What do you do today’s environment in terms of recruiting with a HA kid who is also a high performer (let’s say not on anyone’s radar in terms of being recruited top D1 schools, but still pretty good)? @Francis7 made me think about this 😁.
Do they go JUCO and live their dream and possibly transfer until it ends? Or do you just say that their intelligence will make tons more $$ and go strictly HA? Do they still have a chance at HA to get to the big league through development in a HA school?
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If a kid isn’t a pro prospect he should be looking for the best possible combination of baseball and academic experience regardless of level.
If it’s mid major D1 he’s likely to be noticed regardless. Mid majors often play majors and scouts will be at the games. If we’re talking D3 it should be a ranked program with a coach connected to the top summer leagues.
For example, the coach of D3 Babson has been a coach in the Cape League. Aside from being connected to the Cape he probably knows pro scouts which can get a player connected to another league like the NECBL.
I agree with RJM. If you're talented there will be opportunities and I would also add you can't showcase from the dugout so choose well. My son's NE HA D3 have put players in the better summer leagues and have recent alum who are in different levels of the minors as position players.
I think I understand your question in theory. Yes, @Francis7 is known for some theoretical situations. From my perspective this is more about the recruiting time line. It starts with D1 P5 schools looking at elite baseball talent and works it way down to D1 Mid-Majors and then the rest. If your kid is an HA kid, it really isn't going to matter much until you get down to the D1 Mid-Major level (and below) where a handful of schools and conferences that are truly considering academic performance and rigor to go along with athletic capabilities.
The second part of your question I'm not sure how to answer. I think you'll find that most HA kids will not be doing a lot of transferring for college baseball. They make their decision on the school and the academic program. My son told me point blank that if baseball didn't work out or he didn't get enough playing time that he'd cut bait because his study time had value. I think you'll find a lot of that with HA kids.
As @RJM points out it is very likely for an HA kid to get noticed based on their D1 schedule and college summer baseball exposure. He'd want to be going to the Cape, Northwoods, or other top tier summer college league. There are a handful of poster's sons who have done that, and were drafted. Possibly they can chime in. The baseball cube is a great resource to track drafted players by specific schools. For example, Harvard and Princeton had 2 draft picks each in 2023. https://www.thebaseballcube.com/
@TexasLefty posted:What do you do today’s environment in terms of recruiting with a HA kid who is also a high performer (let’s say not on anyone’s radar in terms of being recruited top D1 schools, but still pretty good)? @Francis7 made me think about this 😁.
Do they go JUCO and live their dream and possibly transfer until it ends? Or do you just say that their intelligence will make tons more $$ and go strictly HA? Do they still have a chance at HA to get to the big league through development in a HA school?
This was the exact situation for a kid on my son's summer team. He had 2 Ivy offers. He decided to go to to a top 10 Juco instead.
Agree with the above; some HA D3 coaches do have connections with summer leagues, and, more to the point, encourage their players to play in them. Some players at HA schools are mostly focused on their academics, and some are more focused on baseball. It's possible, now, to transfer from a D3 to a D1 without sitting out. So I would argue that going to a D3 is the better choice in some ways, because that way if you don't move "up" in baseball, you're still at a great school.
The main argument for juco instead of HA D3 would be for the baseball training. The facilities, coaching, etc. are not the same at a HA D3s as at many D1s or jucos. So the possibilities for development are not the same, and more of it is on the player, which is, frankly, hard. What I would want to know about a juco is, what happens to all their players who don't go on to power D1 programs? What would be your choices then, with or without baseball?
I'd say that it is pretty difficult, although not impossible, to be drafted from a HA D3 school. There were six players drafted from D3s last year and not all of those were HA schools.
https://www.d3baseball.com/not...fted#google_vignette
There were 14 drafted from DII programs:
https://www.ncaa.com/news/base...ected-2023-mlb-draft
There were 44 from JUCOs and about 123 (I think) drafted out of high school:
https://www.mlb.com/news/facts...(Round%2013%2C%20No.
There are 600 spots, so that leaves 413 drafted out of D1 College programs.
As for the summer, even good D1 players often have a hard time getting into great summer leagues, especially since the recruiting for those teams starts even before the spring season. Some Cape players are committed from mid-August of the summer before.
I think if your player wants to go the HA route and be drafted, he might prefer a D1 school where he gets to play a lot-- the school doesn't have to be a D1 powerhouse school so long as he gets to play. Even the Ivy League competes down south in the spring, so there is always a chance to be followed from a good outing against a great baseball school during the preseason.
Also, what about the student part of the student-athlete equation? Your player could be the absolute best student at his JUCO and get lots of transfer opportunities. But sometimes those credits won't articulate directly into a HA four-year program, and it may take the student another year to complete at a four-year after his JUCO degree, making him responsible for five years of college tuition. These decisions are very individual and hypotheticals often can't answer the question out of context.
@TexasLefty posted:What do you do today’s environment in terms of recruiting with a HA kid who is also a high performer (let’s say not on anyone’s radar in terms of being recruited top D1 schools, but still pretty good)? @Francis7 made me think about this 😁.
Do they go JUCO and live their dream and possibly transfer until it ends? Or do you just say that their intelligence will make tons more $$ and go strictly HA? Do they still have a chance at HA to get to the big league through development in a HA school?
It's not either/or IMO.
There are lots of great HA schools with solid baseball programs, at all levels of D1: Vandy, Duke, Wake, ND, Clemson, UVA, Cal, Stanford, USC, UCLA, UCI, UCSD, UCSB, Texas, Ivy League, Rice, Northwestern, BC, VA Tech, GT, Davidson. I'm sure I'm missing some.
I might as well toss the grenade in the room. If you’re an HA you don’t want to go JuCo unless you’re a top prospect planning to sign in one or two years. Anyone that much of an academic student is likely to stay in college for at least three years to get within a year of graduation before signing.
The kick back I will get is JuCos teach the same subjects as HAs. But it’s not with the same academic rigor and competition.
A person can kick down the doors. But Wall Street, top med schools, law schools and MBA programs hire/accept from the top colleges first.
You can go to a juco, not advance your baseball career and still end up at a perfectly fine four year school.
There is a stigma with jucos that really needs to go away. Just because the high school burnout did a semester at a juco doesn't mean the path is bad if you put your head down and do the work.
Math is math at both schools. The numbers still mean the same thing.
@PABaseball posted:You can go to a juco, not advance your baseball career and still end up at a perfectly fine four year school.
There is a stigma with jucos that really needs to go away. Just because the high school burnout did a semester at a juco doesn't mean the path is bad if you put your head down and do the work.
Math is math at both schools. The numbers still mean the same thing.
Sure it's possible. I know lots of kids (not baseball players) that did that. But I think for a lot of kids that can go HA or are borderline HA this can be a difficult route. I think "you are who you surround yourself with" is somewhat true and being in an atmosphere where you're being pushed by your peers is valuable.
Not sure math (or any of the math and sciences) is the same at a JUCO and a 4 year. I'm sure it depends, but I know there are many instances of AP courses is HS not being as rigorous as their equivalent in college. I think it's similar.
I think that is less about rigor and more about transfer equivalency of credits. For example, suppose you wanted to transfer to Rice from a community college. You took your Social Science Gen Ed via an online Anthropology 101 class so you could travel for Spring baseball. It was a great class; you learned a lot and earned an "A." You also took chemistry lab as a freshman in case you wanted to do engineering and earned an "A"; you are now a business major but your chemistry class fulfills your Lab Science Gen Ed. All is well.
You graduate from community college with an A.S. in Business Administration after two years and enroll at Rice, where the coach loves you, with the intent of earning your B.S. in Business while playing two more years of great baseball.
Rice's transfer page states:
Note: The BioSciences, Business, Chemistry, Economics, English, History, and Physics departments conduct a thorough review of course material to consider granting Rice equivalent course credit to coursework completed at community colleges or two-year institutions. Chemistry requires that courses are taken at a 4-year college or university that offers a degree in Chemistry certified by the American Chemical Society. Additionally, Anthropology, Civil Engineering, ClassicalStudies, Economics, English, History, Philosophy, Physics, and Sociology may not grant Rice equivalent credit for coursework completed online.
So even though you earned an "A" in Anthro 101, Rice denies the transfer. Chemistry lab? No go. You have to RETAKE chemistry at Rice. Now you are playing great baseball but academically you are no longer a Junior but a Sophomore. Your graduation is delayed by a semester. You pay Rice another $$ for a fifth semester.
This transfer problem happens all the time. Unless you are transferring from a public community college to a public state system university, you are NOT going to have a seamless transfer of credit--particularly if you are in STEM or moving from JuCo to a private university. Even if the math course is EXACTLY the same, the transfer of credit system may not be fair to the student.
@PABaseball posted:Math is math at both schools. The numbers still mean the same thing.
Nope, absolutely incorrect. The math rigor at top HA schools is much harder than your typical 4 year. Calc at MIT is much harder than calc at big state U. Same goes for physics, chemistry, engineering, etc.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Nope, absolutely incorrect. The math rigor at top HA schools is much harder than your typical 4 year. Calc at MIT is much harder than calc at big state U. Same goes for physics, chemistry, engineering, etc.
Yep. And there are some majors, like engineering, nursing, CS, that must be declared either spring freshman year or fall sophomore year because course specialization starts early.
So a Juco transfer into one of these majors is almost certainly going to have to spend an extra year in college. Unless it’s a public-public transfer within the same state where the path is pre-defined.
I'm taking baseball out of it.
I know two young women who went to good 4 year school AFTER getting the "basic general universal crap credits" done at a Juco where it was geographically convenient and a HELLUVA lot cheaper at the Juco...and then the got their degree from the big name fancy impressive college.
When you get your Bachelors Degree Diploma, it just has the school name on it and the graduation year. There's NOT a line on the bottom that says, in parentheses "50% of the required credits were earned at Joe Blow Juco."
Why spend $240,000 on a four year degree when you can get the same EXACT piece of paper for $140,000 by starting at a Juco?
Depends on your aspirations, long-term career plans, etc. For some it matters, for some it doesn't.
@RHP_Parent posted:I'd say that it is pretty difficult, although not impossible, to be drafted from a HA D3 school. There were six players drafted from D3s last year and not all of those were HA schools.
https://www.d3baseball.com/not...fted#google_vignette
There were 14 drafted from DII programs:
https://www.ncaa.com/news/base...ected-2023-mlb-draft
There were 44 from JUCOs and about 123 (I think) drafted out of high school:
https://www.mlb.com/news/facts...(Round%2013%2C%20No.
There are 600 spots, so that leaves 413 drafted out of D1 College programs.
As for the summer, even good D1 players often have a hard time getting into great summer leagues, especially since the recruiting for those teams starts even before the spring season. Some Cape players are committed from mid-August of the summer before.
I think if your player wants to go the HA route and be drafted, he might prefer a D1 school where he gets to play a lot-- the school doesn't have to be a D1 powerhouse school so long as he gets to play. Even the Ivy League competes down south in the spring, so there is always a chance to be followed from a good outing against a great baseball school during the preseason.
Also, what about the student part of the student-athlete equation? Your player could be the absolute best student at his JUCO and get lots of transfer opportunities. But sometimes those credits won't articulate directly into a HA four-year program, and it may take the student another year to complete at a four-year after his JUCO degree, making him responsible for five years of college tuition. These decisions are very individual and hypotheticals often can't answer the question out of context.
Here is the draft by round
Power 5 Influence
JUCO Influence
@fenwaysouth posted:I think I understand your question in theory. Yes, @Francis7 is known for some theoretical situations. From my perspective this is more about the recruiting time line. It starts with D1 P5 schools looking at elite baseball talent and works it way down to D1 Mid-Majors and then the rest. If your kid is an HA kid, it really isn't going to matter much until you get down to the D1 Mid-Major level (and below) where a handful of schools and conferences that are truly considering academic performance and rigor to go along with athletic capabilities.
The second part of your question I'm not sure how to answer. I think you'll find that most HA kids will not be doing a lot of transferring for college baseball. They make their decision on the school and the academic program. My son told me point blank that if baseball didn't work out or he didn't get enough playing time that he'd cut bait because his study time had value. I think you'll find a lot of that with HA kids.
As @RJM points out it is very likely for an HA kid to get noticed based on their D1 schedule and college summer baseball exposure. He'd want to be going to the Cape, Northwoods, or other top tier summer college league. There are a handful of poster's sons who have done that, and were drafted. Possibly they can chime in. The baseball cube is a great resource to track drafted players by specific schools. For example, Harvard and Princeton had 2 draft picks each in 2023. https://www.thebaseballcube.com/
Harvard MLB Draftees
Harvard 2024 Player attrition, show the 2 players drafted and signed. Also shows players from 2023 roster that have transferred to another 4 yr school
@anotherparent posted:Depends on your aspirations, long-term career plans, etc. For some it matters, for some it doesn't.
And sadly, for some they just can't afford it. It hurts to get contacted by a coach, do some research, see COA is 90k+ a year, and family makes just enough to not qualify for aid. Thinking merit money would be hard to get because, player would need baseball to get in. Or so I have heard.
@TxballDad posted:And sadly, for some they just can't afford it. It hurts to get contacted by a coach, do some research, see COA is 90k+ a year, and family makes just enough to not qualify for aid. Thinking merit money would be hard to get because, player would need baseball to get in. Or so I have heard.
Merit money at top HA schools is almost impossible. Every kid there is just as qualified, if not more. Most are generous with need-based aid….. if you qualify
@Francis7 posted:I'm taking baseball out of it.
I know two young women who went to good 4 year school AFTER getting the "basic general universal crap credits" done at a Juco where it was geographically convenient and a HELLUVA lot cheaper at the Juco...and then the got their degree from the big name fancy impressive college.
When you get your Bachelors Degree Diploma, it just has the school name on it and the graduation year. There's NOT a line on the bottom that says, in parentheses "50% of the required credits were earned at Joe Blow Juco."
Why spend $240,000 on a four year degree when you can get the same EXACT piece of paper for $140,000 by starting at a Juco?
All HA schools are not equal. Your idea of HA might be (and most likely is) much different than what someone else thinks. As someone here put it, there are “HA”, then there are “elite HA”. The schools I consider HA don’t take juco credits. Most won’t take credits from a big state U.
As SpeedDemon mentioned, the freshman core classes at most top HA are extremely intense and a kid transferring in would likely struggle or require an extra year.
@Francis7 posted:I'm taking baseball out of it.
I know two young women who went to good 4 year school AFTER getting the "basic general universal crap credits" done at a Juco where it was geographically convenient and a HELLUVA lot cheaper at the Juco...and then the got their degree from the big name fancy impressive college.
When you get your Bachelors Degree Diploma, it just has the school name on it and the graduation year. There's NOT a line on the bottom that says, in parentheses "50% of the required credits were earned at Joe Blow Juco."
Why spend $240,000 on a four year degree when you can get the same EXACT piece of paper for $140,000 by starting at a Juco?
Taking baseball (mostly) out of it, because that was how we approached it.....
Agree with @anotherparent. It depends what your looking for, your very specific situation, and the offers that are presented to you. You are only as good as the offers you receive.
Financially, the two Ivy offers & FA my son considered were equal to a 50% athletic scholarship to two private D1 mid-majors. Yes, I crunched those numbers until they screamed. We were fortunate to qualify for Ivy FA and he received a yearly grant to one of them.
Most importantly, it was about the best engineering program (mechanical and materials science) that he could get into. At the time, materials science programs were few and far between. This program combined two areas he was most interested in, and he had an opportunity to play a D1 schedule that gave him the study time to major in engineering.
Lastly, it was his money. He invested in his future the way he wanted to. He knew what he wanted to do, and is currently finishing his master in engineering and his company paid for it. By the time we were done with college baseball recruiting, we knew every nook and cranny. With all the NCAA changes going on today, we would have taken the same approach a decade later. It worked for him.
Just my experience.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:All HA schools are not equal. Your idea of HA might be (and most likely is) much different than what someone else thinks. As someone here put it, there are “HA”, then there are “elite HA”. The schools I consider HA don’t take juco credits. Most won’t take credits from a big state U.
As SpeedDemon mentioned, the freshman core classes at most top HA are extremely intense and a kid transferring in would likely struggle or require an extra year.
The recent Congressional hearings have certainly shown that all HA schools are not equal. Maybe we need a new category for some schools that have historically been viewed as HA. I won’t go any further with that.
But regarding transfer of JuCo credits, all JuCos are not equal either. A couple of years ago I convinced a local HA LHP that going to a very good Texas JuCo (McLennan CC) would not prevent him from attending a HA 4 year school. His family was skeptical but finally gave in. As a freshman the kid was All-Conference on the mound and an academic All-American in the classroom. He is now a sophomore and just accepted a baseball/academic scholarship to Rice University. And there was no issue with credits transferring. So it can be done.
@Collegebaseballinsights
Just FYI: Those transfers are all for grad school because these kids have extra COVID eligibility. They don't reflect graduation rates.
I’d recommend Tufts/Middlebury/JHU for a high academic kid that could play D1 level but wants an academic experience that sets them for life with rigor, strong network, grad school feeder, etc.
Re: the Congressional hearings
MIT, Harvard and Penn didn’t stop being academically elite because their presidents made fools out of themselves. I doubt the president of MIT is antisemitic. She’s Jewish. These presidents were poorly coached by a law firm how to stay out of court based on their comments.
Antisemitism is not new. Because I lived in “Jewville” in high school, my father drove an Cadillac and missed schools on three holidays (schools didn’t observe them then) it was obvious I was Jewish. You would never know by looking at me. The Scandinavian genes on my father’s side somehow won out. In high school coaches called me “Kike.” All I could do is take it from coaches. A football coach beat me up in practice. He told me to my face he didn’t like Jews. That was fifty years ago.
The antisemitic protests on college campuses did not occur organically. The Muslim Brotherhood/CAIR has been prepared for this moment (October 7) for years.
I was an undergrad in the mid to late Seventies. The political activity on campus wasn’t much different than now. I was very politically different than what was expressed in protests. It had no bearing on the college I chose. The decision was all academics and baseball.
Most college campuses are left leaning. I had mostly left leaning professors and TA’s almost fifty years ago. The only thing that changed on campuses like MIT, Harvard and Penn is asking, “Am I safe?” I have cousins with kids currently in grad school. While they’re very aware of their surroundings at all times they haven’t been bothered.
If a baseball player got assaulted on campus I’m guessing the perpetrators would have thirty something teammates to answer to.
I’m chuckling thinking back to an event in college where a future NFL edge rusher caught up to a group of “tough guys” in the cafeteria who had cornered one of his teammates. He challenged them all at the same time. They backed down.
i can have a sense of humor about being Jewish. I’m listed in two of the world’s smallest books … Jews who co-captained a high school football team and Jews who were co-captained multiple sports in high school. As the high school coach who hated Jews told me, “You’re not supposed to play football. You’re supposed to own the team.”
@RHP_Parent posted:@Collegebaseballinsights
Just FYI: Those transfers are all for grad school because these kids have extra COVID eligibility. They don't reflect graduation rates.
I know that. The purpose of the image is to show players that have left the team. It is a general category.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Nope, absolutely incorrect. The math rigor at top HA schools is much harder than your typical 4 year. Calc at MIT is much harder than calc at big state U. Same goes for physics, chemistry, engineering, etc.
95% of the time HA means hard to get into. HA means you're more likely to be surrounded by a more motivated student body, a more career oriented student. It usually means you have access to more decorated faculty with better facilities. HA does not necessarily mean you're getting a better education.
Numbers aren't different at Harvard and Chipola. I don't care how much harder it is perceived to be, formulas and equations don't change for HA schools. Physics is physics. The rigor of a course is going to be professor dependent. If you want to make a case that the are more strict and rigorous professors at what is considered an elite school - fine. But physics do not change for anybody. Saying physics is harder for HA student than Juco student is really narrow minded. Odds are very strong they use the same exact textbook. You take a student who is struggling in Stats at a HA school, he doesn't magically understand the concept at a juco.
English Comp 1 is English Comp 1 at both schools. It's not like they're writing best selling novels at the elite school and reading Dr. Suess at the two year.
If a decorated Calc professor leaves UPenn and goes to Temple, does Temple now become a HA school or does the professor have to dumb it down for the Temple kids?
@PABaseball posted:95% of the time HA means hard to get into. HA means you're more likely to be surrounded by a more motivated student body, a more career oriented student. It usually means you have access to more decorated faculty with better facilities. HA does not necessarily mean you're getting a better education.
Numbers aren't different at Harvard and Chipola. I don't care how much harder it is perceived to be, formulas and equations don't change for HA schools. Physics is physics. The rigor of a course is going to be professor dependent. If you want to make a case that the are more strict and rigorous professors at what is considered an elite school - fine. But physics do not change for anybody. Saying physics is harder for HA student than Juco student is really narrow minded. Odds are very strong they use the same exact textbook. You take a student who is struggling in Stats at a HA school, he doesn't magically understand the concept at a juco.
English Comp 1 is English Comp 1 at both schools. It's not like they're writing best selling novels at the elite school and reading Dr. Suess at the two year.
If a decorated Calc professor leaves UPenn and goes to Temple, does Temple now become a HA school or does the professor have to dumb it down for the Temple kids?
I’m not going to continue to debate you on this. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
I guess we have this argument every couple of years.
I never understand why you think it makes sense for baseball and not for academics. Would you say baseball is the same at LSU as it is at, say, Villanova? After all, it's the same game, isn't it?
Because it's NOT the same: (a) the selection process means that the players are at a higher level going in, (b) the players are starting from a higher level, and then are pushed to achieve more, (c) there is more money available, thus better training, facilities, support, etc., and (d) they are playing with and against better players, overall, which pushes them to be better.
THAT's why baseball players push to go to the highest level they can, because with all those advantages, they have a better shot at a higher-level future in baseball.
All these things apply to academics, too.
@PABaseball posted:95% of the time HA means hard to get into. HA means you're more likely to be surrounded by a more motivated student body, a more career oriented student. It usually means you have access to more decorated faculty with better facilities. HA does not necessarily mean you're getting a better education.
Numbers aren't different at Harvard and Chipola. I don't care how much harder it is perceived to be, formulas and equations don't change for HA schools. Physics is physics. The rigor of a course is going to be professor dependent. If you want to make a case that the are more strict and rigorous professors at what is considered an elite school - fine. But physics do not change for anybody. Saying physics is harder for HA student than Juco student is really narrow minded. Odds are very strong they use the same exact textbook. You take a student who is struggling in Stats at a HA school, he doesn't magically understand the concept at a juco.
English Comp 1 is English Comp 1 at both schools. It's not like they're writing best selling novels at the elite school and reading Dr. Suess at the two year.
If a decorated Calc professor leaves UPenn and goes to Temple, does Temple now become a HA school or does the professor have to dumb it down for the Temple kids?
There are exceptions to every rule....But to put this in baseball terms Tim Lincecum was 5'11" 170lbs so while you don't *need* to be a large human to be a MLB baseball pitcher, you are way more likely to go further as a large human.
Putting aside labs, research, facilities, etc, you'll still have a difference in the quality of the faculty. Even if it's just compensation. You could probably argue that faculty that are more highly compensated are probably motivated todo a better job. Of course there are exceptions, and corner cases.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:I’m not going to continue to debate you on this. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
You haven't actually debated anything. You've just resorted to the tired argument of I'm up here, you're down there, you wouldn't understand.
Perfectly fine with me, I get it.
@nycdad posted:There are exceptions to every rule....But to put this in baseball terms Tim Lincecum was 5'11" 170lbs so while you don't *need* to be a large human to be a MLB baseball pitcher, you are way more likely to go further as a large human.
Putting aside labs, research, facilities, etc, you'll still have a difference in the quality of the faculty. Even if it's just compensation. You could probably argue that faculty that are more highly compensated are probably motivated todo a better job. Of course there are exceptions, and corner cases.
I think in the case of this argument, baseball parallels academics. It comes down to the coach….or the professor. The guys that are the highest paid (or have tenure) are not necessarily the best in their field. It often boils down to a personal connection. Does this coach/professor relate to your player/student in a way that accelerates their learning? That’s what you are looking for. IMO it’s just as likely to be a person that’s young in their career as a seasoned veteran.
IMO if your talent is realm of the draft, they will mostly find you (HS or College). I've said this before, my son pitched 12 innings with poor ERA numbers an entire season at a low profile juco and the Padres still called. That was after the 20th round, which no longer exists, but the point is he was on the radar. As @RJM says, any D1 has the visibility if your son projects for pro ball.
I've got two kids, one plays baseball for a living (he's gifted, put in the work and never gave up, but there's a whole bunch that needed to happed that was out of his control) and one is a senior software engineer (he's also gifted, put in the work and never gave up, but he's been in total control of his career). Both have net worths that far exceed mine (not that's a measure of success, but having those kind of options can make life much easier).
I'm not saying don't dream, it does happen for some, but unless you're the 0.001% that explodes out of nowhere late, you'll know your kid's chances to play baseball for a living pretty early in college (which D1 school shouldn't really matter). However, if your kid goes to the right college for their HA strength, they have the key to 30-40 years of success and still get the visibility for the brass baseball ring (seems like the better choice from my perspective).
A quick note on JuCo's: Juco is a great option for many situations, I still believe it's about the purest form of the sport I've had the pleasure to watch. It's a grind, it's like 2 years of bootcamp and if you don't embrace the suck and love the game you won't survive. Done right you can get half your college education done with zero debt (no small advantage). It's great solution for late academic and/or physical bloomers to catch up. It's a great option for a HS late round (or almost) draft picks to improve their draft or college stock. However, if you've got the academic and baseball chops to attend Stanford (or like school) I think that should win out 99% of the time...
A late add on edit: My son turned down the Padres late round offer out of juco because getting to the MLB out of the late rounds is a long shot on top of a long shot. He progressed and was drafted in 3rd round out of a P5 D1 which was the right choice for him.
@TexasLefty posted:What do you do today’s environment in terms of recruiting with a HA kid who is also a high performer (let’s say not on anyone’s radar in terms of being recruited top D1 schools, but still pretty good)? @Francis7 made me think about this 😁.
Do they go JUCO and live their dream and possibly transfer until it ends? Or do you just say that their intelligence will make tons more $$ and go strictly HA? Do they still have a chance at HA to get to the big league through development in a HA school?
Encourage your kid to follow their dreams. My kid is unique and I am biased but my kid loves baseball more than he likes academics. His window to follow his dream of being the best player he can be has led him on a unique road. There are very smart kids and really dumb kids at all sorts of schools from Ivies to the local JUCO (I know A LOT of Ivy/HA kids, most are smart but a few are dumber than a box of rocks). It’s partially about teachers and also how interested your kid is in the subject matter…that goes for HS, college, and grad school.
My son thinks his current JUCO is more difficult academically than his D1 which last year was ranked in the top 200 schools in the country by WSJ and US News. It is not considered HA but has solid engineering and business schools. My son knows rigor from his HS experience and is academically gifted (33 ACT). I am ok with him “majoring” in baseball and minoring in school as long as he applies himself and gets mostly A’s and a few B’s.
Different strokes for different folks. Strive for excellence in all you do, follow your dreams and have as few regrets as possible. Good luck to you and all in this process.
Regarding HA colleges and careers: My parents grew up extremely poor; legally immigrated here; worked hard; and achieved the American dream of home ownership and financial independence. My brother went to a tippy top elite LAC; got a combined JD/MBA degree from a very high end public school then worked in starting up tech companies in CA. He will be the first to tell you that "the hinge" for him was the network: an alumnus from his LAC who preferentially hired him after law school. Would he have been successful in life without the above? Yes. But it may have been some completely different track.
Personally I went to a completely average state public college and med school (admittedly I did graduate in the top 10% of my class). Two of the very most credentialed people I worked with did the following: 1) Harvard undergrad/Harvard med school/Mass Gen residency 2) UPenn/Columbia Med/some other big name residency program. I wouldn't let them cut my sandwich let alone a family member. Seriously technically ungifted. Anecdotally, the best physicians I know are from not quite top tier but better than average undergrads and med schools.
But still, I've always been gung ho about my kids going to some big name college because I've always figured why not have every door available to them. And admittedly a little bit of inferiority complex with regards to my brother. Then COVID hits and I get to witness completely idiotic and tyrannical government, medical society, and college administrative decisions surrounding it. Now part of me is like no effing way I'm going to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for my kids to go to some of these schools. So now I'm torn between the possible value of the brand name credential vs feeling like a hypocrite for putting up with the lunacy of some of these institutions. (witness the current anti-semitism btw).
What are the truths in the discussion in this thread above?
1) You can become successful via any track you pursue. Whether you go JUCO to 4 year or whatever. It is a matter of how hard you work, pay attention to your goals, and kick open your opportunities when they arise.
2) Success is measured in different ways for different people. My brother is wildly more financially successful than I am, but I wouldn't trade my life for his.
3) It will be easier to become more accomplished academically if you surround yourself and compete with the best students. JUST. LIKE. BASEBALL. So while it is true a JUCO or other college may offer the same classes as say... Williams College..., you are more likely to have a higher quality education at the latter.
4) Having the right mentor or instructor who actively guides you over time is perhaps the most critical thing to success in baseball, academics, life.
5) Connections and networking matters. While I am currently prejudiced against some of these so called elite colleges, I'd have to have rocks in my head to not understand that a large number of people in positions of power went to these same schools and an old boys network exists for many jobs. It's also true that lesser stature schools have these same networks but they may be more regional.
Connections matter. So do internships. Internships build connections. Internships mean not playing summer ball or playing in a lesser league. My son’s coach wasn’t pleased when my son told him he needed to be placed on a summer team in Northern Jersey so he could intern in Manhattan. The internship led to a full time job with a Big 4 after graduation. Two of my daughter’s law internships led to “come work for us” interviews.
Re: Ivy League intelligence
I have a relative who scored 1600 on the SATs and graduated PBK. She couldn’t find her way out if a paper bag if pointed towards the daylight. It doesn’t mean most Ivy Leaguers are this way. Her two brothers (also Ivy) are nationally known in their fields.
My kid is looking at the local Juco to take some classes that can be transferred to his HA D3. Of course my wallet and I fully support that. Shockingly there were some classes that credits would be accepted. I was hoping he could take a class during winter break so he could take one less class in the Spring but he was informed he would be academically ineligible to play if he took only 3 classes in the Spring.
Thank you and I’m not cutting off this thread… I genuinely love the discussion. It’s almost like all the swirling thoughts that are in my head were brought to the table through experience or general knowledge from input from everyone. I don’t know what my son’s path will be but I’ll be sharing it here either way. He’s in love with baseball and I hope his dreams come true for him.
To paraphrase Russell Wilson’s dad, “Somebody’s going to get that job, why not you?”
Pragmatism is highly overrated when it comes to dreams, regrets are wasted time about wasted time and memories that last a lifetime without permanent physical or emotional damage are our most precious possessions.
I think most who regularly post here are like your son, we’re still “in love with baseball”.
Good luck to you and your son this upcoming season and the many beyond, and Merry Christmas!
