I'll throw in my two cents based on my 14 yr old's experience. DO NOT ALLOW your nine year old son to throw a curve ball in a game! Success with a curve ball at that age is addictive and it will become his "money" pitch. It is much more important to learn control with the fastball - four seam/two seam and a change.
My son has been fortunate to play "major" tourney ball since he was ten years old and I can't tell you how many 10 & 11 year old curve ball pitchers have fell by the wayside. The fastball pitchers who were around as 10 & 11 year olds are now dominating in tourneys all over the South.
Our best pitcher had a 76 mph fastball as a 13 year old and a killer curve that he threw hard for a strike. He hurt his elbow, throwing the curve in the Governors game last June (04) and still can't throw without pain.
My son who had demonstrated a respectable curveball at 10 years old was not allowed to throw it in a game until last year as a 13 year old. He was forced to perfect his fastball pitches and change up. When playing up in a 14 year old tourney against a good Texas team, the coach called four curve balls. He struck out the first batter with the curve, then proceeded to completely fracture the growth plate in his shoulder with the fourth curve ball thrown.
The orthopedic said the x-rays indicated a small older fracture in the growth plate surrounded by calcium build up. He concluded that my son had probably slightly fractured the shoulder a month earlier diving for a baseball. However, the stress from the curveball caused the fracture to split the entire growth plate.
It turns out that my son's mechanics needed tweaking, but the moral of this long story is that a curveball thrown by a young kid with less than perfect mechanics can lead to disaster.
Don't allow it to happen to your son.
I thought they began teaching the curve in the 8U group
The thought is ludicrous
The thought is ludicrous
quote:
The study evaluated the relationship between the types of pitches thrown (fastball, change-up, curveball, and slider) and shoulder or elbow pain. Pitchers in the 9-14 age bracket who threw sliders were 86% more likely to experience elbow pain during the season. Pitchers who threw curveballs were 56% more likely to experience shoulder pain during the season."
There are three types of lies. Lies, **** lies and statistics. The problem I have with the above "proof" is that it does not appear to factor in pitch count. If a player throws all fastballs how effective are they going to be and how long are they going to be left in. Also, what percentage of pitches were curves for the ones with trouble? I would not advocate the 80% curves that I see some players throwing.
It also does not factor in how the curves were thrown. Most kids try and twist the wrist to get spin instead of allowing the arm action and hand position to determine spin.
Statistics are fine but there are too many factors to determine if your son is going to have a problem. Mine has been throwing one since 10 and has almost no arm trouble.
To my knowledge, the only consistent data is that injury increases with pitch count - duh!
Almost all youth player's arms are in lousy condition to throw any pitch.
Some of us can learn from observing others.............
Some of us have learn from experience................
Some of us have learn from experience................
quote:
To my knowledge, the only consistent data is that injury increases with pitch count - duh!
Uh oh!
That one was debated hotly here about a month ago. Not everyone would agree with you as I learned in that discussion. (By the way, I agree that high pitch counts are related to injuries).SoCalDad - Using your son as the example is not very convincing...he is special. He is way outside of the norm.
I know a boy probably just like that special 13-14, now 18, sitting out his freshmen year, after TJ surgery.........
If you watch most young kids (ages 9-13) throw curves, you will see that many of them tend to drop their elbow below their shoulder and short-arm the pitch, thus likely adding to danger to the elbow. Just watch them.
quote:
Originally posted by justbaseball:
SoCalDad - Using your son as the example is not very convincing...he is special. He is way outside of the norm.
justbaseball,
He may be special but his arm is also well conditioned to throw. That's what makes him "way outside of the norm".
Jason
I think you folks should pay a little more attention to what Texan is saying; he is right on.
While all may argue about whether throwing the deuce will harm a youngsters arm/shoulder/elbow, I think that data shows that IT DOES. There are no justifiable reasons to have him throw one - equating it to a basketball player learning to shoot with is left hand is ridiculous - anybody ever give any evidence that shooting left handed too soon will eventually lead to surgery??
Throwing #2 that early is simply a way to have the end justify the means - there is no reason for it; yeah, every kid is different, but the fact remains that it doesn't matter how many batters a pitcher gets out with Uncle Charlie when he is 9, or how many mythical championships he can win that way. What matters is what kind of arm he has left to compete at the HS level and beyond.
My son threw nothing but FB and Change [started pitching at 9]..he learned to throw a slider from a former major leaguer at age 15 [he throws a slider b/c his pitching coach decided that it was best [as opposed to a CB] based on his arm slot for his FB - nobody is talking about this. Besides the slider being harder to pickup by the batter b/c it resembles the FB so much, he has better repitition/muscle memory, since his arm slot is ALWAYS THE SAME, which include his change-up [his best pitch].
As a HS soph, he has already had exceptional success in Varsity/American Legion ball.
But wait, the best part??? HE HAS NEVER NEVER NEVER HAD A SORE ARM/SHOULDER/ELBOW!!!
Why chance it?? All the kids on my son's team that were throwing the deuce at 9-10, (my boy begging to learn one) - only one is still an effective pitcher [and he experiences frequent elbow pain] - the rest are watching!!
DON'T DO IT
While all may argue about whether throwing the deuce will harm a youngsters arm/shoulder/elbow, I think that data shows that IT DOES. There are no justifiable reasons to have him throw one - equating it to a basketball player learning to shoot with is left hand is ridiculous - anybody ever give any evidence that shooting left handed too soon will eventually lead to surgery??
Throwing #2 that early is simply a way to have the end justify the means - there is no reason for it; yeah, every kid is different, but the fact remains that it doesn't matter how many batters a pitcher gets out with Uncle Charlie when he is 9, or how many mythical championships he can win that way. What matters is what kind of arm he has left to compete at the HS level and beyond.
My son threw nothing but FB and Change [started pitching at 9]..he learned to throw a slider from a former major leaguer at age 15 [he throws a slider b/c his pitching coach decided that it was best [as opposed to a CB] based on his arm slot for his FB - nobody is talking about this. Besides the slider being harder to pickup by the batter b/c it resembles the FB so much, he has better repitition/muscle memory, since his arm slot is ALWAYS THE SAME, which include his change-up [his best pitch].
As a HS soph, he has already had exceptional success in Varsity/American Legion ball.
But wait, the best part??? HE HAS NEVER NEVER NEVER HAD A SORE ARM/SHOULDER/ELBOW!!!
Why chance it?? All the kids on my son's team that were throwing the deuce at 9-10, (my boy begging to learn one) - only one is still an effective pitcher [and he experiences frequent elbow pain] - the rest are watching!!
DON'T DO IT
FlippJ - Yes his arm is well-conditioned to throw which is why I think we probably agree that he is not a good example.
There are no more that a dozen (or fewer) kids his age that are conditioned to throw like that...I think thats important to note and a good reason why the other 99.9% of the young kids' parents should be careful.
There are no more that a dozen (or fewer) kids his age that are conditioned to throw like that...I think thats important to note and a good reason why the other 99.9% of the young kids' parents should be careful.
If the danger of throwing a curveball depends on the conditioning of the arm, then why is everyone saying that NO young players should throw curveballs? Everyone seems to be agreeing that if the arm is strong, then it shoud be fine while throwing a curveball.
I agree with SoCalDad. Those statistics are nothing more than a sample of pitchers who probably throw more and harder(more force) than the rest of pitchers that age. Those are two very important factors in arm injuries.
Kids who throw hard are more likely to hurt their arm, so lets make a rule that a pitcher can't throw above 60mph until he is 14! That should limit arm injuries!
I agree with SoCalDad. Those statistics are nothing more than a sample of pitchers who probably throw more and harder(more force) than the rest of pitchers that age. Those are two very important factors in arm injuries.
Kids who throw hard are more likely to hurt their arm, so lets make a rule that a pitcher can't throw above 60mph until he is 14! That should limit arm injuries!
SoCalDad,
All of the factors you've noted are an inherent part of the statistics you've quoted. The fact is that most kids won't get enough supervision to avoid doing those things.
If a kid gets enough proper supervision, and his arm is well conditioned then the risk is probably minimized.
I do have concerns that even the best conditioned arms may be susceptible to long term repetitive stress type of injuries in areas that don't heal as quickly as muscle. Something like that would of course depend on the individual. No scientific proof, just a concern. It will be interesting to see how well your son's arm holds up over time. I doubt that many pitchers have thrown so hard so young or have been as well prepared to do so. Hopefully your son's arm will have the durability that Ryan's did.
All of the factors you've noted are an inherent part of the statistics you've quoted. The fact is that most kids won't get enough supervision to avoid doing those things.
If a kid gets enough proper supervision, and his arm is well conditioned then the risk is probably minimized.
I do have concerns that even the best conditioned arms may be susceptible to long term repetitive stress type of injuries in areas that don't heal as quickly as muscle. Something like that would of course depend on the individual. No scientific proof, just a concern. It will be interesting to see how well your son's arm holds up over time. I doubt that many pitchers have thrown so hard so young or have been as well prepared to do so. Hopefully your son's arm will have the durability that Ryan's did.
rocket - Come on...now you're arguing nits. Virtually no one would disagree that a well-conditioned arm is less susceptible to injury...not immune, but less likely...just like other parts of your body.
Honestly (and I'm not making a judgement here, just expressing an opinion), but its hard for me to see why a 12-year old touching 80 mph would need anything but a fastball. What does he gain by throwing a curveball?
The kid in our area who threw the most as a youngster and threw a fair (not tons) amount of curveballs at a young age just had TJ surgery. Did the pitch count or the curveballs get him, or did something else? He has great mechanics by the way, and no one would say his arms wasn't in great shape.
And then I remember some comments a year ago when a very high profile freshman pitcher at a top-25 school had TJ surgery. I believe PGStaff had some comments based on their previous scouting of him that in part wondered why he threw so many curveballs to go along with his 90 mph fastball in HS? Seems like they had an inkling of what was to come. I saw him pitch before college...best curveball I have ever seen for his age. But he threw it a lot. Did it cause it/contribute to it? I don't know...but I know a lot of people think it did.
Again, why take the chance?...we're talking about a 9-year old! I just don't get it.
Honestly (and I'm not making a judgement here, just expressing an opinion), but its hard for me to see why a 12-year old touching 80 mph would need anything but a fastball. What does he gain by throwing a curveball?
The kid in our area who threw the most as a youngster and threw a fair (not tons) amount of curveballs at a young age just had TJ surgery. Did the pitch count or the curveballs get him, or did something else? He has great mechanics by the way, and no one would say his arms wasn't in great shape.
And then I remember some comments a year ago when a very high profile freshman pitcher at a top-25 school had TJ surgery. I believe PGStaff had some comments based on their previous scouting of him that in part wondered why he threw so many curveballs to go along with his 90 mph fastball in HS? Seems like they had an inkling of what was to come. I saw him pitch before college...best curveball I have ever seen for his age. But he threw it a lot. Did it cause it/contribute to it? I don't know...but I know a lot of people think it did.
Again, why take the chance?...we're talking about a 9-year old! I just don't get it.
My son did not throw a breaking ball until 17 years of age. It worked for him. Because of his very good fb that moves he throws no more than 8-10% breaking balls and changeups. He is able to that because he has a well developed fb. My question would be why put all the time and effort into a pitch that very few pro guys master? Wouldn't it be more prudent to develop the fastball with location and movement and develop a cutter with the same and a change. Those pitches work very well at higher levels. The slider and splitter are the pitches of the time.
I feel that younger guys dads get caught up in using the breaking balls for no other reason than to be the star now. It is hard to balance development vs. winning and how that effects the arm.
I feel that younger guys dads get caught up in using the breaking balls for no other reason than to be the star now. It is hard to balance development vs. winning and how that effects the arm.
quote:
Originally posted by rocket:
If the danger of throwing a curveball depends on the conditioning of the arm, then why is everyone saying that NO young players should throw curveballs? Everyone seems to be agreeing that if the arm is strong, then it shoud be fine while throwing a curveball.
Everyone? Who is everyone?
I am not included in that everyone.
Is it worth the potential risks. Maybe your son will never have a problem. But if he does is it worth it? And how does throwing a curve ball at 9 teach him how to pitch? He will have alot of success throwing curve balls to 9 year olds.
Tex,
You obviously don't have the ability to give your opinion without resorting to insults. Since you questioned my ability to think deeply and comprehend, I know longer feel the need to include you. The way I look at it, you ran out of reasonable comments to make and resorted to insults. I don't want to argue, but you continue to insist that I do so.
I merely questioned how you throw your curveball. You responded that you throw it correctly, but never told exactly how.
Don't you think that the pain you feel when throwing a cureball may be isolated? You said earlier that you know some others that have felt this as well, but how do you know they are throwing it correctly?
I see no proof that throwing a curveball is more dangerous. The report that I described supported this. All other reports are based on nothing more than opinions, this report contains actual scientific results.
How many kids that are playing at age nine will still be playing when they are seniors in high school? Not a large percentage. Why would you want to ruin a kids chances of having fond memories of baseball just because of the opinions in some report? Let the kids play and have fun, then see what happens as they get older.
How many people on this board threw curveballs when they were young? Is is somehow more dangerous now then in the previous one hundred+ years?
I'm not saying that the curveball should be the primary pitch. I personally believe that it should be the #3 pitch. But, why not teach them the correct way of throwing it before they learn the wrong way on their own? That doesn't mean they have to use it 50 times a game. But, I would rather see them throw 10 correct than 1 incorrect. And I don't care what anyone says, they will experiment with it at some point! Trust me on that.
You obviously don't have the ability to give your opinion without resorting to insults. Since you questioned my ability to think deeply and comprehend, I know longer feel the need to include you. The way I look at it, you ran out of reasonable comments to make and resorted to insults. I don't want to argue, but you continue to insist that I do so.
I merely questioned how you throw your curveball. You responded that you throw it correctly, but never told exactly how.
Don't you think that the pain you feel when throwing a cureball may be isolated? You said earlier that you know some others that have felt this as well, but how do you know they are throwing it correctly?
I see no proof that throwing a curveball is more dangerous. The report that I described supported this. All other reports are based on nothing more than opinions, this report contains actual scientific results.
How many kids that are playing at age nine will still be playing when they are seniors in high school? Not a large percentage. Why would you want to ruin a kids chances of having fond memories of baseball just because of the opinions in some report? Let the kids play and have fun, then see what happens as they get older.
How many people on this board threw curveballs when they were young? Is is somehow more dangerous now then in the previous one hundred+ years?
I'm not saying that the curveball should be the primary pitch. I personally believe that it should be the #3 pitch. But, why not teach them the correct way of throwing it before they learn the wrong way on their own? That doesn't mean they have to use it 50 times a game. But, I would rather see them throw 10 correct than 1 incorrect. And I don't care what anyone says, they will experiment with it at some point! Trust me on that.
Wow! Did I ever open up a can of worms. I am an ex-football player as many of you know. Because my kids seem to have an affinity for baseball, I have become a student of the game. As an engineer I can see how the elbow action which ends in a locking-out movement (even with follow through) could be more stressfull on the arm (curveball) verse a downward follow through back spin (fastball, change, etc). I have to say that damage to growth plates is about as scary as it gets. You folks have convinced me to try to have him avoid the curveball (again, the best that I can). At least I will not encourge it or call for it in a game. One last thing though; My son has always had double jointed elbows. Not severly double jointed, but, enough to look odd when he locks his arms (past parallel). This always bothered me because it looked strange. I am thinking now that this may actually help prevent future elbow problems when pitching. Any comments on this?
Savannah
See an orthopedic doc and get his professional opinion
I know what my doc told me about it
See an orthopedic doc and get his professional opinion
I know what my doc told me about it
Rocket,
What insult? The "think deeply" comment came because it was obvious, based on your comments, that you were not analyzing this at any depth. When you compare a football throw to a curveball throw, you made this rather apparent.
I didn't say, "You idiot, anyone can tell there are major differences in a curveball throw and football throw". I asked you to think through it.
The comprehend comment came after you obviously were either not reading what was posted, or not comprehending. Since you responded to what was posted, I could only assume it was the latter.
Every coach in this area with whom I have talked about the curve has stated that it is tougher on their arm when they throw it in BP. And yes, we do compare grips and arm action.
I do not supinate at all when I throw the curve. The wrist is sideways and the action is down. Again, no supination.
Of course they will experiment some. But when the situation is explained to them and throwing it is not condoned, they will throw it less. As compared to when its use is advocated. That should be obvious to anyone.
I explained the dangers to my pitchers in detail. Including bad wrist action vs. correct wrist action. And told them the positive reasons not to throw the curve early (e.g., better development of fastball and c/u). And also that if I saw curveball spin on a ball, they were going to the bench immediately. Did they throw it in warmups or away from the field sometime? Quite possibly. Did they throw it at the field or in the game? Nope.
You say that not throwing the curve will "ruin a kids chances of having fond memories of baseball just because of the opinions in some report". That is the most ludicrous statement I have seen in a while. Can you show any valid cause/effect relationship there? Of course not.
You pick one report that is a theoretical analysis of biomechanics and want that to wholly support your position. But then you ignore the report based on actual (not theoretical) evidence.
You have your mind made up, regardless of the facts.
Have a wonderful day.
What insult? The "think deeply" comment came because it was obvious, based on your comments, that you were not analyzing this at any depth. When you compare a football throw to a curveball throw, you made this rather apparent.
I didn't say, "You idiot, anyone can tell there are major differences in a curveball throw and football throw". I asked you to think through it.
The comprehend comment came after you obviously were either not reading what was posted, or not comprehending. Since you responded to what was posted, I could only assume it was the latter.
Every coach in this area with whom I have talked about the curve has stated that it is tougher on their arm when they throw it in BP. And yes, we do compare grips and arm action.
I do not supinate at all when I throw the curve. The wrist is sideways and the action is down. Again, no supination.
Of course they will experiment some. But when the situation is explained to them and throwing it is not condoned, they will throw it less. As compared to when its use is advocated. That should be obvious to anyone.
I explained the dangers to my pitchers in detail. Including bad wrist action vs. correct wrist action. And told them the positive reasons not to throw the curve early (e.g., better development of fastball and c/u). And also that if I saw curveball spin on a ball, they were going to the bench immediately. Did they throw it in warmups or away from the field sometime? Quite possibly. Did they throw it at the field or in the game? Nope.
You say that not throwing the curve will "ruin a kids chances of having fond memories of baseball just because of the opinions in some report". That is the most ludicrous statement I have seen in a while. Can you show any valid cause/effect relationship there? Of course not.
You pick one report that is a theoretical analysis of biomechanics and want that to wholly support your position. But then you ignore the report based on actual (not theoretical) evidence.
You have your mind made up, regardless of the facts.
Have a wonderful day.
Well I have to say this is a lively debate!
I fell compelled to throw my deuce cents(sense)in.
The arguement that the curve has to wait until a certian age seems to have an implicit content that reinforces the conditioning arguement. That being that an older (and by that fact stronger) child can accomodate the stress of the curve more effectively than a younger (less conditioned)child can.
All the statistical data seems to support the risk of the curve ball without controlling for level of conditioning. Could the younger child offset the difference with a well concieved program that enhances the strength of the elbow and shoulder?
To all those who are not willing to allow their child to play with the CU or the slider on the basis of potential injury but rejoice in watching thier kids strap on a helmut and shoulder pads and run into each other at full speed; do you not feel that there's not a bit of hypocrisy here? I think the risks are not nearly equivalent.
I know of all my sports injuries the ones acquired in football are the most detrimental and lingering.
Rollerman
Interesting point, Rollerman. Worth thinking about.
Texan,
You have your opinion and I have mine. And that is the problem, they are only opinions! There is no proof either way. There are reports and statistics that suggest both opinions could be wrong.
As for my comment about kids not having good memories about baseball. I am saying that an average pitcher that doesn't throw a curveball will likely not pitch past 12 years old. I have seen this many times in my area. If they don't have some success, then they will quit before they even get to high school.
I coach a 10 under baseball team. I haven't taught them a curveball yet, because I want them to learn and trust their fastball and change up first. I will probably teach them a curveball within the next couple of years. Not because of my desire to win, but I want them to learn to throw it correctly and trust it during game situations. I won't let it become their #2 pitch, it will always remain the third choice behind the Fastball and Change up. I will likely let them throw it only to get out of a jam and I will set a maximum number per game. As long as they are supervised and instructed on how and when to throw it, then I honestly don't see any problems with it.
With that said, I do have a major problem with those coaches who let their kids throw them incorrectly(supinate).
As for supinating when throwing a curveball, at least we both agree on something.
Take care.
You have your opinion and I have mine. And that is the problem, they are only opinions! There is no proof either way. There are reports and statistics that suggest both opinions could be wrong.
As for my comment about kids not having good memories about baseball. I am saying that an average pitcher that doesn't throw a curveball will likely not pitch past 12 years old. I have seen this many times in my area. If they don't have some success, then they will quit before they even get to high school.
I coach a 10 under baseball team. I haven't taught them a curveball yet, because I want them to learn and trust their fastball and change up first. I will probably teach them a curveball within the next couple of years. Not because of my desire to win, but I want them to learn to throw it correctly and trust it during game situations. I won't let it become their #2 pitch, it will always remain the third choice behind the Fastball and Change up. I will likely let them throw it only to get out of a jam and I will set a maximum number per game. As long as they are supervised and instructed on how and when to throw it, then I honestly don't see any problems with it.
With that said, I do have a major problem with those coaches who let their kids throw them incorrectly(supinate).
As for supinating when throwing a curveball, at least we both agree on something.
Take care.
One more point that I forgot to mention.
I still believe that throwing without being properly conditioned is the main reason for arm injuries, not overuse or CURVEBALLS.
But, this is just my opinion.
I still believe that throwing without being properly conditioned is the main reason for arm injuries, not overuse or CURVEBALLS.
But, this is just my opinion.
A pitching coach told us when our son was at that age, to not do it! He taught him how to throw a changeup. Said that was all he needed until high school. Fastball and Changeup are what matters. Seems as though coaches want to teach kids curveballs to fool hitters and get outs. Changeup will do the exact same thing without the added stress. He went on to say it is not the "curve" of the pitch that fools hitters, it is the speed. So, he shelved the curveball, and went strickly fastball/changeup for Little League and Babe Ruth.
quote:
Originally posted by rocket:
As for my comment about kids not having good memories about baseball. I am saying that an average pitcher that doesn't throw a curveball will likely not pitch past 12 years old. I have seen this many times in my area. If they don't have some success, then they will quit before they even get to high school.
Wow. That is an incredible statement.
I did not allow any of my pitchers to throw a curve until 13YO. And then they could only use it sparingly.
And guess what? The pitchers who played on my teams for a couple of seasons or more are still pitching as they go into HS!
And they were successful pitchers without the curve. They had several fastball grips and at least one changeup grip that they used. They were taught pitch strategy and pitch selection. How to change speeds, location, angles, movement. How to read the batter.
They enjoyed success. Many of them still don't use the curve much. They don't need to. A good changeup is a better pitch than a curve, as it is harder to detect if thrown properly (e.g., with identical fastball mechanics).
Young pitchers do not, I repeat "not", need a curve to be successful. They do need to be able to thow a changeup, unless they are an incredible fireballer. {And even then, they need to learn to throw a good changeup, because at some point they will no longer be able to blow it by the hitters.} They do need some command of their fastball.
I have seen the reverse of what you described. I have seen pitchers throwing curves at 9/10YO. And they showed potential. And yes, they had success. But they were no longer pitching by 12YO, because of arm problems in some cases and because of an underdeveloped fastball in other cases.
I have never seen a logical case made for taking the risk.
The last sentence was the key to that quote. "If they don't have some success, then they will quit before they even get to high school".
If they aren't having some success, then they aren't having fun. If they aren't having fun, then they won't continue to play!!!! That was the point of my statement. Notice also that I mention an AVERAGE pitcher who doesn't throw a curveball will have problems pitching past 12 years old. Of course, there are exceptions. But an average pitcher cannot rely on just a fastball and change up to be successful at that age. They don't have the control that MLB pitchers have. They can't paint the corners, so they will get hit very hard! How long is a kid going to stick with pitching if he can't get anyone out? Remember, I am talking about an average pitcher, not the flame throwers.
I do agree with you on one point. If they rely on the curveball too much at a early age, then they won't develop the fastball that is needed to continue to advance. Keep in mind, I have said many times that a curveball should be the third pitch. I don't like to see pitchers that throw curveballs 50+ percent of the time(as in the Little League World Series).
If they aren't having some success, then they aren't having fun. If they aren't having fun, then they won't continue to play!!!! That was the point of my statement. Notice also that I mention an AVERAGE pitcher who doesn't throw a curveball will have problems pitching past 12 years old. Of course, there are exceptions. But an average pitcher cannot rely on just a fastball and change up to be successful at that age. They don't have the control that MLB pitchers have. They can't paint the corners, so they will get hit very hard! How long is a kid going to stick with pitching if he can't get anyone out? Remember, I am talking about an average pitcher, not the flame throwers.
I do agree with you on one point. If they rely on the curveball too much at a early age, then they won't develop the fastball that is needed to continue to advance. Keep in mind, I have said many times that a curveball should be the third pitch. I don't like to see pitchers that throw curveballs 50+ percent of the time(as in the Little League World Series).
Let me try a different angle...
I am SOOOooo happy that the league my son played in did not allow curveball through age 12. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I am SOOOooo happy that the league my son played in did not allow curveball through age 12. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
rocket - Turn it around using your logic...let them throw curveballs at age 9/10/11 and none of the hitters will want to play past age 12. 
How many pitchers in the Major Leagues do you think waited until they were 14 to start throwing curveballs? I would say very few!
Explain how their arm didn't fall off, as most people seem to think!
Explain how their arm didn't fall off, as most people seem to think!
Let me just say, I probably agree with everyone on this website on about 99% of the issues concerning baseball. But in regards to the curveball, I have to disagree.
Every pitch you throw is stressful, why don't we just keep all kids from playing baseball until they are 14? That would certainly decrease arm injuries!
Every pitch you throw is stressful, why don't we just keep all kids from playing baseball until they are 14? That would certainly decrease arm injuries!
Rocket,
I read this topic with great interest. It has come up many times before - but is always interesting.
The only question I have is - what exactly is the motivation for (and desired result of) having a 9 year old throw a curve ball?
I read this topic with great interest. It has come up many times before - but is always interesting.
The only question I have is - what exactly is the motivation for (and desired result of) having a 9 year old throw a curve ball?
For what it is worth, I will tell you what I did with my son and his teammates. Every kid pitched in practices and games. When they were 13 years old, they did flat ground work during every practice, and I also had them do breaking ball drills. They were not allowed to throw any breaking balls in games.
When they were 14, we continued with the breadking ball drills at practices, then they were not allowed to throw breaking balls in games until the middle of the season, approximately the last week of June.
When I allowed them to throw breaking balls, they were only allowed to do so on two counts (0-1 count and 1-2 count). This limited the amount of breaking balls they threw in games. It also required that they threw first pitch strikes and that they learned to throw fastballs out of the zone on 0-2 counts.
It worked for my kids at that age. The rules were adhered to even in big games and in the post season. The team was a very successful team.
When they were 14, we continued with the breadking ball drills at practices, then they were not allowed to throw breaking balls in games until the middle of the season, approximately the last week of June.
When I allowed them to throw breaking balls, they were only allowed to do so on two counts (0-1 count and 1-2 count). This limited the amount of breaking balls they threw in games. It also required that they threw first pitch strikes and that they learned to throw fastballs out of the zone on 0-2 counts.
It worked for my kids at that age. The rules were adhered to even in big games and in the post season. The team was a very successful team.
rocket - I have no idea if you're right or wrong about major leaguers...but neither do you.
I think the real question is how many kids WON'T pitch effectively in HS because they fell in love with the curveball at a young age. I can only speak to the kids I have known and the answer is all but one (out of dozens). The others either have sore arms or don't know how to locate a fastball (i.e. not very good control).
I think the real question is how many kids WON'T pitch effectively in HS because they fell in love with the curveball at a young age. I can only speak to the kids I have known and the answer is all but one (out of dozens). The others either have sore arms or don't know how to locate a fastball (i.e. not very good control).
Just an observation.
I coached youth ball (under 13) for about 10 years in my former town. Then another 10 years (18U). I got to follow the kids very closely - given that I lived in the community for 22 years.
Every single kid that threw curveballs in little league did not make it to High School.
For whatever reasons - not 1 kid. Quite a sample size IMO.
Destroyed arms - all for plastic trophies in little league and senior leagues.
I always felt bad about it - always warned against - and ultimately - just gave up because I couldnt stop the dads from going down this road.
To this day - I question whether or not I should have ever coached - given that I couldnt stop this obvious abuse.
I coached youth ball (under 13) for about 10 years in my former town. Then another 10 years (18U). I got to follow the kids very closely - given that I lived in the community for 22 years.
Every single kid that threw curveballs in little league did not make it to High School.
For whatever reasons - not 1 kid. Quite a sample size IMO.
Destroyed arms - all for plastic trophies in little league and senior leagues.
I always felt bad about it - always warned against - and ultimately - just gave up because I couldnt stop the dads from going down this road.
To this day - I question whether or not I should have ever coached - given that I couldnt stop this obvious abuse.
Have I ever said they should fall in love with the curveball? I have stated numerous time that a curveball should be the third pitch.
As far as the major league pitcher question, I was just wanting your opinion. How many do you think waited until they were 14? I not asking for a specific number.
Look, I am not trying to say that you are wrong if you wait until your kid is 14 to allow him to throw a curveball. I am just saying that somehow/somewhere the curveball has been presented as "evil". People are saying we shouldn't allow pitchers to throw curveballs, but we continue to see an increase in arm injuries in the game of baseball. Maybe forbidding kids to throw a curveball isn't the answer. Maybe we should be more focused on mechanics, arm and body conditioning, and pitch counts, rather than a single pitch. That is all I am saying. A curveball thrown 10-15 times per game can't be the reason for such an increase in arm injuries. But, I guess they have to blame it on something, and the curveball is the easiest.
As far as the major league pitcher question, I was just wanting your opinion. How many do you think waited until they were 14? I not asking for a specific number.
Look, I am not trying to say that you are wrong if you wait until your kid is 14 to allow him to throw a curveball. I am just saying that somehow/somewhere the curveball has been presented as "evil". People are saying we shouldn't allow pitchers to throw curveballs, but we continue to see an increase in arm injuries in the game of baseball. Maybe forbidding kids to throw a curveball isn't the answer. Maybe we should be more focused on mechanics, arm and body conditioning, and pitch counts, rather than a single pitch. That is all I am saying. A curveball thrown 10-15 times per game can't be the reason for such an increase in arm injuries. But, I guess they have to blame it on something, and the curveball is the easiest.
Actually Rocket - IMO - the incredible increase in arm injuries cannot be attributed to only one cause. I agree.
I think it would be statistically impossible for that to be the case.
Given the exponential increase in youth baseball players arm injuries in the last 10 years - it is reasonable to assume that there has to be multiple causes.
IMO - One factor that must be included however - is the use of the curveball at younger and younger ages - as well as the frequency of such use.
Thats the easy part to figure out. The more interesting part to me is - Why?
I think it would be statistically impossible for that to be the case.
Given the exponential increase in youth baseball players arm injuries in the last 10 years - it is reasonable to assume that there has to be multiple causes.
IMO - One factor that must be included however - is the use of the curveball at younger and younger ages - as well as the frequency of such use.
Thats the easy part to figure out. The more interesting part to me is - Why?
rocket - No, I don't think you said they'd fall in love with the curveball. But I think they will...at least thats my observation over 14 years of coaching kids. If a 9/10/11/12 year old can control it (i.e. get it near the strike zone), then he can get easy outs with it. That makes him fall in love with it, his parents usually, and his coach usually. And then it gets used too much. Its also a reason I didn't practice it with my sons when they were young. I didn't really want them to find out they could have a lot of success with it. Plenty of time for that later.
On the major leaguer question...I just have no idea. What I know is what I said before...the kids in my area who threw it a lot at that age (or even threw it much at all) didn't enjoy much pitching success in HS. Like I said, I can only think of one, maybe two out of dozens.
On the major leaguer question...I just have no idea. What I know is what I said before...the kids in my area who threw it a lot at that age (or even threw it much at all) didn't enjoy much pitching success in HS. Like I said, I can only think of one, maybe two out of dozens.
rocket...2nd time I agreed with Just today...look at the LLWS...most kids threw breaking balls to the tune of 60-70% of the time. They do fall in love with it and as you could see, their coaches could care less how often they threw it and with 100 pitch counts. They obviously just wanted to WIN at any cost...on top of that, alot of them were the coaches kid...too bad.
Starzz,
I didn't see that many curves at the LLWS. A couple teams had their #2 or #3 pitcher throwing a lot of curves but in general I didn't see that many. Then again I mostly just watched the Conejo games where teams were throwing curve ball pitchers against a team that hit curve ball pitchers well and struggled against good fast ball pitchers.
I didn't see that many curves at the LLWS. A couple teams had their #2 or #3 pitcher throwing a lot of curves but in general I didn't see that many. Then again I mostly just watched the Conejo games where teams were throwing curve ball pitchers against a team that hit curve ball pitchers well and struggled against good fast ball pitchers.