Look at Greg Maddux here...he is certainly not "pushing off" to go to the plate. It's a controlled fall, at least with him.
www.baseball-pitching-tips.com/gregmaddux.html
Yes and you can see that when he gets out over the stride leg he actually uses the post leg to counter balance as he cranks on the ball. It is to stabalize the lower half so he can get max leverage out of his upper body and arm.
pro97 How do people throw 90 plus mph on flat ground?
I just now saw you folks last two posts here. Do you see greg maddux flex his posting leg knee as his lead leg comes down from the apex? Can you see how his posting leg knee is inside of his posting leg foot with that knee bend? That knee bend is him loading the posting leg for a later push but more then that it creates a push back towards second base on his posting leg foot by lowering his center of gravity. The knee bend creates a much more forceful push then is created by gliding out on a straight posting leg. The greater the angle from the foot to the knee (THE FURTHER INSIDE OF THE FOOT THE KNEE GETS) as he strides out the greater the push back against his posting leg foot.
If you watch vary closely and you may need slow mo to catch it but if you watch close you will also see that as his lead leg turns to the plate his posting leg ankle starts to straighten (in fact his posting leg straightens as well)as his knee starts to turn down and his heal starts to turn up. That is a clear push in fact if you slow it down enough you will find that there is a point just before foot plant where just the side of his posting leg foot (where his big toe is) is in contact with the ground while his lead leg has not yet landed. Try to get to that position without a push.
Try this. Stand flat footed with your head straight over your belly button and your legs far enough apart so that your knees are slightly inside of your feet (shoulder width or a bit more). Now with both of your knees straight pick up one of your feet just a few inches off of the ground and you will find that you are being slightly pushed towards the foot that you picked up. Now then go back to your starting position and this time bend one of your knees while still keeping that knee inside of your foot. Now pick up the foot with the straight knee a couple of inches and you will find that you are being pushed towards the foot that you picked up much more forcefully. That folks is a push. A right forceful one too if you do it as well as Maddux does.
If you are a pitcher you need to get a feel for that push that you can see Maddux performing. If done correctly in many cases the second push from the posting leg ankle, Leg srtraightening as the knee turns down and the heal up will occur naturally. Just work with the feel.
If you watch vary closely and you may need slow mo to catch it but if you watch close you will also see that as his lead leg turns to the plate his posting leg ankle starts to straighten (in fact his posting leg straightens as well)as his knee starts to turn down and his heal starts to turn up. That is a clear push in fact if you slow it down enough you will find that there is a point just before foot plant where just the side of his posting leg foot (where his big toe is) is in contact with the ground while his lead leg has not yet landed. Try to get to that position without a push.
Try this. Stand flat footed with your head straight over your belly button and your legs far enough apart so that your knees are slightly inside of your feet (shoulder width or a bit more). Now with both of your knees straight pick up one of your feet just a few inches off of the ground and you will find that you are being slightly pushed towards the foot that you picked up. Now then go back to your starting position and this time bend one of your knees while still keeping that knee inside of your foot. Now pick up the foot with the straight knee a couple of inches and you will find that you are being pushed towards the foot that you picked up much more forcefully. That folks is a push. A right forceful one too if you do it as well as Maddux does.
If you are a pitcher you need to get a feel for that push that you can see Maddux performing. If done correctly in many cases the second push from the posting leg ankle, Leg srtraightening as the knee turns down and the heal up will occur naturally. Just work with the feel.
Sorry about the disagreement pro97 and bobbleheaddoll I don't mean to be argumentative.
Your right to put your opinion out there. It just contradicts everything that I have learned from MLB coaches, House included.
You contend that you can't find a P guru that emphasis's push off. We just explained why. You confuse normal push if I have to as push off. Normal push is supporting your weight as you go forward.
I can guarantee that MLB coaches have heard all the debates and theories and non that I have ever met teach emphasizing push off the rubber.
Most the 90+ pitchers I have seen throw 2-3 MPH slower on flat ground with a rubber.
You contend that you can't find a P guru that emphasis's push off. We just explained why. You confuse normal push if I have to as push off. Normal push is supporting your weight as you go forward.
I can guarantee that MLB coaches have heard all the debates and theories and non that I have ever met teach emphasizing push off the rubber.
Most the 90+ pitchers I have seen throw 2-3 MPH slower on flat ground with a rubber.
Bobble- I don't like the term "push off" either as that would mean losing contact with the rubber. That would result in lack of good use of ground forces.
That said, the lower body is doing a heck of a lot more than supporting your weight as you move forward. There is ABSOLUTE leg drive in power pitchers. They are pelvic loading with their front leg on their lift and back leg (foot, ankle, knee, thigh, and glute) at the apex of the lift. It almost creates a scissors effect with the knees.
I live in an area where I'm fortunate to be around some guys that are known as some of the best pitching minds in the game. One of them was just a feature speaker at the ABCA convention last week. Every one of these guys emphasizes proper use of legs and core- which is substantial.
That said, the lower body is doing a heck of a lot more than supporting your weight as you move forward. There is ABSOLUTE leg drive in power pitchers. They are pelvic loading with their front leg on their lift and back leg (foot, ankle, knee, thigh, and glute) at the apex of the lift. It almost creates a scissors effect with the knees.
I live in an area where I'm fortunate to be around some guys that are known as some of the best pitching minds in the game. One of them was just a feature speaker at the ABCA convention last week. Every one of these guys emphasizes proper use of legs and core- which is substantial.
Proper use of legs is important but he didn't say push off and that is what we are talking about. jwest said that he didn't agree with the P gurus because they didn't emphasize puishing off.
In hard ball both legs have important functions .
In hard ball both legs have important functions .
bobble
You're mistaken; I said none of the gurus explain the proper use of the legs, House included. If House now has an explanation of the proper use of legs I would be glad to hear it.
Putting the word PUSH aside (I did not say "push off")what is your oppinion of my explanation of the use of the legs above? I don't want to get tied up on one word so take the whole explanation and let me know if you think the legs work as stated above.
Did you check my explanation of the use of the legs above against slow mo video or frame by frame. If not for push what purpose does the bend in the posting leg knee serve?
You're mistaken; I said none of the gurus explain the proper use of the legs, House included. If House now has an explanation of the proper use of legs I would be glad to hear it.
Putting the word PUSH aside (I did not say "push off")what is your oppinion of my explanation of the use of the legs above? I don't want to get tied up on one word so take the whole explanation and let me know if you think the legs work as stated above.
Did you check my explanation of the use of the legs above against slow mo video or frame by frame. If not for push what purpose does the bend in the posting leg knee serve?
ncball,
You think the foot should stay in contact with the rubber throughout? Huh?
Find me a clip of one MLB guy who does that!
You think the foot should stay in contact with the rubber throughout? Huh?
Find me a clip of one MLB guy who does that!
Midlo- Of course not. I do want them to stay stacked and stay connected down the drive line to the plate to use ground forces properly. Of course it will come off. Same is true when hitting. Very little weight on the back foot at contact.
I have no idea what your words mean.
You decried someone coming off the rubber, then say it's OK to come off.
You want "them" (who? what?) to "stay stacked", which is not a term I've heard used with respect to pitching before.
You want to "use ground forces properly"? Are we pitching or invading somewhere? As a matter of physics, the ground has static inertia, but it exerts no force. The pitcher exerts some force upon/against the ground. Is that what you mean?
This is beginning to sound like some of our hitting threads. We slaughter the English language so much, no player could ever in a million years have any idea what we're trying to ask them to do. I sure don't.
You decried someone coming off the rubber, then say it's OK to come off.
You want "them" (who? what?) to "stay stacked", which is not a term I've heard used with respect to pitching before.
You want to "use ground forces properly"? Are we pitching or invading somewhere? As a matter of physics, the ground has static inertia, but it exerts no force. The pitcher exerts some force upon/against the ground. Is that what you mean?
This is beginning to sound like some of our hitting threads. We slaughter the English language so much, no player could ever in a million years have any idea what we're trying to ask them to do. I sure don't.
Midlo- I want to drive down the hill (pushing off the ground) as long as I can. Once I can't go any farther at foot plant, the energy from the front side will pull the back foot off. Regarding stacked, I don't want to drift- I want good balance. How's that?
FYI- I get where you are coming from regarding the hitting threads. I am guilty as charged on that one. I don't like it either. That said, I do dumb it down when working with my guys for the last 20+ years. I was using "stacked" and "ground forces" because those ARE terms that are used when talking about pitching with other coaches. My guess is that you are more familiar than you are letting on.
FYI- I get where you are coming from regarding the hitting threads. I am guilty as charged on that one. I don't like it either. That said, I do dumb it down when working with my guys for the last 20+ years. I was using "stacked" and "ground forces" because those ARE terms that are used when talking about pitching with other coaches. My guess is that you are more familiar than you are letting on.
quote:Originally posted by jwest:
Sorry about the disagreement pro97 and bobbleheaddoll I don't mean to be argumentative.
No disagreement. I should have expounded on my comment. I define "pushing off" as almost jumping to the plate and consciously thinking of pushing off the mound to the target. "Controlled fall" makes it sound like I believe the post leg is just inactive, which is not what I think at all; so poor choice of words I admit. I think where we got off track was in our definitions of a "push." Although I know the back leg is active, I don't believe it's a conscious effort to powerfully "push" off of the rubber. Not sure if that's what you think or not. I agree that keeping your knee inside the ball of your post leg foot will create a push in the opposite direction. Physically that's where your weight will go. Overall, in regards to your view of what happens...I've heard worse explanations. good discussion though
How about the term "controlled drive?"
I don't know if one word or phrase is going to do the job without causing some confusion to some one. Look at all of the confusion my use of the word "push" caused; and yet Schilling after his bloody sock incident stated he had to be able to "push" with his ankle. One person I know likes to think of it as riding the leg.
Pro97 that is a good explanation.
Two quick points...
1. The degree of "push" will vary from pitcher to pitcher. I'm sure some pitchers push more than others.
2. Expecting to define pitching mechanics with one or two words is like asking Helen Keller to hit a fastball. Chances are...it can't be done.
Intelligent conversation though.
1. The degree of "push" will vary from pitcher to pitcher. I'm sure some pitchers push more than others.
2. Expecting to define pitching mechanics with one or two words is like asking Helen Keller to hit a fastball. Chances are...it can't be done.
Intelligent conversation though.
