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pro97-

quote:
I would also note that you cannot move towards the plate as the knee bends without a push.

quote:
sure you can...it's called gravity

Correct. Classic pitcher Nolan Ryan is a good example to view. During his windup, he starts his momentum and controls his CG toward the plate very early in his motion...long before his sit/flex.

Last edited by cap_n
jwest-

Okay if you want to get real technical. But your previous post eludes to a pitcher needing to literally push in order to go toward the target...not so. A simple shift in CG is all that's needed to get the torso going toward the target...in Ryan's case it's established momentum. The pushing you're talking about is a shear force of some percent of body weight in the direction of the pitch with the push-off leg. As soon as the body's CG passes over the posting foot, the force the body exerts straight down on the ground (due to gravity) begins to decrease. And to prevent from landing too soon, the post leg pushes the body toward the target to some desired stride length. Greater or lesser shear forces (pushes) are required for various reasons.

Cap your one statement is the 1st one I agree with.
It is absurd to say there is no push just as it is to say their is no push off the back foot when walking. It is the emphasis on pushing off that is the issue. Jwest said no instructors emphasize pushing off. That is because it does confuse the mechanics and hinder teaching them. Isn't that why you don't teach it ?
Linsecnm is a rare pitcher who has the speed and athletic ability to stride at 120% of his height and I would not use him as an example of how to pitch to the young pitcher. If there was no lateral pressure on the back foot you would fall on your derrier.
Obviously Tall and Fall doesnt mean you simply allow your body wieght to carry you forward.
The question is do you push when you throw a change up and off speeds any more or less than a FB?.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
bobblehead- imo, leg drive and arm action should not change from pitch to pitch. I know some people are taught that and I disagree based on my work with all of the people i have been fortunate to listen to (a variety of D1 college and mlb pitching coaches) as well as applying it to all the pitchers we have in our program. Every pitch should be thrown with fastball intent. What changes the speed of the ball is the grip and pressure on the ball. You throw the back part of the ball for a fastball- thus the most energy forward. You throw the high, inside part of the ball for a change. You throw the front of the ball for a 12-6. You throw the high, outside part of the ball for a slider-slurve, etc. Your fingers "slip" off the sides of the ball for a splitter.

It comes down to grip (placement in hand, firmness, and placement on ball) which changes the energy- which changes the velocity.

I will acknowledge that tall and fall is taught by reputable pitching coaches. That said, the legs are the strongest part of your body. The proper sequential use of your legs and core are crucial to velocity. I'm not talking about drop and drive which hurts "down plane". It's been my observation that tall and fall guys don't throw as hard as guys who use their legs properly. I just don't understand, everything being equal, why you would not want to throw harder.
quote:
I just don't understand, everything being equal, why you would not want to throw harder.


I see pitching as more than throwing hard. If you empasize push off, you infact can hurt the skill of pitching. That is why instructors usually don't push pushing off.
Most of the hard throwers at an early age are no longer pitching. I have seen 16 YO throwing 92 mph. There legs weren't developed all that much. The coach was a 15 year vet with Detroit. His 16 yo son was at 90 mph. They were srawny kids who had been taught well and played for an Elite team called the Detroit Cobras. To look at them you would think they couldn't break a pane of glass.
As I have said tall and fall doesen't mean allowing gravity to do all the work. A great % of the effort is when you are out over your stide leg and throwing on a downward plane.
QBs also don't pushoff and they throw a much haevier ball.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
BobbleheadDoll-

quote:
Cap not an instructor but a current pro P scout who instructs during the off season. At the sessions he broke down the mechanics into 4 basic elements . I videoed it and he clearly emphasized "No Pushing Off"
....and taken at face value which we all do when we go to these seminars or buy systems, is an absurd piece of advice to sell. We as students of instruction like to follow instruction to the nth degree to make certain we don't fail our kids.

I am not as nurturing as that. I tend to let my son learn as I learn with him. The scout was kind enough to allow me to video the 4 lessons and I got to know him through the years. The money wasn't his motivation. He loved BB and teaching kids on the side during the off season. The 1st time I talked to him was as he was boarding a plane to attend spring training. He was actually walking down the corredor to the plane. He didn't own the camp nor was it expensive. $100 for 4 lessons. At the time I had no idea my son wanted to play college ball.
The only problem I have with guys like Mills and Marshall is they feed off people insecreties. The info and reasonable cost instruction is out there. There are no magical pills and I believe velocity is more about genetics. With the basics you will max what you have in the tank. My son takes after his Moms side of the family and unfortunately he may not have great genetics to devel op 90+ but I do think he is capable of high 80s and possibly 90.
There are more important things than push off and that should not be emphasizes..
I don't see how telling a kid to push off the rubber will screw up their mechanics. If it is an effective cue to achieve a result....what is the problem?

I also can't understand how "tall and fall" and "drop and drive" can be used to describe the complex movements involved in throwing a baseball.

How about "tall and drive"
bobblehead- I never said "push off". I said leg drive. I also would tell you that every great pitching coach I've been around always stresses "intent" on throwing hard as well as pelvic loading and driving down the hill. That is key! We also stress long toss as far as you can and they are all on a power/explosion program that is similar to the Ron Wolforth program. I've got 10 guys minimum in my program right now who touch 90 and not one guy would be categorized a tall and fall guy. They just don't throw hard- they are considered some of the top prospects in the country.

My point is this- As you quoted me as sayimg "all things being equal", I understand there's alot more to pitching than velocity. That said, it's the absolute first requisite to get to the next level. Guys that throw hard can get away with "mistake" pitches where guys who don't get killed when they make a mistake. Simple as that.

Now, once you make it, it becomes fourth in priority after location, change of speeds, and movement. Finally, I don't buy the genetics things. I don't believe in limiting yourself and settling.
No one said limiting yourself because of genetics. You try to develop what you can. I also say walk before you run. Laerning great mechanics is the 1st prioity and I am fully aware of all the steps to develop a pitcher. My son has added 25lbs of muscle and has gained 5mph in 3 years on his velocity. His new coaches have messed with his mechanics and he dropped 3 mph until I corrected the problems. He also had shoulder pain for the 1st time in his life. Pain is gone and he had a great fall. One of the changes they made was to try and get him to push off harder. They also had him drop his elbow and falling off to the side on finish. His teammates who never saw him until last year were amazed at the change. His new coach who is a P coach and has a professionl P camp loves his mechanics.
Noone is more aware of how hard you have to throw to move beyond college. That has never been our goal. Too aware of the odds of success of being an everyday player. He has been carded by several MLB teams since he was 16. Always about velocity. He is actually close to what they want out of a tall LHP.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but in that clip, Lincecum most assuredly does NOT push off the rubber.

If you will watch carefully, you will see that in fact his pivot foot has completely disengaged the rubber before the explosive action to the plate begins.

What you are mistaking for push is actually the pivoting action that occurs when the hip/trunk area rotates, forcing the foot to rotate as well because, don't you know, "the hip bone's connected to the thigh bone" etc. In Lincecum, this appearance is exaggerated because of his unusually pronounced front-side leap towards the plate -- what BBD might be referring to as lunging.

With some pitchers this trunk rotation will manifest in a grinding of the pivot shoe's toe, which is why they make pitcher's toe caps. With others (Pedro Martinez comes to mind), the pitcher works so hard on the rotation that his foot is well into the air and thus he could throw all year with one pair of shoes and no cap and never have a problem. Next time you see Pedro in action, watch him just play catch or warm up and see how he works on exaggerating this action so as to make it happen automatically once the game is underway.

I personally have experience working with/ developing several upper 80's to 90+ pitchers through their teen years. I specifically taught them not to push off, or at least, not to think about pushing off, but simply to focus on pivoting/rotating and to let that foot do what it needed for the hip/trunk to come around. My prized pupil has on occasion reached 100 mph and sits in the 95-96 range. Whoever it was who suggested above that focusing on rotation (per Mills) to the exclusion of pushing would cap a player's potential velocity is in denial, too wedded to his own theories to see what's right in front of him.

The fact is that most MLB pitchers in our current era emphasize rotation over pushing. Just record a few games and use your slo-mo feature and see for yourself. In most cases, the pivot foot is away from the rubber and the leg relaxed well before the delivery explosion.

There are many mechanics problems that often emanate from pushing off. First, the lower body often gets too far out in front of the upper body, so that leverage is lost and the arm drags instead of whipping. That costs in both speed and control, and in addition, it makes it very hard to get on top of your off-speed pitches. A pitcher has to be very strong indeed and has to work very hard to make this work. That's not to say it can't be done (see Tom Seaver, the classic drop/drive guy), but in my experience it is very hard to teach to a young developing player.

Secondly, that maximum effort approach tends to lead to earlier fatigue during outings. Maybe Seaver could handle it, but don't look for many teenagers to throw you complete games with this approach.

Third, once the pivot leg is extended following push, it is in a position that is very hard to rotate. Just as a matter of physics and physiology, it is easier to rotate when the leg is bent or flexed (more compact and relaxed) than when it is stiff and extended. If you have a kid who is suffering arm drag from pushing off, and then he doesn't rotate well either, good luck getting him to throw strikes at any speed. And stay out of the arm-side batter's box if you value your life, because that's where a lot of his pitches are going to end up.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
cap-n

I don't agree about all that is needed is a shift in the CG to get started to the plate. There needs to be a constant force on the posting foot to propel forward. The posting leg knee MUST be inside of the ankle to generate the push and the knee has to move towards the plate as the weight is shifted towards the instep of the foot to generate the force that is needed to keep enough forward momentum to prevent the pitcher from landing. That is; until he pushes with his posting leg ankle (push #2).

Some times words can get us mixed up though and I know of another who likes to describe it as riding his leg out. And when he goes more forcefully towards the plate he calls it riding his leg harder. Either way it equals backward force on the posting foot.

Either way we describe it that is only used until the push with the ankle. And lets not forget the posting leg knee flex which lowers the CG and Gets the pitchers weight back. Try shifting your weight forward while your hips are ahead without a good force back (push) on your posting foot.
Midlo Dad-

I usually follow and agree with a lot what you write...but my observations see 5'9" Lincicum with a boost of tempo (leap) (and leaving the ground at the end of his post leg stretch) that put's him out to what I believe is 113% of his body height. I can't see any other physical movement that would allow that to happen.

jwest
quote:
The posting leg knee MUST be inside of the ankle to generate the push
This posture needs further explanation/definition. If you're saying that as the torso goes toward the target, the shin starts leaning in the direction of the target, and with the posting foot stationary, then yes, the knee will have no choice but to be "inside" the ankle.


My continuing participation in this thread was initiated by BobbleheadDoll supporting a statement by a pro instructor who says there is no push in the pitching motion. If you tell a student the pro coach says there is no push in your pitching motion, then that student is going to do everything possible not to push. This is a very poor way to teach and a damaging statement to the unknowing student/parent. As well, the article I linked to establishes a direct increase in wrist speed with an increase in the shear force of the posting foot.

Now.....do you want to know what I really think? Wink


jwest- Good post. That back foot turns in as does the knee, etc. It's all the kinetic chain working sequentially. Oh btw, that's how it works in hitting as well.

quote:
Originally posted by jwest:
cap-n

I don't agree about all that is needed is a shift in the CG to get started to the plate. There needs to be a constant force on the posting foot to propel forward. The posting leg knee MUST be inside of the ankle to generate the push and the knee has to move towards the plate as the weight is shifted towards the instep of the foot to generate the force that is needed to keep enough forward momentum to prevent the pitcher from landing. That is; until he pushes with his posting leg ankle (push #2).

Some times words can get us mixed up though and I know of another who likes to describe it as riding his leg out. And when he goes more forcefully towards the plate he calls it riding his leg harder. Either way it equals backward force on the posting foot.

Either way we describe it that is only used until the push with the ankle. And lets not forget the posting leg knee flex which lowers the CG and Gets the pitchers weight back. Try shifting your weight forward while your hips are ahead without a good force back (push) on your posting foot.
cap-n

the posting leg knee must not be directly over the posting leg foot as the pitcher reaches the height of his leg kick; to do so prevents forward momentum. Instead the knee must be inside (closer to the target) then the foot. With the leg in that position there is push on the posting leg foot and as the pitcher moves further toward the target the knee goes further inside of the foot progresivly increasing the push on the posting foot. This occurs until the pitcher pushes with his posting foot ankle by straightening it or pointing his posting foot toes as his knee turns down and the posting foot heal turns up as the hips start to open just prior to foot plant.
I have been dropping in on this discussion, and the one about the Jaeger Long Toss. I hope this adds to the healthy debate.

Personally, you can put me in the "House/NPA" camp. Follow this link to an article currently on the NPA site that contains an illustration of the NPA Biomechanical Efficiency Model with a timeline for delivery.

http://www.nationalpitching.net/sampleart.asp?

The graphic does a great job of breaking down sequence and timing. This comes from breaking down hundreds of top pitchers from MLB to youth leagues, including Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, and others.

From my experience with my son, and coaching other teenage players; striving to develop a smooth delivery that follows the NPA model, and timeline, has produced success for kids with a wide range of different genetic throwing signatures.

On the "pushing off" front ... Coach House taught my son:

-- To dip/bend his knees at set-up, so that his head would stay on a straight line to home plate through his delivery (no unnecessary north-south movement of the head) -- keeping his eyes on line to the target.

-- To begin forward momentum by getting his hip moving forward as his lead leg is coming up, and keeping his head over his belly button as his center of gravity moves down the hill.

-- As he reaches footstrike, and continues to track his body forward over his lead knee, the posting foot drags away from the rubber (MLB dragline 18"-24") ... my southpaw has a drag line of about 18" most days. This gives the illusion that he is "pushing off" although there is no pushing involved. It is the Center of Gravity moving forward from the initial movement, aided by gravity.

-- A terific finesse point on the drag line that has really paid dividends in consistency of delivery and control, is starting with the posting foot at a point on the rubber where the drag line ends right on the line where the middle of the rubber splits the middle of home plate when the toe finally leaves the ground. This is different for every kid; and can vary by the mound, and how the kids is throwing that day.

Many of you may have seen this model before, but I thought I'd add it to the conversation.
cap-n

I do noy beleive my explanation will do anything for anyone unless they see it for themselves by watching tape and then getting the FEEL for it.

southpaw-dad

It is one thing to say to do something its another to say HOW to do it. For example when someone says to keep the head over the belly button as the center of gravity moves down the mound; there are a number of ways to accomplish that; but only one way that gives the pitcher power.

Saying that makes the pitcher think he has to do something else to hold his head (weight) back. I beleive it is done with the legs and when the legs are correct the pitcher need not even think about keping his head over his belly button because it occurs naturally. The bend in the posting knee as the lead leg drops gets the hip out front and keeps the head back over the belly button naturally.


The posting leg is already extended at foot plant and therefore it is not possible to push anymore once footplant occurs; so, the posting leg foot can only be pulled off the rubber. All of the pushing happens before foot plant.
Jwest -- I'm not sure if I'm fully following you. As I've followed this thread, at times I have been lost in the depth of detail that has gone back and forth on breaking down the delivery. I got hopelessly lost in the discussion of hip/butt/leg flex, that rotated somewhere. I think I pulled a synapse on some of it Smile.

One man's opinion ... As students of the game, I think we can all over analyze things a bit. I recall last spring watching my son's HS team struggle more and more at the plate as they tried to internalize the 26 steps of hitting they were being taught.

Personally, I don't believe there is only one right way for a Pitcher to deliver a baseball. I embrace the House/NPA model because it is just that -- a model -- that says that there are proven steps/stages of the delivery; with certain things being achieved at each step; but that each Pitcher will execute these somewhat differently based upon their unique genetic signature.

I really like the fact that it is the product of a wealth of research, much of which I have reviewed; and that my brain, and my old left shoulder, tells me is sound. And I have seen first-hand how the simple sequence and timing has worked for ALL of the young pitchers I have worked with.

I cannot do either Coach House or the NPA justice in a few paragraphs. You may have already done this, but I would refer you to the NPA web site, and their Online Course. It will cost you $25 and about 2 hours of your time; but it does a terrific job of presenting the what's, why's and how's of the NPA Bio-Mechanical model.

It is obvious that you and the others who have contributed to this discussion are serious students of the art of pitching. Many of you have more time in grade than I for certain. I would be most interested in your thoughts if you take a look.
Bobblehead- Tom House and Dr. Andrews have a working relationship. The fact that he receives an award from a guy he works with is really inconsequential. The ironic thing is that Ryan NEVER looked like a House guy when he made those videos with him. Heck, Mitch "wild thing" Williams was one of the guys who was in his early videos. Please don't tell me that guy was a tall and fall guy!

Tom did not have an emphasis on lower body at that point. He flat out stated that he was not caught up in velocity. That was because he himself was a left handed control guy. Guess what- he's changed in the last couple years and come around to putting much more of an emphasis on leg drive just like the top instructors in the country have been doing for a long time.
I would also recommend the Louisville slugger book "All you need to know about pitching".
This book shows total sequential pitching mechanics of several MLB pitchers. It is a complete book that gives some great incite into each pitcher, food plans, weight training etc. It is pitcher specific and deals with starters, closers and middle relief.
I'm not sure I have the title right but it is easy to find on the web.
Ncball House doesn't promote tall and fall as the only way to pitch. He also talked about drop and drive in an attempt to understand the different styles.
In my opinion if you if you are set against House you will never change your mind. So you are suggesting that Dr Andrews is in some conspiracy with House and would be compromised just to hand out his award. Maybe he paid him.
Bobble- I'm not against Tom. I know him personally. Talked to he and another staff member at USC about one of my pitchers last month and I've been to his center a couple times. I'm telling you that he places a much bigger emphasis on leg drive these days. He is much closer to the Ron Wolforths and Brent Stroms (who was an NPA guy when I visited) of the world. He evolved in his teaching.

Regarding the Andrews award, Dr. Andrews uses the motion capture technology software that Tom helped create with a company called Vicon. They work together! My point is that I'm guessing Tom had an inside edge over guys that don't have a working relationship. Would you agree?
I would agree in the sense that Andrews had a relationship because he believed in House's approach. He applied computer technology to the pitching motion and that showed no appreciable emphasis on push off. There is leg drive as you get out over the stride leg.
The original point was that instructors do no teach pushing off. Cap even stated he doesn't teach pushing off and gave a cursory explanation which I agreed with. It messes up the smooth flow of the delivery.
bobble- Fair enough. I personally don't use the term "push off" or "drop and drive" as I feel you do need to stay connected to the rubber as long as as possible as you drive down the hill. I certainly don't want a guy dipping or dropping down either as you will throw a flatter ball. I just feel that it's crucial to throw with "intent" of exploding and drive down the hill using proper ground force.
I would love to hear your perspectives on something that I think ties into the discussion here ...

In 2006-2007 the NPA conducted and published a Velocity Study. The big take-away for me from this was that 80% of Velocity is generated through rotational force/movement, and 20% from linear force/movement. That means that a Pitcher throwing 90mph is generating approx. 72 mph from his rotational power, and 18 mph from his linear movement.

When I was young (and we only had 13 states in the Union), it was all about strong legs. We ran, and ran, and ran some more. We worked some on core, but not with great emphasis.

The study results certainly make sense, and it seems to me that the keys to optimizing velocity (and control for that matter) are:

-- Develop strong legs to serve as a strong and powerful foundation; that allows the Pitcher to get down the hill, support his extended body, and be the powerful anchor against which the torso rotates without loss of power ... and to repeat this 80+ times per game.

-- Develop a strong/flexible core that allows the Pitcher to hold the greatest possible hip and shoulder separation before firing the shoulders & arm; and to be able to travel down the mound in a fluid, stacked position ... and to repeat this 80+ times per game.

-- To develop mechanics that allow the pitcher to move in a fluid and efficient manner directly towards home plate (without undue or herky-jerky movements). Wasted motion means to lose energy/power, like water draining from holes in a funnel.

-- To develop arm, shoulder & backside shoulder strength (with flexibility) to allow the Pitcher to transfer as much power as possible from the body to and through the baseball ... and repeat it 80+ times a game.

Only focussing on the physical side here, it seems to me that a Pitcher needs to put all of these elements together in order to achieve optimum performance. To ignore one is to shorten one leg of the stool.

Is this what you guys have been saying? If not, what do you think of this premise?
It sums up what I have been taught and believe. I do believe that there will always be herky jerky guys who throw hard and defy what I believe is the best way to deliver an accurate, hard pitch.
A strong lower body is essential to maintain velocity over an extended outing. I have seen some pretty scrawny guys who throw hard and can pitch a complete game without any noticeable decrees in velocity and effectiveness.
One of the comments most scouts make is about effortless motion which is a desirable thing considering longevity. It was one of the criticisms of Linsecum.
southpaw- Great post. It's interesting what the definition of "core" entails. I completely agree regarding the rotational and linear. Very similar to hitting. I don't like to get caught up in "fluid and efficient". I want explosive and efficient. You have to have intent to throw hard. That doesn't mean your mechanics should suffer.

My lower body emphasis is turning the back foot/ankle in which turns the knee in. This created a direct path and powerful drive line to home. Then it's about proper sequencing in the kinetic chain. Works with the separation of hips and shoulders.

We talk about staying connected. Is it pushing? I think so. Is it pushing "off"? No, because you become disconnected and leak energy from lack of ground force much like a pitcher leaking energy if they land on a soft front side and their front leg doesn't firm up in to a forced coupling.
NC -- I'm with you on the explosiveness and the intent to throw hard. In my mind and experience, this is part mental, and part physical.

The mental is the "intent" as you say. You have to want to throw hard (or hit hard) ... while hitting the right spot. On the physical side, I have long believed this is best achieved through simple, coordinated, fluid, movements -- executed in optimum alignment -- long before I ever heard of a kinetic chain .

Finesse in movement, delivered with power and authority.

I learned this more from my Rugby career than my Baseball career. It was on the Rugby pitch that I learned how to best deliver power from your toes to your nose, for the purpose of moving (or stopping) things intent on going the other direction. Wasted, or un-synchronized movements leak energy/power, and can leave parts vulnerable to breaking. Unfortunately, delivering power with absolute efficiency can also lead to breaking things Smile.

When Coach House challenged my son to get to footstrike within 1 seocnd of first forward movement, he became more explosive. At the same time, he emphasized keeping the mechanics fluid. The result has been repeatable efficiency & effectiveness.

It is funny that you make the connection between hitting & pitching. We were just having this conversation yesterday with my son's hitting instructor (MLB Scout & Rookie Ball Manager); that a hitter's loading & firing is similar to a pitcher's delayed hip and shoulder rotation. Both movements "wind the rubber band".

It also ties into the work the NPA has done with the Titlist Performance Institue. Rotational power, through an efficient motion, accentuated by proper tempo, delivers optimum power to and through the ball ... in both throwing and hitting.

Here's another stray thought ... my son is doing some strength and conditioning work with a football & track coach who is working him with some defensive backs. They need to develop the same powerful legs and, strong flexible core that Pitchers and Hitters require. Think about it ...

Thanks to all for the great thoughts.
quote:
Originally posted by jwest:
Gravity pulls straight down you need some other force to directionalize even a fall.

Ryan starts towards the plate from his step back. Even during his "sit/flex" there is backward push towards second base on his posting leg foot. Without it he would go straight down. Gravity.


If I place a ball on an incline, sure enough, it will roll down to the bottom and probably in close to a straight line. So..in this example...what forces are at work?
Last edited by pro97
There is no doubt that achieving sound pitching mechanics is necessary and provides several good advantages for a pitcher. However...all this talk about how to find the perfect pitching guy who has the perfect mechanical approach...newsflash...it's not going to happen. Yes...you need to work feverishly on your mechanics to eliminate as many ineffeciencies as possible, which should lead to better velocity, less proneness to injury...and so on and so on. Pitchers should be spending just as much time learning how to compete and how to win and how to read hitters and how to sequence pitches...those and many more are the keys to real success as a pitcher. Work hard on your mechanics...but if the baseball community keeps hounding kids to chase the perfect delivery so they can maybe get a couple more MPH's and the kids never spend adequate time developing things such as learning how to really compete and to be a student of the game...they won't be half the pitchers they could be.
Last edited by pro97
One of the topics that always bothers me is "How do I max velocity ?".
Getting a comfortable delivery and letting yourself mature is the most important thing when starting out. Do a proper strength gaining program and work at improving movement to the plate with a smooth finish. As you mature and develop your rhythm the velocity will max to your ability. The goal is to remain healthy long enough to achieve your max potential.
I have had this discussion with parents here who pushed velo at a young age and I can't think of 1 pitcher that is still pitching or at least hasn't suffered severe surgeries.

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