D3 roster limitations

Have you checked to see if they have a JV team and simply list both squads on a single roster? I've seen several that do that.

From what I've read, the NCAA doesn't set a limit on DIII roster size. There are limits for tournament teams, and some conferences have limits.

I'm no expert and others may weigh in with more information.

FWIW my son's program had 43 last year and has no JV team. Travel squad varied but was around 25.

I remember a member here (he can ID himself) telling me over thirty players tried out for three positions at his son's D3 program. All were recruited to some degree. That left about thirty players on the outside looking in after they thought they were recruited. During the recruiting process pay real close attention to what the coaches are telling you. Don't just hear and translate what you want to hear.

it is all acDEMIC IF THE PLAYER BELIEVES IN HIMSELF AND HIS TALENT

As mentioned, some conferences may have a limit. 4thGen's team carries about 35 and travels with 25. At cold weather schools that pack a large number of games into a short season it is difficult to keep 35 kids ready to play. Kids may go quite a while without a bullpen or pregame BP if they are not playing.

Some schools will have large rosters and JV teams. In some cases it may be a way to help the school recruit students.

That is true TR but there are lots of DIII programs that have a wide variety of talent, more so than probably any other division. So RJM offers good advice, just be aware of the program and the expectations. For the top nationally ranked DIII programs you should be pretty close to a DI player if you expect to see much playing time, but then there are others that are no where near this level.

My son drew interest from a top D3 program the summer after his soph year of high school through his travel team. It turned him off when he saw there were 50+ on the roster. Then he heard players tend not to get playing time until junior year.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
My son drew interest from a top D3 program the summer after his soph year of high school through his travel team. It turned him off when he saw there were 50+ on the roster. Then he heard players tend not to get playing time until junior year.

I have never heard of or seen a college coach, especially a DIII coach do anything but play his best 10-12 position players and best 8-9 pitchers.
It doesn't matter how many are on the roster.
It doesn't matter what year in school.
Those who compete, play and produce the best..they play.
The one limitation is a coach might gradually work talented freshman into the line up, or he might take the approach a freshman must show they have to be better than an upper class man or returning player.

Some D3 programs draw the attention of potential mid major D1 players due to the academic reputation. These are kids who would expect to have the opportunity to start freshman or at worst soph year. It's not happening very often in this program. One of my son's teammate's older brother made the travel roster his freshman year but still didn't get on the field for more than a couple of innings.

quote:

It's not happening very often in this program. One of my son's teammate's older brother made the travel roster his freshman year but still didn't get on the field for more than a couple of innings.

Hard to understand your point, here.
Are you saying those coaches don't play the best players. Or, are you saying the best players are upper class men.
Or, are you saying this one program does not play the best players and the coach does not believe in giving playing time to freshman?
When our son was the recruiting coordinator for a top 25 DIII program, he only recruited players who could/should compete for playing time as freshman and who would challenge returning players to get better.

They have a reputation of overrecruiting talent based on the lure of an extremely highly touted academic reputation. Most of their roster could play mid major D1. Given this level of recruitment it's very difficult for underclassmen to get on the field. The travel coaches in the area have caught on to what this school is doing. I've heard they're telling players it's not a great choice unless academics far exceeds getting on the field. It's what my son's coach was tellng his class.

What you are describing is just part of the process of finding the right fit. It all depends on the players’ skill level, academic desires, location, cost, etc. The top nationally ranked DIII programs attract top-level talent; if you can’t compete at that level then don’t go there. It is no different than the top D1 programs. Regardless of the level a college coach wants to attract the highest level talent he can get. Just because a program is DIII does not mean the players are sub-par to D1. I never really understood this until my son went through the recruiting process and saw some of the nationally ranked teams and players.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
What you are describing is just part of the process of finding the right fit. It all depends on the players’ skill level, academic desires, location, cost, etc. The top nationally ranked DIII programs attract top-level talent; if you can’t compete at that level then don’t go there.

So in general, it's a good idea to go to a school where your son would be one of the better players even if the baseball program is not as well-regarded, correct? (If early playing time is very important).

Blue that is a personal decision that only your son can answer. My son had the opportunity to play at a range of schools, from a stretch for him PAC12, a couple of Big West schools, etc down to a very competitive DIII. He decided on the DIII for a whole bunch of reasons. He has friends at nationally ranked D1 programs who won’t see much time on the field, but are having a great time. One of his serious choices was between a program that is a perennially loosing D1 program, but was a good academic match, vs. his program that is a perennial winner and expects to go to the playoffs. He will probably have a lot more fun at a winning program vs. a losing program, but again this is personal. He has a chance to play as a freshman, but not many freshmen at his program get to play much. Again it is all about what a player wants and how he fits. I think parents put more emphasis on playing also. My son tells me he would be happy just contributing to the team this season, he is getting great coaching, great S&C training, and is really becoming a “college” level player and I don’t think he would be terribly upset if he did not see the field too much, but again these are all personal decisions.

I would also add that at that, at least for me, it is more important to get good coaching than anything else. If it is a players desire to get better, then go to a program that has great coaching. It is usually not an accident that they are winning and winning programs usually have great coaching. If playing is more important than being the best you can be then go to a program you can play at.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Most of their roster could play mid major D1.

I often encounter this claim and variations of it. It almost seems to be an article of faith with some people. If this claim is true, it should be fairly easy to demonstrate it just by pointing to a single D3 roster whose players' credentials are comparable to those on a mid-major roster.

I have not been able to confirm this claim by my own exertions, which consisted of looking at the rosters of two very highly successful D3 programs and comparing them to a mid-major D1 roster.

One of the D3 schools, ranked #1 in the country in one pre-season poll, has only 3 players that are even in the PG database. Of those three, one was ranked "Follow" and the other two were not ranked at all. Nearly all the players seem to hail from within about 150 miles of campus

I suppose it is theoretically possible that an amazingly talented recruiter could identify a roster full of mid-major D1 talent in his own backyard (a backyard that has too much snow to be considered a recruiting hotbed) that PG has never even heard of and convince them to come to his D3 school, but I'd need to see proof to believe it.

Then I looked the roster for another perennially successful D3 in a warmer part of the country, a school with an excellent academic reputation and a record of going to the NCAA's and doing damage there on a regular basis.

They still have their 2011 roster posted on their web site, so that's what I went with.

Half of their roster was in the PG data base. 10 of the ones that were in the database not ranked, 7 were marked "Follow," 3 were marked "High Follow," and 2 had rankings of around 1500. On paper, that seems better than the other D3 I looked at, but it still seems well short of being stacked with D1 talent.

For comparison, I looked at an academically prestigious D1 that stands around the middle of a conference that is itself right around the middle of the conference RPI rankings. I suppose it's about as mid-major as you can get.

On this roster, all but 5 players are in the PG database, and all but 5 of the others had some kind of ranking: 1 was ranked in the top 500, 4 between 500 and 1000, 3 between 1000 and 1500, 3 between 1500 and 2000, 5 were "High Follow" and 2 were "Follow." Much smaller roster, but many more ranked players with much higher rankings.

The highest ranked player I found on either of the D3 rosters would have been the 8th highest ranked player on the mid-major roster.

If anyone knows of a Black Swan D3 whose roster bears evidence that there is a D3 team loaded with mid-major D1 talent, I would be grateful to see it.

Until then, I will take claims of D3/D1 roster parity with a grain of salt.

This program has players go on to professional baseball all the time.

Please identify it so I can see how the roster stacks up.

If you don't want to air the name publicly, you can PM it to me. I'll do the research and only report back success or failure of the project without naming the school on the public board.

There are plenty of kids at all levels of college baseball who are not scored by PG. Your conclussion would be a complete assumption and possibly a false positive to the benefit of your view.

I'm not going to identify the program because I've criticized their recruiting practices. The coach is a quality contact of my son's former travel team coach. I wouldn't want it to come around, "A parent of one of your players publicly criticized my program."

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There are plenty of kids at all levels of college baseball who are not scored by PG. Your conclussion would be a complete assumption and possibly a false positive to the benefit of your view.

RJM,

I readily grant that many good players are not in the PG database, so I am open to any other plausible indicators of comparability. But your point does raise the question: if PG information won't satisfy you, what was your original claim based on?

By the way, my view is dispassionate skepticism. I'm skeptical, but I think it would be neat if it were true. I'm more interested in finding out if it's true than in arguing about it one way or the other.

This is the kind of claim that could be proved true with a single positive example, so that's what I'm looking for. Sort of the same reason I leave a steel-jawed trap on my fireplace grate on Christmas eve.

The PM option remains available. I'll keep your confidence and refrain from naming the school.

Swampboy,

I like the approach you have, although not everyone will be in PG’s database or was active at PG events, but if you have the time you could go to Chapman's roster and take a look at it. (I think they are ranked #2 this year). The thing that you need to see who is actually playing, not the full roster, so go and see who played last year and look at those kids. IMO there is no question that there will be fewer "D1" kids on a D3 roster, (again we are only talking about the ~ top 25 teams) but I bet that most of the starters (or say maybe the top 6) and the top three starting pitchers would compete quite nicely at most D1’s. I think what you will find is that the kids who are on the field will be at the D1 level, but the depth will not be the same as a D1.

I just did a quick check on the 3 freshmen at my son’s program who he said he thought would get some playing time this year and one is a red shirt D1 drop down who was ranked by PG in his graduating year around 750ish, the other two were “High Follows”. So that is 3 for 3 at my son’s program.
He also told me that he expects that 6 pitchers will be throwing in the 90's. (which surprised me)

The other thing I think you may find at some of the top D3’s is that they are good at identifying kids that will develop into “D1” players, or late bloomers who they can take the time to develop. An example of this is a pitcher I know who is graduating this year but will just turn 17 right before he graduates. He is a 6’5” lefty that many D1 programs looked at but no one wanted to commit money to and wait for him to develop, so he may end up at a D3.(I am hoping my son's) In two years I know he is going to be a front line starter for whoever gets him.

So your point is well taken, I am sure infieldad can fill in here a bit also since he has a lot of experience at college baseball as well as high level D3's.

quote:

go to Chapman's roster and take a look at it.

Chapman's #2 pitcher last year was rated a 6.0 by PG in HS. He is Chapman's career leader in 'wins'.

Maybe your second point of identifying potential is at work here.

BOF,

All valid points, especially the ones about which nine are really playing and about D3's needing to have an eye for players with hidden upside.

Will try to check out the one you recommended tonight. Thanks.

Hawk/Swamp,

I just went and check on the number 1 at my son's program and he was not in the PG database.

My son said at their fall world series he was 92-93 topping at 96, with 25 scouts in the stands when he was pitching.

I am curious what you find, but I am now thinking that the top D3 programs may identify late bloomers and also the fact that many kids play through their Sr season where many of the top D1 kids leave after their Jr season. The number one at my son's school is a Sr.

FWIW, here are the top 30 pre-season teams according to collegiate baseball. OK guys been fun but back to work..

Rank School Name ’11 Final Record Point Totals
1. Marietta, OH 47-4 270
2. Chapman, CA 37-13 261
3. Kean, NJ 42-11 259
4. Christopher Newport, VA 39-7 255
5. SUNY-Cortland, NY 36-10 252
6. Linfield, OR 33-11 249
7. Wisc.-Whitewater 37-13 245
8. Buena Vista, IA 34-18 242
9. Eastern Connecticut St. 34-13 240
10. Alvernia, PA 38-9 237
11. Western New England, MA 42-11 236
12. Wisc.-Stevens Point 34-10 234
13. Thomas More, KY 29-9 230
14. Heidelberg, OH 36-13 228
15. Redlands, CA 30-13 225
16. Wheaton, MA 32-12 222
17. Salisbury, MD 34-14 219
18. St. Scholastica, MN 37-7 218
19. Carthage, WI 32-12 214
20. Tufts, MA 27-9-1 211
21. Southern Maine 22-19 208
22. Johns Hopkins, MD 27-15 205
23. Birmingham-Southern, AL 30-9 203
24. Piedmont, GA 32-15 200
25. Coe, IA 32-12 195
26. Adrian, MI 31-11 193
27. Rowan, NJ 31-13-1 190
28. Texas-Tyler 33-8 188
29. St. Thomas, MN 28-17 186
30. Illinois Wesleyan 28-18 183
Other Top Teams: Keystone, PA (38-12), Trinity, TX (34-13), Concordia-Chicago, IL (35-10), Bridgewater St., MA (26-17), Case Western Reserve, OH (33-15), St. John Fisher, NY (25-10), Aurora, IL (30-14), Shenandoah, VA (37-7), Brockport St., NY (30-14), Amherst, MA (25-10), Webster, MO (32-13), Randolph-Macon, VA (24-20), Wooster, OH (22-17), Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, NY (24-15), California Lutheran (25-15), Saint Joseph's, ME (32-15), George Fox, OR (23-13), Franklin, IN (30-14), North Park, IL (30-12), Misericordia, PA (30-16), Pomona-Pitzer, CA (27-12), Rose-Hulman, IN (27-16), La Verne, CA (25-14), Anna Maria, MA (26-19), Old Westbury, NY (24-20), Rutgers-Newark, NJ (24-19), William Paterson, NJ (20-17-1), Manchester, IN (28-15).

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Hawk/Swamp,

I just went and check on the number 1 at my son's program and he was not in the PG database.

My son said at their fall world series he was 92-93 topping at 96, with 25 scouts in the stands when he was pitching.

I am curious what you find, but I am now thinking that the top D3 programs may identify late bloomers and also the fact that many kids play through their Sr season where many of the top D1 kids leave after their Jr season. The number one at my son's school is a Sr.

I don'think being in the PG database really makes a difference, this time of year. There are lots of players in all programs not identified as yet, there's 6 months until the draft, a lot can happen between now and then.

quote:

I just went and check on the number 1 at my son's program and he was not in the PG database.

The #1 at my son's school is not in the database either. Neither is Chapman's #1. Both are 90+ pitchers.

I did check PG using the SCIAC 2011 first team. Only three are in the database. One with no rating, one 7.0 and one 8.0 (2064th).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawk19:

The #1 at my son's school is not in the database either. Neither is Chapman's #1. Both are 90+ pitchers.
____________________________________________________

Chapman's ace has had incredible Frosh and Soph seasons, his combined stats are something you'd see in a video game: 22-0 record, 233 K and a 2.0 era in just under 200 innings.

Chapman plays about as tough a D3 schedule as anyone in the nation, facing numerous ranked teams from around the country, and you will assume he faces the ace of most every opponent he throws against. You could be pretty certain he would be a very solid D1 pitcher, and certainly is a draft prospect, but he's putting up Mark Prior or Trevor Bauer-like numbers against the best D3 lineups.

I guess I am a real old timer.
I say that because I just don't know how the PG information, or BA, or the information from Collegiate Baseball would help us address the questions being raised and positions being outlined.
My view has been pretty firmly established over time...DIII players are not a rich source of interest for those who provide a commercial scouting product.
That is not to say DIII players, in some numbers, are lacking in DI talent. Some at DIII play/compete with a pretty high level of DI skills.
Brian Rauh of Chapman is real according to college coaches I trust...college coaches who have seen high quality DI pitchers and coached high quality DIII pitchers who did not get drafted and DIII pitchers of a high quality who got drafted and succeeded in Milb.
The pitcher who BOF referenced is getting tons of looks....and he is 95-96. That DIII has MLB scouts at games/practices beginning in September and they draft a pretty solid number for DIII level.
Personally, I have a tough time supporting the position there are any DIII's with a majority of the players being mid Level DI.
I think that team would be challenging in Appleton every year.
On the other hand, I think it would be very hard for many to appreciate the high quality/level of talent in Southern CA. which a terrific college coach like the one at Chapman can scout and recruit, even after all the DI's are done.
Similarly, it would be difficult for many to envision a DIII coach coming to the Stanford Camp since 1999 and picking DI players out of that Camp every year...many of whom have had wonderful success in the Cape, CPL, Valley, NECBL and other summer leagues...and then have them get drafted/play beyond college.
I have said many times and will repeat it here: there are some coaches at the DIII level who are with the top in teaching and coaching the game of baseball and creating a path for their players to have a vision and opportunity to succeed in baseball after college.
Following our son's junior year, he played with one of the top teams in the NECBL. Competing with and against high quality players from the SEC, ACC, Pac 10 and others, some who are now on MLB rosters, he and 2 other DIII players finished in the top 10 in hitting and many other offensive stats.
Just a few years back, UCSB of the Big West, where Michael Young and many other MLB players starred, was led offensively and on the mound by DIII transfers, who then got drafted and had/have been highly successful in Milb.
Not one of these players got any mention in commercial publications.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, how would you explain a program like Marietta's? Marietta has the most national championships of any DIII program, and while they have had their share of major leaguers over the years, their roster is hardly stacked with top D1 talent.

I think the answer lies in team depth. You can have a roster of good, solid, smart ballplayers and compete very well against teams with a few top stars. While I think most DIII teams have a few players that could compete at most collegiate levels, its the supporting cast that makes the difference.

Back to the original post - son was recruited by his DIII, which carried a roster of 45 last year and around 40 this year. Son was told that the best 9 play and the second best 9 play jv. Walk ons were encouraged, but with the understanding that if they wished to see playing time, they had to beat out the recruited players. Some players know that they will never see the field at the varsity level, but are happy being able to be part of the team and program. We had one student transfer in last year from a small school on the east coast where he had been a starter. He is a second string jv infielder at my son's school, but he loves the program and is very happy just being part of the team.

quote:

their roster is hardly stacked with top D1 talent.

Actually, I think Marietta is exactly the type of D3 program we are talking about. The original statement was 'Most of their roster could play mid major D1' not 'top D1 talent'. Marietta's team ERA is less than '2.00' and BA well over .300. It's a solid team top to bottom. Don't sell them short...

Very interesting thread that had me doing a little research while watching the Sugar Bowl. While these numbers don't mean everything I believe they can't be ignored. Players taken in 2011 MLB Draft:

All of DIII: 13
Ivy League (8) & Patriot league (5): 13

Ivy and Patriot leagues are both in bottom 1/3 of conference RPI ratings. Big 10 which in at the exact mid point in terms of RPI had 19 players drafted.

While the number of players drafted may not correlate perfectly to the skill level of the entire team I believe there is a correlation.

quote:

Originally posted by Bb4me:
Very interesting thread that had me doing a little research while watching the Sugar Bowl. While these numbers don't mean everything I believe they can't be ignored. Players taken in 2011 MLB Draft:

All of DIII: 13
Ivy League (8) & Patriot league (5): 13

Ivy and Patriot leagues are both in bottom 1/3 of conference RPI ratings. Big 10 which in at the exact mid point in terms of RPI had 19 players drafted.

While the number of players drafted may not correlate perfectly to the skill level of the entire team I believe there is a correlation.

Bb4me,
To me, this is one of those discussions which can lead to paralysis from analysis, for sure.
Personally, I think Summer Wood bat league results are a better resource on this aspect of the discussion.
Taking it to the draft, as you have done, gets to the very top level talent. However, the draft shows it is there at the DIII level.
Your numbers are correct for last year for all of DIII.
However, if we were to look further, we would find that over the last 6-7 years, DIII has averaged right around 20 per draft, another 10-15 free agent signings, and most all of those come from around 10%(30 to 40 teams) of the DIII's.
If we look at the West Region alone, there can be 7-10 players picked per year. The vast majority come from Linfield, Pomona-Pitzer, Chapman, Redlands, UT Tyler, UT Dallas, Trinity(Tx.) and Cal Lutheran. Very few come from other West Region programs.
Looked at Nationally, drafted players often come from the same programs. They are not broadly dispersed over all of DIII.

My original comments were about top D3 to mid major. Now people are comparing D3 to top D1 and drafted pros. So please exclude my previous comments from this discussion.

Most mid major D1 players are not top D1 prospects or pro prospects. Some mid majors are pro prospects.

If a kid doesn't see himself as a pro prospect there's a decent chance he'll choose a top academic D3 over a mid major if it's the superior education. He's looking at setting up his professional future outside baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
My original comments were about top D3 to mid major. Now people are comparing D3 to top D1 and drafted pros. So please exclude my previous comments from this discussion.

RJM,

This trail was started by your comment that a D3 whose identity you won't reveal has/had a roster that is comparable to a mid-major D1.

When you rejected the industry standard yardstick of PG rankings, the conversation turned to other possible indicators.

Which comments do you want excluded? Your original assertion?

My summation of the matter so far:
There are many D3 players who could play D1, and they are more likely to be in or from areas where the ratio of players to D1 schools is very high (e.g., California).

There are likely to be many individual D3 players who, because they are late bloomers or young graduates, have unrecognized D1 potential. It is possible that some of these players will "catch up" to their D1 counterparts.

It is likely that some D3 coaches are adept at identifying, recruiting, and developing players in these categories.

It is nearly certain that some D1-capable players fly beneath the PG radar, but it is also nearly certain that the high proportion of unranked players at even the top D3'a means something. Those who assert the D1-talent of D3 teams while denying the relevance of PG info about the members of those teams have not offered an alternate indicator of quality.

It is extremely unlikely that a D3 team comprised of displaced, late blooming, young graduating, and below-the-radar players could, as a group, close the gap between them and their D1 brethren while undergoing a shorter fall practice schedule, playing a shorter spring season against weaker competition, having less access to competitive summer leagues, and lacking the support and training infrastructure available at mid-major D1's.

Even the weakest D1's won 75% of their games against D2 schools in 2011. It is likely that the gap between mid-major D1's and D3's is even bigger.

The assertion that any particular D3 fields a lineup comparable to a mid-major D1 remains unsubstantiated.

quote:

The assertion that any particular D3 fields a lineup comparable to a mid-major D1 remains unsubstantiated.

Not to put words in RJM's mouth but that isn't really what he said. He said:

'Most of their roster could play mid major D1'

I take that to mean that their 2B could play 2B at a mid-major, their SS could be a 2B too. Their #1 pitcher could be a #2, their CF could be a RF, etc...

Not that their line-up is comparable to a mid-major D1 and they could compete as a team in D1. I would expect that the mid-major has players who could also play 'up' (i.e. top D1 caliber).

I think we all agree that the talent level isn't perfectly aligned. Every player at a D1 is not better than any D2 player, etc...

It's as simple as I stated. There is a usually ranked, exclusive academic D3 that draws a lot of mid major talent due to the academic reputation of the university. These are players who aren't looking to go pro. So they forego the mid majors to get a degree from this school. Knowing this, the baseball program uses the academic reputation of the university to grossly overrecruit. By reputation, chances are a player going there to play baseball won't get on the field any sooner than had he gone to the mid major.

That's it, not D3's has the same talent as mid majors. I said a specific D3 overrecruits using the scenario above. Is that enough to get your jaw off my ankle after completely twisting my words into something I didn't state?

quote:

Every player at a D1 is not better than any D2 player, etc...

Look at Tampa's roster (I haven't in a couple of years). They had several players who transfered down from major conference D1's. They didn't want to sit out a year or go JuCo. They knew they would get exposure to scouts there anyway. One kid I specifically remember was a pitcher who left Vanderbilt for lack of mound time.