are some HS programs that do workouts tailored to the individual, but I’m also sure that most do adopt the one size fits all mentality. In defense of those that do adopt one size fits all as the general philosophy, I’m guessing they don’t have the resources to do it any other way. The only school I know of around here who doesn’t do it that way is a private, all boy’s school that runs close to $20,000 a year and has an entire department set up to work with all of the students as individuals, not just the athletes.

 

CrossFit HQ is what is wrong with CrossFit. The guy who founded the company is a lunatic. Cross him and you will face a lawsuit. The "CrossFit Community" is what keeps CrossFit alive, not the headquarters.

 

Olympic Lifting and circuit training DO NOT go together. That's what CrossFit has done. Big mistake. 

I agree with Kyle that Cross Fit has done an order of magnitude more good in the fitness world than bad due to some of the injuries that are not cropping up. (in a lot of older folks BTW...but that is another story) Like anything it has to be thought out and applied properly. 

 

As far as a HS team doing "Crossfit" type of workouts for his team, again more good will likely come out of it than bad IMO. A HS couch is trying to get his kids lifting to get bigger stronger faster and more athletic, a crossfit style of program will achieve this probably better than a football style approach, which I have seen a lot of over the years. The key will be whether he can educate his players in proper technique. Cleans (front squats) and deadlifts should be the foundation for a lifting program to build on. Jerks are good for position players, probably not so much for pitchers, and snatches are very technical and this is where injuries can happen, without proper training.

 

Like anything the devil is in the details and if it was my son I would like to look over the program and tailor it toward a pitcher just to make sure he is not getting too much overhead work. If the HS couch has any brains he probably is going to do this already for his pitchers, and if not I am sure some input regarding what is appropriate would be accepted.

 

As far as the throwing program, again I would just want to look it over. Same thing though, if not overdone, probably more good than bad will come out of it. 

 

Good Luck!

 

 

My biggest concern with a Crossfit workout is working to exhaustion.  The times I have gone it was several exercises to the point of failure.  The big problem here is putting stress on the shoulder complex and bad technique.  A kid that doesn't have much lifting experience should really have some attention paid to his technique before moving into a big, heavy lifting program.  

They are not doing Vandys throwing program either.  There is a lot to what they do there.

Plyo care throws, weighted balls, long toss, command training, mental prep, tons of recovery work, mobility work ect.  I would be surprised if a high school throwing program consisted of more than some band work, long toss and pens.  

Maintaining flexibility is most important for pitchers not how many chin-ups they can do with a 4x4 tire strung around their waist.  The Vandy throwing program has credibility for pitchers.  Crossfit not so much.  So, I'd like to hear from others before venturing into the pitching / cross fit camp.  

 

How many MLB or MiLB pitcher are raving about their crossfit program?  Anyone?  Bueller?.   

I think for a foundation for teenagers, one cannot go wrong with the Bigger-Faster-Stronger program: it's got all the basic lifts, it incorporates plyometric and speed/agility training, as well as mobility work.  Add in some med-ball stuff and I think it is a really solid program for a young ballplayer to start.  I think it is a much better option than CF for baseball players.

you have a son throwing 88 MPH and has yet to enter 10th grade...as long as you are polite and respectful you can tell him any damn thing you please! OK I am stretching that a bit but he is your son, if he is your 3rd child in the program I assume, would be shocked if the coach doesn't already know you or at least know of you. Be polite but do what you think is right not what some HS teacher who doubles as a coach decides his entire team should do.

the guys who trains my sons is a pro but also a baseball guy, he does baseball specific training - his advice is baseball is played from the bottom up and the back forward, workout the same, 2 days for legs, core and back for every one day of upper body and front. it is a simple thing but it really seems to be good plan.

this seems like a good approach... I am waiting to see what happens... the baseball team starts fall workouts next week.  I will say that HC asked 2018 how he was feeling and he said I feel fine, fatigued... I need 3 weeks off... and the HC coach said no problem...

 

I know they are doing the Vandy throwing program... and I will rely on 2016 to explain the specifics... if the boys come home and say the coaches are starting CF then I will go talk to him.. yes I do know him, but I don't want to come off as the parent that can dictate to the coaches what they are going to do. 

 

So if CF is endorsed I will respectfully tell them we are not doing that. As far as the Vandy program... I will wait and see, it might just be great for them.... 

 

thanks for the heads up on CF... I'm too old to keep up with all the latest and greatest.

+1 for Bulldog 19! Crossfit is not a training modality for anything but Crossfit. By itself it's adaptable to fight-sports and other activities demanding use of mixed energy systems over a short bu extending period of time.  But not baseball. Especially not pitching.

 

A ground based-lifting program with linear progression and some mix of training and plyometric work should be fine for any older kid's training regimen.  As for the Vandy throwing program, they use several of the modalities in the Driveline program (along with Driveline products BTW). I swear by Driveline for my son.

my guess is that the coach thinks having the kids long toss 4 days a week is vanderbilts throwing program. in reality vanderbilts throwing program has lots of different parts and is individualized for every pitcher. good command low velo pitcher would not be on same program as kid who cames in throwing 95 with little control

Uh, just look at cross fit fails. I wouldn't do a lot of the things they do. Maybe when I was a teenager and thought I was invincible . That is why we have parents, to keep us from doing dumb s%#t. There are already a lot of exercises that are proven to beneficial to pitchers. Let someone else be "cutting edge" .

Exactly.  

First question I ask any pitcher that starts going on about lifting is "Are you deadlifting?"

Have also talked to many kids/parents who equate a good core workout with having a six pack. I talk about rotation and they talk about getting ripped.  Getting ripped usually means being thin.  

So what would a good fall/winter workout for a pitcher be ?



> On Aug 4, 2015, at 10:18 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Im sure you will get a lot of feed back from different folks to this question.  

In my humble opinion a lot depends on the kid and how experienced he is working out.  

If he is a pitcher then throwing is the most important element of an offseason program.  Any good throwing program is based in arm care first.  

In terms of lifting deadlift, lunges, single leg work, rotational core work (pallof press, med ball scoops, russian twist), back lifts, ham/glute raises, squats, and a host of upper body work is great.  I typically like working the back side of the upper body (tricep in comparison to bicep lets say) at a 2 to 1 ratio.  Lats, pull ups, scap pushups ect.  Lots of good work can be done with the upper body. 

Sprints and heavy bag I like for cardio work.  No distance running.