Curveball @ 9 yrs.

Savannah,
Good question and I appreciate your honesty. I can only tell you what I’ve read and what little I’ve picked up on. Growth plates, torque, and overuse are the key words here. Just throwing in an overhand motion puts stress on the elbow and shoulder. To properly develop there must be normal growth without destruction to the growth plates, tendons etc. Why is the curve ball so bad? Because, if it is not thrown "properly", it puts ADDITIONAL torque and stress on the elbow and shoulder. Combine these two and you have a recipe for damage and could face surgery at some point in his life. Cautiously, I might add that the experts do suggest that a "properly" thrown curveball doesn’t create any more stress than a fastball. So what do they consider proper, and what is bad? Here is an example. The motion that is used to turn a doorknob is bad. The correct motion is the motion used to "shake" your finger at someone but few young players can master this technique.
I suggest you follow conventional wisdom and postpone the CB for a few years. I also know your son, if he’s like my son and most other kids will NOT follow that same wisdom. At least teach him the proper way to throw a curveball. If you don’t feel comfortable with that chore, get a competent pitching instructor.
My son is supposed to have a good curveball so a newspaper in AL did an article on his curveball last year. My son was quoted as saying I taught him to throw it when he was 11 but I give the credit to Charlie Lea, a former MLB pitcher who coached him as a 14 yr old. While my son never had any arm problems, I have seen many young pitchers develop arm problems caused by overuse and throwing too many curveballs (improperly I assume). While these young players may NOT have had surgery, they did have to quit pitching at a young age. Would they have ever gone to the next level if they had been coached properly? We’ll never know!
cb info

cb info 2

Savannah,
Not knowing a tremendous amount about the advantages vs disadvantages of throwing one pitch vs another I would offer the following advice...call an Orthopedist that specializes in Sports Medicine...as to what the injury rate is among pitchers throwing cb...find out if throwing this type of pitch, at this age, would have the potential to cause further damage down the road as he ages...I do know that when my son was in LL he would catch and pitch...pediatrician went ballistic...made him chose one or the other...he felt that all that arm motion was destructive to the arm and shoulder as most coaches do not comprehend that for every pitch thrown it has to be thrown back and then all those other throws to the bases etc... even though he is now 19, and a sophomore in college, there are times when his elbow and shoulder do hurt...despite weight lifting and conditioning that he has done for a few years now...responds well to rest, ice and anti-inflammatories... but I would seriously consider finding out what the "pros" in this field feel....that would be those who deal with the end result ...the MD's

Bad idea, don't allow it. No kid should need or throw a curveball at that age. Glad to hear you are on top of this - but a deuce isn't necessary at that age. If anything, show him how to throw a change...that pitch is more important down the road anyway, and that one won't kill his arm long-term.

Even a properly thrown curveball is more stressful on the arm than a fastball. Anyone who tells you otherwise hasn't gone out and thrown curves in BP. I speak from experience.

And few kids will throw the curve properly. Most young kids will find out (accidentally or otherwise) that they can get a little extra movement on the curve by supinating the wrist. And there is a natural tendency to supinate when throwing the curve. So nearly all young kids end up supinating when they throw the curve. And that is very hard on the elbow. It can lead to separations or stress fractures in the growth plate.

The growth plates in the elbow do not become mature until after puberty. That is one reason why most knowledgeable people put off the curve until 13 or 14YO.

Also, if the curve works for the young pitcher he will have the tendency to use it more. And since the curve uses different mechanics than the fastball, this will - in all likelihood - hinder development of the fastball.

Finally, a good changeup is more devastating than a curve. It is harder to detect, as it has fastball (back) spin, rather than topspin. And since it is thrown with fastball mechanics, it doesn't hinder development.

Have him work on a good changeup. Forget the curve for another five years. This will be in his best interest.

Savannah,
Regardless of whether your son goes on to play at a higher level....
Bad idea. What's the point, to become the 9 year old who "gets 'em with the curveball"?

Lots of kids in our area threw curbeballs at young ages, It was the thing to do, to be better, win ,more games. They still may play ball, but no longer pitch.

Savannah:

Our summer/fall team of HS Juniors/Seniors don't allow their pitchers to throw more than 4-5 curves per GAME. We believe it hinders the development of a good fastball, since the mechanics are different and it hinders the development of an effective change-up, which is critical in college. Over the past 2 years, we've had 5 pitchers commit to D1 colleges and 1 to a JUCO, and the year isn't over for the current year's crop.

Location, Movement, Velocity.

Most curve-ball pitchers I've seen a younger age never develop the control and velocity. (not all - some turned out great), and mine learned it at the age of 12, but has been limited on how much he can throw it.

I read a report recently from the ASMI about this topic. In the report, they stated that their test suggested the Shoulder and elbow kenetics were similar with Fastballs and Curve balls. I believe that it even mentioned that a fastball had greater elbow and shoulder kenetics. It also said that based on the test, there is no proof that a curveball is more stressful than a fastball.

By the way, the report also suggested that a change up is the least stressful of all.

To me, throwing a curveball is the same as throwing a football, except the football is heavier!

Let me turn the question around.

Is there a good reason to throw a curve ball at age 9? I can't think of any.

Got to agree with Texan on this one. If you've thrown a lot of curves in BP you know it hurts. If you try to throw a lot of fastballs at full speed in BP it will end up hurting. I don't know which one actually puts more stress on the arm, but I do know that they put different stresses on the arm. If you do both you are going to have a higher risk of damage. Since no one is going to advocate throwing only curves, then you'll have the least amount of risk by throwing only fastballs and changeups. My 13yo still isn't throwing curve balls, he's mastered a palm ball reasonably well and the pitch he's working on now is the straight change. When he turns 14 we'll start developing the curve.

Justbaseball,
While I agree with you, I suggest you ask a 9yo pitcher if he wants to throw CB's. He will say yes . . . . So, how do you monitor the situation or do you go on trust? I remember my grandmother telling me the story about her teaching her five sons to swim. She took them all to the river and they all scared her by running up a tree and jumping into the water. Unbeknownst to her, they had been swimming in the river for years.
Fungo

Fungo - I know exactly what you mean. Our now college son was throwing it at age 9 (he was foolish enough to throw it to me in a warmup between innings).

But I pulled him aside and told him I didn't want him throwing it for a few years. Maybe he listened to me, probably not, but at least he wasn't out there in the rec. league throwing it 20-25 times an outing like I see so many kids doing.

I think a lot of young kids throw a curveball because its easier to get results from than a changeup early on. A changeup was much harder for him to learn...but once he did, he fell in love with it.

There was a very good article in Collegiate Baseball magazine in June I believe covering much of this topic. The article incorporated a lot of information on pitching and its impact beginning at age 8 and beyond. I know you can call Collegiate Baseball and order that issue for $3 I believe. For any parent of a young pitcher, I would recommend it and other similar articles as must reading.

fungo-
I think you have to monitor the situation...and explain to the young man WHY you don't want him to throw the deuce. Kids want to know the reasons or they'll be curious and find out on their own.

I think it's an easy question to ask a 9 year old- son, would you like to have an arm at 15?

Can you prove that a properly thrown curveball will hurt your arm? I don't think so.

I go back to my football comment. Do you tell your 9 year old son not to throw a football? What is the difference? Too me, throwing a football would be worse than throwing a curveball because the football weighs much more. Is almost like those people who say that they won't let their players throw weighted balls, yet they have no problem with them throwing a football.

If you twist the wrist/elbow then you will have problems(the elbow is not designed to twist). But I have never heard a pitching coach tell a pitcher to twist while throwing anything!

I am not saying a 9 year old should throw a curveball. In fact, I think they should master a change up first. I just don't like the reasons that most people give for not throwing a curveball at a young age. It just doesn't seem logical.

rocket - I think the more appropriate questions is can you prove it won't? Nearly all experienced people in this game recommend not to do it...including doctors. If its your son, why would you take the advised-against risk?

I know a young man who just had TJ surgery at age 16...on the brink of a fabulous HS career and a sure-thing college career. Doctor said his elbow had prior trauma. He threw a lot of curve balls from age 11 up. Did it cause the injury? Don't know...but most people think it contributed. Why take the chance?

I think that part of the problem is that most adults don't realize how hard it is for a kid that age to throw a changeup. A lot of 9-year olds have a three finger grip for their fastball, just because their hands and fingers aren't big enough to use a normal grip. And you can't put the ball back in the palm if it's already there.

So the Little League curve - straight over the top, no wrist twist at the end - becomes the easiest off-speed pitch to throw. And it works. And since it works, they keep throwing it. (It's like a drug.) Eventually, a kid who's good with the LL curve will be throwing it a lot - more than half the time. I don't know if there's a verifiable difference in arm stress between throwing curveballs and fastballs - conventional wisdom isn't always right, but I'm inclined to follow it until shown a reason not to - but I dont think it's a good idea to throw a lot of deuces that young for a lot of reasons - including the fact that it's an "easy" way to get a strike without having to learn to locate and change speeds.

Rocket,

Even a properly thrown curve ball is more stressful on the elbow than a fastball. I know this for a fact. I have thrown enough in hitting practice to have first hand experience.

Secondly, young pitchers have a tendency to supinate when throwing the curve. They do not tend to throw it correctly. And the supination does cause elbow problems.

You may not like the reasons given, but that doesn't change the facts. Whether or not it "seems" logical to you is really irrelevant.

Rocket you introduce a good point .

Nobody argues a binary situation with football throwing or fastball throwing. It's always moderation . Yet when it comes to the curve- it's "DON't do it" .
Ther's a breakdown in logic there.

Somebody asked ' why should a 9 year old throw a curve? "For the same reason you teach a basket ball player to shoot with his left . simply add to his arsenal.

There is absolutely no logical, mature reason for a nine year old to throw a curve ball or even mess around with one. The arguments (retards velocity improvement, potential for injury--now or in the future, etc.) have been made by all of the posters above. If a parent and/or coach says that he/she cannot prevent a kid from throwing curves, then he/she is not trying hard enough. A kid throws a curve in a game, take him out of the game. He won't do it again if he really wants to play.

All people who frequent this website would seem to be educated enough to disallow curve balls for kids at that age.

Someone mentioned that doctors say "don't throw curveballs", does this mean they are right? Do they even know how to throw a curveball? Probably not!

I hurt my elbow when I was about 12 years old, and the doctors said it was because I was throwing curveballs. I recovered from the injury, and didn't throw any curveballs for about 2 years. But, at age 14 I hurt it again. It was the same injury as before(the one that was "caused by throwing a curveball"). This time I went to former trainer in the Major Leagues. He helped me rehab for a couple of months, then he watched me throw. He found that I wasn't keeping my elbow above my shoulder as I pitched. This was the cause of my injury, not my curveball. Just think of how many injuries that are probably blamed on the curveball, yet are actually a result of bad throwing mechanics!

With that said, I haven't taught my 10u pitchers to throw a curveball yet. My reason for this has absolutely nothing to due with injury. I want them to learn how to pitch with just a fastball and change up before they move on to other pitches.


Another important aspect to consider is this, in the Dominican Republic there aren't any coaches to tell young players not to throw curveballs while they play ALL day. Just imagine how many curveballs they throw during a year's time. If the theory of curveballs causing injury was true, there wouldn't be any pitchers without arm injuries in that country. Yet, there arm many in MLB today. Can someone explain how it is dangerous for American kids to throw them, but not for kids from other countries?

Also, I once talked to a college pitching coach that said "if a pitcher doesn't come into college with a good curvball, then he isn't going to leave with one". To me, this implies that it gets harder and harder to master a curveball as you get older.

Texan,

How can your isolated experience be presented as fact? Maybe you aren't throwing it correctly either!

Can you explain why throwing a curveball is dangerous, but throwing a football is not?

Rocket said:
Also, I once talked to a college pitching coach that said "if a pitcher doesn't come into college with a good curvball, then he isn't going to leave with one". To me, this implies that it gets harder and harder to master a curveball as you get older.

**This logic is faulty. You are talking about improvements for a mature pitcher (assuming that H.S. seniors are remotely mature) over a 4 year span. This thread is talking about a deuce for a 9 year old CHILD! It doesn't take 9 YEARS to master a curveball! 9 year olds are simply too young, and they don't need it to be effective anyway. I have taught many pitchers a curveball in a year or 2...and they didn't start until their freshman year of High School...which gave them 2 years on varsity to use it.
Also, I didn't have a good deuce when I went to college...but I left with a 12-6 and a slider that helped me play pro baseball. It is all about the willingness to learn...and THAT is what disappears many times at the collegiate level...the WILLINGNESS to listen and be taught (too many players think they know everything already at that level!).

rocket,
Twas I who mentioned the MD's...your theory is wrong...when in HS I fell off a bus...literally....hurt my right ankle...spent months resting and alternating ice/heat and elevation...the swelling resolved...the pain went away and I was good to go....several years later I was coming downstairs and my ankle gave out...did not fall...did not twist..what caused the injury was the fact that now my ankle is weak...susceptable to anything...same when there is an arm injury...the initial cause may not be what causes further problems down the road...anything can exacerbate the underlining injury...why take the risk of leaving the arm vulnerable to further problems down the road...
Also, you bring up the fact that boys in other countries throw curveballs without injuries...have you met those who can no longer pitch as a result of throwing inappropriately...I did not wear a helmet when I rode a bike...does that make it right...I did not wear a seat belt when I learned to drive(actually there weren't any) but have we not learned from statistics...it's called progress...we learn from prior mistakes

I have no problem with anyone trying to convince a parent to not let a kid throw a curveball at an early age. In fact, my advice to the parent of the 9 year old would be to work on the fastball and change up for now. But, it has nothing to do with the "increased stress" of the curveball. I want my pitchers to learn how to "pitch" before they start dominating hitters with a curveball. Once they get good velocity, location, and movement on the fastball and change up, then they should start working on a good curveball. At least thats my opinion.

My suggestion would be to go to the ASMI website and read the article called Kinetic Comparison of Various Types of Pitcher. They don't say whether you should teach a nine year old a curveball ,or not. But it is a scientific experiment that suggests a curveball has been given a bad name for no reason.

catchermom03

Your theory/opinion is certainly a possiblity, but how can you say that my "theory" is wrong?

My injury wasn't something that happened on one pitch, it was something that was caused by hundreds of throws. Once it healed, it took hundreds of throws to happen again. These were throws made without curveballs being included. My injury WAS caused by bad mechanics, not the curveball. I am merely suggesting this may not be an isolated case.

I wasn't aware that I had a theory! I just like to see both sides of an issue. Most people base their ideas on what they hear other people say, I choose to investigate the issue. I am not saying that I am correct, but I do believe that I have the possiblity of being correct. I will always try to learn all that I can. In fact, I have started topics on boards similar to this one regarding the issue of young pitchers throwing curveballs. I once felt that youth pitchers should not throw curveballs, but after a lot of research and thinking, I have changed my mind.


I respect all opinions from everyone on this board. I don't want to argue about any topic because I don't beleive you can learn through anger. If I have implied anywhere that I am right and you are wrong, then I am sorry.

Let's keep discussing all possible sides, and maybe we can finally reach a correct conclusion one of these days.

Have a nice day!

You may find this post that I started about a month ago interesting.

http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=172



Many of the responses are from highly respected people in the world of baseball.

It may not change your mind, but it is worth looking at.

Thanks

rocket,
Me angry...never...that word does not exist in my vocabulary...perhaps a wrong choice if a word...having been in the medical profession for 35 years I have just seen too many things that have caused injuries that could have been prevented...as we speak I am watching a group of youngsters skateboarding maybe 8 or 9 of them ages 6 to 12 and not one of them has on a helmet...I want to go out there and give them a lecture on the ramifications of not wearing the gear but in this day and age the parents would have my head if I did...once you see a kid that has a brain injury you will understand my concern..its called preventative medicine...sorry if I was a little harsh I respect your opinion as long as you can respect mine

As I think back to the kids my son's age when they were 9/10/11/12 who eventually moved on beyond HS, it is the ones who had command of a lively fastball. I cannot think of one of those who relied on a curveball that is moving on...not even the lefties. In fact, I can think of maybe 1 who even still pitched effectively in HS.

Work on your fastball and learn how to throw it to a spot. When you've got that, try to learn a changeup. You won't be wasting your time with either.

NO...NO...NO...are you kidding me? If you are a youth coach, why would you even think about it? If you can't stop him I have other questions...not even at 13, 14...15 maybe, depending on alot of things. This stirs me up as you can see. FB, FB, FB...CU until he is totally in command which will be awhile. You have received very good advice, I don't think much more explanation is needed. I hope you take it.

I am thankful that my husband kept a close eye on my son as he was growing. If he did not, who knows what the 9,10,11,12 etc. could have done to himself.
Those of us that have been there can try to give our advice because it worked for our kids. I realize there are many opinions on this and other things. One can either take the advice from experience or argue the point to death, regardless of what facts one comes up with to prove otherwise.
I also don't know anyone who relied on the CB from early on becoming an effective pitcher in HS. So if someone says it's alright for their 9 year old to throw a CB (even once), let them wonder in 5-6 years why their son's arm hurts.

quote:

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Originally posted by rocket:
Texan,

How can your isolated experience be presented as fact? Maybe you aren't throwing it correctly either!

Can you explain why throwing a curveball is dangerous, but throwing a football is not?

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My experience isn't isolated. Didn't you read CADad's post? And many coaches I know have experienced the same thing.

And I am throwing it correctly.

You don't supinate when you throw a football, that is the difference. And you also have different wrist and arm action in throwing a football compared to throwing a baseball.

Why don't you read the ASMI articles that discourage curves for young pitchers?

Please, think much deeper before you post.

You get good at what you do. Barry Zito started throwing his curve at 7.

I don't see any harm in experimenting with a curve at young age. The fastball is king - just make sure to keep throwing lots of fastballs.

The change up is a devastating pitch at 60'. But I have not seen it used effectively at 12 and under.

Texan,

I was taught how to throw a curveball by a guy who pitched in a MLB All-Star game. He never mentioned twisting your wrist when throwing a curveball. Your arm is in almost the exact position when throwing a curveball as it is when you throw a football. You don't twist, you pull down with the arm before release.

Most articles are based on opinions or statistics, the article that I am referring to is a scientific test. It measured the kinetics involved in throwing different pitches. A fastball was found to be more stressful on the arm than a curveball. Go argue with them if you don't believe it! I personally respect science over opinion.

Just think about something, when you throw a fastball all the force generated by the entire body is used to extend the arm quickly. A fastball allows for full extension of the arm, so the elbow has a lot of force applied to it when it has to stop all of that momentum from the elbow to the hand. A properly thrown curveball allows that momentum to be stopped over a longer period of time by the muscles in the back of the shoulder, because the elbow doesn't have the same force of extension(doesn't extend as much) when throwing a curveball.


"Please, think much deeper before you post."

I am trying to support my opinion with logic and scientific research. You are basically saying the same thing over and over. You are basing your opinion on how you feel when you throw a curveball(possibly incorrectly). That sure isn't conclusive! Maybe you should think deeper! I really don't even know why I am arguing with you, you obviously have all the answers in your own elbow.


Like I stated before, I don't want to argue. I want to learn something through positive debate.

Have a nice day!!!!!!!

SoCalDadx5,

Glad you joined this debate. You bring up a very good point about Zito. He has the best curveball in the Majors. I doubt this would be the case,if he had waited until high school to learn it.

quote:

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Most articles are based on opinions or statistics...

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rocket - I think you just answered the question. As a scientist, I will almost always take statistics (i.e. empirical data...REAL data) over theory. The other test you're basing your opinion on is largely based in theory. If the statistics say its not a good idea, again, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU TAKE A CHANCE?

SoCalDad - I've seen your son pitch. He is phenomenal. His changeup would not work as well when he was younger because it was like everyone else's fastball.

Barry Zito is both lucky and a freak...I wouldn't base it on just him.

quote:

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Originally posted by rocket:
Texan,

I was taught how to throw a curveball by a guy who pitched in a MLB All-Star game. He never mentioned twisting your wrist when throwing a curveball. Your arm is in almost the exact position when throwing a curveball as it is when you throw a football. You don't twist, you pull down with the arm before release.

Most articles are based on opinions or statistics, the article that I am referring to is a scientific test. It measured the kinetics involved in throwing different pitches. A fastball was found to be more stressful on the arm than a curveball. Go argue with them if you don't believe it! I personally respect science over opinion.

Just think about something, when you throw a fastball all the force generated by the entire body is used to extend the arm quickly. A fastball allows for full extension of the arm, so the elbow has a lot of force applied to it when it has to stop all of that momentum from the elbow to the hand. A properly thrown curveball allows that momentum to be stopped over a longer period of time by the muscles in the back of the shoulder, because the elbow doesn't have the same force of extension(doesn't extend as much) when throwing a curveball.


"Please, think much deeper before you post."

I am trying to support my opinion with logic and scientific research. You are basically saying the same thing over and over. You are basing your opinion on how you feel when you throw a curveball(possibly incorrectly). That sure isn't conclusive! Maybe you should think deeper! I really don't even know why I am arguing with you, you obviously have all the answers in your own elbow.


Like I stated before, I don't want to argue. I want to learn something through positive debate.

Have a nice day!!!!!!!

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I am repeating myself because you don't seem to be comprehending what I am saying.

I know that I throw the curve correctly. Your assertions otherwise are wrong. And I have never met a coach who actually throws curves who said the curve was less stressful. I have met armchair coaches who assert this, however.

Second, why do you grasp at one report from ASMI, but ignore their other recommendations? As well as the recommendations of other sports ortho's? Do a web search. You will see a consensus.

Third, a properly thrown fastball does not end with the forearm being stopped by impinging on the elbow. You are incorrect in your analysis. A properly thrown curve will result in impingment upon the elbow, due to the different orientation of the wrist. Have you ever thrown a curve? It is not the same as throwing a football. The wrist pronates when throwing a football. You don't pull the wrist down when throwing a football.

And I have coached enough young players and watched enough young pitchers to state that a very high percentage of the young pitchers who try to throw a curve do NOT throw it correctly. They supinate. But perhaps you also don't think it is "logical" to you that supination is stressful on the elbow.

Have a wonderful day.

And Rocket, here are your stats from the ASMI:

"Baseball - Throwing Mechanics
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers

Lyman S, Fleisig GS, Andres JR, Osinski ED. Effect of pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics on risk of elbow and shoulder pain in youth baseball pitchers. The American Journal of Sports Medicine 30(4):463-468, 2002.

Methods

Researchers from ASMI and the American Baseball Foundation (ABF) followed 476 baseball pitchers ages 9-14 for one season in the spring of 1999. Data was collected from the pitchers using pre-season and postseason questionnaires, injury and performance interviews following each game, pitch count logs, and video analysis of pitching mechanics. The pre-season and postseason questionnaires were used to determine the types of pitches thrown (of particular interest were the fastball, change-up, curveball, and slider). Interviews were performed by phone, and included questions regarding stiffness and pain in the shoulder and elbow. Pitch counts were calculated as pitches per game and pitches per season.

Results

The 476 pitchers used in the study pitched 3789 games during the 1999 spring season. Almost 7% (254 of 3789) of those appearances resulted in elbow pain, and over 9% (353 of 3789) resulted in shoulder pain. Elbow pain was reported by 28% (134 of 476) of the subjects at least once during the season, while shoulder pain was reported by 35% (165 o 476) of the subjects. Half of the subjects in the study reported either elbow or shoulder pain at least once during the season.

The study evaluated the relationship between the types of pitches thrown (fastball, change-up, curveball, and slider) and shoulder or elbow pain. Pitchers in the 9-14 age bracket who threw sliders were 86% more likely to experience elbow pain during the season. Pitchers who threw curveballs were 56% more likely to experience shoulder pain during the season."

Happy now?

Great stuff! Thanks to all!