I find it interesting that a D3 roster question size could turn into a D1 vs D3 talent debate. This seems to come up a lot here. IMO, if a player plays almost anywhere in college, regardless of the division, than he can be successful. What defines each players definition of success varies according to that players goals.
And as we are so fond of saying, go where the best "fit" is, regardless of division. But do your homework 1st so you know what kind of a roster situation your son is getting into.
Swampboy,
I more or less agree with your analysis, (and basically confirmed by IFD - whose opinion I respect since he has “been there and done that”) but want to point out a couple of things you may be incorrect about.
First, the top D3 programs that IFD pointed out that get kids drafted have as good or better facilities, staff, and support and training infrastructure as many of the mid level D1 programs we looked at. I don’t know all of the programs on his list, but a number of them, and the one that my son is at is as good as all of the programs that were on his final D1 consideration list, except one.
His fall training schedule was pretty consistent with his friends who were at D1 programs. (including a number who are nationally ranked) The main difference was that he spent more time in the gym, cage, field, etc, on HIS schedule not that of a team as a whole. (or in groups of 3 as they do at D1’s due to contact limits) They allowed him to work around his academic schedule, but the expectations were (for the players who were on the field at least) that if you were going to compete at the level they compete at you have to get the work in. I can also say that not all players put in the amount of work he did, so a D3 player must be more self motivated if he wants to stay on pace with his D1 brethren.
Although his schedule is officially shorter, they pretty much make the playoffs every year so when you take into account the playoffs his team plays the same number of games as most D1’s, except those who make the D1 tournament.
His program puts players (who can compete at that level) in the top summer leagues. My son has not signed his contract yet, but it looks like he will be playing in one of the top 5 summer leagues in the country coming off his freshmen season.
In spite of this you are correct that his team is not full of D1 players, however (and I am guessing at this right now since I have not seen them play yet) probably 6 of their pitchers compete at the D1 level, and probably 6-8 of their position players. So I am estimating that 12-15 of the players on his team would compete quite nicely against D1 players, which is consistent with who they place in summer leagues, which I think is in the range of 15-20ish each summer.
FWIW, the 3 freshmen (one redshirt) that look like are going to see the field this year at his school were all in PG’s database and ranked.
So what is the point of all of this? I am coming at this from the standpoint of a potential college baseball player or his parents.
1) Don’t assume that because it is a D3 that you have an easier chance at getting playing time. For the top programs at least, be prepared to compete with some very talented ball players, probably better than you expected. To RJM’s point some programs it may be very difficult. Some programs may over recruit - just like some D1’s.
2) Do your homework, not all D3 programs are the same, if you think you want to play at the next level then you will have to be very selective about the D3 program, more so than a D1.
3) To play at the highest level at a D3, you are probably going to have to be more self-motivated than some of your D1 friends.
4) There are many D3 programs out there, not all are like the programs we have been discussing in this thread. There is probably a wider range of talent at the D3 level because of the classification.
5) Do your homework, do your homework, do your homework.
I more or less agree with your analysis, (and basically confirmed by IFD - whose opinion I respect since he has “been there and done that”) but want to point out a couple of things you may be incorrect about.
First, the top D3 programs that IFD pointed out that get kids drafted have as good or better facilities, staff, and support and training infrastructure as many of the mid level D1 programs we looked at. I don’t know all of the programs on his list, but a number of them, and the one that my son is at is as good as all of the programs that were on his final D1 consideration list, except one.
His fall training schedule was pretty consistent with his friends who were at D1 programs. (including a number who are nationally ranked) The main difference was that he spent more time in the gym, cage, field, etc, on HIS schedule not that of a team as a whole. (or in groups of 3 as they do at D1’s due to contact limits) They allowed him to work around his academic schedule, but the expectations were (for the players who were on the field at least) that if you were going to compete at the level they compete at you have to get the work in. I can also say that not all players put in the amount of work he did, so a D3 player must be more self motivated if he wants to stay on pace with his D1 brethren.
Although his schedule is officially shorter, they pretty much make the playoffs every year so when you take into account the playoffs his team plays the same number of games as most D1’s, except those who make the D1 tournament.
His program puts players (who can compete at that level) in the top summer leagues. My son has not signed his contract yet, but it looks like he will be playing in one of the top 5 summer leagues in the country coming off his freshmen season.
In spite of this you are correct that his team is not full of D1 players, however (and I am guessing at this right now since I have not seen them play yet) probably 6 of their pitchers compete at the D1 level, and probably 6-8 of their position players. So I am estimating that 12-15 of the players on his team would compete quite nicely against D1 players, which is consistent with who they place in summer leagues, which I think is in the range of 15-20ish each summer.
FWIW, the 3 freshmen (one redshirt) that look like are going to see the field this year at his school were all in PG’s database and ranked.
So what is the point of all of this? I am coming at this from the standpoint of a potential college baseball player or his parents.
1) Don’t assume that because it is a D3 that you have an easier chance at getting playing time. For the top programs at least, be prepared to compete with some very talented ball players, probably better than you expected. To RJM’s point some programs it may be very difficult. Some programs may over recruit - just like some D1’s.
2) Do your homework, not all D3 programs are the same, if you think you want to play at the next level then you will have to be very selective about the D3 program, more so than a D1.
3) To play at the highest level at a D3, you are probably going to have to be more self-motivated than some of your D1 friends.
4) There are many D3 programs out there, not all are like the programs we have been discussing in this thread. There is probably a wider range of talent at the D3 level because of the classification.
5) Do your homework, do your homework, do your homework.
For d3's, it varies tremendously from school to school. For example, on the big roster end, freshman never play at Johns Hopkins (74 on their current roster) & Trinity (TX) usually has close to 50 on their roster. At my school (play in UAA), we carry a 26 man roster which usually has most players contributing any given weekend. I really do prefer having the small roster because of the tight family it forms between my teammates and myself, but everyone has a different preference.
quote:In spite of this you are correct that his team is not full of D1 players, however (and I am guessing at this right now since I have not seen them play yet) probably 6 of their pitchers compete at the D1 level, and probably 6-8 of their position players. So I am estimating that 12-15 of the players on his team would compete quite nicely against D1 players, which is consistent with who they place in summer leagues, which I think is in the range of 15-20ish each summer.
Well, I'm glad that we don't have to play you until at least May....
My son chose to play D3 because he liked the school, liked the location, liked the coach, and liked the program. That's all that matters in the end anyway...
quote:For example, on the big roster end, freshman never play at Johns Hopkins (74 on their current roster) & Trinity (TX) usually has close to 50 on their roster.
highheat15, I cannot speak for JHU but I can for Trinity(TX) on whether freshman play.
They do. They do in pretty large numbers.
Trinity sometimes carries a larger roster for one reason...the Head Coach has a very tough time cutting players who want to be on the team and will do the work.
Not all the players on their roster are recruited HS players. Even though they are on the roster, the Coach can be very clear about playing time/travel and the like.
The players Trinity recruits are given every opportunity as freshman to put in the work, produce and play. That was true when our son was recruited there, when he was the recruiting coordinator, and when he passed that position to the current recruiting coach Fregosi.
Going back as far as 2004, our son's senior year, TU had only 3 seniors.
They had a wonderfully talented freshman class. Those guys played, pitched and competed and helped that team get one game from Appleton.
That is one example. Over many years under Coach Scannell, Trinity freshman start, play and produce in pretty large numbers at a program which competes with the best, Nationally.
To me, it is a matter of transparency. As long as the coach doesn't mislead a student about playing time before the decision to enroll is made, then having a large roster seems like no big deal.
quote:For example, on the big roster end, freshman never play at Johns Hopkins (74 on their current roster) & Trinity (TX) usually has close to 50 on their roster.
But if you look at the 2011 stats for JHU, only 25 players actually saw the field.
Question: There are no 'redshirts' at D3. If you are on the spring roster you burn a year of eligibility. Doesn't keeping everyone on the roster just burn up a lot of players eligibility with no hope of playing?
Maybe it doesn't matter for most players. One of my son's girlfriends was injured just before volleyball season started (D2) and her dad wanted her to take a medical redshirt. She refused since 'By then, I'll be in med school'...
At a school like Johns Hopkins, if a kid isn't playing he stays for the education rather than transfer. It's one of the top universities in the country.
quote:My son chose to play D3 because he liked the school, liked the location, liked the coach, and liked the program. That's all that matters in the end anyway...
In the end this is what's important, the rest is just bla bla bla.
I think who is playing is also very year dependent, I know this year at Trinity the recruiting class was small and next year they are projecting a bigger class to fill in for departing Jr's the following year.
I am hoping to play you guys in May Hawk.
There is a reality that you can begin to understand if you look at any given team's roster and stats for a year. It really doesn't matter what the roster size is; what matters is how many play and do you think your kiddo will be one of the kids that play.
I looked at the team my son played four years for. Each year they had a roster of 45-50 players. Yet if you looked at the stats; generally 15+ had more than 20 AB's and 11-12 pitchers had more than 5 innings pitched. It was consistent year in, year out. In spite of a large roster only 26 kids really had any playing time.
Coaches recruit kids that they believe will make an impact to their program. Some do, some don't and some move on. At the same time; at the D3 level, even schools that recruit heavily, kids show up that make teams and make an impact.
As to freshman, do your research. At my son's school I came to see a pattern where freshman were generally given an opportunity immediately, unless there was an incumbant starter that had the job no matter what. The kids that were recruited were generally always given a shot to show what they could do. Those that made an impact stayed in the line-up. Those that needed seasoning were generally front runners the next year.
Then there were those that thought that they were better than what the coaches preceived. Most of them moved on and I rarely saw them make a major impact at their future schools.
I looked at the team my son played four years for. Each year they had a roster of 45-50 players. Yet if you looked at the stats; generally 15+ had more than 20 AB's and 11-12 pitchers had more than 5 innings pitched. It was consistent year in, year out. In spite of a large roster only 26 kids really had any playing time.
Coaches recruit kids that they believe will make an impact to their program. Some do, some don't and some move on. At the same time; at the D3 level, even schools that recruit heavily, kids show up that make teams and make an impact.
As to freshman, do your research. At my son's school I came to see a pattern where freshman were generally given an opportunity immediately, unless there was an incumbant starter that had the job no matter what. The kids that were recruited were generally always given a shot to show what they could do. Those that made an impact stayed in the line-up. Those that needed seasoning were generally front runners the next year.
Then there were those that thought that they were better than what the coaches preceived. Most of them moved on and I rarely saw them make a major impact at their future schools.