Defensive timeout

I never grant time to allow a fielder to throw the ball back to the pitcher...just sayin'.

I confess that when I coached LL I was "that coach".  No I didn't coach my players to dance around while the SS held the ball in confusion, but they would take the extra base on hit, take 2nd on a walk, steal home on the throw back to the pitcher, and generally run wild around the bases against a lesser team while a snowball fight broke out. 

The fact is that I didn't intend to be that coach. I just happened to have a really good Minors team with one very fast kid who had picked up  techniques from his older brother, and two other fast kids who liked what they saw. In subsequent years in Majors I cut out some of that stuff, because opponents were better,  but I did coach the delayed steal because it was very effective and helped us win games, especially if one of our heart-of-the-lineup guys was on third with the bottom of the order at bat.

One day a much more experienced coach talked to me after a Minors game. He said, in a very non-confrontational manner, that as a little league coach he didn't coach techniques that did not translate to the large field and went on to explain his reasoning in detail.  I thought about that a lot, and it did change my approach somewhat during subsequent practices and games,  but I continued to allow my speed guys to steal home because a) I was unwilling to give up that advantage, and b) it is rarely done on the big field after 14U, but still works in some situations and c) LL baseball is a sport of its own for its players, and isn't just preparation for the real game on the big field.

In one of his last games this spring as a HS player my 2017  unintentionally validated point b) when he attempted to steal home for the first time since LL. He had never tried it the old LL way on the throw back to the pitcher.  I'm sure he'd tell you that's because it just won't work.  He had also never tried it when the pitcher went to wind up with him on third - too low percentage and not smart when you're batting #1 or #2.   What he did was break for home on a 3-1 play by the pitcher with a F5 who was a bit lazy about keeping him close.  He was safe by a step.

Thanks for your insight. I have no reason to question it but I wonder if
this is clearly defined in the Rulebook as well as you defined it or have
you gotten further clarification at a clinic? (I don't have a LL rulebook
in front of me)

How would you handle the situation we have been discussing? (runners at
first and third jumping off base to try to entice fielder to throw the ball
while fielder simply holds onto ball and watches them and attempts to get
you to call time out)?

I can't imagine that you could instruct the fielder that he has to throw
the ball back to the pitcher as it is a live ball and I have never seen an
ump been allowed to force a fielder to do something on a live ball. For the
same reason, I have a hard time imagining you tell the runners to return to
base. Would you simply allow the situation to continue or at some point
grant the time out and get the game going again? Perhaps there is (or
should be) some rule that addresses that? If not, it seems to me that the
umpire must exercise some discretion and control, no?

I know I must seem to be obstinate but this situation is certainly not
unheard of as I saw it happen myself. The umpire handled it by throwing the
complaining coach out of the game. Somehow that didn't seem like a good
solution to me. I sincerely would like to know what you would do or is
there some WRITTEN rule covering this?

This situation is obviously unique to LL. As a former player, I would
welcome the runners playing that game as I feel there would be a 80% chance
I could get one of the players with a pretty good chance for both if I
played it right (and they weren't too bright).

Regards

That is fine but doesn't address the issue at hand. Rather than repeat what
I have already written already numerous times, please read my other posts.

inquiring minds want to know (smile)

Tulo posted:

That is fine but doesn't address the issue at hand. Rather than repeat what
I have already written already numerous times, please read my other posts.

inquiring minds want to know (smile)

Huh?

It was interesting to go back and read this post from 2008.  I won't pretend to say I remember this particular exchange but its clear most of this issue was a result of a testy exchange between an umpire and a coach and no so much about the actual processes of requesting and granting time out.  

As this is a HS site, our responses are indicative of the current accepted practices,  umpire training materials , Umpire mechanics manuals and Umpire procedure manuals.  It is not uncommon for youth coaches to not have experience with or even exposure to these resources.

The roster of umpires who responded to that original post were/are highly experienced umpires who have done HS/ College/ and a couple distinguished MiLB umpires. All had had verifiable Professional instruction either through the accepted MLB schools or clinics. We were very fortunate to be able to tap into that wealth of knowledge.

As to calling and granting timeout.....   

A Player or Coach can request time out any time they want. Only the Umpire can grant it. In doing so the Umpire decides if it is appropriate to grant one. In determining if time out should be granted the Umpire takes in account many rule supported game situations.  Specifically an Umpires role is to see that neither team gains an advantage not intended by the rules

The game in question here was youth ball game of about 11-12 year old players. It is very common at that level for time out to be granted quite liberally for instructive purposes or game management.  In the specific case of a youth fielder calling time out to get the ball back into the pitcher, that would not be granted at higher levels.

Let me quote from the NFHS Umpire manual.

"Don’t overdo the time-outs. Let them play unless there is a valid reason for calling time. Don’t call time too quickly when it would prevent the completion of play. Don’t grant a player’s request for time unless he has a bona fide reason. For instance, if a relay man wants time so he can throw the ball to the pitcher, don’t grant it. The offense has a right to any error made on the throw"

Baseball is a game of continous action, and it is not part of the game for Umpires to assist in freezing the runners........that would be granting the defense an advantage not intended by the rules regarding calling time out.

Calling time out for a runner to get up safely is not acceptable above kid ball. Players learn quickly how to keep their hand on the base while putting their foot on the base and stand up. (climbing the ladder).  However if it becomes shenanigans of who holds a glove on the runner the longest, a quick timeout settles that........after 13, those actions are virtually absent from competitive baseball.

I personally will not allow either team to delay the game by playing cat and mouse games with the ball. If it further delays the game a quick timeout when action is relaxed ( a common umpire manual term) quickly gets the game back on track.

If a player gets a mouthful of dirt or pants full after a slide......of course grant all reasonable requests.  

Both situations ( OP and Tulos) seem to stem from the negative interaction between coach and umpire. That could have been avoided. It does seem to occur more  when the youth league players and coaches move up to the more competitive levels. What is acceptable at 11-12 rec league will not be acceptable in HS baseball governed under NFHS rules.

 

Thanks for your reply.

I will confess that I also employed the delayed steal in LL (successfully
in a regional all star game) when I coached. Perhaps I am wrong but I see
that as somewhat different situation as the players at the 11 and 12 year
all star levels should be able to control the runners. LL all star games
are a different animal and I am more in favor of the "anything goes"
approach. I never employed the "jumping on and off the base" tactic
probably (1.) out of respect for the game (I think it looks ridiculous) and
(2.) it isn't a tactic that would likely work at the all star level.

It is a tough question but my answer is that the umps (and coaches) have to
use common sense and not lose sight of the skill level of the kids and why
we are all there..Despite the rule books, there is still (especially at the
lower levels) plenty of room for discretion on the part of the umps (and
coaches). That's why 2 umps can know the rules equally well and yet one
might be better than the other.


Now I expect that I will be (perhaps rightfully) called to task for
inconsistency and being hypocritical. At the all star level I take the
"anything goes" approach. During the regular season (where you are likely
to have a much lower caliber of player), not so much. Hell, if I were
umping, I might even change my approach from game to game depending on how
those particular kids were handling it.

My question addressed a very specific (and I don't think that uncommon)
situation where the game was stalled because of coaching tactics and player
skill level.

I will now put on my helmet, duck in my foxhole and await the mortars
likely to be tossed at me (been there, done that).

Although you may disagree, I think this discussion is a valid one and I am
happy to see some well thought out answers (and admissions). At least I am
enjoying it (smile). Umpiring is a tough and thankless job. Many times it
is damned if you do or don't. All I ask is that they (and the coaches) uses
common sense for the benefit of the kids and game. They are bound to make
someone unhappy but that is the nature of the job. (think heat and kitchen).

PS. I still can't recall an ump denying timeout to a fielder when he has
the situation under control (the term used here seems to be "relaxed"
although I confess to never having heard that before. Is that term used in
rule books now?).
PPS. To start a somewhat different topic, I'd be curious to know if the
folks here are in favor of a definitive strike zone or whether they like
the ump giving the pitcher strikes that are slightly outside the zone if he
can hit that spot consistently (like they used to do with Glavin, Smoltz,
and Maddox)? ( Sorry, I have been accused once or twice of sh**t stirring.
Just my nature, I guess. I probably need to get a life, huh?)

Found this on line.  From the LL rule book.  Does not mention the batter, but I have yet to see a catcher ready to receive and a pitcher ready to pitch without a batter in the box ... but I guess it could happen....

7.13 - Little League (Majors) and Minor League: When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher’s plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher’s box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter

As for the strike zone ... I'll refer you to another thread on this site ... that topic was covered extensively.

 

Thanks for your reply. You can ump my games anytime.

I did learn something from you. Perhaps I haven't been paying enough
attention but I am surprised to learn that a player who has just slid into
a base (at any level) is not automatically granted time out if he requests
it. I am sure you are right. I will watch more closely in the future.

Thanks again.

PS. Being new here I probably am out of line talking about various levels
of ball. I completely missed that this is a hs forum...as the kids say, my
bad.

If you wish to start new topics, please do so vice asking in a current one.

I will caution you (based on your parenthetical comment) that topics for the sake of bashing umpires or simply arguing are not welcome here. 

thanks

Biting my tongue...hard.

There's a world of difference in the game management skills of a seasoned umpire as opposed to one learning the ropes in a LL rec game. The adage of if I knew then what I know now applies quite nicely too. If the dancing had occurred in a game I was umpiring when I was first starting out, I can say without a doubt I'd be hard pressed to do what I'd do now.  The phrase "let's play baseball" comes to mind as does, coach remember the sportsmanship talk we had before the game?  I'm sure the score would come into play, as would the inning, and situation.  There's perhaps a few other ways to send a message to a coach that's "over the top". Suffice to say, you'll know it when you see it.

Great answer (among a few others). Thank you.


Sent from Tom Myslik IPhone

> On Jun 9, 2017, at 5:16 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>
>

Tulo, 

I've umpired high school baseball in multiple states and can assure you that the "around here" where umpires don't grant time outs to facilitate throws to the mound includes a lot of territory.

Unnecessary time outs add unnecessary minutes to games. They can affect the fairness of competition. And they retard the development and game awareness of players. Good umpires discourage them the same way we require batters to stay in the box when they want to wander off to slow things down and gain an edge.

At the high school level, the offense and defense are expected to protect themselves or the ball from the conclusion of one play's action until the attainment of what we call relaxed action, which is a state where the live ball is under control and neither team is likely to try any surprise funny business because the other team would easily thwart it.

Teams are expected to be able to return the ball to the mound without needing a flag of truce to accomplish the job. If they can't manage the job without throwing it away or getting startled by dancing base runners, I won't help them get it done. 

When I'm presented with a request for a time out whose need isn't readily obvious, the factors I consider include:

--Whether the time out is intended to facilitate a baseball action that should be accomplished without the aid of a time out or a non-baseball action.  Baseball actions include regaining one's feet after sliding into a base and returning the ball to the mound. Non-baseball actions include shaking the dirt out of one's pants, delivering protective batting gear to a coach, and meeting on the mound to discuss strategy.  I will generally grant time for appropriate non-baseball actions, but only after the baseball action has been completed.

--Whether either team might gain an advantage from the time out. The very act of requesting a time out for a baseball action tells me the team thinks the time out would benefit them. 

--Whether the non-baseball action can be accomplished without a time out. I've lost count of the times catchers requested time to visit the mound with no runners on base and I assured them the batter is unlikely to steal first base.

Finally, as one of my brethren pointed out, baseball is a continuous action game. The ball is live except when there's a good reason for it not to be live. 

I've had conversations on this subject with lots of coaches. My usual explanation is something along the lines of, "Coach, at this level, the defense needs to get to ball back to the mound to show me the play is really over before I can grant them time." It's never been a big deal. Some mild surprise, but no outrage.

I can understand what you are saying. I personally never remember not being
granted time out as a shortstop. That could be due to a number reasons. 1.
times have changed and the game is more sensitive to time of play. 2. I
never encountered an umpire who cared. 3. I never abused my time out
requests. 4. I suffer from CRS disease (can't remember sh**t).

My more important question was the "dancing" issue in the lower level
leagues. A number of folks gave me the answer I felt was proper and a
number gave me other answers.

I am satisfied that the topic has been discussed sufficiently. I never
expected unanimity. I think (hope) that some of the less experienced umps
may have learned something. Maybe even some of the older ones did too.
There were some great answers IMO.

Oh, and I loved your "stealing first" comment.

You guys realize the SS can run the ball to the pitcher if the runners are dancing off the bases?  Running then handing off the ball eliminates a bad throw without calling time.

Last time I checked throwing and catching are slightly important skills needed to play baseball.  It seems to me that "U small digit number ages" would be the best time to teach this even if it means making bad throws until they learn.

Last time I checked baseball careers - playing, coaching and umpiring - have never ended over trying to make this play.

I agree with the umpires on here.  Don't call time just to call time to help out the defense.

 As age and skill level increases this play is NEVER an issue. In fact it would almost certainly lead to at least one out and therefore dancing is not done by the baserunners. 

If a coach of the 8/9 even 10 age players want to make a farce of the game, that is his prerogative, I guess. 

So which are you suggesting? ...running the ball back to the pitcher or having him throw it back "even if he makes a bad throw"? Some umps here say that the runners must return to the bases when the pitcher has the ball in the area of the mound. Others say he must toe the rubber. Which is it, please? Is there a rule citing this or is it up to the individual ump?This question is not relevant at the higher levels but certainly may be at the lower with your solution.

Some umps  (the ones I agree with) seem to think that the "dancing" tactic is ridiculous and "unbaseball-like" and should be discouraged by one means or another. If the ss (or defensive coach) decides NOT to do either of your solutions and simply hold the ball and watch the idiocy until a. the runners get tired of dancing b. the runners (and offensive coach) gets tired of  looking ridiculous, what would you do? (It is the tactic I might chose in order to embarrass the opposing coach or ump for allowing this tactic). You certainly must agree that you can't force the ss to either throw or walk the ball back to the pitcher while time is not called. How long would you let the charade go on?

So my respectful questions are: 1. would you allow the dance to go on until nightfall? 2. since the runners are not attempting to advance (simply confuse) when is the play "settled"? 3. when are the runners obligated to return to the bases? 4. You say you agree with the umps but which ones? They have voiced different opinions. 

The point is that there is really no black and white rule for this situation and I think if the offensive coach is not going to use common sense then the ump must. I would be embarrassed to be the ump who didn't take charge so that we could "play ball". Wouldn't you be?

Rules are a guideline but the umps' (and coaches) judgement and common sense is another integral part of a well played game, no? With all due respect, sometimes folks can't see "the game for the rules". If the coaches are not bright (or experienced)enough to see what they are truly there for and the ump doesn't remind them then I think the ump is guilty of letting the inmates run the asylum.

All in my opinion course. I hope I am not accused of "umpire baiting" (which I didn't realize I could do off the field in a discussion forum).

Regards

PS. My favorite answer if the coach can't figure it out for himself? "Let's play ball" with a look of disgust toward the offending coach. That, IMO, would handle the situation and the coach while the ump would stay basically invisible (as he should).

 

 

 

Tulo posted:

Rules are a guideline but the umps' (and coaches) judgement and common sense is another integral part of a well played game, no? With all due respect, sometimes folks can't see "the game for the rules". If the coaches are not bright (or experienced)enough to see what they are truly there for and the ump doesn't remind them then I think the ump is guilty of letting the inmates run the asylum. 

It is not my job to tell or teach the coach how to coach.

Tulo you are putting way too much effort into this just to say you are right.  Look I'm going to spend a lot of time in practice teaching throwing and catching.  I'm going to put my best guys up the middle so throwing and catching shouldn't be much of an issue.  If I'm playing against a bush league team who wants to do stuff like dancing I'll tell my SS to run it in to a point where he feels comfortable making a throw to the pitcher.  I don't care what the umpire says, thinks or do in this situation.  I know if my pitcher is on the mound with the ball then we are getting ready to play ball which is the goal of the game.  If my kids make a mistake and throw the ball away then I have a ready made practice plan for the next day on what we need to do to get better.  It's not the end of the world if we lose that game on an error at that age.  I'm looking big picture and preparing them for further down the road.  If  some slapdick coach wants to teach his guys to play games then it's on him.  I'm not going to get caught up in those stupid games.

I can't argue with that attitude. It is a mature way to handle it.
We all want to be right but it is a bit more than that.

This is a forum for discussion and learning. The game is too good for some
"slapdick" to make a mockery of it or for an umpire to allow them to. I
think the discussion may have opened some eyes and some folks (coaches and
umpires) may think twice the next time it happens.

I congratulate you on being able to simply know that it is "on him".
I ,OTOH, think there is some value to waking the offending parties up to
their actions (especially in a discussion forum) and to hopefully have
them change their ways in the future.

So not only do I want to be right, I want to change the world. (smile)

Regards

PS There have been some very good answers here. Yours is one of them.

Thank you and this site is awesome when it comes to discussing baseball.  You won't find any place better.  I do understand where you're coming from because it is frustrating when you're going against a bush league coach.  I'm a high school coach and it happens at my level.  There's nothing more I want to do than grab him by the shirt and tell him how wrong he is and to stop making a travesty of the game because his kids deserve better.  But nobody bestowed that upon me.  Nobody came up and gave me a sheriff's badge that says "protector of the integrity of the game".  I have a lane and I'm going to stay in it.  What I can do is beat the h**l out of his team and maybe send that message.  I can control that but I have no say in what he does no matter how bad I want to.  This is a valuable lesson you can teach your kids - there are idiots out there and you can't convince them they are idiots because they are idiots.

Hope you stick around and enjoy the discussions on here.

coach2709 posted:

Nobody came up and gave me a sheriff's badge that says "protector of the integrity of the game".  

And I will add that despite what many people may think, umpires don't have that, either...and the umpires that do think that are the ones that find themselves in trouble pretty quickly.

Our job is not to make the game fair. It's to ensure the game is played in accordance with the rules and that neither side gains an advantage or is put at a disadvantage not intended by those rules. Sometimes, that can be very unfair. 

Doing a 9U District game last night.  Kid slides into 2nd.  Ball no where near the bag (he only slid because coach yelling "get down"... that can start a whole other conversation).  Base runner raises hand and calls time.  I simply reply "you don't need it"... kid smiles - game goes on.